Books or resources for difficult children?

[Slache]

We have personality disorders on both sides of the family and I have a child that is strongly leaning in that direction. We're talking lying, stealing, violence. This child has been this way since they were about 18 months old. I am a strong believer in discipline and I do correct the behavior, I am also a Christian and regularly have open discussions regarding sin and heart issues, but I fear I may be lacking knowledge that could be beneficial and would rather meet those needs now than later.

I can find a lot of resources for how to deal with your adult children, but this is a small person in my home who has many years left for us to guide them. Tell me what ya got.

Thank you.

[fairfarmhand]

How old? Actually, I'll PM you.

[MercyA]

I'm so sorry, Slache. Your search for information is wise. 

My child does not have these problems, but for other reasons I have read a little bit about the development of antisocial personality disorder. It seems that some children, particularly with these kinds of disorders, are punishment insensitive, and that escalating, harsh, and/or physical punishments in particular tend to make things worse. Things that tend to help are establishing close emotional bonds with your child, displaying consistent maternal warmth, rewarding positive behavior, and working on the development of empathy and executive functioning skills. [ETA: Obviously not suggesting that you are not already doing these things!]

You might try googling information on callous-unemotional traits in children, to see if the description fits your child and for ideas on parenting children with CU traits. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by MercyA

[Catwoman]

11 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I'm so sorry, Slache. Your search for information is wise. 

My child does not have these problems, but for other reasons I have read a little bit about the development of antisocial personality disorder. It seems that some children, particularly with these kinds of disorders, are punishment insensitive, and that escalating, harsh, and/or physical punishments in particular tend to make things worse. Things that tend to help are establishing close emotional bonds with your child, displaying consistent maternal warmth, rewarding positive behavior, and working on the development of empathy and executive functioning skills.  

You might try googling information on callous-unemotional traits in children, to see if the description fits your child and for ideas on parenting children with CU traits. 

 

I agree.

Slache, I don’t know what kind of disciplinary methods you use, but do you think there is a chance it might be backfiring on you? 

When you said that you are “a strong believer in discipline,” it worried me a little. 

I should add that I have no personal experience with this, as I was never a disciplinarian and I was very fortunate that my son was a well-behaved kid, but I knew a woman in our homeschool group who was very strict, and it seemed as though the more she punished her son, the worse his behavior became. 😞 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Catwoman

[kbutton]

I don't have any resources to recommend, but I think it's great you are sensitive to this when there is still a lot of time to deal with it. Hugs. 

[Slache]

48 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I'm sorry you're dealing with this.  

Can you give a sense of the context when it's happening?  Is it more impulsive, or more premeditated?

Both. Essentially, "I'm going to do what I want and don't care what the consequences are as long as they don't fall on me."

Doing what they want and lying about it is the big one. I cannot tell when someone is lying.

Demanding unrealistic things (I don't want anyone within 6 inches of me during the movie) but not respecting other's realistic expectations (I was sitting here first, you cannot have my seat).

18 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I'm so sorry, Slache. Your search for information is wise. 

My child does not have these problems, but for other reasons I have read a little bit about the development of antisocial personality disorder. It seems that some children, particularly with these kinds of disorders, are punishment insensitive, and that escalating, harsh, and/or physical punishments in particular tend to make things worse. Things that tend to help are establishing close emotional bonds with your child, displaying consistent maternal warmth, rewarding positive behavior, and working on the development of empathy and executive functioning skills. [ETA: Obviously not suggesting that you are not already doing these things!]

You might try googling information on callous-unemotional traits in children, to see if the description fits your child and for ideas on parenting children with CU traits. 

Yes, this is what I'm looking for.

8 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I agree.

Slache, I don’t know what kind of disciplinary methods you use, but do you think there is a chance it might be backfiring on you? 

When you said that you are “a strong believer in discipline,” it worried me a little. 

I should add that I have no personal experience with this, as I was never a disciplinarian and I was very fortunate that my son was a well-behaved kid, but I knew a woman in our homeschool group who was very strict, and it seemed as though the more she punished her son, the worse his behavior became. 😞 

The punishment is different depending on the situation. I definitely agree that it can backfire.

[Catwoman]

I’m so sorry you are dealing with this, Slache. It must be so frustrating for you, and I’m sure you are at your wit’s end. I’m giving this thread a bump so that hopefully more people who have experience with this kind of behavior will read it and be able to offer you some advice and suggest some helpful resources.

Sending you hugs and prayers!

[lovinmyboys]

Is the book The Explosive Child still recommended? Its methods seemed to work for my more difficult to raise child. 
 

I think it is wise that you have an eye out for signs of any atypical development, but I love what SWB says in her odd one out talks. She talks about how sneaking a cookie might really just be sneaking a cookie and we can’t let our fear that the child who steals a cookie now will turn into a bank robber later make us parent out of fear. 
 

For my son, very few expectations (the year he was 5 his rules were pretty much don’t hurt people, wear a seatbelt, and brush teeth), lots of supervision, and lots of relationship building activities seemed to help. I try really hard to not give my kids the opportunity to lie, but I have one who still does (not my hard kid and he actually has seemed to outgrow it lately). 
 

Lots of hugs! Some kids can be very hard!

Wow! Sorry..I am tired. Hopefully some of that made sense

Edited August 25, 2020 by lovinmyboys

[Terabith]

Seconding The Explosive Child.  There's a Ross Greene Plan B group on facebook, too.  I've also heard really good things about Transforming the Difficult Child:  The Nurtured Heart Approach. 

[Ausmumof3]

Have you screened for adhd autism etc?  Not saying that people with those disorders have antisocial disorder but sometimes in kids the symptoms can look similar.

I have no expertise in this area but fiction is supposed to be good for empathy?  Maybe more read alouds might help with developing the ability to see the other persons perspective on things.  And if the kid is old enough to do logic it might help with learning the inconsistencies between expectations for how they are treated versus how they are expecting to treat others.  

[Slache]

7 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I’m so sorry you are dealing with this, Slache. It must be so frustrating for you, and I’m sure you are at your wit’s end. I’m giving this thread a bump so that hopefully more people who have experience with this kind of behavior will read it and be able to offer you some advice and suggest some helpful resources.

Sending you hugs and prayers!

I'm not at my wit's end. I just think I've gotten to a point where things are going to be more difficult as my child ages, and I would prefer their life to be not quite that difficult.

6 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

Is the book The Explosive Child still recommended? Its methods seemed to work for my more difficult to raise child. 
 

I think it is wise that you have an eye out for signs of any atypical development, but I love what SWB says in her odd one out talks. She talks about how sneaking a cookie might really just be sneaking a cookie and we can’t let our fear that the child who steals a cookie now will turn into a bank robber later make us parent out of fear. 
 

For my son, very few expectations (the year he was 5 his rules were pretty much don’t hurt people, wear a seatbelt, and brush teeth), lots of supervision, and lots of relationship building activities seemed to help. I try really hard to not give my kids the opportunity to lie, but I have one who still does (not my hard kid and he actually has seemed to outgrow it lately). 
 

Lots of hugs! Some kids can be very hard!

Wow! Sorry..I am tired. Hopefully some of that made sense

I've had two people p.m. me and recommended that book!

I definitely agree that sometimes stealing a cookie is stealing a cookie, but we are experiencing multiple cookie thefts a day. Not to mention a lot of anger that I feel is unnecessary and I would like to work out rather than leaving them to work it out themselves.

1 minute ago, Terabith said:

Seconding The Explosive Child.  There's a Ross Greene Plan B group on facebook, too.  I've also heard really good things about Transforming the Difficult Child:  The Nurtured Heart Approach. 

Thank you!

1 minute ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Have you screened for adhd autism etc?  Not saying that people with those disorders have antisocial disorder but sometimes in kids the symptoms can look similar.

I have no expertise in this area but fiction is supposed to be good for empathy?  Maybe more read alouds might help with developing the ability to see the other persons perspective on things.  And if the kid is old enough to do logic it might help with learning the inconsistencies between expectations for how they are treated versus how they are expecting to treat others.  

No. Thank you for the ideas!

[lovinmyboys]

A couple more things I thought of:

Punishment did not work at all for my kid. It didn’t mean there weren’t consequences, but they were only directly related to the behavior-if you throw the blocks, the blocks get put away. Parenting without punishment was definitely a new way of thinking for me, but I am now pretty convinced that punishment does more harm then good. It took awhile for me to figure out how to handle some situations without punishing, but once I took punishment off the table, I found other ways to deal with the behaviors in the moment. 
 

For my ds, he really loves to draw and he often will draw his frustrations now. He came up with that on his own. I’m not sure how he would have reacted if I suggested it, but it works for him amazingly well. 
 

The other thing that works really well is acting out tricky behavior scenarios when he is nice and calm and in a good mood. So, we would act out what to do if someone sat too close to him or if he had to go somewhere and he didn’t want to, etc. After we acted it out we would eat a snack and then read a book or draw together (some of his favorite activities). Trying to teach better behavior in the moment doesn’t really work for my son. In the moment, I try to think of a win-win solution, then when he is calm we practice how to do better next time. 
 

 

[Slache]

5 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

A couple more things I thought of:

Punishment did not work at all for my kid. It didn’t mean there weren’t consequences, but they were only directly related to the behavior-if you throw the blocks, the blocks get put away. Parenting without punishment was definitely a new way of thinking for me, but I am now pretty convinced that punishment does more harm then good. It took awhile for me to figure out how to handle some situations without punishing, but once I took punishment off the table, I found other ways to deal with the behaviors in the moment. 
 

For my ds, he really loves to draw and he often will draw his frustrations now. He came up with that on his own. I’m not sure how he would have reacted if I suggested it, but it works for him amazingly well. 
 

The other thing that works really well is acting out tricky behavior scenarios when he is nice and calm and in a good mood. So, we would act out what to do if someone sat too close to him or if he had to go somewhere and he didn’t want to, etc. After we acted it out we would eat a snack and then read a book or draw together (some of his favorite activities). Trying to teach better behavior in the moment doesn’t really work for my son. In the moment, I try to think of a win-win solution, then when he is calm we practice how to do better next time. 
 

 

This is us. I should have said consequences. I do believe in punishments, but I do not use them frequently.

[Pen]

41 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Seconding The Explosive Child.  There's a Ross Greene Plan B group on facebook, too.  I've also heard really good things about Transforming the Difficult Child:  The Nurtured Heart Approach. 

 

Both of these.! 

 

[kiwik]

I recommend The Explosive Child too.  Even if you don't use it strictly it helps you frame things differently.  And also adding that it was my child who eventually (at 10) got an ASD diagnosis that had the problems.  The unreasonable expectations in a child who has not got his way hid whole life makes that a possibility.  Or he might just need a bit longer or a different approach.

[73349]

...

Edited October 2, 2020 by Carolina Wren

[Jaybee]

Another book that might be helpful is The Connected Child by Karen Purvis. It is written toward the adoption scenario, but I believe you would find it useful in your situation as well.

[Tanaqui]

I've run through several different options for saying this, and they all sound a little snotty, so I'm just going to say it and hope you know that I mean it in the best possible way:

If personality disorders run in your family, and you know it, have you gotten any sort of therapy for handling a. the reality of growing up with this in the background or b. the possibility that you're also prone to maladaptive thought patterns and behavior? Even just "fleas", as some people call them (as in "you grew up with dogs, and you got up with...")

I know that therapists who specialize in personality disorders are few and far between, and I also know I recommend therapy at the drop of a hat, but if you're concerned about this with your child it does seem like the first place to start is yourself.

[Innisfree]

On 8/24/2020 at 10:26 PM, Slache said:

Demanding unrealistic things (I don't want anyone within 6 inches of me during the movie) but not respecting other's realistic expectations (I was sitting here first, you cannot have my seat).

 

On 8/24/2020 at 10:26 PM, Slache said:

I'm going to do what I want and don't care what the consequences are as long as they don't fall on me."

For us, these ended up being part of the inflexible thinking of autism. Please do consider an evaluation. It doesn't necessarily look like you expect it to. Maybe that isn't the answer for you, but it's a question you can get answered, and could offer real help.

I'll also urge The Explosive Child. 

"Children do well when they can" should be engraved over every pediatrician's and school's doors.

And, many hugs. This is hard.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Innisfree

[lewelma]

I believe I'm 6th to recommend The Explosive Child!  Definitely helped me manage and teach my older boy.

[Slache]

35 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

I've run through several different options for saying this, and they all sound a little snotty, so I'm just going to say it and hope you know that I mean it in the best possible way:

If personality disorders run in your family, and you know it, have you gotten any sort of therapy for handling a. the reality of growing up with this in the background or b. the possibility that you're also prone to maladaptive thought patterns and behavior? Even just "fleas", as some people call them (as in "you grew up with dogs, and you got up with...")

I know that therapists who specialize in personality disorders are few and far between, and I also know I recommend therapy at the drop of a hat, but if you're concerned about this with your child it does seem like the first place to start is yourself.

Yes, this has been very important to me, and I have definitely worked on myself because of it.

That was very brave of you. 

25 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

For us, these ended up being part of the inflexible thinking of autism. Please do consider an evaluation. It doesn't necessarily look like you expect it to. Maybe that isn't the answer for you, but it's a question you can get answered, and could offer real help.

I'll also urge The Explosive Child. 

"Children do well when they can" should be engraved over every pediatrician's and school's doors.

And, many hugs. This is hard.

We have autism in the family and I'd like to have them evaluated but I need wait for instance. Right now I plan to read the book and work with that, but that is on the list.

[kbutton]

Chiming in to say that autism, ADHD, and anxiety are all potentially things to rule out also. Or may be comorbid. I didn't want to be the first to jump on the autism train, but I have a child with autism, and there are older relatives on both sides of the family that might've been diagnosed if we'd known there was a spectrum to autism when they were kids. Their adaptive strategies are/were not pretty. 😟

[Pen]

Transforming the Difficult Child: The Nurtured Heart Approach https://www.amazon.com/dp/0967050707/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_SeTrFbVMAFP7M

 

[Innisfree]

Just wanted to add that once you find what the root issues are and the most helpful way to address them, things can get so much better. I've seen tremendous growth over the years. Life is much easier than it once was. So, don't despair.

[fairfarmhand]

My difficult kid, now that we know that anxiety is a big deal for her...I look back and I see anxiety in so many things...the arguments, the constant nagging...yes to check out anxiety level. If someone is constantly on edge, that impacts their behavior. And for my kid, anxiety looks like rage and anger.

Also, here's hope for you.

My dh was one of those difficult kids. He remembers considering "I know if I do x, I'll get punished, but I want to do x so I'll just take the punishment." For him, he operated better once he was old enough to really see the reason for rules. But even now, if he considers a rule is stupid, he may or may not follow it. His dad worked better with him...clear expectations, clear consequences, no drama. His did didn't get angry or wring his hands over how "hurt" he was that his son was disobeying or consider every form of disobedience as disrespect. It was just low drama, matter of fact consequences. (not saying you're doing this, but my mother in law didn't do well with my dh) However, despite all that, my dh is a functional, fairly normal, responsible person. 

[ktgrok]

22 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Chiming in to say that autism, ADHD, and anxiety are all potentially things to rule out also. Or may be comorbid. I didn't want to be the first to jump on the autism train, but I have a child with autism, and there are older relatives on both sides of the family that might've been diagnosed if we'd known there was a spectrum to autism when they were kids. Their adaptive strategies are/were not pretty. 😟

Yup.

And for my kid with ASD and ADHD, one of the "symptoms" was zero understanding of cause and effect. So consequences didn't help, because his brain was not yet wired to use that consequence to inform future actions. In fact, once he explained sincerely that the reason he threw the book at the wall was because I yelled at him. Except...I yelled AFTER he threw the book, and BECAUSE I threw the book. His brain got it backwards! I finally gave up on consequences as a way to influence behavior when he fell off a stool (that I said not to stand on) and broke his arm - and less than 12 hours later was standing on it again, this time with his arm in a sling. I mean, if the pain and fear of a broken arm didn't convince him, what on earth was I going to come up with that would?

Instead, I made sure to modify and control his environment as much as possible. (aka, move the stools)

He DID eventually develop an understanding of cause and effect, but he was nearly 13 yrs old. One day he just said, 'Oh, I wouldn't do that - you'd get mad." And my husband and I STARED at each other thinking, "since when does that matter???"

So yeah, some is developmental. 

The rest, control the environment, and set them up for success, and do lots of role playing. 

[maize]

Seconding this recommendation

https://smile.amazon.com/Transforming-Difficult-Child-Nurtured-Approach/dp/0967050707/ref=mp_s_a_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=difficult+child&qid=1598479275&sprefix=dofficult+child&sr=8-4

And adding this one

https://smile.amazon.com/Parenting-Child-Who-Intense-Emotions/dp/1572246499/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=parenting+the+child+who+has+intense&qid=1598479420&sr=8-3

[sbgrace]

27 minutes ago, maize said:

Seconding this recommendation

https://smile.amazon.com/Transforming-Difficult-Child-Nurtured-Approach/dp/0967050707/ref=mp_s_a_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=difficult+child&qid=1598479275&sprefix=dofficult+child&sr=8-4

And adding this one

https://smile.amazon.com/Parenting-Child-Who-Intense-Emotions/dp/1572246499/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=parenting+the+child+who+has+intense&qid=1598479420&sr=8-3

These are great, as is the Explosive Child mentioned in this thread. 

I'm a real fan in the Nurtured Heart approach (the Transforming the Difficult Child book), especially for kids like this. But it can be hard to put in practice. 

This book is built on similar concepts, but felt a lot more clear and doable to me. I highly recommend it.  https://www.amazon.com/Christlike-Parenting-Taking-Pain-Out/dp/1882723465

[maize]

Anxiety, executive function difficulties, and spectrumish traits seem to be the source of most difficult behaviors in my family.

Especially anxiety.

I was not a compliant kid myself, and my parents' various efforts at discipline and motivation never had much effect--other than to leave me with the impression that I was doomed to always be in trouble and disapproved of.

With my children, I try to use validation and to be consistently calm and loving. They are not "easy" children and we've done evaluations that handed us a series of diagnoses and have tried therapy as well but honestly almost all the most difficult behaviors have resolved themselves with time and maturity.

Kids are immature, their brains are immature, they act primarily on emotion not logic. If we can make things as emotionally safe as possible for them and help them develop understanding of and coping skills to manage their own emotions I think we do more good than we do by trying to enforce discipline.

We are currently giving the Mightier biofeedback system a try and it seems to be helping my eight year old who has rather explosive meltdowns. He has actually learned to use deep breathing to calm himself down.

I will add that as a Christian I think most of the emphasis on adults disciplining children is mis-placed. I see no accounts in the Bible of Jesus condemning the behavior of children--rather, I see him commanding and encouraging adults to regulate their own behavior. 

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by maize

[katilac]

I will be another one to recommend therapy. Having a child who reminds you of people who mistreated and traumatized you is a very delicate situation. I would want an objective and trained person to, first of all, make sure that I was seeing the situation clearly and not having a trauma response that was clouding my reaction. If my perception is spot-on and this child has been showing signs beyond the norm of lying, stealing, and violence since 18 months old, then I think that calls for professional guidance as well. I know that ongoing therapy can be difficult and expensive, but I would want, at a minimum, to have some general guidance and check-in points at certain times. They are lots of choices for online therapy now and they often include texting and email. This might be a way to keep costs down while still letting you talk things out with an objective person. 

If autism is in the family,  responding as though they are NT may be counter productive. And, if  both autism and personality disorders on the family, why would you assume that latter instead of the former? That's where I think a trauma response might be coming into play. If a toddler/preschooler has noticeably negative behaviors, autism seems a more likely answer than personality disorder. 

 Not knowing which it is, I would be looking for resources and advice specific to autism. You don't run as much risk of using unsuitable techniques, and the techniques you do use, say social stories for example, will likely help even if it's not autism (and certainly won't hurt). 

Best of luck to both of you.