Iowa Caucus fiasco and people's inability to count

[Katy]

This isn't political, this is about education.    And FTR I've lived in Iowa  (though I don't now) and caucused in both parties and neither of them could count.  Literally I stepped in to help for both sides.

Today an old friend has a post about caucuses and several people commented that they had to step in to help count at theirs because those in charge couldn't count.  One person said, "Not even math! Counting!"

Now I know that technically this results issue is probably with the accounting firm hired, and their software, but seriously....  is there any way 95% of the people on this board couldn't have hand tallied the photographed results themselves by now?  The last thing I saw said they were expecting HALF the precincts to be counted by end of day today.  This is atrocious!

Also happy to discuss any spin off questions about the process because it's so absurd and different from a primary.

[Terabith]

4 minutes ago, Katy said:

This isn't political, this is about education.    And FTR I've lived in Iowa  (though I don't now) and caucused in both parties and neither of them could count.  Literally I stepped in to help for both sides.

Today an old friend has a post about caucuses and several people commented that they had to step in to help count at theirs because those in charge couldn't count.  One person said, "Not even math! Counting!"

Now I know that technically this results issue is probably with the accounting firm hired, and their software, but seriously....  is there any way 95% of the people on this board couldn't have hand tallied the photographed results themselves by now?  The last thing I saw said they were expecting HALF the precincts to be counted by end of day today.  This is atrocious!

Also happy to discuss any spin off questions about the process because it's so absurd and different from a primary.

I just said to my husband, "A third grade class could have tallied the results for a class project and been done, accurately, by sometime last night.  There is absolutely no excuse for this."

[Lady Florida.]

A friend posted that she was living in Iowa and watching the Florida hanging chad fiasco in 2000 and is now living in Florida 20 years later watching the Iowa fiasco. 😂

She's a native Floridian who only lived a few years in Iowa. She thought the caucus system was bizarre. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Lady Florida.

[Katy]

1 minute ago, OKBud said:

Atrocious is the word!

 

Right?  Don't any of these people have a copy of Excel and know how to use it?

1 minute ago, Lady Florida. said:

A friend posted that she was living in Iowa and watching the Florida hanging chad fiasco in 2000 and is now living in Florida watching the Iowa fiasco. 😂

She's a native Floridian who only lived a few years in Iowa. She thought the caucus system was bizarre. 

It is, and both parties handle it differently.

[vonfirmath]

8 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

This is the third election in a row where there have been problems in Iowa.  Time to start rotating first in the nation primaries OR just do the whole thing for every state on Super Tuesday and be done with it like a civilized country.

Paper ballots and physical tallies, or fingerprinted app tallies.  Neither should be difficult to do and count.  I’m trying to keep my tinfoil hat off but either there are multiple fails across the system at a ridiculously high rate (likely) or the results weren’t what the DNC wanted to see and janky things ensued.  With the Register refusing to publish the pre-Caucus poll due to irregularities and such my suspicions skew to the latter.

This nonsense is what disenfranchises voters. Counting votes from photos and paper is NOT THAT HARD.

 

Please don't use fingerprint app. That would disenfranchise some of us paper-pushers.

I can't use the fingerprint system to pick my daughter up from daycare. They used to have a code you could use instead but that part stopped working so now the only way I pick her up is by signing a physical sheet. Yes, this is a problem everytime she's in a camp, etc that has decided to do away with the paper sheets. And they have to discover for themselves that No, their fingerprint sensor can not reliably capture my fingerprint and then identify it again when I put that finger back in. After two or three iterations they usually believe me and find some manual system for me to pick up my daughter.

But I fear if votes went that way, there would be no incentive to make sure there was an alternate system for those whose fingerprints are not reliable.

 

[kbutton]

2 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Please don't use fingerprint app. That would disenfranchise some of us paper-pushers.

I can't use the fingerprint system to pick my daughter up from daycare. They used to have a code you could use instead but that part stopped working so now the only way I pick her up is by signing a physical sheet. Yes, this is a problem everytime she's in a camp, etc that has decided to do away with the paper sheets. And they have to discover for themselves that No, their fingerprint sensor can not reliably capture my fingerprint and then identify it again when I put that finger back in. After two or three iterations they usually believe me and find some manual system for me to pick up my daughter.

But I fear if votes went that way, there would be no incentive to make sure there was an alternate system for those whose fingerprints are not reliable.

Yep. Multiple people in my family either have no discernable fingerprints anymore (an older but not old family member) or fingerprints that tech doesn't pick up. 

[Katy]

Just now, kbutton said:

Yep. Multiple people in my family either have no discernable fingerprints anymore (an older but not old family member) or fingerprints that tech doesn't pick up. 

 

Not to mention at least one of my kids has a close enough fingerprint to mine she can access my phone.  I can't be the only one.

[vonfirmath]

2 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

Not to mention at least one of my kids has a close enough fingerprint to mine she can access my phone.  I can't be the only one.

 

I had no idea that was even possible! (obviously, I avoid even playing with the fingerprint sensor on the phone. I don't want to get locked out of my own information!)

Edited February 4, 2020 by vonfirmath

[kbutton]

3 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

Not to mention at least one of my kids has a close enough fingerprint to mine she can access my phone.  I can't be the only one.

Yikes!

1 minute ago, vonfirmath said:

 

I had no idea that was even possible! (obviously, I avoid even playing with the fingerprint sensor on the phone. I don't want to get locked out of my own information!)

You can enable password and fingerprint ID at the same time.

[Katy]

1 minute ago, vonfirmath said:

 

I had no idea that was even possible! (obviously, I avoid even playing with the fingerprint sensor on the phone. I don't want to get locked out of my own information!)

 

I'm not sure how she did it, but I was the only one in the room with my 15 month old toddler.  She picked up my locked phone and unlocked it by pressing her index finger on the sensor.  It was at an odd angle so I'm not sure she could replicate it, but she definitely does not know my 7 digit password.  She was just trying to get to the camera and take some selfies I think.

[ktgrok]

37 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

 

Please don't use fingerprint app. That would disenfranchise some of us paper-pushers.

I can't use the fingerprint system to pick my daughter up from daycare. They used to have a code you could use instead but that part stopped working so now the only way I pick her up is by signing a physical sheet. Yes, this is a problem everytime she's in a camp, etc that has decided to do away with the paper sheets. And they have to discover for themselves that No, their fingerprint sensor can not reliably capture my fingerprint and then identify it again when I put that finger back in. After two or three iterations they usually believe me and find some manual system for me to pick up my daughter.

But I fear if votes went that way, there would be no incentive to make sure there was an alternate system for those whose fingerprints are not reliable.

 

I thought I was one of the only ones!

[ktgrok]

And yes, this is bonkers. Each precinct has the totals - that is what they were going to put into the app. You call the freaking precint, or they call you, and they tell you. You put it into an adding machine if need be, but more likely Excel, and DONE. 

I mean, i get it, there are 1,600 precincts, so that's a lot of calls. But get in some volunteers! This is bonkers. 

And yeah, i don't run toward conspiracies, but I do find myself wondering if the party just didn't like the results. Coming from Florida, Palm Beach County in particular where corruption was a way of life for politics...it wouldn't shock me. 

[vonfirmath]

2 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I thought I was one of the only ones!

 

I'd think I was crazy if my mom didn't have a very similar problem.  IT even made getting a gun license very difficult so she had to go to a special office to get a "Good enough" print made. She's the one told me it was because of handling paper all the time.

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, vonfirmath said:

 

I'd think I was crazy if my mom didn't have a very similar problem.  IT even made getting a gun license very difficult so she had to go to a special office to get a "Good enough" print made. She's the one told me it was because of handling paper all the time.

I think mine started when I was working at a vet tech and washing hands frequently. 

[Katy]

16 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

And yes, this is bonkers. Each precinct has the totals - that is what they were going to put into the app. You call the freaking precint, or they call you, and they tell you. You put it into an adding machine if need be, but more likely Excel, and DONE. 

I mean, i get it, there are 1,600 precincts, so that's a lot of calls. But get in some volunteers! This is bonkers. 

And yeah, i don't run toward conspiracies, but I do find myself wondering if the party just didn't like the results. Coming from Florida, Palm Beach County in particular where corruption was a way of life for politics...it wouldn't shock me. 

 

I think the whole point of the rule change was to make sure the party couldn't interfere in the results. 

Yes, that's what the NY Times says.  This was done because Bernie's supporters didn't like the threshold & re-alignment process: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/04/us/politics/iowa-caucus-changes.html

[TravelingChris]

The Department of Homeland Security has been tasked by Congress to ensure safe elections.  They went to the DNC 3 months ago asking to test their app  that failed yesterday.  They refused to have it tested, maybe because it was not done yet.  As my son texted to my youngest daughter, Iowa Dems needed her (she is a software test engineer).  This is really inexcbad counts  usable on so many levels-- not being able to count,  screwy phone system, not testing app, etc, etc,, etc.

 

[Farrar]

This is so NOT about math.

Every single precinct captain successfully counted and awarded their delegates with math. And wrote up their counts. Plenty of math was done.

This is about how caucuses work, what they do and maybe shouldn't do (in terms of data), and about why we need to stop relying on tech based solutions that are possibly not secure, reliable, or fully tested. Because of how it went down in terms of their app "issues," and because they had promised a great deal more information about the different rounds of voting, it makes  sense to me that they are having to go over the data repeatedly and also, on the fly, create brand new ways to present it. This is not an election. The way it works is different from a primary. There are multiple rounds that they're trying to put out. I'm not saying they didn't screw up (like, they screwed up SO HARD) but it's not because they couldn't do math.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

The Department of Homeland Security has been tasked by Congress to ensure safe elections.  They went to the DNC 3 months ago asking to test their app  that failed yesterday.  They refused to have it tested, maybe because it was not done yet.  As my son texted to my youngest daughter, Iowa Dems needed her (she is a software test engineer).  This is really inexcbad counts  usable on so many levels-- not being able to count,  screwy phone system, not testing app, etc, etc,, etc.

 

Yup. My husband is in cybersecurity and is not shocked. At all. It obviously wasn't tested properly. His whole job is a "what is the worst case scenario" voice, and no one ever wants to listen. This was very predictable - not as a definite outcome but as a very possible outcome that should have been accounted for. It wasn't. Their "back up" system was a phone line with "about a dozen" volunteers to answer it. Um, yeah...do the math. 1600 precincts calling all at once with 12 people answering isn't a back up system. 

1 hour ago, Katy said:

 

I think the whole point of the rule change was to make sure the party couldn't interfere in the results. 

Yes, that's what the NY Times says.  This was done because Bernie's supporters didn't like the threshold & re-alignment process: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/04/us/politics/iowa-caucus-changes.html

That adds to the complexity, but the problem as I'm hearing it from poll workers (not the party heads) is that they couldn't even log into the app, not that they had too many numbers to put into it. It honestly sounds like the app just got overwhelmed, and so did the phone system. 

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

This is so NOT about math.

Every single precinct captain successfully counted and awarded their delegates with math. And wrote up their counts. Plenty of math was done.

This is about how caucuses work, what they do and maybe shouldn't do (in terms of data), and about why we need to stop relying on tech based solutions that are possibly not secure, reliable, or fully tested. Because of how it went down in terms of their app "issues," and because they had promised a great deal more information about the different rounds of voting, it makes  sense to me that they are having to go over the data repeatedly and also, on the fly, create brand new ways to present it. This is not an election. The way it works is different from a primary. There are multiple rounds that they're trying to put out. I'm not saying they didn't screw up (like, they screwed up SO HARD) but it's not because they couldn't do math.

It's just plain old error it sounds like. Hey, so and so from a brand new company called "shadow" says they can make us an app - that sounds great! But no one really knew how to vet it. And according to DH the price was way too low for what they really needed, and you get what you pay for. 

[PeachyDoodle]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Yup. My husband is in cybersecurity and is not shocked. At all. It obviously wasn't tested properly. His whole job is a "what is the worst case scenario" voice, and no one ever wants to listen. This was very predictable - not as a definite outcome but as a very possible outcome that should have been accounted for. It wasn't. Their "back up" system was a phone line with "about a dozen" volunteers to answer it. Um, yeah...do the math. 1600 precincts calling all at once with 12 people answering isn't a back up system. 

That adds to the complexity, but the problem as I'm hearing it from poll workers (not the party heads) is that they couldn't even log into the app, not that they had too many numbers to put into it. It honestly sounds like the app just got overwhelmed, and so did the phone system. 

It's just plain old error it sounds like. Hey, so and so from a brand new company called "shadow" says they can make us an app - that sounds great! But no one really knew how to vet it. And according to DH the price was way too low for what they really needed, and you get what you pay for. 

Something I read claimed that they tested the app through some free service that only allows at max 200 users. When they knew that they would have 1700 users, all accessing the app at nearly precisely the same time. That, if true, was a major FAIL.

My tin foil hat-wearing side would love to see a big juicy conspiracy here. 😄 But it seems like it really just comes down to being cheap and careless.

Edited February 4, 2020 by PeachyDoodle

[Pen]

I thought this added some needed levity currently.  I expect that by time rest of primaries are done, Iowa will have been thoroughly counted.   

(Or close enough to figure out the ballot in time for general election. )

Edited February 4, 2020 by Pen

[ktgrok]

55 minutes ago, PeachyDoodle said:

Something I read claimed that they tested the app through some free service that only allows at max 200 users. When they knew that they would have 1700 users, all accessing the app at nearly precisely the same time. That, if true, was a major FAIL.

My tin foil hat-wearing side would love to see a big juice conspiracy here. 😄 But it seems like it really just comes down to being cheap and careless.

Never underestimate cheap and careless, lol. 

But yeah, true testing is a huge part of what DH advises on. He devises tests, does tabletop exercises to walk through worst case scenarios and how to handle them in real time, etc. He even has a fun game he made up that does that to make it fun for companies. Maybe he should reach out to the DNC, lol. 

[Carol in Cal.]

1 hour ago, PeachyDoodle said:

 

My tin foil hat-wearing side would love to see a big juicy conspiracy here. 😄 But it seems like it really just comes down to being cheap and careless.

Wait, don't forget 'incompetent'!

[Calm37]

My daughter was home by 8:30 and her precinct had counted and sent in their figures with no problems. But her group all stayed for the whole thing. I noticed from the news that there were some larger groups where, when people found out their candidate wasn't viable, they just left. Since those first figures had to be reported this year, suddenly there were lots of new questions as to why the first round totals were different from the next rounds. A mess and an embarrassment for sure.

[Pippen]

I think they had to do more than just count at each precinct in that they had to calcluate the delegates according to the formulas that start on page 3 here: : https://s3.amazonaws.com/collective-agency-wp-uploads/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/10/Iowa-Delegate-Selection-Plan-9.21.19.pdf

[Lady Florida.]

7 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

 

Please don't use fingerprint app. That would disenfranchise some of us paper-pushers.

I can't use the fingerprint system to pick my daughter up from daycare. They used to have a code you could use instead but that part stopped working so now the only way I pick her up is by signing a physical sheet. Yes, this is a problem everytime she's in a camp, etc that has decided to do away with the paper sheets. And they have to discover for themselves that No, their fingerprint sensor can not reliably capture my fingerprint and then identify it again when I put that finger back in. After two or three iterations they usually believe me and find some manual system for me to pick up my daughter.

But I fear if votes went that way, there would be no incentive to make sure there was an alternate system for those whose fingerprints are not reliable.

 

I have no idea why but my fingerprints have smoothed over the years. We're Universal Orlando passholders and I have to show my ID every time because my fingerprint won't register. I'm afraid to use fingerprint access on my phone for that reason and refuse to set it up. I would definitely have trouble with any kind of fingerprint voting system.

[Lady Florida.]

4 hours ago, Pen said:

I thought this added some needed levity currently.  I expect that by time rest of primaries are done, Iowa will have been thoroughly counted.   

(Or close enough to figure out the ballot in time for general election. )

More levity: If anyone reads Borowitz (satirical news) he had an article saying that Florida is offering to help Iowa count its votes. 

[school17777]

7 hours ago, Katy said:

 

Not to mention at least one of my kids has a close enough fingerprint to mine she can access my phone.  I can't be the only one.

My middle daughter was able to get on my phone with face recognition.  None of my other kids were, even my daughter that looks most like me.  However, my facial recognition stopped recognizing my face, so I had to reset it and it doesn’t work for middle daughter anymore.

[Shoeless]

5 hours ago, PeachyDoodle said:

My tin foil hat-wearing side would love to see a big juicy conspiracy here. 😄 But it seems like it really just comes down to being cheap and careless.

 

Hanlon's razor at work: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".

 

[LucyStoner]

10 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

And yes, this is bonkers. Each precinct has the totals - that is what they were going to put into the app. You call the freaking precint, or they call you, and they tell you. You put it into an adding machine if need be, but more likely Excel, and DONE. 

I mean, i get it, there are 1,600 precincts, so that's a lot of calls. But get in some volunteers! This is bonkers. 

And yeah, i don't run toward conspiracies, but I do find myself wondering if the party just didn't like the results. Coming from Florida, Palm Beach County in particular where corruption was a way of life for politics...it wouldn't shock me. 

At every precinct level caucus I have ever participated in (5 total, 4 as precinct officer) there were just too many eyes with differing opinions on hand to allow for any changing of the results shenanigans.  

I’m glad my state party ended our caucus because I think they are skewed towards certain voters but I don’t buy that anyone could change caucus results.  The campaigns were all collecting their own counts, I am sure.  

[TravelingChris]

8 hours ago, PeachyDoodle said:

Something I read claimed that they tested the app through some free service that only allows at max 200 users. When they knew that they would have 1700 users, all accessing the app at nearly precisely the same time. That, if true, was a major FAIL.

My tin foil hat-wearing side would love to see a big juicy conspiracy here. 😄 But it seems like it really just comes down to being cheap and careless.

Yeah, no. Just no.  That is why there are speciasts who are software test engineers.  The random person testing should only be done after that engineer has done her or his job.  Random users are supposed to check for user errors and very obscure situations but first you check for all the coding errors, etc.

[Pawz4me]

8 hours ago, Lady Florida. said:

I have no idea why but my fingerprints have smoothed over the years. We're Universal Orlando passholders and I have to show my ID every time because my fingerprint won't register. I'm afraid to use fingerprint access on my phone for that reason and refuse to set it up. I would definitely have trouble with any kind of fingerprint voting system.

It's a relatively common thing to happen with age. The same thing has happened to me. On your phone you can also set up a pass code, so no worries about being locked out if you want to try setting it up to read your fingerprints and it won't. When it fails to read your print it will ask for the code. But if yours is like mine there's no point in even trying to get it to read your print.

[Lady Florida.]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

It's a relatively common thing to happen with age. The same thing has happened to me. On your phone you can also set up a pass code, so no worries about being locked out if you want to try setting it up to read your fingerprints and it won't. When it fails to read your print it will ask for the code. But if yours is like mine there's no point in even trying to get it to read your print.

Thanks. I figured you could set a pass code as a backup but I also figured I'd constantly be using the backup code, so no point in setting up the fingerprint access. 

[PeachyDoodle]

7 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Yeah, no. Just no.  That is why there are speciasts who are software test engineers.  The random person testing should only be done after that engineer has done her or his job.  Random users are supposed to check for user errors and very obscure situations but first you check for all the coding errors, etc.

Well, to be fair, nothing I read said that they went straight to random person testing without first using an engineer. Only that the service they used for testing didn't allow for nearly as many users as they knew they would have, all accessing the app simultaneously. Apparently they could have paid to upgrade the service to test at the appropriate number, but they chose not to do that. Like I said, cheap and careless.

Of course, app development isn't anywhere close to my wheelhouse, so I could be completely missing something here. 

[ktgrok]

7 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

At every precinct level caucus I have ever participated in (5 total, 4 as precinct officer) there were just too many eyes with differing opinions on hand to allow for any changing of the results shenanigans.  

I’m glad my state party ended our caucus because I think they are skewed towards certain voters but I don’t buy that anyone could change caucus results.  The campaigns were all collecting their own counts, I am sure.  

Good point! Very different from traditional voting. 

 

[Katy]

It would be hard to change results at any caucus I've been too, either party.  They all have a supporter from each campaign witness the delegates, and technically although the results are announced quickly the process is over a few months- individual delegates get elected to go to first a county party convention, and then a state party convention, and finally the national convention.  The people vet the delegates so that they verbally agree that if the candidate they support drops out in between conventions you'll apply the vote towards someone with similar positions (IE: If a moderate drops out, their delegates will go to a designated similar moderate, not a socialist, etc).  They also ask those delegates to work on specific party platform issues at the conventions.

8 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

At every precinct level caucus I have ever participated in (5 total, 4 as precinct officer) there were just too many eyes with differing opinions on hand to allow for any changing of the results shenanigans.  

I’m glad my state party ended our caucus because I think they are skewed towards certain voters but I don’t buy that anyone could change caucus results.  The campaigns were all collecting their own counts, I am sure.  

 

I've never lived in a caucusing state, but they strike me as bizarre and anti [lower-case] democratic.  In all other places where we vote,  down to high school class president, secret voting is considered essential to the integrity of the process.  But in a caucus, it's all out in public.  Also, apparently some caucus locations are at people's houses?  That seems like a huge potential source of bias.

[vonfirmath]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

It would be hard to change results at any caucus I've been too, either party.  They all have a supporter from each campaign witness the delegates, and technically although the results are announced quickly the process is over a few months- individual delegates get elected to go to first a county party convention, and then a state party convention, and finally the national convention.  The people vet the delegates so that they verbally agree that if the candidate they support drops out in between conventions you'll apply the vote towards someone with similar positions (IE: If a moderate drops out, their delegates will go to a designated similar moderate, not a socialist, etc).  They also ask those delegates to work on specific party platform issues at the conventions.

 

This makes a caucus seem very like our form of government --representative.  Delegates are chosen to represent the will of the precinct, etc.

 

[Guest]

Given that I don't think I have ever used an app that didn't have significant bugs and crashes, and that it is well known that when load is high, apps become even more flaky, I'm trying to imagine how ANYONE thought an app for a caucus, which could not have been fully tested since this is a once every 4 year event was a good idea? Especially when we're talking a company developing it without a long track record of secure app development? Not to mention that it sounds like the app was loaded on personal phones, which means a big range of hardware in use, and NOT at all secure.... I'm not a software engineer, just married to one, and I can see a ton of "yeah, bad idea" flags here.

At least there are physical records, but yeah, this was just plain BAD.

[TravelingChris]

And what the h is their problem???  Since yesterday afternoon, when they released  results of 61 or 62% of precincts, they have only gone up to 71% today at almost 11am CT.  Unbelievably unorganized and stupid.

[LucyStoner]

1 hour ago, GGardner said:

 

I've never lived in a caucusing state, but they strike me as bizarre and anti [lower-case] democratic.  In all other places where we vote,  down to high school class president, secret voting is considered essential to the integrity of the process.  But in a caucus, it's all out in public.  Also, apparently some caucus locations are at people's houses?  That seems like a huge potential source of bias.

Personally, as the caucus is a nominating process for the party and not an election, I don’t mind the public voting.  Also, I took pleasure in tje participatory style democratic process.  I am however glad our state ended them and I lobbied HARD for that change.  

My main issues with the caucus are that they are more accessible to educated, high information voters who don’t have off-hour work or caregiving responsibilities or physical or other impairments that make showing up in a crowded noisy place with too few seats a challenge.  So it’s really no surprise that caucus participants, especially those who continue to the next level, tend to be younger, whiter, male, more able bodied than the electorate as a whole.  My state is more diverse than Iowa and it really was noticeable how much whiter the caucus was than the areas I have been to caucuses for.  I once lived in a neighborhood that was mostly low income and Hispanic and the precinct caucus was mostly white middle class people.  

Edited February 5, 2020 by LucyStoner

[Janeway]

22 hours ago, Katy said:

This isn't political, this is about education.    And FTR I've lived in Iowa  (though I don't now) and caucused in both parties and neither of them could count.  Literally I stepped in to help for both sides.

Today an old friend has a post about caucuses and several people commented that they had to step in to help count at theirs because those in charge couldn't count.  One person said, "Not even math! Counting!"

Now I know that technically this results issue is probably with the accounting firm hired, and their software, but seriously....  is there any way 95% of the people on this board couldn't have hand tallied the photographed results themselves by now?  The last thing I saw said they were expecting HALF the precincts to be counted by end of day today.  This is atrocious!

Also happy to discuss any spin off questions about the process because it's so absurd and different from a primary.

I like the caucus. It is a major part of Iowa culture and history, although, Iowa barely retains its own culture anymore. BUT, this post reminds me of a huge pet peeve. My husband keeps calling the Iowa Caucus a primary. I have told him a million times not to do this. I swear he does this to get on my nerves. I am from Iowa and loved my first caucus. Also, since you are open to spin off topics..the Oxford comma has been a huge issue in my life lately. I cannot stand people omitting the Oxford comma. Why is it making me so heated now? My mom's headstone came...missing the Oxford comma where her children were listed.  Because there is only one space between my name and the and..I am trying to decide which is worse...omitting the comma or having no space. So think like this......the back of the head stone says "Parents of Amy, Michael, Jane, Jennifer and Kate" So if it were fixed...it would say "Parents of Amy, Michael, Jane, Jennifer,and Kate." The comms could be added but it will fill the space and there would be no space. It drives me nuts! To top it off, it appears my oldest sister knew it was going to omit the Oxford comma but she is on the side of no Oxford commas. Literally..the Oxford comma has been an issue life and death. The living are upset over how the headstone of the dead is. All of us except oldest sibling wanted an Oxford comma. 

[Janeway]

11 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

Personally, as the caucus is a nominating process for the party and not an election, I don’t mind the public voting.  Also, I took pleasure in tje participatory style democratic process.  I am however glad our state ended them and I lobbied HARD for that change.  

My main issues with the caucus are that they are more accessible to educated, high information voters who don’t have off-hour work or caregiving responsibilities or physical or other impairments that make showing up in a crowded noisy place with too few seats a challenge.  So it’s really no surprise that caucus participants, especially those who continue to the next level, tend to be younger, whiter, male, more able bodied than the electorate as a whole.  

Iowa as a whole is mostly white. The demographics have been changing over recent years, but most people who are highly involved at the lower levels are people who have been around a long time.  So the people who end up at higher levels typically would reflect the population of the area they come from. Also, I do not know the exact count by gender, but from my experience, it has usually been females that advance to the higher levels at the Iowa Caucuses. I am off to see the break down from this year.

[Katy]

1 hour ago, GGardner said:

 

I've never lived in a caucusing state, but they strike me as bizarre and anti [lower-case] democratic.  In all other places where we vote,  down to high school class president, secret voting is considered essential to the integrity of the process.  But in a caucus, it's all out in public.  Also, apparently some caucus locations are at people's houses?  That seems like a huge potential source of bias.

 

It's all out in public and you discuss why you think your favorite candidate is the correct one (Democrats) or have someone from the group of people who supports your candidate speak to the whole room about why they should realign with your candidate rather than another (Republicans).  I've heard of having them at school gyms or at some sort of private meeting halls but I've never heard of having them at a home.  Perhaps you're mistaking this for when individuals host candidates at their homes for fund raising dinners?  That's extremely common in the run up to the caucuses.  Do you have a link?

10 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

Personally, as the caucus is a nominating process for the party and not an election, I don’t mind the public voting.  Also, I took pleasure in tje participatory style democratic process.  I am however glad our state ended them and I lobbied HARD for that change.  

My main issues with the caucus are that they are more accessible to educated, high information voters who don’t have off-hour work or caregiving responsibilities or physical or other impairments that make showing up in a crowded noisy place with too few seats a challenge.  So it’s really no surprise that caucus participants, especially those who continue to the next level, tend to be younger, whiter, male, more able bodied than the electorate as a whole.  

 

Well first of all it's easy for any Iowan to be educated, even to meet every single candidate in the 2 years before the caucus if they want to.  There are events for the full two years in multiple locations and times.  Democrats changed the access rules a bit this year and had some locations for caucuses during the morning so people who were traveling or who worked nights or couldn't arrange child care could go.  But I'm not sure knowledge of that was widespread.

[LucyStoner]

2 minutes ago, Janeway said:

Iowa as a whole is mostly white. The demographics have been changing over recent years, but most people who are highly involved at the lower levels are people who have been around a long time.  So the people who end up at higher levels typically would reflect the population of the area they come from. Also, I do not know the exact count by gender, but from my experience, it has usually been females that advance to the higher levels at the Iowa Caucuses. I am off to see the break down from this year.

I was referring to the caucus process in my own state, which is much more diverse than Iowa.  

[LucyStoner]

3 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

It's all out in public and you discuss why you think your favorite candidate is the correct one (Democrats) or have someone from the group of people who supports your candidate speak to the whole room about why they should realign with your candidate rather than another (Republicans).  I've heard of having them at school gyms or at some sort of private meeting halls but I've never heard of having them at a home.  Perhaps you're mistaking this for when individuals host candidates at their homes for fund raising dinners?  That's extremely common in the run up to the caucuses.  Do you have a link?

 

Well first of all it's easy for any Iowan to be educated, even to meet every single candidate in the 2 years before the caucus if they want to.  There are events for the full two years in multiple locations and times.  Democrats changed the access rules a bit this year and had some locations for caucuses during the morning so people who were traveling or who worked nights or couldn't arrange child care could go.  But I'm not sure knowledge of that was widespread.

My husband has almost always worked Saturdays.  First he was in retail, then a hospital pharmacy and now he’s on call weekends at a tech company.  I am active in the party and have been the precinct captain for all of my caucuses since 2004.  Not one single year did my husband’s vote, submitted in advance via the system for workers and observant Jews, wind its way correctly through to my caucus packet the way it was supposed to.  I have also dragged two autistic kids with me most times.  If I decided that caregiving prevented my attendance, I wouldn’t be eligible to submit a vote before hand since it wasn’t paid work or religion preventing my participation.  I’m clearly a committed party member and I am fond of parts of the caucus system but the access and representation issues were just too problematic for me to ignore.  I definitely come by this opinion from first hand experience.  I will miss the caucus but I’m glad it’s gone.  

1 hour ago, Katy said:

 

It's all out in public and you discuss why you think your favorite candidate is the correct one (Democrats) or have someone from the group of people who supports your candidate speak to the whole room about why they should realign with your candidate rather than another (Republicans).  I've heard of having them at school gyms or at some sort of private meeting halls but I've never heard of having them at a home.  Perhaps you're mistaking this for when individuals host candidates at their homes for fund raising dinners?  That's extremely common in the run up to the caucuses.  Do you have a link?

 

link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa_caucuses  

But the bigger issue is that we teach our kids in citizenship courses that private voting is important to democracy.  Private voting helps to ensures that votes can't be sold, and that citizens are free to vote for whom they like, with no direct repercussions. Employers can't fire workers for voting the "wrong" way if they don't know how they voted, etc.

Confidentiality is what makes it so very hard to ensure the integrity of voting in this country.  It would be so much easier to prove that no election shenanigans happened if we could just publish a big list of every voter in this country and their votes.  But I hope that no one wants that.  I don't see why things are so different on a local scale.

[livetoread]

A little off topic (since it’s not computerized voting), but still funny

https://xkcd.com/2030/

[Katy]

4 hours ago, GGardner said:

 

link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa_caucuses  

But the bigger issue is that we teach our kids in citizenship courses that private voting is important to democracy.  Private voting helps to ensures that votes can't be sold, and that citizens are free to vote for whom they like, with no direct repercussions. Employers can't fire workers for voting the "wrong" way if they don't know how they voted, etc.

Confidentiality is what makes it so very hard to ensure the integrity of voting in this country.  It would be so much easier to prove that no election shenanigans happened if we could just publish a big list of every voter in this country and their votes.  But I hope that no one wants that.  I don't see why things are so different on a local scale.

 

But it's not a vote. It's a process of winnowing down people you've actually met to a handful that other states primary vote for before the party selects their candidate who you might vote for. And it's incredibly common for people who work in political fields (in Iowa that's Big Ag, Insurance, and Tech, for the most part) to be registered as independent, to change their party walking into the caucus, and change back to independent on the way out.  So it makes NO difference in the national vote what the political bulletin emailed to you at work about which candidate would be best for the company.  Most years the opposing party to the incumbent has far more than 10 candidates who qualify for the caucus.  Most of the time many of these candidates are ridiculous and you might have 3-8 ranked in your head as to your favorite choices.  Maybe half of them will be viable.

[Frances]

7 hours ago, Janeway said:

I like the caucus. It is a major part of Iowa culture and history, although, Iowa barely retains its own culture anymore. BUT, this post reminds me of a huge pet peeve. My husband keeps calling the Iowa Caucus a primary. I have told him a million times not to do this. I swear he does this to get on my nerves. I am from Iowa and loved my first caucus. Also, since you are open to spin off topics..the Oxford comma has been a huge issue in my life lately. I cannot stand people omitting the Oxford comma. Why is it making me so heated now? My mom's headstone came...missing the Oxford comma where her children were listed.  Because there is only one space between my name and the and..I am trying to decide which is worse...omitting the comma or having no space. So think like this......the back of the head stone says "Parents of Amy, Michael, Jane, Jennifer and Kate" So if it were fixed...it would say "Parents of Amy, Michael, Jane, Jennifer,and Kate." The comms could be added but it will fill the space and there would be no space. It drives me nuts! To top it off, it appears my oldest sister knew it was going to omit the Oxford comma but she is on the side of no Oxford commas. Literally..the Oxford comma has been an issue life and death. The living are upset over how the headstone of the dead is. All of us except oldest sibling wanted an Oxford comma. 

Iowa barely retains its own culture anymore? What are you basing that statement on? My husband and I both grew up in small towns there and it seems pretty darn intact whenever we visit.

[ktgrok]

22 minutes ago, ByeByeMartha said:

Is it just me, or does anyone else think of "Beetlejuice" when they hear the name Buttigieg? 😂 (Hope this doesn't offend anyone)

All I think is "I have no idea how to spell that". Hence my constant use of the term "Mayor Pete"