Kobe Bryant

[sassenach]

This one is a stunner. So sad. 

[PrincessMommy]

Totally shocked.   May he rest in peace.  

[BarbecueMom]

Just a couple hours ago, we were playing ping pong and talking about LeBron breaking his points total last night.  Shocking indeed.

Edited January 26, 2020 by BarbecueMom

[Junie]

😞

[mominco]

😥 shocking

[Selkie]

So sad that his daughter died, too.😞

[sassenach]

1 hour ago, Selkie said:

So sad that his daughter died, too.😞

Has that been confirmed? I’m seeing all sorts of conflicting reports. 

ETA: I see that it's confirmed. Heartbreaking.

Edited January 26, 2020 by sassenach

[TravelingChris]

Apparently it is confirmed.  It was his helicopter.

[TravelingChris]

And the story has been out for a few hours now so if he was still alive, there would be probably been a retraction .  What the good news is that his wife was not on board.  Did they have any children?

i knew who  he was  and who he primarily played with but I am not a basketball fan and usually do not know about celebrities' personal lives.  I am not much into celebrity gossip and so about the most I know most of them is through headlines unless I have a particular interest in someone's background and then I go on Wikipedia.  That is usually when I want to know more about a musician or actor or some one else and know their background.

[Jaybee]

His poor wife. To lose her husband and daughter both; so tragic. And it looks like their youngest isn't even a year old yet. I didn't know this before--just looked up their family. 

[Selkie]

From ESPN:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28569438/sources-kobe-bryant-daughter-gianna-die-helicopter-crash

Oops, sorry - I meant to quote the poster above who questioned whether this had been confirmed.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Selkie

[sassenach]

19 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

And the story has been out for a few hours now so if he was still alive, there would be probably been a retraction .  What the good news is that his wife was not on board.  Did they have any children?

 

I was only speaking about the death of his daughter. There were a ton of rumors- including that all 4 of his daughters died while he was piloting. I had the TV on for awhile waiting for info about his girls but I guess the official word came in right after I turned the TV off.

[alisoncooks]

How very sad. 

[umsami]

I was stunned by this and my heart just breaks for his wife.  She's been with him since she was like 17 or so.  To lose your husband and your daughter? 😞 😞 😞

I saw a report that she heard the news via TMZ.  I pray to God that isn't true.  She would have known her daughter was with her Dad.  Imagine finding that out from a tweet or website or whatever.  How horrible.

[Farrar]

I'm sad that he's dead and especially sad that one of his daughters apparently also died. It is shocking.

I will always associate him with the rape charges that he faced so I can't say I was a fan.

[readinmom]

Dh and I were watching the game last night when Kobe's tweet about Le Bron moving up on the scoring list for the Lakers came on.  Everyone at the bar was sharing Kobe stories. Then this morning, we were out and people were rushing around to one another sharing the news.  It was just awful.   Also, Orange Coast College's baseball coach, wife and daughter were onboard as well.  Just tragic.  Our prayers to family and friends...

[Lady Florida.]

I've been out of the loop all day and only heard just before 11 pm tonight. I happened to pick up my phone to browse facebook and saw a bunch of posts. I'm not a basketball fan or a fan of any sport but this is a shock. It's so sad. 

[LucyStoner]

By his own admission he raped a 19 year old (read his apology- he did it and even if it had been "consensual" he was cheating on his wife and choking a woman).  His teammates leaked her name to the press, his notorious lawyer intimidated her into not cooperating to criminal charges and ultimately, like so many rich men before and since, he paid for her silence.  

He was a talented player and I'm sure he loved his family.  He also raped a teenager and used his fame to escape the legal ramifications of his actions.  I feel sorry for his victim who will no doubt be hearing all these great things about him over the next few days and weeks.  

That doesn't mean I am not sorry for the loss of life- his daughter, their friends and the pilot or even that I'm not sorry that he died.  It's just that I can't lionize a rapist.  

[Tenaj]

4 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

By his own admission he raped a 19 year old (read his apology- he did it and even if it had been "consensual" he was cheating on his wife and choking a woman).  His teammates leaked her name to the press, his notorious lawyer intimidated her into not cooperating to criminal charges and ultimately, like so many rich men before and since, he paid for her silence.  

He was a talented player and I'm sure he loved his family.  He also raped a teenager and used his fame to escape the legal ramifications of his actions.  I feel sorry for his victim who will no doubt be hearing all these great things about him over the next few days and weeks.  

That doesn't mean I am not sorry for the loss of life- his daughter, their friends and the pilot or even that I'm not sorry that he died.  It's just that I can't lionize a rapist.  

Thank you for reminding me of this.  I hadn't taken the time to look it up but remembered that there had been a scandal in his past.

It's been interesting to watch my 16yods process this death.  It may be the first "celebrity" death that has affected him emotionally.  He could not stop watching the coverage yesterday.  He is a huge NBA fan and I think that since he plays and travels this has brought his own mortality to mind - especially since Kobe's daughter died also.  

[Scarlett]

5 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

By his own admission he raped a 19 year old (read his apology- he did it and even if it had been "consensual" he was cheating on his wife and choking a woman).  His teammates leaked her name to the press, his notorious lawyer intimidated her into not cooperating to criminal charges and ultimately, like so many rich men before and since, he paid for her silence.  

He was a talented player and I'm sure he loved his family.  He also raped a teenager and used his fame to escape the legal ramifications of his actions.  I feel sorry for his victim who will no doubt be hearing all these great things about him over the next few days and weeks.  

That doesn't mean I am not sorry for the loss of life- his daughter, their friends and the pilot or even that I'm not sorry that he died.  It's just that I can't lionize a rapist.  

I had the tv on all afternoon and it did get a little annoying to hear about nothing but him and his greatness for hours on end.  They weren’t even talking about the other victims that I heard.  I am always a little sickened to hear of any human worshipped in that way by the press and public.  So yeah, I can only imagine what his victim was feeling.  

[SKL]

Glad I am not the only person who was surprised and a little disconcerted by the amount of pure admiration being poured out ... I mean I am sorry for the accident and all the loss of life, of course, but I too kept thinking, why is he being practically deified?  Wasn't he the guy who raped someone?  I looked it up and discovered that the accuser decided not to testify and they settled a civil case out of court.  He admitted to adultery, which if that's all it was is not particularly shocking, but who knows what really went on behind closed doors.  I guess we are supposed to pretend all that didn't happen because we don't speak ill of the dead.  Well OK, but on the other hand, let's not pretend that once you are a successful athlete, the only thing that matters is your sport.  Same goes for all famous people.

But then again ... the entertainment business, which decides what and how to report, tends to have different moral standards than the average person.

[mathnerd]

I was a huge fan of his until he was charged for raping a teen. Because he was God of basketball and had millions in endorsements, they managed to get a “good deal” for him by negotiating a settlement with the victim. But, the sordid details that came out then pointed to such behavior being not unusual for him. It made me uncomfortable aIways to hear about the “family man” that he was even after it became public knowledge that he cheated on his wife. All this to say that I am sorry for his victim that Presidents and common people are jumping on the bandwagon of praising this man as an exemplary person. I am so sorry for the baseball coach, his wife and daughter who perished in that crash. Only few celebrities mentioned them in their condolences. I am sorry for his kids losing him (one of them is an infant) but, I don’t want to read about how wonderful he was.

eta: finally, there is reporting on other victims today: there seems to have been 2 other 13 year old teammates of his daughter who died 🙁

Edited January 27, 2020 by mathnerd

[Farrar]

Yeah, I also feel disconcerted by how many people were mourning him. I was like, it's shocking because he was young and prominent and I didn't wish him dead... but do we really all feel so much for this guy? Have we all forgotten that rape? It's... I mean... I don't fully get this.

[SKL]

It's not that I think it's wrong to mourn him or even mention his accomplishments and the good side of his character.  It's just ... as a human being he was a mixed bag and when did that change?  When did his life become a thousand times more important than everyone else on that helicopter, or any other person who ever died in a crash?

My kids have no idea he ever did anything wrong.  Based on media reaction, they assume he was one of the best people who ever lived at this point.

Edited January 27, 2020 by SKL

[Selkie]

A Washington Post reporter got suspended for tweeting a link to a story about the rape case. She's been bombarded with death threats. Sickening.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7932771/Journalist-suspended-tweeting-link-story-Kobe-Bryants-rape-case-2003.html

[Farrar]

9 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

:Whispering, very quietly:  Society doesn't care about rape victims. Most people simply learned to imitate the caring noises one is supposed to make. 

But we care very, very much for wealthy people in general, and celebrities in particular. Male celebrities above all.

:Whispering even more quietly: We have been conditioned to feel in these ways and we must resist it. 

Like, nearly every single person that I've gently pushed back on this with around Kobe Bryant has basically said, "Mourning isn't a contest" and "Stop grandstanding" and "Now is not the right time to bring up rape accusations" and things along those lines. Like, geez. It is sad that people died but... people are lionizing him BIG time. I keep thinking... how does that woman feel with people standing in public squares crying and so forth?

[Farrar]

1 minute ago, OKBud said:

It's so weird and sad and disappointing. 

What I keep hearing is, "I'm not saying he was the best guy in the world, but he was a legend!" like....k?

A barely perceptible nod to to his true nature (she had bruises around her neck 😠😭)  with their real point, which was, "I was entertained by him. Nothing else matters."

I saw a good rundown post on FB where someone was saying about holding all the thoughts in their head about it... about how he was a rapist but also a great player. About how he matured and became a great dad, but of course that's never enough. About how forgiveness is good and letting people grow is good, but also about how it's not like he ever really fully apologized or like society ever really grappled with what he did appropriately.

For me, what has been the weirdest is all the people posting how sad they are who aren't NBA fans at all.

[unsinkable]

But "women! I don't get them!"

My brain is going to explode reading about how horrible Women! are in one thread (And the advice! What the cinnamon toast crunch is going on with the advice!) And this thread wondering how no one remembers the rape case.

 

[LucyStoner]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

Like, nearly every single person that I've gently pushed back on this with around Kobe Bryant has basically said, "Mourning isn't a contest" and "Stop grandstanding" and "Now is not the right time to bring up rape accusations" and things along those lines. Like, geez. It is sad that people died but... people are lionizing him BIG time. I keep thinking... how does that woman feel with people standing in public squares crying and so forth?

I’ve seen a lot of criticism dismissing people who remember the rape and thus don’t lionize the dude as “white feminists”.  Like somehow it’s not intersectional enough to remember the violence and misogyny done towards women by popular non-white men.  

I don’t find this argument to be a compelling one.  Just another way to try and shut women up, only dressed up in progressive language.  

 

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by LucyStoner

[mathnerd]

1 hour ago, parent said:

We don't follow sports or TV, but I remember headlines/jokes about him cheating and then his wife sporting massive diamonds afterward.  I mentioned that to my husband yesterday and he did not remember it.  I googled to check my memory and then saw that it was actually a rape case, which sounded awful and like he got off.  And he apparently cheated other times.  I think maybe a lot of people don't know or forgot or just remember philandering, which is common for celebrities.  It is sad if people do know and continue to idolize him.  Seems so misdirected.  It is sad there were children involved in the crash.  Glad I don't watch tv so I'm not hearing him canonized.  Playing a sport well is not a virtue.

Eta:  I think I read he had 4 daughters.  How can a man with 4 daughters abuse women?  I think casual sex with others and cheating on his wife is abuse to all the women involved.

You are right. Late night comedians used to joke about Vanessa Bryant reappearing in public wearing millions of dollars in diamonds after every new cheating scandal. I remembered that as well. It was also said that he had bodyguards standing outside guarding his room when he cheated on his wife. 

[Farrar]

5 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

I’ve seen a lot of criticism dismissing people who remember the rape and thus don’t lionize the dude as “white feminists”.  Like somehow it’s not intersectional enough to remember the violence and misogyny done towards women by popular non-white men.  

I don’t find this argument to be a compelling one.  Just another way to try and shut women up, only dressed up in progressive language.  

Black men raping white women is definitely a third rail. He almost certainly committed this rape (he nigh on admitted it and settled with the victim). And there are a lot of issues in there. White women have weaponized whiteness to attack black men for ages. But men of all sorts of have raped and committed violence against women of all sorts also for ages. I get that it's tough in terms of broad themes. But this guy really did this thing. And... ugh. I don't know this particular sportsball well. I have no idea who we should lionize instead, but I'll bet they're out there.

[GoodGrief]

The Kelly character from "The Office" had a line about Kobe Bryant years ago in the Casino Night episode: " Kobe Bryant has a foundation, and he is so hot. And he gave his wife the biggest diamond ring. I know he didn't do it. Maybe he did it. " 

[May]

May all those, who lost loved ones in this crash, be comforted by our Lord God as they grieve😢

[Selkie]

15 minutes ago, GoodGrief1 said:

The Kelly character from "The Office" had a line about Kobe Bryant years ago in the Casino Night episode: " Kobe Bryant has a foundation, and he is so hot. And he gave his wife the biggest diamond ring. I know he didn't do it. Maybe he did it. " 

I remember that ring that he gave her after he was charged with rape. It was practically the size of a car headlight.

[SKL]

I didn't know she was white.  That shouldn't matter though.  His color doesn't either.

Though I would not have been surprised if someone came back with "racist" to comments about the rape.

(And to be fair, I do not know if this was a rape or not, but if there were bruises, police report, apologies, and settlement dollars paid, I'm leaning toward rape.)

[Jaybee]

When I posted that I feel for his wife, it had nothing to do with any of this stuff. I'm sorry she has suffered such devastating loss in losing both a husband and a child. I'm not a sports fan, though I catch things here and there when dh and ds watch things. I don't follow celebrities of any kind very closely, and the more people are idolized, the more I tend to shy away from them. It has really bothered me how little focus has been on the others who lost loved ones in the crash. On their behalf, I keep wanting to say, "But my child/spouse/friend died too, and they were important to people as well!" I did actually see a quote on CNN this morning that voiced a similar response, and I was so glad that CNN included it.

[unsinkable]

The issue is the idea that women as a "group" are categorized as less than and it is OK to do that. 

and then crimes like the rape of this teenager are memory holed by the cult of celebrity worship.

I don't know. I'm probably not saying it right. 

[LucyStoner]

3 hours ago, Farrar said:

Black men raping white women is definitely a third rail. He almost certainly committed this rape (he nigh on admitted it and settled with the victim). And there are a lot of issues in there. White women have weaponized whiteness to attack black men for ages. But men of all sorts of have raped and committed violence against women of all sorts also for ages. I get that it's tough in terms of broad themes. But this guy really did this thing. And... ugh. I don't know this particular sportsball well. I have no idea who we should lionize instead, but I'll bet they're out there.

I’m definitely aware of that history.  That said, when a black male is rich and famous and the victim is female, he tends to benefit from the same sort of ”himpathy” that is normally reserved for white men.  Kobe Bryant benefited from misogyny when he got away with this and his legacy is benefiting from it now.  The concerns of feminists shouldn’t shunted aside merely because a particular feminist is white or because in this instance, the victim was white.  

[Spy Car]

Many years ago I flew as a passenger in a beautiful French-made jet helicopter with a very famous actor at the controls.

Instead of completely enjoying the beautiful scenery of the California coast line between Carmel and Big Sur and back, I spent much of the time imagining the head line: "C**** E*******  killed in helicopter crash! 3 others also perish."

I did want my life to end as a footnote (at best) in such a tragedy. This story brought back those feelings. 

Bill

 

 

 

[mathnerd]

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

Many years ago I flew as a passenger in a beautiful French-made jet helicopter with a very famous actor at the controls.

Instead of completely enjoying the beautiful scenery of the California coast line between Carmel and Big Sur and back, I spent much of the time imagining the head line: "C**** E*******  killed in helicopter crash! 3 others also perish."

I did want my life to end as a footnote (at best) in such a tragedy. This story brought back those feelings. 

Bill

 

 

 

I lived in Carmel for a couple of years: he is known locally for being a good pilot, though I have never been on his helicopter 😀

[Spy Car]

8 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

I lived in Carmel for a couple of years: he is known locally for being a good pilot, though I have never been on his helicopter 😀

Let's just say, I survived the experience. All I could hope for, really.

The coastline is beautiful from the air. As is likely news to no one.

Bill

[Meriwether]

I recognized his name, but I didn't know anything about the rape story.  As I read various SM posts, I did get the impression that he was a really good guy who loved his family, and I regretted that loss. My very liberal SIL posted several times about him. Although I disagree with her about many things, she has a good heart and strong convictions. This leads me to believe that she didn't know about anything other that his bb career. Perhaps many people only know of his bb career. 

[Lady Florida.]

5 hours ago, Meriwether said:

I recognized his name, but I didn't know anything about the rape story.  As I read various SM posts, I did get the impression that he was a really good guy who loved his family, and I regretted that loss. 

This is me. I knew he was a basketball player and from everything I was reading I got the impression he was an all around good guy. I didn't know about the rape charge until I read about it here. I didn't even know he was retired - I thought he was a current basketball player. 

[sassenach]

My 17yo had never heard about the rape until now. He brought it up to me and we had a good discussion about it. He presented it to me like a rumor, “Someone said...” and I responded, “Yes, that’s true.” And then we had a talk about how/why that event dissolved from public knowledge and how to think and feel about this whole thing now. 
 

I think we can hold all the realities in tension. It’s ok to feel shocked by his untimely death without hiding his history. 
 

Every form of loss happened in that crash. One family lost a dad and a sister. Two boys lost both their parents and their sister. Three young children lost their mom. A family lost their mom and sister. It’s heartbreaking. 

[Junie]

I don't think the media is glossing over the rape allegations.  The rape allegations have been mentioned in nearly every story about his death that I have seen.  It's part of his story.

Yes, he hurt people.  Yes, Kobe's mistakes were huge, but he learned from his mistakes and made better choices going forward.  He decided to better himself as a person and become a decent human being.  He decided that he wanted to be a loving husband and father. 

Kobe achieved great things on the basketball court.  He won five championships and put up great numbers in numerous categories. 

When people told Kobe that he needed a son to carry on his legacy, he said that he didn't need a son.  He was trusting his legacy to his daughter Gigi.  He was investing his life in her so that she could achieve some of the same things that he had achieved.  He wanted to help her live her dream of playing in the WNBA.  This is the kind of person Kobe became -- he supported women and wanted to be a role model for them.