Sad... when a long-term friendship ends

[PeachyDoodle]

I think my 20+ year friendship with my college roommate has finally come to its demise. And I'm sad. She was the first real friend I made in college (we weren't roommates that year), when I was socially awkward and in a place where I literally knew no one. She was in my wedding; she came when my kids were born and when my sister died. We have traveled the country together. We spent many an all-nighter in college, not doing schoolwork but just talking about life. And many, many hours after that, talking on the phone and online, sometimes all day long while we both worked, since we lived in different states.

We had very similar worldviews then. But they have grown further and further apart over the years. After the last election, something broke. It's like she can't see me as the person she has known since we were 18 years old, only someone with different political views than her own. I would be happy to agree to disagree and just not discuss those things. We've kinda-sorta tried that for the past few years. I unfollowed her on Facebook because I disagree with some of the things she posts there and don't feel they're reflective of the person I know (or thought I knew). People get weird on social media and I didn't want my feelings for her to be affected by dumb things she might say there. But she continues to challenge me personally, and in a way that makes it clear that every time I disagree it's just more proof in her book that I am an evil person. Whether she thinks I was always evil or have just come to be that way recently, I don't know.

My dh has been encouraging me to break away for some time now, but I continued to see her as the only real BFF I've ever had. I kept hoping things would change, but... they're not. And I'm just... sad.

Anyway, I just needed to speak my feelings. Thanks for reading my lament.

Edited August 13, 2020 by PeachyDoodle

[TheReader]

Big, big, big hugs. I had a friendship die not so long ago, and it stinks. You'll be in my thoughts; it's just so sucky. I'm sorry you are going through that. 

[Carol in Cal.]

There is such rampant intolerance right now.  We are all pulling apart into tribes, and I think it’s a shame

[PrincessMommy]

I'm so sorry.  I have not had many BFFs in my life - and they kept moving away anyway.  I try to keep up with them on FB and fortunately, none of them are shrilly about their ideology.  But, it's never the same anyway.  I am sorry your's has ended this way.

But, what is it about social media that causes people to see another person's views as evil? And then that person as evil??  I just got into a little discussion with another friend there... and some of her friends...whoa... I just couldn't believe how awful they were treating strangers on someone else's feed (not me).   I see it on both sides of the political aisle.  It is sad.  Ive really tried to be careful not to get caught up in it and tried to be humble when I respond.  I just hope I'm not making it worse.

[PeachyDoodle]

1 minute ago, PrincessMommy said:

I'm so sorry.  I have not had many BFFs in my life - and they kept moving away anyway.  I try to keep up with them on FB and fortunately, none of them are shrilly about their ideology.  But, it's never the same anyway.  I am sorry your's has ended this way.

But, what is it about social media that causes people to see another person's views as evil? And then that person as evil??  I just got into a little discussion with another friend there... and some of her friends...whoa... I just couldn't believe how awful they were treating strangers on someone else's feed (not me).   I see it on both sides of the political aisle.  It is sad.  Ive really tried to be careful not to get caught up in it and tried to be humble when I respond.  I just hope I'm not making it worse.

Thank you. I don't know why social media does what it does to people. I mostly use it for shopping used curriculum these days. I long ago developed the habit of unfollowing folks who are ugly and/or rabidly political. Interestingly, they always seem to be people whom I know wouldn't speak to others in person the way they do on social media. 

It's not entirely social media that has done in this friendship. Unfortunately, my friend DOES speak to me in person (well, in private conversation) the same way she would on social media. It's the extreme inability to see me as ME and not as a member of a group she dislikes that baffles me. Between the two of us, my views are much more consistent to the way they were 20 years ago. 

[Junie]

(((PeachyDoodle)))

 

[PrincessMommy]

21 minutes ago, PeachyDoodle said:

Thank you. I don't know why social media does what it does to people. I mostly use it for shopping used curriculum these days. I long ago developed the habit of unfollowing folks who are ugly and/or rabidly political. Interestingly, they always seem to be people whom I know wouldn't speak to others in person the way they do on social media. 

It's not entirely social media that has done in this friendship. Unfortunately, my friend DOES speak to me in person (well, in private conversation) the same way she would on social media. It's the extreme inability to see me as ME and not as a member of a group she dislikes that baffles me. Between the two of us, my views are much more consistent to the way they were 20 years ago. 

Well, people change.  That's part of life and no necessarily a bad thing.  She had different views than you, which probably can be just a valid (seeing a different way to fix a problem for example).  It's just sad that she is being so difficult and unwilling to disagree about it.    If she's doing it in person (or over the phone) I can see why you'd want to pull away.  I also have a friend who is confrontational.  It makes the friendship less enjoyable to me.

 

[JustEm]

Have you tried talking to her about it before giving up on the friendship? One of my closest friends (I say one because she is one of 2) is very different than me politically but we've basically just come to the agreement not to talk about the things we're farthest apart on or the things that we're most passionate about that the other doesn't agree about.  We didn't need to talk to figure that out, we both just graduated to it during the last presidential race.  Things never got heated but I certainly learned things I didn't want to know about her and decided that if I delved deeper it may sour my view of her entirely.  Kind of like what you did by hiding her on facebook.  I think she naturally did the same thing with me at the same time. 

But if both people don't recognize that it needs to happen for a friendship to survive maybe talking could get you guys there.  If anything it'll be like ripping a band-aid off and the cards will fall where they will sooner so you don't need to worry about where things are progressing for so long

[itsheresomewhere]

 

50 minutes ago, PeachyDoodle said:

Thank you. I don't know why social media does what it does to people. I mostly use it for shopping used curriculum these days. I long ago developed the habit of unfollowing folks who are ugly and/or rabidly political. Interestingly, they always seem to be people whom I know wouldn't speak to others in person the way they do on social media. 

It's not entirely social media that has done in this friendship. Unfortunately, my friend DOES speak to me in person (well, in private conversation) the same way she would on social media. It's the extreme inability to see me as ME and not as a member of a group she dislikes that baffles me. Between the two of us, my views are much more consistent to the way they were 20 years ago. 

I am noticing the same thing lately and have lost a few friends to it.  This is all in person so no social media to just unfollow.  It really is like they can’t see you anymore just that you are now a horrible person for having a different opinion/belief.  

[PeachyDoodle]

59 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

Have you tried talking to her about it before giving up on the friendship?

Yeah, we've talked about it. I asked her if she could accept that I am still me even though I have different beliefs than she does, and those beliefs haven't changed who I am. If anything, I have become considerably less rigid in my worldview as I have gotten older, and I don't think I hold any beliefs now that are more extreme than they were when I was 20. (Not that I was ever an extremist, I don't think.) She basically said that there is no way a person can hold my views and still be a good person. 

[Junie]

My sister and I are just about as opposite as two women about the same age can be. 

We have agreed to three basic rules: Never talk about religion.  Never talk about politics.  Don't live in the same state. :)

We can handle each other only in small quantities.  Other factors that help are that she doesn't have any children (so there's no comparison/competition) and I'm not on facebook.  When my son got his facebook account he friended my sister.  He later told me that I wouldn't believe some of the things that she posted.  I told him that nothing she posted would surprise me. 😉

We grew up as best frenemies, but we drifted apart.  We can still have a good time together on the rare occasions that can happen, but there is always an undercurrent of something... suspicion... that puts me on edge.  And she probably feels the same way about me.

[Junie]

3 minutes ago, PeachyDoodle said:

Yeah, we've talked about it. I asked her if she could accept that I am still me even though I have different beliefs than she does, and those beliefs haven't changed who I am. If anything, I have become considerably less rigid in my worldview as I have gotten older, and I don't think I hold any beliefs now that are more extreme than they were when I was 20. (Not that I was ever an extremist, I don't think.) She basically said that there is no way a person can hold my views and still be a good person. 

That is so sad. 😞

Just because someone has a different value system doesn't make them a bad person.

[PeachyDoodle]

4 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

I suggest you let the relationship chill without making a big deal about exiting it. A couple of years may see change and perhaps the opportunity to rekindle your relationship a gracious footing.

This is good advice, thank you.

Fortunately there has not been a major blow-up or anything -- at least, not recently. But after some things were said last night I decided that it was time to let the last threads dwindle away. I hope you are right -- maybe a few years will make a difference!

[mommyoffive]

28 minutes ago, Junie said:

That is so sad. 😞

Just because someone has a different value system doesn't make them a bad person.

Yes!  

Sending some hugs.  I am sorry you are hurting right now.  

[KungFuPanda]

I don't KNOW the situation like you do, so my advice may be bad, but this might be the worst possible time to make a decision about a long-term friendship.  Everyone is under pandemic stress AND it's an election year.  Not everyone can become the best version of herself under these conditions.  If there is value to the friendship beyond politics it might be worth salvaging if neither one of you sets it on fire right now.

[SKL]

Can you just say something like, "I value our friendship too much to lose it over political discussions.  I'm going to pause until after the election.  Love you!"

[PeachyDoodle]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

Can you just say something like, "I value our friendship too much to lose it over political discussions.  I'm going to pause until after the election.  Love you!"

See, the thing is that with her everything eventually becomes political. I don't know if it's her line of work, which is closely related to her sociopolitical outlook, or what, but there is literally no topic she can't make about politics. 

I feel like I'm playing an endless game of "gotcha" and there is no way for me to win. Like she just waits for me to say something she can pounce on. It's exhausting. There's always an underlying sense of suspicion, as someone said upthread. And heaven forbid I express an opinion about social concerns (not so much pure politics, which don't really interest me) on my own social media -- something I would never do directly to her because I am actively trying to avoid triggering her -- because she will go on a tirade. I don't have the kind of Facebook wall that gets much controversy (understatement of the year); I have very few friends at all and practically no one comments on anything I post except the occasional pic of the kids or something. But I sometimes do use it to express myself, much as other people use blogs or music or whatever. It's a kind of collection of articles, videos, etc. across a range of topics that I find interesting. That, and shopping for used curriculum, lol. I have completely ignored every crazy (to me) thing she has posted over the past several years -- which I mostly do not see because I unfollowed her a long time ago and never visit her page, precisely for the reason that I want to give her the benefit of the doubt and not compromise our relationship. I suppose part of what bothers me most is the fact that she's not willing to extend that same benefit of the doubt to me.

And yes, I could stop posting anything remotely related to politics at all, but I have as much right to my opinion as she does. She can't seem to grasp that my positions are every bit as thoughtfully considered and authentic as hers are and they don't make me an extremist or bigot or whatever. We simply have looked at the same data and come to vastly different conclusions. But she seems to see it as her job to convert me, or put me in my place, or... something.

So I am past hoping that this will go away. I guess I am just mourning the friendship we had years ago, because it's not something that has existed in the recent past.

[SKL]

You can adjust post privacy on facebook so she does not see posts that you think she might react badly to.  I do this all the time with certain people.  Not sure whether that is possible on other social media platforms.

[Meriwether]

6 minutes ago, PeachyDoodle said:

I feel like I'm playing an endless game of "gotcha" and there is no way for me to win. Like she just waits for me to say something she can pounce on. It's exhausting.

I have experienced this. I have decided I can care about the people in my life that do this, but I cannot invest much in them right now. It is a stressful time, and I need to focus on positive experiences. But, for me, I try to keep love and good will at the forefront of my thoughts even if I have taken a step back from our relationship for a time. 

[PeachyDoodle]

23 minutes ago, SKL said:

You can adjust post privacy on facebook so she does not see posts that you think she might react badly to.  I do this all the time with certain people.  Not sure whether that is possible on other social media platforms.

Sure, I know. But that really doesn't address the problem. If I have to censor every word I say, even when I'm not talking directly to her and she should know it, I think that's an indication that our relationship is officially toxic.

[SKL]

Just now, PeachyDoodle said:

Sure, I know. But that really doesn't address the problem. If I have to censor every word I say, even when I'm not talking directly to her and she should know it, I think that's an indication that our relationship is officially toxic.

I guess I'm looking at it as, I don't *have* to censor myself, but I do it because it's not worth fighting with friends.  I have other people I can safely discuss politics with.

[catz]

I think it's fine if friendships have a season and you need to move on.  I have had this happen and have asked myself if there is really give and take and if the relationship is still a positive force in my life.  She may have good reason for her passion and beliefs, who knows.  Some people have good reason for certain issues being extra important to them.  It sounds like it's not working for you to need to be on guard at all times, so let it fizzle.  I think there is rarely a need for a big blow out, but just unfollow/unfriend whatever works and let it die.  If she contacts you, have a polite, brief response "I need to focus on things at home right now.  Hope all is well with you.  Take care".  This is a season where focusing your emotional energy on those things and people that "spark joy" may be important in the coming months for many of us.  If it is truly feeling toxic and you are constantly on guard, it really doesn't sound worth it to me.  

[PeachyDoodle]

18 minutes ago, SKL said:

I guess I'm looking at it as, I don't *have* to censor myself, but I do it because it's not worth fighting with friends.  I have other people I can safely discuss politics with.

If it were a group of people and it was relegated to social media, I might agree with you. As it is, it feels as though I am on constant eggshells and it's all related to a single person.

[JustEm]

4 hours ago, PeachyDoodle said:

Yeah, we've talked about it. I asked her if she could accept that I am still me even though I have different beliefs than she does, and those beliefs haven't changed who I am. If anything, I have become considerably less rigid in my worldview as I have gotten older, and I don't think I hold any beliefs now that are more extreme than they were when I was 20. (Not that I was ever an extremist, I don't think.) She basically said that there is no way a person can hold my views and still be a good person. 

 

Well then sadly I think she has basically ended the friendship for you guys

[GoodGrief]

4 hours ago, Seasider too said:

Other friendships may need a season of rest, kwim? I suggest you let the relationship chill without making a big deal about exiting it. A couple of years may see change and perhaps the opportunity to rekindle your relationship a gracious footing.

 

Excellent advice. I've had to do this. The friendship did come up strong after a couple years. Sometimes it really is about seasons of life.

[JustEm]

OP, I'm sorry this is happening.  It does suck losing a friend.  

[StaceyinLA]

I’m so sorry.

I’m going through something similar with an old, very dear friend. I unfollowed her on FB so I wouldn’t be tempted to engage in any conflict with her, but I’ve made the mistake of going to her FB a couple times to see pics and stuff, and been shocked at things she has said, and ways she has treated people in her threads. This is just not the person she has ever been, nor likely ever would be in person. It has really changed my opinion of her, and not in a good way. It’s heartbreaking.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, PeachyDoodle said:

See, the thing is that with her everything eventually becomes political. I don't know if it's her line of work, which is closely related to her sociopolitical outlook, or what, but there is literally no topic she can't make about politics. 

I feel like I'm playing an endless game of "gotcha" and there is no way for me to win. Like she just waits for me to say something she can pounce on. It's exhausting. There's always an underlying sense of suspicion, as someone said upthread. And heaven forbid I express an opinion about social concerns (not so much pure politics, which don't really interest me) on my own social media -- something I would never do directly to her because I am actively trying to avoid triggering her -- because she will go on a tirade. I don't have the kind of Facebook wall that gets much controversy (understatement of the year); I have very few friends at all and practically no one comments on anything I post except the occasional pic of the kids or something. But I sometimes do use it to express myself, much as other people use blogs or music or whatever. It's a kind of collection of articles, videos, etc. across a range of topics that I find interesting. That, and shopping for used curriculum, lol. I have completely ignored every crazy (to me) thing she has posted over the past several years -- which I mostly do not see because I unfollowed her a long time ago and never visit her page, precisely for the reason that I want to give her the benefit of the doubt and not compromise our relationship. I suppose part of what bothers me most is the fact that she's not willing to extend that same benefit of the doubt to me.

And yes, I could stop posting anything remotely related to politics at all, but I have as much right to my opinion as she does. She can't seem to grasp that my positions are every bit as thoughtfully considered and authentic as hers are and they don't make me an extremist or bigot or whatever. We simply have looked at the same data and come to vastly different conclusions. But she seems to see it as her job to convert me, or put me in my place, or... something.

So I am past hoping that this will go away. I guess I am just mourning the friendship we had years ago, because it's not something that has existed in the recent past.

Oh, man. I have so experienced that! That's why I quit FB! 

No topic is safe! I can't even mention the masks I made! If I marvel about XYZ that a country in Europe does mightily well, I'm "condoning socialism." Okay. I'm done.

 

I'm sorry for your pain, @PeachyDoodle. I think that's very hard, when long-time friends change "away" from each other. 

[Scarlett]

I think....  birds of a feather flock together.  I think this more and more the older I get. This political thing for those who are political.....I don’t see how it can work out for people who are staunchly one way or the other....

 Being non political myself...I have few of these issues.

 But I have had a situation where a long term friend of mine...45 years......and a newer friend...25 years.....I saw a conflict that made me go hmmmm about the older friendship.  It is hard.  

[mathnerd]

7 hours ago, PeachyDoodle said:

I feel like I'm playing an endless game of "gotcha" and there is no way for me to win. Like she just waits for me to say something she can pounce on. It's exhausting. There's always an underlying sense of suspicion, as someone said upthread. And heaven forbid I express an opinion about social concerns (not so much pure politics, which don't really interest me) on my own social media -- something I would never do directly to her because I am actively trying to avoid triggering her -- because she will go on a tirade.

i have an elder relative who I am obligated to be around a few times a year and I have the same experience: never opening my mouth for fear of triggering them and setting them off on a tirade - it feels like emotional abuse to me when I am around them, but, they are too old and I don't control the situation and it is exhausting, literally. I feel like I ran 25 miles when this person leaves my house because I walk on eggshells and surround myself with little kids so as to avoid triggering this person.

If this were a friend, I would completely drop communication and fade away because I feel bullied and attacked when anyone goes on a tirade while I speak something normal/innocent and without ulterior motives.

[J-rap]

I'm sorry that's happening...  That's sad and also disappointing.  I definitely think some friendships are more seasonal, and that's fine.  But I've never just "ended" a long-term, close friendship.  I've definitely taken breaks from them though!  Or sometimes they just naturally ebb and flo during different seasons and also due to living in different parts of the country or world.  On of my best childhood friends went in a pretty extreme direction after college, and we barely had contact for nearly 20 years!  Fortunately FB wasn't such a big thing yet in the way it is today, so I didn't have to constantly be reminded.  I'm pretty sure that would NOT have gone well!  She finally came back down to the ground again a few years ago, and it's like our old friendship just picked right back up where we left off 20 years earlier.  

It sounds like your friend is in a rather bad place right now though, and has become downright mean.   I'd unfollow her and just quietly put that friendship aside for now.  You never know  ~ she may come back around someday.

I do have several friends (not close friends) who say some surprising things on FB!  I unfollow them because I don't want those things to take away from all of their good qualities.  I think I'm usually most disappointed when people become unkind/mean/arrogant about differing views, when it's impossible to have any kind of decent discussion about them.

One of my best friends from college holds many views that are nearly completely opposite of mine, and not just about non-personal issues, but also very personal beliefs. You'd think we wouldn't have anything to talk about.  But, we actually have really good and fun discussions because he's very respectful and thoughtful and kind.  So, it is possible!

[TomK]

Once upon a time, it was fairly easy to separate a person from their politics. For most, it was one of those topics you simply didn't talk about in polite company and everyone knew that. Oh, people still talked politics, but you could also agree to disagree and then not see someone's political views outside of a bumper sticker on their car ever again.

Then social media rolled around. 

While it's great for so many things, it's also used by many to express their political views. That's certainly their right, of course, but there's a dark side to that. It makes it harder for people to ignore those differences anymore. It pushes them to the front and center.

My best friend and I don't share the same politics. We used to, but I grew a different direction. We don't really talk politics face-to-face because we know we disagree on it and we don't want to jeopardize the friendship over that. However, she still posts this stuff on Facebook which makes it much harder for me to ignore. I've been tempted to unfollow her, but she posts just enough other stuff--stuff we both enjoy and like talking about--that I don't.

I'm someone who discusses politics for a living, so getting into political debates on Facebook is the last thing I actually want to do. I'd rather stir up hate and disconent when I'm being paid for it. 😄 But the truth is, though, I do think we'd be better off moving political discussions into private rooms on Facebook meant for the topic. Yeah, even those social commentaries we all probably do from time to time, especially because so many of those do have political overtones. At least for some people. 

After all, none of us want to lose friends over this stuff.

It's especially hard when someone who has known you for so long says they can't see how anyone who thinks like you can be a good person. It would seem to me that the friendship is long over, though, if she can actually say something like that to you.

[Soror]

I'm feeling pulled from a long time friend, I just haven't been expressing my views. In their defense my beliefs used align more closely for them, I never was far out there but certainly way closer than now. I don't know what to do about it I change the convo and avoid it because they vehemently agree with something I disagree with 😞

[Amy in NH]

On 8/14/2020 at 3:36 AM, PeachyDoodle said:

Yeah, we've talked about it. I asked her if she could accept that I am still me even though I have different beliefs than she does, and those beliefs haven't changed who I am. If anything, I have become considerably less rigid in my worldview as I have gotten older, and I don't think I hold any beliefs now that are more extreme than they were when I was 20. (Not that I was ever an extremist, I don't think.) She basically said that there is no way a person can hold my views and still be a good person. 

 

[deleted by moderator]

[Amy in NH]

4 hours ago, TomK said:

Once upon a time, it was fairly easy to separate a person from their politics. For most, it was one of those topics you simply didn't talk about in polite company and everyone knew that. Oh, people still talked politics, but you could also agree to disagree and then not see someone's political views outside of a bumper sticker on their car ever again.

Then social media rolled around. 

While it's great for so many things, it's also used by many to express their political views. That's certainly their right, of course, but there's a dark side to that. It makes it harder for people to ignore those differences anymore. It pushes them to the front and center.

My best friend and I don't share the same politics. We used to, but I grew a different direction. We don't really talk politics face-to-face because we know we disagree on it and we don't want to jeopardize the friendship over that. However, she still posts this stuff on Facebook which makes it much harder for me to ignore. I've been tempted to unfollow her, but she posts just enough other stuff--stuff we both enjoy and like talking about--that I don't.

I'm someone who discusses politics for a living, so getting into political debates on Facebook is the last thing I actually want to do. I'd rather stir up hate and disconent when I'm being paid for it. 😄 But the truth is, though, I do think we'd be better off moving political discussions into private rooms on Facebook meant for the topic. Yeah, even those social commentaries we all probably do from time to time, especially because so many of those do have political overtones. At least for some people. 

After all, none of us want to lose friends over this stuff.

It's especially hard when someone who has known you for so long says they can't see how anyone who thinks like you can be a good person. It would seem to me that the friendship is long over, though, if she can actually say something like that to you.

 

I guess it's a matter of deciding who is actually a friend.

I use FB as a political timeline blog, and I've overtly invited others to unfollow me if they don't like it.

[sassenach]

5 hours ago, Amy in NH said:

[deleted by moderator]

Geez. That’s not what this thread is about but thanks for driving the issue home. 

[Amy in NH]

2 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Geez. That’s not what this thread is about but thanks for driving the issue home. 

Actually, it kind-of is. 

I have personal experience with ending friendships due to "politics", so I shared it.

If she finds her friendship ending due to political disagreements, she can choose to re-examine the beliefs in question or just back away. 
I understand that she believes she has every right to her own well-considered opinion,
but it may be important for her to know that if it is an opinion stemming from a lack of compassion or human rights then others will not see it that way or be forgiving,
even if there is previous relationship history.

[PeachyDoodle]

5 hours ago, Amy in NH said:

[deleted by moderator]

I'm confused. Are you confusing me of being these things? Because I'm not sure what I've said here or elsewhere that would have given you that impression.

[Amy in NH]

11 minutes ago, PeachyDoodle said:

I'm confused. Are you confusing me of being these things? Because I'm not sure what I've said here or elsewhere that would have given you that impression.

I'm not saying that you hold these beliefs or are a bad person.  I'm saying that these are the types of beliefs that would make me believe that someone is not worth being a friend.

For someone else it may be a different line in the sand.  If you don't hold those beliefs, but your friend does, maybe you want to examine your desire for a continuing friendship with her.

[desertflower]

Let's keep this topic more general please.  OP did a good job in having a discussion that was more general.  No need to get into specifics with regard to politics.  Thanks.

[Scarlett]

16 minutes ago, desertflower said:

Let's keep this topic more general please.  OP did a good job in having a discussion that was more general.  No need to get into specifics with regard to politics.  Thanks.

@Amy in NH's post did come across as little strong, but I think her point is valid....that there are some things that are lines in the sand for people and friendships do end.  Some end it in sadness and some end in anger and indignation.  

Personally my one good friend who to me has gone off the rails with her newfound political interest....she has left me more stunned and perplexed than anything.  

[sassenach]

1 hour ago, PeachyDoodle said:

I'm confused. Are you confusing me of being these things? Because I'm not sure what I've said here or elsewhere that would have given you that impression.

For reals. I’m as confused as you are. 

[PeachyDoodle]

I get the concept of the line in the sand. I suppose I've reached my own line in the sand with my friend.

I do, however, think that anyone can be misguided in some of their beliefs and remain a decent human being. I have a hard time dismissing someone as evil because they disagree with me. I believe that having a free society means living peacefully with those who hold different beliefs from me and allowing them to hold their beliefs, however misguided. Once we descend into calling others "evil," we are well on our way to dehumanizing those people, and that never ends well.

My line in the sand has to do with my friend's behavior towards me, not her beliefs. I don't choose to continue to be subjected to her abuse. Choosing to disassociate is not the same as condemning her as evil. When it comes to others, I try to maintain some humility and assume that they have different knowledge and/or experience that might contribute to their beliefs that I cannot see.

Everyone has to draw their own line, I suppose, but here is not the place to discuss those.

[GoodGrief]

Sometimes there is simply a dynamic in a long time friendship that becomes dysfunctional/unhealthy and requires a reset. My issue was also in a friendship that began in college, when I was a different sort of personality. Think queen bee and beta bee, and I was the happy beta for a long time. But at this point in life, that role doesn't work for me. A couple years break, and we were able to relate again in a healthier way.

This is different from disagreements in politics, of course. Sometimes though, those sorts of disagreements (and disrespectful behavior related to such) are just masking an underlying more fundamental relationship issue.

[rainbird2]

I'm sorry you are going through this.  I'm sure it is as hard for you as it is for your friend.

I'm going through a similar situation, but with two different relationships.  One is as you describe, a long term friend who is berating me for believing lies on one side.  I'm trying to distance myself from her for my own peace of mind.   I'm really not sad about this demise because she sounds so full of such sugar coated hate that I do not see her as a good person any longer.  That line has been drawn, and I'm okay. 

The other relationship is me trying to hold on to a dear friend and convince her to come back to neutral before she goes to far to one position.  I think I have been too much for her, and for that I have apologized.  But the opposing POV is quite convincing for her, so there she goes...it's not my place to try to win her over.  She has come to her own conclusions, and I need to respect that.  But she's not happy that I'm not joining that camp, so it's causing a divide.  I'll keep my mouth quiet and give her her distance.

I understand Amy in NH's POV, really.  It's hard to think that people can be good, but hold on to beliefs that I see as oppressive and hurtful.  I want to understand and I want to believe they have a good heart, but I just can't understand.  Can someone please help me understand??

Why does it have to be this way?  When did we get to a place where the politics are so extreme that they are killing friendships left and right?  How did we get into this position?

I think all of our friendships are being tested right now, and with some, we're going have to let go and move on.  I wish I had a better outlook, but I think this is the reality.

 

 

 

 

[PeachyDoodle]

4 hours ago, rainbird2 said:

It's hard to think that people can be good, but hold on to beliefs that I see as oppressive and hurtful.

For me I think it is key to understand that the other person does not see them as oppressive and hurtful and wouldn't hold them if she did.

My friend holds some ideas that I believe are downright dangerous. I understand that she doesn't see them that way. And it's possible that I'm entirely wrong and she is entirely right. So I don't find it incongruous to believe that she is still a good person, even though I also think she's misguided and doesn't understand the potential impact of her ideas. A little humility goes a long way. I obviously think my beliefs are correct, or I wouldn't hold them -- but I retain the possibility that I could be wrong. When we have shifted from "none of us has all the answers" to "I'm right and you're evil," we have headed down a path I don't think any of us will like in the end.

I am sorry you are going through this; I know how it feels.

[rainbird2]

On 8/15/2020 at 5:16 AM, PeachyDoodle said:

For me I think it is key to understand that the other person does not see them as oppressive and hurtful and wouldn't hold them if she did.

 

It's okay for both people to have different interpretations of what is oppressive and hurtful.  It doesn't mean that the other viewpoint isn't practicing humility when they say they cannot accept what they understand to be oppressive and hurtful.  It means that the other viewpoint is taking a stand against something they see as wrong.  It's probably an admirable thing that your friend is taking a stand, although it hurts because it's a stand against an ideal that you don't believe you hold.