wuhan - coronavirus

[Roadrunner]

The spike with omicron in South Africa is basically vertical. Doesn’t look good at all. 

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Oh we do quarantine, protection and months and months of lockdown. Am sitting on public transport right now with every single person masked and the strong smell of hand sanitiser. We habe vaccine mandate and unvaccinated are only allowed into food shops or medical care. Shops have guards out front making sure the very few unvacvinated don't enter. Vaccination rates in  my state are 91% 12 and over fully vaxed. Mostly all within the last 3 months. 

We take it seriously, and it is no paradise. 

Which is probably why you don’t know anyone who has had Covid, whereas in the US, it would be hard to not know anyone who had had it, and many people have lost multiple loved ones to it. 

[regentrude]

9 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Oh we do quarantine, protection and months and months of lockdown. Am sitting on public transport right now with every single person masked and the strong smell of hand sanitiser. We habe vaccine mandate and unvaccinated are only allowed into food shops or medical care. Shops have guards out front making sure the very few unvacvinated don't enter. Vaccination rates in  my state are 91% 12 and over fully vaxed. Mostly all within the last 3 months. 

We take it seriously, and it is no paradise. 

That sounds completely like paradise - compared to the shit show we have here. I would love mask mandates and the protection of knowing the venue is frequented only by vaccinated persons.
It definitely beats having to teach in a classroom full of unmasked, unvaxxed students, having to shop surrounded by unmasked, unvaxxed folks, and not being able to go anywhere that's not strictly necessary. Nah, a mask and vaccine mandate in public spaces sounds like heaven. Maybe then we also didn't have to know people who had Covid. Maybe then we didn't have to be daily concerned about infection.

Edited December 5, 2021 by regentrude

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

That sounds completely like paradise - compared to the shit show we have here. I would love mask mandates and the protection of knowing the venue is frequented only by vaccinated persons.
It definitely beats having to teach in a classroom full of unmasked, unvaxxed students, having to shop surrounded by unmasked, unvaxxed folks, and not being able to go anywhere that's not strictly necessary. Nah, a mask and vaccine mandate in public spaces sounds like heaven. Maybe then we also didn't have to know people who had Covid. Maybe then we didn't have to be daily concerned about infection.

Sounds like paradise to me, too, and I'm in a state that's taking it seriously. 

[kokotg]

18 minutes ago, regentrude said:

That sounds completely like paradise - compared to the shit show we have here. I would love mask mandates and the protection of knowing the venue is frequented only by vaccinated persons.
It definitely beats having to teach in a classroom full of unmasked, unvaxxed students, having to shop surrounded by unmasked, unvaxxed folks, and not being able to go anywhere that's not strictly necessary. Nah, a mask and vaccine mandate in public spaces sounds like heaven. Maybe then we also didn't have to know people who had Covid. Maybe then we didn't have to be daily concerned about infection.

yeah, it would also have been heavenly not to have had to discover that a lot of my neighbors, family members, etc. are capable of tolerating a seemingly limitless number of preventable deaths rather than make any personal sacrifices. 

[Melissa in Australia]

16 minutes ago, regentrude said:

That sounds completely like paradise - compared to the shit show we have here. I would love mask mandates and the protection of knowing the venue is frequented only by vaccinated persons.
It definitely beats having to teach in a classroom full of unmasked, unvaxxed students, having to shop surrounded by unmasked, unvaxxed folks, and not being able to go anywhere that's not strictly necessary. Nah, a mask and vaccine mandate in public spaces sounds like heaven. Maybe then we also didn't have to know people who had Covid. Maybe then we didn't have to be daily concerned about infection.

Until you see the very very few who are unvaccinated who have, like my neighbour (his brother die of the vaccine) , or a person with autism who has needle phobia who are now completly locked out of society until 2023. It is being called segregation here and it is. When you see 3 bouncers stationed outside a small town hardware, an confused elderly lady on a walking frame being bullied outside a clothes shop because she cannot find her vax card in her handbag and doesn't have a smart phone or a needle phobic person not allowed to access a toilet. You see that it is not a solution

 It is awful

 

[Not_a_Number]

48 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Until you see the very very few who are unvaccinated who have, like my neighbour (his brother die of the vaccine) , or a person with autism who has needle phobia who are now completly locked out of society until 2023. It is being called segregation here and it is. When you see 3 bouncers stationed outside a small town hardware, an confused elderly lady on a walking frame being bullied outside a clothes shop because she cannot find her vax card in her handbag and doesn't have a smart phone or a needle phobic person not allowed to access a toilet. You see that it is not a solution

 It is awful

 

If you don’t require vaccines, you keep people out, too. A lot of people.

[lewelma]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

If you don’t require vaccines, you keep people out, too. A lot of people.

They are letting the businesses decide here.  If they use the vaccine passports, they can have more people in the venue; if they don't use the vaccine passports, they have restricted numbers in indoor venues or must use contactless service (carry out/zoom). So the government is kind of embracing the market model to let the businesses decide if they need volume to make money, and if so, the government is requiring it to be done safely. Thus, not all businesses are requiring vaccine passports, some are welcoming the unvaxed, but then they have fewer of them in the venue. It seems to be a pretty nuanced approach.

[lewelma]

I also do not know a single person who has had covid. I'm sure this is about to change as we open up this summer/xmas.

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, lewelma said:

They are letting the businesses decide here.  If they use the vaccine passports, they can have more people in the venue; if they don't use the vaccine passports, they have restricted numbers in indoor venues or must use contactless service (carry out/zoom). So the government is kind of embracing the market model to let the businesses decide if they need volume to make money, and if so, the government is requiring it to be done safely. Thus, not all businesses are requiring vaccine passports, some are welcoming the unvaxed, but then they have fewer of them in the venue. It seems to be a pretty nuanced approach.

are businesses required to require masks?

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, lewelma said:

They are letting the businesses decide here.  If they use the vaccine passports, they can have more people in the venue; if they don't use the vaccine passports, they have restricted numbers in indoor venues or must use contactless service (carry out/zoom). So the government is kind of embracing the market model to let the businesses decide if they need volume to make money, and if so, the government is requiring it to be done safely. Thus, not all businesses are requiring vaccine passports, some are welcoming the unvaxed, but then they have fewer of them in the venue. It seems to be a pretty nuanced approach.

I hope that works well for you. You have such high vaccination numbers and such high public trust that I expect lots of things would work, honestly. We have a much more fractured situation here. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, lewelma said:

I also do not know a single person who has had covid. I'm sure this is about to change as we open up this summer/xmas.

That's so different. I barely know anyone who doesn't know anyone who DIED from COVID, never mind someone who doesn't know someone who's had it. 

[lewelma]

12 minutes ago, regentrude said:

are businesses required to require masks?

So as I said it is a nuanced model.  We have the red, orange, and green levels. Right now places with low vax levels (75-90% of 12+) or covid spreading in the community (Auckland) are in red, and there is a mask mandate in all indoor venues regardless of the use of the vaccine passports or not. 

The rest of the country with a vax rate above 90% and with no spread by district are at orange level, where if the business uses the vaccine mandate, then masks are not required but if the business chooses not to use the passport then masks are required. 

Every 2 weeks they update the red, orange, green levels to control the community spread. Obviously, we are about to find out how effective this is as they are opening Auckland up on the 15th, so covid will start spreading.

Edited December 5, 2021 by lewelma

[lewelma]

I should add that the government is working closely with the epidemiologists and modellers, and they are the ones that have set up the new system that the government has approved. Because we are running behind the rest of the world, we are learning what works and does not work from places like Singapore and Australia who moved from elimination to suppression.  

[Ausmumof3]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

That's so different. I barely know anyone who doesn't know anyone who DIED from COVID, never mind someone who doesn't know someone who's had it. 

I know someone who’s uncle died of Covid and I guess in a very distant way my DH has met the ex-premier once who currently has Covid.  We’ve been to a winery where the owners were exposed and possibly interacted with them. Outside of this forum that’s the closest we’ve come. 

[lewelma]

Interestingly, the opposition party is not really catering to the unvaxed crowd, because that is only 10% of the voting age population. So there is political unity on vaccination and masks.

There is also a shockingly high degree of compliance with mask wearing (even outside in the city where it is not required) given that we did not use masks at all until August of this year so wearing masks to us is quite new. Before August, I might see only 1 in 200 people wearing a mask, and now in the city it is about 90% and we don't actually have any cases in the city at all. 

[regentrude]

6 minutes ago, lewelma said:

So as I said it is a nuanced model.  We have the red, orange, and green levels. Right now places with low vax levels or covid spreading (Auckland) are in red, and there is a mask mandate in all indoor venues regardless of the use of the vaccine passports or not. 

The rest of the country with a vax rate above 90% and with no spread by district are at orange level, where if the business uses the vaccine mandate, then masks are not required but if the business chooses not to use the passport then masks are required. 

Every 2 weeks they update the red, orange, green levels to control the community spread. Obviously, we are about to find out how effective this is as they are opening Auckland up on the 15th, so covid will start spreading.

That sounds so beautifully sane and rational.

None of the partisan nonsense that we have here, where if you're in a conservative state, you have no public health protections whatsoever. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by regentrude

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Until you see the very very few who are unvaccinated who have, like my neighbour (his brother die of the vaccine) , or a person with autism who has needle phobia who are now completly locked out of society until 2023. It is being called segregation here and it is. When you see 3 bouncers stationed outside a small town hardware, an confused elderly lady on a walking frame being bullied outside a clothes shop because she cannot find her vax card in her handbag and doesn't have a smart phone or a needle phobic person not allowed to access a toilet. You see that it is not a solution

 It is awful

 

Why do you think Vic has decided to take a more heavy handed approach? Is it because you’ve had a worse run with the virus?  Just something about Dan’s leadership?  More population resistance? People here seem more likely to complain the GOV is not doing enough than the other way round. (Not all of course).

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Ausmumof3 said:

I know someone who’s uncle died of Covid and I guess in a very distant way my DH has met the ex-premier once who currently has Covid.  We’ve been to a winery where the owners were exposed and possibly interacted with them. Outside of this forum that’s the closest we’ve come. 

We're very privileged and have been working from home and most people we hang out with are white collar, and my list is looong:

-- DH's great-uncle died of COVID

-- DH's great-aunt (wife of the great-uncle who died) had COVID

-- A church friend of my MIL's died from COVID

-- One of our (occasional) babysitters had COVID in March 2020

-- Another just had it

-- Lots of coworkers of DH's had COVID, including a woman who had to step down from an administration position due to long COVID. We also know someone who's had it twice. 

-- The niece of DH's best friend had COVID. 

-- DH's best friend's kid sat next in class to someone who had COVID. 

-- A friend of another occasional babysitter's father died from COVID. 

Really, I can go on and on and on. 

 

[Ausmumof3]

It looks like 5th of Jan for 5-11s here which means effectively mid February before they actually are protected.

[lewelma]

What is interesting here is that the political system is working in our favour. It is as if we have a one party state like China that can just do what it likes. Because in our parlimentary system, the parties in power vote as a block, they can pass anything they like without needing opposition support. And because Jacinda's party won with >50%, they did not need to form a coalition to govern, so do not need to compromise with any party for three years. We are then equally lucky that the ruling party is working hand in hand with the scientists to manage this thing. All the way through it has been the scientists that have guided policy, given the government modelling, worked to improve every system we have in place in an ongoing way. Scientists here are becoming quite the super stars. 

[lewelma]

5 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

It looks like 5th of Jan for 5-11s here which means effectively mid February before they actually are protected.

We are even later. Late Jan for our kiddies.  The government really wants the NZ regulatory system to function properly with approval, and not just say the American approval is good enough for us. But school starts back up Feb 1, so parents are starting to loudly complain about the delays. 

[Melissa in Australia]

10 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Why do you think Vic has decided to take a more heavy handed approach? Is it because you’ve had a worse run with the virus?  Just something about Dan’s leadership?  More population resistance? People here seem more likely to complain the GOV is not doing enough than the other way round. (Not all of course).

It is Dan's power swelled head. He has just ramed through state parliament new powers for himself that are way beyond anything most governments anywhere have. 

He brags openly about how Victoria is one of the fastest vaccinated places in the world, 

That soon we will be the most vaccinated place in the world

That  the very few unvaccinated will have their lives made so miserable that their lives will not be worth living 

 

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

That sounds completely like paradise - compared to the shit show we have here. I would love mask mandates and the protection of knowing the venue is frequented only by vaccinated persons.
It definitely beats having to teach in a classroom full of unmasked, unvaxxed students, having to shop surrounded by unmasked, unvaxxed folks, and not being able to go anywhere that's not strictly necessary. Nah, a mask and vaccine mandate in public spaces sounds like heaven. Maybe then we also didn't have to know people who had Covid. Maybe then we didn't have to be daily concerned about infection.

Oh, the children are unmasked and unvaccinated! And getting Covid, including Omicron. A school in my general area has just shut with an Omicron cluster. 

I'm in a different state to Melissa, and no-one is checking vax status.here. Little old ladies can shop where they like. Ds is in retail and has instructions not to check for vac status and to ignore ppl who aren't masking. 

My dd is in Melbourne and it's pot luck whether she gets checked  or not. Dd would like things to be taken a bit more seriously, actually, but what can you do? She had to delay going clothes shopping for her new job yesterday because the city was full of unvaccinated protesters. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

The new powers Vic has are basically the same as those in NSW, just fyi. I think maybe less oversight in NSW. 

[Ausmumof3]

Thread on estimating Rt with Omicron.  Basically there’s some kind of balance going on between how inherently infectious it is and how much is immune escape but probably higher then Delta based on early information.

[lewelma]

11 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

That  the very few unvaccinated will have their lives made so miserable that their lives will not be worth living 

Wow! The approach here is to say if you are vaccine hesitant/resistant we need to keep you safe, so you need to wear masks and have fewer people in the venues to make sure you don't get it.

[Roadrunner]

NZ will be an interesting test case when it opens up. 🤞 that vaccines will hold, but honestly I don’t believe they will. 
I am at a point that I don’t see a way out of this mess. 

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0954611121004170

Results

Median age of all patients was 57 years, 37.8% were female. Higher age, male sex and higher BMI were associated with acute-COVID-19 severity (p < 0.0001, 0.001 and 0.004 respectively). Also, pulmonary restriction and reduced carbon monoxide diffusion capacity was associated with disease severity. In patients with restriction and impaired diffusion capacity, FVC improved over 12 months from 61.32 to 71.82, TLC from 68.92 to 76.95, D_LCO from 60.18 to 68.98 and K_CO from 81.28 to 87.80 (percent predicted values; p = 0.002, 0.045, 0.0002 and 0.0005). The CT-score of lung involvement in the acute phase was associated with restriction and reduction in diffusion capacity in follow-up. Respiratory symptoms improved for patients in higher severity groups during follow-up, but not for patients with initially mild disease.

Conclusion

Severity of respiratory failure during COVID-19 correlates with the degree of pulmonary function impairment and respiratory quality of life in the year after acute infection.

[KSera]

48 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

That  the very few unvaccinated will have their lives made so miserable that their lives will not be worth living 

 

These kind of statements feel dangerous/insensitive to me (I know you don't mean to be). Lots of people have reasons they have to live their lives in a similar way, and that doesn't mean their lives aren't worth living. We have lived in a more restricted way ourselves during the pandemic than what it sounds most unvaccinated people are required to do where you are, and it certainly doesn't mean our lives are not worth living. A lot of things have sucked, but there has been good to find as well, and we are getting through. Without restrictions, it just shifts the burden to older and immune compromised people rather than to unvaccinated people. I don't see how that is any better/more fair. It's a pandemic. It sucks. There's no perfect way to make a pandemic like usual life. Having good mitigation strategies in place allows it to be as much like usual life as possible.

[Ausmumof3]

This source is new to me so I’m not sure about reliability but this graph was interesting in relation to S Gene dropout in UK

 

[Melissa in Australia]

38 minutes ago, KSera said:

These kind of statements feel dangerous/insensitive to me (I know you don't mean to be). Lots of people have reasons they have to live their lives in a similar way, and that doesn't mean their lives aren't worth living. We have lived in a more restricted way ourselves during the pandemic than what it sounds most unvaccinated people are required to do where you are, and it certainly doesn't mean our lives are not worth living. A lot of things have sucked, but there has been good to find as well, and we are getting through. Without restrictions, it just shifts the burden to older and immune compromised people rather than to unvaccinated people. I don't see how that is any better/more fair. It's a pandemic. It sucks. There's no perfect way to make a pandemic like usual life. Having good mitigation strategies in place allows it to be as much like usual life as possible.

I was repeating what the premier has stated

[KSera]

30 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I was repeating what the premier has stated

Yikes, really? He told people their lives are not worth living? I'll have to look for that to see what he said, because that sounds really awful.

[LMD]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

The new powers Vic has are basically the same as those in NSW, just fyi. I think maybe less oversight in NSW. 

No, they are really not. For a start, you guys don't face $21, 000+ fines for individuals. Even nsw's latest proposal to extend emergency powers has an end date in 2023, ours have no sunset clause.

Most of the 'better than/same as nsw' stuff doesn't factor in that our state gov has a majority in all the 'oversight' committees (eg SARC, which has 4/7 labor plus one independent who votes with labor) and that labor mps aren't allowed to cross the floor. And the 'transparency' means squat - eg the gov is currently fighting to not release FOI documents. That doesn't even touch on their current corruption investigation. I'm not at all trying to imply the other side would be better, the state libs are a sh!t show  - I'm p!ssed off that either side has access to these powers.

[Melissa Louise]

https://www.smh.com.au/national/victoria-s-supposedly-autocratic-pandemic-laws-would-be-better-than-nsw-s-20211117-p599to.html

 

[LMD]

it's pretty patronising to post the first googled link without any comments.

[Ausmumof3]

Maybe best if we take it to politics?  It’s not bothering me to discuss as I think this stuff is important but don’t want to break the board rules too much.  Though I’ll admit Aussie politics usually flies under the radar a bit in terms of moderation?

[Melissa Louise]

37 minutes ago, LMD said:

it's pretty patronising to post the first googled link without any comments.

Sorry, I'm in a waiting room with dd ATM. I meant to say that this is from the civil liberties council, and they seem to think the Vic legislation is more democratic. 

[kbutton]

On 12/4/2021 at 10:41 AM, Acadie said:

My corner of Ohio is experiencing the biggest spike in the state,

I am sure we'll be right behind you. We usually lag a few weeks. Some of the larger hospital systems' emergency departments have been on divert status on and off for days. 

16 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

If you don’t require vaccines, you keep people out, too. A lot of people.

I wish this was acknowledged more, especially since it's often a social opting out. It's discounted because it's not law; it's a choice. And then we're berated directly or indirectly for opting out. I am not sure why I should want to rejoin my church if they don't enforce their own stated rules (pre-June), and now that there are no rules, it's every member for themselves. At least in my church there was always a potential path to accommodate both the cautious and the completely unconcerned to a point, and they opted to allow the unconcerned to pollute any and all activities. 

[kbutton]

Anybody else wondering if we're going to reach a point where multiple strains are circulating and people are getting more than one at a time? This happens with the flu relatively often. 

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, kbutton said:

Anybody else wondering if we're going to reach a point where multiple strains are circulating and people are getting more than one at a time? This happens with the flu relatively often. 

With the potential for recombination events…

that’s what Peter Hotez was suggesting - twin waves of Delta and Omicron 

[bookbard]

Really happy about kids vax being approved. Lower numbers today for NSW (208) and VIC (1073). Trying to decide what is safe and not safe at the moment. I went to a local restaurant last week - but our local numbers are like  . . . one? three? very low, anyway. Cannot wait till school finishes next week, no masks there, even the teachers are wearing them under their noses. 

[chocolate-chip chooky]

My high risk young adult daughter just had her booster. Woo hoo!! 🎉🎉🎉

AZ for first and second. Pfizer for the booster.

So relieved that is done.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, bookbard said:

Really happy about kids vax being approved. Lower numbers today for NSW (208) and VIC (1073). Trying to decide what is safe and not safe at the moment. I went to a local restaurant last week - but our local numbers are like  . . . one? three? very low, anyway. Cannot wait till school finishes next week, no masks there, even the teachers are wearing them under their noses. 

Fingers crossed vax rates over summer for kids mirror rates for over 12's. I actually have a horrible feeling vax rates will be lowish - so much misinformation has been allowed to spread. 

But a relief for families who do want their children to have the protection offered by the vax. 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, chocolate-chip chooky said:

My high risk young adult daughter just had her booster. Woo hoo!! 🎉🎉🎉

AZ for first and second. Pfizer for the booster.

So relieved that is done.

Yes! Hooray!! 

[SHP]

3 hours ago, kbutton said:

I wish this was acknowledged more, especially since it's often a social opting out. It's discounted because it's not law; it's a choice. And then we're berated directly or indirectly for opting out. I am not sure why I should want to rejoin my church if they don't enforce their own stated rules (pre-June), and now that there are no rules, it's every member for themselves. At least in my church there was always a potential path to accommodate both the cautious and the completely unconcerned to a point, and they opted to allow the unconcerned to pollute any and all activities. 

This. 100% this. It is exhausting. My kid could die so we stay home and still behave as we did March 2020. We are all isolated from friends and family. We cannot go out to dinner as a family. We cannot enjoy hobbies, together or even seperate, as we did in 2019. And on top of all of that we are treated like crap for being in a position where staying home is not a luxury, it is life or death.

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, SHP said:

This. 100% this. It is exhausting. My kid could die so we stay home and still behave as we did March 2020. We are all isolated from friends and family. We cannot go out to dinner as a family. We cannot enjoy hobbies, together or even seperate, as we did in 2019. And on top of all of that we are treated like crap for being in a position where staying home is not a luxury, it is life or death.

This was written on my home ed board in reference to people complaining about the vaccine passports being discrimination. It was stated in a way that I have never heard before and really spoke to me.

"*Actual* *real* discrimination is when disabled people are excluded from spaces because of an inadequate health response which does not work to take their wellbeing into account. There is a a lot of abelism in this thread and it would serve us all well if we could all check our [health] privilege."

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by lewelma

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abj5508
 

I haven’t had time to read this in depth between school and work but a possible antiviral that may work for both RSV and Covid.

[Corraleno]

42 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abj5508
 

I haven’t had time to read this in depth between school and work but a possible antiviral that may work for both RSV and Covid.

Everything about this drug looks super promising *except* that  there is no indication of how soon this would have to be given to be effective. In the tests on ferrets with SARS2 it seems that the drug had to be given within 12 hours of infection (that's initial exposure, not the appearance of symptoms). The researchers mention that since disease progression is slower in humans, the window may be larger, but no mention of how much larger. Since many people have no idea they are even infected until several days after exposure, human studies are obviously needed to see if it will still work if it's taken, say, 4-5 days after exposure.

Even if it doesn't work well at the point when most people would test positive, it might be an effective prophylactic in cases where there is a high risk of exposure. In the mouse/RSV studies, for example, it worked just as well if it was taken within 24 hours before exposure.

[YaelAldrich]

We came to Panama for a quick vacation the middle of last week until tomorrow. We wanted to give my  (boosted) mother a vacation since she hasn't traveled since Covid. I had checked out the numbers and health system and was prepared to hunker down and daily test the tour guide we hired. But once we got on the ground I was elated to see everyone wearing a surgical mask (even more 95% of them correctly!). They wear them inside and out unless eating. My mother, who was wearing a cloth mask, got asked to change into a surgical mask and was told it was safer. Our tour guide was fully vaccinated and boostered and showed us his plastic Covid card with QR code. In the Jewish community I was so so so happy to see 99% perfectly worn masks in and out of the synagogue. In my community in Boston we currently have an unchecked amount of active covid cases. No one masks or cares there. I want to stay here forever!