"Woke" culture

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, SereneHome said:

.I have picked a profession where I could always find a job. .. I also knew that I would never file any kind of law suits. I probably wouldn't have even filed a complaint. Just would get another job. Bc at the end of the day - I cared only about myself and how it would affect my own life.

... and leave the next woman (who may not be so privileged to simply go find another job) vulnerable to a harassing coworker...

No woman should have to quit her job because her colleagues can't behave professionally. They should be the ones who have to go. And as long as that not happening, we'll have the topic of toxic masculinity to deal with the OP bemoaned.

 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

... and leave the next woman (who may not be so privileged to simply go find another job) vulnerable to a harassing coworker...

No woman should have to quit her job because her colleagues can't behave professionally. They should be the ones who have to go. And as long as that not happening, we'll have the topic of toxic masculinity to deal with the OP bemoaned.

Yep. Exactly. 

When I had this issue as a grad student, I decided not to make waves. But it was ultimately a selfish decision. 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, SereneHome said:

I only read OP, so if there were further details, I didn't see it.

In subsequent posts, the OP has said that the coworker touched her DD on the waist while they were alone in a hallway, and he also makes derogatory comments about women in front of other coworkers. She also said that there are multiple reasons why her daughter wants to see a therapist, it's not just because of the behavior of this coworker. The daughter just does not feel comfortable being open and vulnerable with a male therapist, especially under the current circumstances, which I think is completely understandable. I would feel exactly the same way. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

In subsequent posts, the OP has said that the coworker touched her DD on the waist while they were alone in a hallway, and he also makes derogatory comments about women in front of other coworkers. She also said that there are multiple reasons why her daughter wants to see a therapist, it's not just because of the behavior of this coworker. The daughter just does not feel comfortable being open and vulnerable with a male therapist, especially under the current circumstances, which I think is completely understandable. I would feel exactly the same way. 

I'm a mathematician. I've worked in very male environments ALL MY LIFE. I have lots of male friends. I was the only girl on my IMO team. I was one of 3 girls in my Ph.D class of 16 or so. 

...there's no way I'd want to talk to a male therapist about this. No way. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, kand said:

Jury is out for me on that as well. I thought being a stable, loving family would ward off the bad stuff, but it hasn't worked out that way.

Nothing wards off the bad stuff. Some people just have bad luck... but a stable family is still the best you can do, you know? 

[bolt.]

I find the false opposition between sensitivity and resilience an interesting cultural narrative.

What I mean is that it's natural to see someone: "getting upset" / "having a cry" / "breaking down" / "needing a therapist" -- as a signifier-in-advance that they can't/won't capably handle a problem.

While I recognize the narrative and it seems sensible, I'm forced to notice that (a) in real life, it's not usually true, and (b) it's not actually sound logic.

When thinking logically: what someone does between an unfortunate event and the point in time when they decide what do do about it isn't a relevant factor in how well they handle the problem. They can sit in stony silence, have a cry, call a friend, watch Netflix, or go bungee jumping. As long as each of those things takes a reasonable amount of time, *which* thing they did 'in the meantime' isn't terribly relevant to the effectiveness of their eventual handling of the problem. And, if perhaps some 'meantime activities' are more helpful than others, there is an argument to be made that choosing to process all of your emotions (and get through them) would be among the more helpful and stable choices. (And that seeing a therapist would be one of the wisest and most effective choices in the long term.)

In real life: lots of resilient people take the time for a good cry before, during, or after a hard thing. Yes, including people who have stormed the beaches of Normandy, who walked 5 miles to school in the snow, people who have had to remove their hats to feed their families, and people who have had to protect themselves from workplace groping in past generations. Most of the strongest people you know: the ones who have done hard things and come out actually okay probably cried or vented as much as they needed to. Then they got up, dried their face, and did what needed to be done. A person can do both things... and the strongest people usually do.

In short: The ability to keep your face stony and your words level during hard times is not actually a predictor of good problem solving. Nor is the choice to have a cry or reveal your upset to friends and family actually a predictor of weak problem solving. Actual resilience involves capably passing through your own emotions. The ability to keep up a good front is not a characteristic of real resilience.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, bolt. said:

Actual resilience involves capably passing through your own emotions. The ability to keep up a good front is not a characteristic of real resilience.

That's an excellent way to put it. It's knowing how to work with yourself to get you through to the other side, not pretending everything is OK. 

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

Yeah, it’s laughable if you knew how we work with our teens. We talk about this kind of stuff all the time but they don’t always listen. Then, they wander in stupefied with some revelation or other that we’ve discussed over dinner numerous times. Yes, it’s funny. Laugh or cry, laugh or cry. DD literally came to confront me and declared she had a bone to pick. It still makes me chuckle. This isn’t a kid who’s afraid to ask questions or intimidated about approaching us.

I have one of those kids. She can be so oblivious to so many things and the only way that she learns that certain things are worth paying attention to is to end up in a situation like you described.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

I have one of those kids. She can be so oblivious to so many things and the only way that she learns that certain things are worth paying attention to is to end up in a situation like you described.

You’ve pegged the situation well!

[Corraleno]

5 hours ago, Home'scool said:

Believe me, I immediately said to her "If you don't feel safe in my home then please, pack up and leave!" She stopped saying she didn't feel safe after that.

So do you feel like you "won" this interaction? Do you think the reason she "stopped saying" it is because she agrees with you that she was totally wrong and you are right, or do you think that reacting with anger and telling her to get out if she doesn't like it might have actually reinforced her belief that you are not a safe person to whom she can express her feelings? If your goal was to make her stop expressing feelings you don't like, you seem to have succeeded. It may have come at a bigger cost than you realize, though.

[*****]

I know I am a little late at reading this thread, but back to the original post: I am glad to learn that this 'Woke' idea must be a thing.  I was beginning to think it was just my daughters. Both my 20 something daughters recently have strong opinions as well, and I was beginning to wonder if it had been a good idea to send them to university.  Yes, it is fine that they have opinions, but so do I, and it is ok to disagree with one another.  Let's agree to disagree, but don't make me feel like I am not allowed to have a different opinion, or that mine is wrong.  

As far as the 'feeling safe'.  I recently returned to teaching in public school after raising my family for 20 years. Apparently now, once a year, students are given a safety questionnaire, asking them to rate how safe they feel on the bus, playground, in each class, etc.  Maybe the DD's idea of safety has grown from something such as this from school (we didn't ask about safety 20 years ago when I taught). 

[prairiewindmomma]

1 minute ago, ***** said:

" I was beginning to wonder if it had been a good idea to send them to university."  

What do you mean by this? You may've preferred to forbid them from attending college and leave them with only a high school diploma because that would mean that they would have remained more ______________?

(IE--Do you literally mean this? You would prefer your children to have remained with a high school diploma? Do you think that attending college has tainted them somehow? What state of alteration do you find disagreeable?)

[prairiewindmomma]

Is anyone else on this thread seeing a common theme of, "My children don't think about things the same way that I do and therefore they are (insert negatively connotated adjective here--whiny/lazy/weak/corrupted)".

I find this aspect of the conversation kind of disturbing.  

It would be as if I had to agree with the 80-something in my life that schools should have remained segregated.  Or with the 60-something in my life that women belong primarily in the home, raising children, rather than working. Shouldn't we allow for some progression in social thought?  The 80s lady in my life doesn't see herself as being racist but when I asked her if couples should be allow to intermarry she said no, nor should adoption happen cross-ethnically.  Is it possible that there is some degree of internal blindness within ourselves? 

 

[regentrude]

16 minutes ago, ***** said:

  Yes, it is fine that they have opinions, but so do I, and it is ok to disagree with one another.  Let's agree to disagree, but don't make me feel like I am not allowed to have a different opinion, or that mine is wrong.  

So 20-somethings cannot possibly be right sometimes and their parents wrong? 
Why should the parent have the monopoly on being right?
The idea that everything now is just an "opinion" and that all opinions are created equal is strange to me. 

Edited November 6, 2020 by regentrude

[*****]

prariewindmomma: it's just an expression, please don't take my comment too far. I can't think of exact examples, but the thought occurred to me before when they disagreed with me.  Don't get riled up about what I said, everyone. Or if I do give an example that was about a topic about a person of color, or was gay, etc., then I would be opening up a can of worms, which I am not trying to do here.  I am so careful to watch my words, and it took me so long to write the above comment...I just wanted to give an example, of 'yeah, I hear you on this topic'.

[fairfarmhand]

Just now, prairiewindmomma said:

Is anyone else on this thread seeing a common theme of, "My children don't think about things the same way that I do and therefore they are (insert negatively connotated adjective here--whiny/lazy/weak/corrupted)".

I find this aspect of the conversation kind of disturbing.  

It would be as if I had to agree with the 80-something in my life that schools should have remained segregated.  Or with the 60-something in my life that women belong primarily in the home, raising children, rather than working. Shouldn't we allow for some progression in social thought?  The 80s lady in my life doesn't see herself as being racist but when I asked her if couples should be allow to intermarry she said no, nor should adoption happen cross-ethnically.  Is it possible that there is some degree of internal blindness within ourselves? 

 

I dont think that's what the OP is meaning at all. As well as some of the other parents. It's the idea that is going around (often in young adults, but there are people in many age groups doing this) that NO DISAGREEMENT is permitted and if one does not agree (even politely and kindly) that it is the equivalent of an attack, keeping the original person from "feeling safe." The "woke" person (using the OP's terminology) can't manage any disagreement at all, regardless of whether it is gentle and kind without having an emotional reaction. 

[Moonhawk]

OOC to those who feel like their adult children not only disagree with them, but that their children are disagreeable about this:

1) do your conversations include sources from either side?

2) have you actually considered changing your position during a conversation, or was it more just explaining/defending your position?

3) have you listened to reasons for their position, or is it only the end conclusion that they share?

4) in your household while children were growing up, did you regularly give reasons/sources for topics/values/positions (for example, political or economic stances) or just a general theory of your position?

5) do you feel offended that a child not only disagrees with you, but views you differently, because of a disagreement that may come down to values?

[SereneHome]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I try to prepare my kids, too. But honestly, I'm not sure that the best preparation isn't simply having a stable home life and reserves of strengths that carry you forward inside you. They've made the most difference for my ability to get through things. 

I know people always say that.... And I am pretty sure we are stable loving family and yet, sometimes I look at my kids and the things that gets them all upset and I start to wonder if they will be able to handle anything.... We shall see....

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

The 80s lady in my life doesn't see herself as being racist but when I asked her if couples should be allow to intermarry she said no, nor should adoption happen cross-ethnically.  Is it possible that there is some degree of internal blindness within ourselves? 

My mom wouldn't go as far as to make it illegal, but she definitely thought any kind of interracial mixing was bad. I would like to think that my thoughts on this are at least as valid as hers 😉 . 

[SereneHome]

1 hour ago, kand said:

Not much. My parents are really bad at dealing with any conflict with their grown kids. It basically can't be done in a reasonable way. My dad loses his temper and explodes and my mom cries. They were actually good parents and I consider myself to have had a good, stable upbringing, but this aspect is really dysfunctional. We didn't allow the kids to go spend the night there again for a very long time after that, though.

I totally agree with this, and hopefully that will be helpful. I think when my older kids were young, I didn't realize they were going to be fragile when they got older; there was no sign that told me that, so I didn't specifically work on it. It does impact how I do things with my younger kids.

Jury is out for me on that as well. I thought being a stable, loving family would ward off the bad stuff, but it hasn't worked out that way. OTOH, my kids come to me and lean heavily on me when they do have troubles, so at least I'm glad they know they have that support. Maybe it's been too cushy and they'd be stronger if they didn't have me to lean on? I just don't know anymore.

That's my goal and dream is as well.

It is such such hard balance to figure out, isn't it?? Even now, when they are all home and safe and their problems are well....not that problematic...there is a constant debate going on in my head - do I get involved, do I help, do I let them figure out, do I provide guidance....

I can't even imagine what will happen when they hit real world, bc of course, the first instinct is to help and protect, but that's not always the best choice.

Edited November 6, 2020 by SereneHome

[Not_a_Number]

28 minutes ago, ***** said:

Apparently now, once a year, students are given a safety questionnaire, asking them to rate how safe they feel on the bus, playground, in each class, etc.  Maybe the DD's idea of safety has grown from something such as this from school (we didn't ask about safety 20 years ago when I taught).

No, they didn't talk about safety many years ago. This is probably part of why DH says he emphatically did NOT feel safe at school. Adults looked away from violence on the playground, because "boys will be boys." 

And he went to a good school and wasn't an unpopular kid. (And he stood up for himself.) 

[fairfarmhand]

28 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

OOC to those who feel like their adult children not only disagree with them, but that their children are disagreeable about this:

1) do your conversations include sources from either side?

2) have you actually considered changing your position during a conversation, or was it more just explaining/defending your position?

3) have you listened to reasons for their position, or is it only the end conclusion that they share?

4) in your household while children were growing up, did you regularly give reasons/sources for topics/values/positions (for example, political or economic stances) or just a general theory of your position?

5) do you feel offended that a child not only disagrees with you, but views you differently, because of a disagreement that may come down to values?

 

Deleted

Some of y'all act like the parents are just shutting down discussion because their kids are different. In reality it's sometimes the case that the kids are shutting down the discussion because they don't want to hear anything that interferes with their version of truth.

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by fairfarmhand

[Not_a_Number]

15 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

The "woke" person (using the OP's terminology) can't manage any disagreement at all, regardless of whether it is gentle and kind without having an emotional reaction. 

To be fair, "gentle and kind" doesn't always mean you can't offend someone. If someone very gently told me that there should be quotas on Jews in universities (hey, my parents went to school in precisely that environment!), I'd be upset however kind they were. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

@fairfarmhand: I'd guess that the example with college tuition is simply not amenable to reason. She sees other people who have something she don't, and it stings. So it's not something one can really talk about, since it affects her life so much. 

[fairfarmhand]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

To be fair, "gentle and kind" doesn't always mean you can't offend someone. If someone very gently told me that there should be quotas on Jews in universities (hey, my parents went to school in precisely that environment!), I'd be upset however kind they were. 

 

True. Mostly I'm referring to people with just differing viewpoints on things that are not necessarily morally wrong. Just different. 

[SereneHome]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

... and leave the next woman (who may not be so privileged to simply go find another job) vulnerable to a harassing coworker...

No woman should have to quit her job because her colleagues can't behave professionally. They should be the ones who have to go. And as long as that not happening, we'll have the topic of toxic masculinity to deal with the OP bemoaned.

 

I have never actually dealt with the situation where I had to quit my job bc of any kind of harassment so my opinion is based on how I *think* I would handle it.

Yes, in theory, what you are saying sounds great and honorable and I am sure there are women who filed complaints for no other reason than not to have anyone else going through ordeals. In reality, I think that does very little, except makes the accuser having to spend her time and emotional and mental energy to deal with a lot of BS.

Again, I haven't been in corporate world for about 10 yrs so things might have changed, but from my experience back then - neither complaints to HR or law suits ever did much. ESPECIALLY complaints to HR.

[Pen]

20 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

I dont think that's what the OP is meaning at all. As well as some of the other parents. It's the idea that is going around (often in young adults, but there are people in many age groups doing this) that NO DISAGREEMENT is permitted and if one does not agree (even politely and kindly) that it is the equivalent of an attack, keeping the original person from "feeling safe." The "woke" person (using the OP's terminology) can't manage any disagreement at all, regardless of whether it is gentle and kind without having an emotional reaction. 

 

This.

And also the last couple of paragraphs from the post you don’t want quoted.

 

[bolt.]

18 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

The "woke" person (using the OP's terminology) can't manage any disagreement at all, regardless of whether it is gentle and kind without having an emotional reaction.

Is it possible that there aren't many (any?) people who are completely void of all emotional reactions during a disagreement? Is it possible that it might just be the social convention of hiding such reactions that has changed?

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Again, I haven't been in corporate world for about 10 yrs so things might have changed, but from my experience back then - neither complaints to HR or law suits ever did much. ESPECIALLY complaints to HR.

I think you might find that this culture has changed a lot in the last decade. There is less tolerance for this behavior. In the academic world, it can get you fired rather quickly, even if tenured.

Edited November 6, 2020 by regentrude

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

True. Mostly I'm referring to people with just differing viewpoints on things that are not necessarily morally wrong. Just different. 

I think people wind up having very varying stances on what is and what isn't morally wrong, though. 

I've definitely been in situations where I felt like people were demanding I don't see shades of gray when I do, so I empathize with that. 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[fairfarmhand]

1 minute ago, bolt. said:

Is it possible that there aren't many (any?) people who are completely void of all emotional reactions during a disagreement? Is it possible that it might just be the social convention of hiding such reactions that has changed?

I didn't say that clearly. I don't mean that one can't have an emotional reaction. What I mean is that the emotional reaction is so over the top that discussion must stop.

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

In reality, I think that does very little, except makes the accuser having to spend her time and emotional and mental energy to deal with a lot of BS.

I think it's one of these all or nothing things. If you have a paper trail, eventually, that can add up to firing. But one complaint often doesn't do, and you never do know when it will work. 

[SereneHome]

9 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I think you might find that this culture has changed a lot in the last decade. There is less tolerance for this behavior. In the academic world, it can get you fired rather quickly, even if tenured.

That's great to hear. It would be very interesting to know what made the biggest difference.

[GoodGrief3]

1 hour ago, SereneHome said:

I know people always say that.... And I am pretty sure we are stable loving family and yet, sometimes I look at my kids and the things that gets them all upset and I start to wonder if they will be able to handle anything.... We shall see....

The realities of life are quite eye opening. I remember being impressed with my parenting awesomeness with my kids were young. Learned in the preteen/teen/young adult years that there was so much that was completely out of my control, and that even my well-intentioned acts often played out in unexpected ways. I think there are things I would do differently, maybe. But even then. not sure the outcomes would be improved. Life is a long game of Whack a Mole.

I don't know if I think kids are less resilient now. We do have more creature comforts and a lot less worry about fulfilling actual physical needs. Our brains are still adapting to the reality of less physical danger, which may be leading to increased anxiety.

[Corraleno]

5 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Okay, here's a for instance from my own home about three years ago.

To be fair, I see plenty of adults post the exact same sentiments in various forums and FB groups, and even occasionally right here in the hive. The perceived unfairness of being stuck in the financial "donut hole" is a perennial topic on College Confidential, so I don't think kids who lose out because of those policies should be expected not to complain about it when millions of adults are saying the exact same things. IMO the best way to deal with it is to acknowledge the kid's feelings and express sympathy: "Yes, access to college is terribly unfair in this country for a whole lot of reasons, and I'm sorry you aren't able to have the same on-campus experience that many other students do, but unfortunately that's pretty much how life works. There will always be ways in which other people are far worse off than you, and ways in which others are much better off. But it does no good to focus exclusively on the ways in which you're "deprived" while ignoring all the ways in which your life is easier than so many others."

Telling someone who feels hurt or upset about something that their feelings are invalid and wrong and they shouldn't have them, never works well. Often all they really want is just to feel heard, and arguing about the all reasons they are "wrong" has exactly the opposite effect.

[LMD]

I'm sorry Homes'cool, after everything you've been through with your girls, to have them say your home feels 'unsafe' over a polite disagreement must have been such a kick in the teeth. Where is the goodwill and respect towards one's own mother? I'm also sorry your thread turned into this.

[Amy Gen]

3 minutes ago, GoodGrief3 said:

The realities of life are quite eye opening. I remember being impressed with my parenting awesomeness with my kids were young. Learned in the preteen/teen/young adult years that there was so much that was completely out of my control, and that even my well-intentioned acts often played out in unexpected ways. I think there are things I would do differently, maybe. But even then. not sure the outcomes would be improved. Life is a long game of Whack a Mole.

I don't know if I think kids are less resilient now. We do have more creature comforts and a lot less worry about fulfilling actual physical needs. Our brains are still adapting to the reality of less physical danger, which may be leading to increased anxiety.

Quoted for truth. 
 

This has been my experience, word for word. 

[fairfarmhand]

 

I think many people (not just young people) struggle with the idea that one can disagree without attacking, one can be supportive of someone we love without agreeing with every point of what they're saying. 

Edited November 6, 2020 by fairfarmhand

[fairfarmhand]

Deleted. The board is really being wonky.

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by fairfarmhand

[TravelingChris]

6 hours ago, regentrude said:

"Take your f*ing hands off me!" 

Better?

That would be more my style

[*****]

45 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

No, they didn't talk about safety many years ago.

After all the school shootings and bullying, I totally get the need to talk about safety.  Just a thought about maybe why OP's DD or other kids are getting the idea about 'feeling safe'.     

[Moonhawk]

51 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

 

Deleted

Some of y'all act like the parents are just shutting down discussion because their kids are different. In reality it's sometimes the case that the kids are shutting down the discussion because they don't want to hear anything that interferes with their version of truth.

 

I appreciate you answering my questions! I wasn't doing it out of assumption of parents-never-take-discussion, rather making sure I don't start assuming anything.

I grew up in a very authoritative household and I am still not allowed to disagree about anything with my parents more important than wall colors. And even wall colors, my mom hung up on me when I told her I chose yellow for a bedroom, lol. But I assume that I am from an outlier situation (at least, for the type of parents on this board) and I wanted to know what type of family culture you had tried to foster re: data and supporting positions, and see if that had any impact on these feelings in later disagreements as children grew up and formed differing opinions. I appreciate your example.

I do think that younger, more immature brains have trouble hearing disagreement on heartfelt positions because they are still forming and may be still going through chemical phases (reading Sapolsky right now and trying to fit it into my framework of how these things all work together). But I know that rigidity later in life happens as well; that's why the 18-49 demographic in TVland is so sought after, because the older you get the less chance you'll change your viewing habits.

It could very well be that just as young adults start to form their opinions and wanting to express them in their brand new world + inability to regulate the emotional side fully * parental rigidity setting in and general adult tiredness of discussing things over and over again = hard parent-child years during early adulthood.

 

[MercyA]

5 hours ago, SereneHome said:

So there is no way in hell would I be getting traumatized to need therapy for someone touching me. I would either slap their hand away, if it's a single occurrence (and I've had that happened) or file a formal complaint for anything other than one time deal.

Yes, been there, done that...

5 hours ago, Happy2BaMom said:

Which is exactly why your chances of being selected as a target (it's not random, you know) are slim-to-none. By the time a woman is old enough to be married and have three kids with work experience, the predators aren't interested.

I was in my mid-40's. 

Edited November 6, 2020 by MercyA

[Meriwether]

7 hours ago, EKS said:

If you're interested in the origins of the movement, I highly recommend the book Cynical Theories.  

I purchased this book after you mentioned it in a recent thread. I haven't made it very far into it yet, since some of the language is new to me and I don't have much quiet time to read anymore. It is thought provoking. I'm interested to see if the two issues I have seen are mentioned.

[frogger]

I simply don't have time to read 5 pages. I'm sorry but I wanted to give a different perspective.

 

Honestly, my parents (all 6 of them including in laws and step-parents) get frustrated with me more than my kids. They are all very very conservative (and I'm conservative/libertarian compared to most people on this board) but they get so angry and frustrated with me when I argue with them. The difference of course, is they would never ask for a safe space but they get extremely sensitive when I point out holes or hypocrisies. Sometimes I think they get more mad the nicer I'm being because it's more about being frustrated with the argument rather than not feeling safe. Though my step mother finally just said out right she can't argue with me but of course, the crazy email she forwarded about Bill Gates is still right. Sigh

Honestly, when that happens we work on relationship first and put the disagreements away. We can pick up a discussion down the road IF we still have a good relationship but the discussion will never be fruitful if there is no relationship to begin with. 

[Tanaqui]

8 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Yes, been there, done that...

I was in my mid-40's. 

Sure, I was angry and I felt violated. A jerk touched my boob twice without consent. But I'm not traumatized and don't need counseling. I can understand someone needing it if they were very young, or had past trauma, or if it was a very trusted and loved family member or friend, or something like that. But a random perv? Not going to waste more time or thought than necessary on that. 

 

Good for you, but you sound super unkind right now.

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Is anyone else on this thread seeing a common theme of, "My children don't think about things the same way that I do and therefore they are (insert negatively connotated adjective here--whiny/lazy/weak/corrupted)".

I find this aspect of the conversation kind of disturbing.  

It would be as if I had to agree with the 80-something in my life that schools should have remained segregated.  Or with the 60-something in my life that women belong primarily in the home, raising children, rather than working. Shouldn't we allow for some progression in social thought?  The 80s lady in my life doesn't see herself as being racist but when I asked her if couples should be allow to intermarry she said no, nor should adoption happen cross-ethnically.  Is it possible that there is some degree of internal blindness within ourselves? 

 

No.  Because both my oldest and youngest are convinced that climate change is super important.  But the 31yo isn't lecturing us or getting very mad that I use a straw, etc.  All the kids know we support various conservation measures, National and State Parks, recycle, etc.  But dd3 who is 23 seems to get offended if we don't believe as she does.

All 3 of our kids have at least one issue if not more that we agree on.  We don't say that because they believe differently they can't be around us.  And also dh and I don't agree in everything either.  When dd3 feels better, she actually isn't so extremely sensitive.  But she is more sensitive than her older sister and her sister us more sensitive than her brother.  

And as some others have said,  maturity helps make kids be more tolerant- at least we have had that experience.

[dirty ethel rackham]

33 minutes ago, ***** said:

After all the school shootings and bullying, I totally get the need to talk about safety.  Just a thought about maybe why OP's DD or other kids are getting the idea about 'feeling safe'.     

Feeling safe can have many meanings.  Feeling physically safe, mentally or emotionally safe.  This phrase brought up a memory ...

When my dad died, I was unable to cry in front of my siblings.  I was calm and collected in the hospital as he was dying.  I held my mom's hand, attended to my dad's physical comfort and was aware of everyone else's needs.  Later, after he had passed and we were all going back to our homes for the night, I got to my car and broke down crying.  But, as soon as I remembered that my siblings would be going to their cars and might see me, the tears dried up.  I cried with my husband that night, silently so that my sister and her husband who were staying at our home wouldn't hear.  I was dry-eyed throughout the whole funeral planning.  But, at the wake, my dear SIL gave me a hug and I broke down sobbing.  When I commented to my husband about it later, he said that he wasn't surprised because he knew I felt safe with SIL.  That is when it dawned on me that my siblings were not people I felt safe being showing my feelings.  I had learned at a young age that being vulnerable made me a target for teasing and belittling.  Most people would say it was all harmless sibling stuff, but as a kid who was bullied at school, home was not a safe haven from all of that.  I didn't learn to deal with hard things.  I learned to stuff them and put on a mask.  

Had my parents been empathetic, letting me have my feelings and then helping me put things into perspective and learn how to deal with them, I would have actually been more resilient rather than just pretending to be to avoid shame.  

[MercyA]

22 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Good for you, but you sound super unkind right now.

Really? Ouch. Thanks for letting me know. I'm sorry.

I did reply without reading the entire thread first. Maybe I shouldn't have done that. I'll go back and edit or delete.

Edited November 6, 2020 by MercyA

[MercyA]

@Dreamergal, I went back and edited my post. If two people said it was unkind, I trust that it was, and I apologize.

I did not mean that no one should need counseling for that sort of thing, just that I didn't. I agreed with several previous posters who said people are different and have different triggers and different needs.

I do think your experiences in your culture--for which I am very sorry--were radically different than anything I have experienced.

Edited November 6, 2020 by MercyA