Reassure me about "Spiky" kids....

[Dmmetler]

I am reading Acceptance and am, frankly, finding myself getting downright panic stricken about DD's chances. Because the whole theme of the book seems to be that having a strong personal story and a guidance counselor with the right connections can open doors even at the most competitive of schools-and well, DD has a resume full of snakes, pokemon, and snaky pokemon. She has great grades and test scores, but apparently that matters less than that personal connection. And I don't have connections with guidance offices except for one friend in the local state U I went to undergrad school with and meet for coffee every now and then (and DD has already decided she doesn't want to go there). She hasn't had hardships or a compelling family narrative. We aren't able to be full pay much of anywhere, but aren't poor, either.  She isn't the first generation to attend college-or the third, on DH's side. She is a legacy at one particular school, in that her great grandfather's name is on a building, but again, it isn't even on her list of places to attend. She had to give up her varsity-level sport this fall due to medical issues, and may or may not be able to go back. Her two greatest areas of interest, and most likely undergrad majors fall in the "Two majors that put you at a disadvantage" becasue they are so common among kids who really are undecided-biology and psychology, since cognitive science/behavioral neuroscience/ethology/animal behavior are often not undergrad level majors. She has a few clubs and activities, but they are mostly small groups of homeschooled kids who come together for a specific interest. She doesn't plan to talk about her advocacy efforts in college essays, because she feels they were unsuccessful. Honestly, she doesn't really want to write, or talk, about herself at all. And we have a choice between a guidance counselor who really doesn't know her, or going independent her senior year and having mom write everything. I almost feel like I've stepped onto a football field holding a basketball, with no clue how to play the game. EEP!!!

[Corraleno]

I'm guessing you've just started that book but haven't finished it yet? I found that book really bizarre, because at the end you find out that some of the placements the GC really pushed did not work out at all. And frankly none of the choices seemed all that special or extraordinary to me — my takeaway from that book is that the bar for most PS guidance counselors is not that high if this guy is seen as an extraordinary success. 

PLEASE do not let that book make you doubt your DD's path. She really IS an extraordinary kid and she will have no trouble getting into a great school, no doubt with significant merit aid. She is the best kind of spiky kid — passionate, driven, intensely curious, and totally self-motivated.  

[catz]

Seriously, don't read stuff like that.  My kid is similar.  He is super happy and busy and has found meaningful peers at his very affordable school of choice after having to drop several $$$$ private schools from the list.  I have no doubt she could tell compelling stories of her first love of reptiles and how that love evolved and how she'd like to see it further evolve at college.  I don't think the essays need to be all that.  They want to see engaged and motivated and I'm sure she will have no problem there.   

She must have someone she could use as a reference from her CC?  We had great luck with that.  

My son felt like the college essay was torture.  It was super helpful for him to read some successful essays - a bunch of schools post examples on line.  He was actually pretty unimpressed with most of them.  LOL.  I really think for kids that have perfectionist tendencies it can be crippling.  That really helped bring it to earth for him.  

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, dmmetler said:

She has great grades and test scores, but apparently that matters less than that personal connection.

It's not that grades and test scores matter less than a GC's connections, it's that the GC's connections can make a kid stand out from a sea of kids with similar tests scores if they don't have anything else that distinguishes them. Your DD doesn't need a tip from a GC to make her stand out, she stands out because of her own unique interests and accomplishments.

She hasn't had hardships or a compelling family narrative. She isn't the first generation to attend college-or the third, on DH's side. 

Again, a hardship story is just another hook for standing out if there's nothing else extraordinary or unusual about the kid. Your DD's story is compelling.

 She had to give up her varsity-level sport this fall due to medical issues, and may or may not be able to go back.

That isn't going to make any difference. Sports don't really count for more than any other EC unless the student is a recruitable athlete.

Her two greatest areas of interest, and most likely undergrad majors fall in the "Two majors that put you at a disadvantage" becasue they are so common among kids who really are undecided-biology and psychology, since cognitive science/behavioral neuroscience/ethology/animal behavior are often not undergrad level majors. 

But the fact that her interest in those majors is based on her long-term passions and activities in cognitive science/behavioral neuroscience/ethology/animal behavior totally set her apart from all the kids who chose those majors because they think a STEM degree is more marketable but they're not mathy enough for chem & physics, or they're "interested in people" and don't know what else to choose.

She has a few clubs and activities, but they are mostly small groups of homeschooled kids who come together for a specific interest.

Honestly, this is a nonissue. DS had one EC — his sport. He listed a few other minor things (most of which were really just spin-offs from his main EC, like coaching a homeschooled fencing class, volunteering at a summer fencing camp, etc.) just so the Activities section of the Common App wouldn't look so barren. But there was nothing substantial beyond that one EC.

She doesn't plan to talk about her advocacy efforts in college essays, because she feels they were unsuccessful. Honestly, she doesn't really want to write, or talk, about herself at all. And we have a choice between a guidance counselor who really doesn't know her, or going independent her senior year and having mom write everything. I almost feel like I've stepped onto a football field holding a basketball, with no clue how to play the game. EEP!!!

I wouldn't make the decision of whether to go independent for 12th grade based solely on college apps, but if there are other good reasons for doing so, that would be my choice. The most successful applications tell a compelling, coherent story that allows adcoms to imagine the stack of papers in front of them as a living, breathing, interesting person who will stand out in their minds when most other kids are just a blur of standard test scores and standard HS classes and standard clubs. When your DD's file comes up as the committee is deciding which kids get a yes and which go in the discard pile, you want everyone at the table who ever saw her file to immediately go "Oh I remember her!" And you can paint a memorable portrait better than any GC can.

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Corraleno

[RootAnn]

I think your hardest job is going to be getting her to write about herself. Your second hardest job is getting her amazingness down to 2 pages in a counselor letter.

She has a mentor, right? If the mentor knows how to write a good letter of recommendation,  I'd use him/her as one rec.

Spiky kids are the best kind (if you don't have another hook). Yours is spiky and a leader. The ones that aren't afraid of taking a chance or standing out are awesome to adcoms.

[linders]

Uhm, really, after following the herp career of your DD for years - she has an amazingly compelling story. The essay that starts, "My passion revolves around Things With Scales, with occasional forays into All Things Reptile." The life-long narrative that goes with this will capture an admissions officer's attention.

Edited September 16, 2019 by linders

[Lawyer&Mom]

I don’t think anyone would think she was using biology as a cover story for “undeclared.” She *teaches* herpetology classes!  She’s presenting a paper at Worlds!  She did a team sport, so demonstrated ability to play well with others.  Plus amazing scores!?!  She absolutely stands out in a crowd.  You are way over thinking this. 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

I don’t think anyone would think she was using biology as a cover story for “undeclared.” She *teaches* herpetology classes!  She’s presenting a paper at Worlds!  She did a team sport, so demonstrated ability to play well with others.  Plus amazing scores!?!  She absolutely stands out in a crowd.  You are way over thinking this. 

I so agree and would recommend to stop reading the book and just look to the Hive or other trusted homeschool resources. You’ve been active enough on these boards to see how successful amazing homeschooled kids like your daughter have been in both gaining admission and getting the necessary aid. The book is not about homeschoolers. Your daughter has taken full advantage of being homeschooled and that will definitely come through in all of her materials. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

6 hours ago, dmmetler said:

I am reading Acceptance and am, frankly, finding myself getting downright panic stricken about DD's chances. Because the whole theme of the book seems to be that having a strong personal story and a guidance counselor with the right connections can open doors even at the most competitive of schools-and well, DD has a resume full of snakes, pokemon, and snaky pokemon. She has great grades and test scores, but apparently that matters less than that personal connection. And I don't have connections with guidance offices except for one friend in the local state U I went to undergrad school with and meet for coffee every now and then (and DD has already decided she doesn't want to go there). She hasn't had hardships or a compelling family narrative. We aren't able to be full pay much of anywhere, but aren't poor, either.  She isn't the first generation to attend college-or the third, on DH's side. She is a legacy at one particular school, in that her great grandfather's name is on a building, but again, it isn't even on her list of places to attend. She had to give up her varsity-level sport this fall due to medical issues, and may or may not be able to go back. Her two greatest areas of interest, and most likely undergrad majors fall in the "Two majors that put you at a disadvantage" becasue they are so common among kids who really are undecided-biology and psychology, since cognitive science/behavioral neuroscience/ethology/animal behavior are often not undergrad level majors. She has a few clubs and activities, but they are mostly small groups of homeschooled kids who come together for a specific interest. She doesn't plan to talk about her advocacy efforts in college essays, because she feels they were unsuccessful. Honestly, she doesn't really want to write, or talk, about herself at all. And we have a choice between a guidance counselor who really doesn't know her, or going independent her senior year and having mom write everything. I almost feel like I've stepped onto a football field holding a basketball, with no clue how to play the game. EEP!!!

 

You have an incredibly interesting and talented kid who has been holding her own at academic herpetology settings for years.  That is a great thing.

Will some colleges turn her down? Yep.   Even my kid who was accepted at Stanford was turned down by some other colleges (including my own alma mater, which has become something we can joke about). 

I would definitely encourage her to bite the bullet and write about herself, even though that is outside her comfort zone.  I totally understand the discomfort.  It is a feeling she shares with the vast majority of students applying to college. 

I would also say that advocacy that failed can be just as interesting, maybe even more interesting, than work that went smoothly.  When I interview, I love to talk to students about what went wrong in their projects and what they learned from it.  In my mind, if there wasn't some failure, it might show that that the attempt wasn't audacious enough.

 

And on a book note, I don't love Acceptance (or The Gatekeepers, a similar book from the admissions office side).  It does show one class of students at one school fared.  But not only does the counselor get things strikingly wrong for one student (in the afterward, at least one has transferred after freshman year), but also there are many students who don't have intimately connected counselors, who also get into great match colleges.

[lewelma]

She has the compelling story, she just has to tell it! 

It took my ds and I months of effort to really figure out what his story was. He coordinated his 6 MIT essays to tell the story in full, and then I made sure that my counselor letter filled in all the details that couldn't come out with the prompts and used this letter to describe his education as coordinated whole driven by his very pointy interests. I've never done this before and won't likely do it again, but I will send you his MIT essays and my counselor letter if you want them, so that you can see how both you and she can tell this very important story. We found it a very complex task but very very rewarding. 

[8filltheheart]

7 minutes ago, lewelma said:

She has the compelling story, she just has to tell it! 

It took my ds and I months of effort to really figure out what his story was. He coordinated his 6 MIT essays to tell the story in full, and then I made sure that my counselor letter filled in all the details that couldn't come out with the prompts and used this letter to describe his education as coordinated whole driven by his very pointy interests. I've never done this before and won't likely do it again, but I will send you his MIT essays and my counselor letter if you want them, so that you can see how both you and she can tell this very important story. We found it a very complex task but very very rewarding. 

I just pm'ed her the exact same comment. 🙂

[daijobu]

Pointy is great!  

Failure is great!  Especially if she can take some time to reflect on what she learned from her failure.  What would she do differently in retrospect?  (Sounds like a great essay topic.)

Not all students at top colleges faced hardship.  In fact, hardly any of them did.  

[GoodGrief]

She is going to be just fine. You don't need connections.

It does sound like she needs to get comfortable talking about herself. That was very difficult for my last college applicant too. She had to come to realize that the reads that these applications get are brief and the essays are the place to stand out in a sea of students with top grades and scores. Talking about yourself lets the schools for whom "fit" is significant see who you are.

I had the second daughter do some practice interviewing with a friend who was knowledgeable about such things (and also not her mother ;-) Mine tend to listen more carefully to non-relatives.) They talked about the purpose of essays and interviews.

It's also important for her to realize that parts of her life that she views as commonplace due to familiarity may be quite interesting to someone at the school. I remember talking to a local student who was an accomplished trail/mountain runner about his college applications. He had completely left that hobby off his apps, and it was a significant part of his life! Also potentially interesting to someone who lives in a different sort of place. Her work with reptiles is that sort of topic and she needs to play up that aspect of her life.

I completely sympathize about the guidance counselor issue, and I had the same question in my mind going into senior year as a long term homeschooler who functioned under an exceptionally hands-off charter school. My daughter had never met the guidance counselor whose role was essentially signing off on the subjects I presented each year. In the end, I decided the simplicity of being able to present as a student of this school outweighed the cons, but I may have been wrong in the assessment. We really struggled with getting her to understand her role in the Common App and I think her incompetence as far as inputting the midyear report did probably have some impact on the regular decision apps. My daughter did clarify her homeschooling status in the "Other Information" portion of the Common App, in an attempt to clarify that, though she was technically a charter school student, her education looked very different from that of a student in a building-based program.

[lewelma]

I was told by MIT admissions that they wanted my counselor's letter to describe what ds's nontraditional education looked like. I found this a very helpful way to look at it.  Here is the first paragraph of six of my letter, to give you a feel for the approach and tone I used. The last two sentences are basically the thesis for the letter. 

 please don't quote.

deleted

Edited September 21, 2019 by lewelma

[Sebastian (a lady)]

@lewelma Was this counselor letter in addition to a school profile, or did you not do a school profile for MIT?

[lewelma]

I did a school profile also. The above extract was from my counselor letter.

The school profile had 4 sections: 1) philosophical vision of our homeschool, 2) description of outside vendors we used, 3) approach to each main topical area (math, science, etc), and 4) how I assigned grades. Its tone was very objective. The goal was to show rigor.

The counselor letter was about how ds drove his education to achieve his own vision for how he wanted to learn and develop as a person. Its tone was very personal. The goal was to make ds seem more human.

Both also demonstrated that his education was unique.

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by lewelma

[cbollin]

On 9/16/2019 at 9:31 AM, dmmetler said:

I She doesn't plan to talk about her advocacy efforts in college essays, because she feels they were unsuccessful. Honestly, she doesn't really want to write, or talk, about herself at all. And we have a choice between a guidance counselor who really doesn't know her, or going independent her senior year and having mom write everything. I almost feel like I've stepped onto a football field holding a basketball, with no clue how to play the game. EEP!!!

 

1. "not successful" could make an interesting essay too.  The day I failed and what I learned from it.    wait. isn't that supposed to be one the common application essay options?  it shows up on searches as though it is. but we never did common app so I don't know.  

2. with the cover school that you and I use, you can talk with the guidance counselor and really let her get to know your child.  Besides, I'm pretty sure it's the case the cover school asks you to write about your student and then they put things in "counselor-ease" and sign it. 

edit to add:  ps, I'm sending a PM with link to the info about rec letter at the cover school.  It says stuff that might help you get perspective about that.

Edited September 17, 2019 by cbollin

[...................]

Well she does have some very advanced classes

she TEACHES herpetology

she has the cool blog and FB page or whatever (never did check it out cause I'm kinda afraid of snakes but I think that's something very cool and unique.)

Are you sure you want her to go to college as a 15 year old? Perhaps you don't need to apply right now, but give her an extra year.  She may be able to recover from her injuries and resume her sport (was it cheerleading can't remember) or consider related sports such as dance teams...(assuming it was cheerleading) but some sports that are more hard on joints often have related sports which are not.  ...

Even if you did want her to apply right now, she already has some pretty neat accomplishments, some very advanced classes, she's super unique with the reptile thing...and assuming her SAT scores are good, she's got a lot going for her. It looks like she's attending a conference in NZ for her reptile thing- that's super unique.  I wouldn't stress it at all. 

Also remember there are a lot of big schools, with big names that count GPA, then SAT's then look at rounding out the population a bit. If you're applying to the smaller elites you'd have a hard chance of getting in no matter what.  So be sure to include some of the bigger top 30's on your list (Penn State UC Chapel Hill, Ohio State, Michigan as well as some schools slightly less selective but smaller...) Just vary the playing field and it'll be fine.  🙂

 

[SanDiegoMom]

2 hours ago, Calming Tea said:

Also remember there are a lot of big schools, with big names that count GPA, then SAT's then look at rounding out the population a bit. If you're applying to the smaller elites you'd have a hard chance of getting in no matter what.  So be sure to include some of the bigger top 30's on your list (Penn State UC Chapel Hill, Ohio State, Michigan as well as some schools slightly less selective but smaller...) Just vary the playing field and it'll be fine.  🙂

 

The only problem with that is that while the bigger state schools might accept a student, very few offer merit aid to out of state students.  So its good to balance it out with smaller private schools that might actually be lower in cost after factoring in aid.  My daughter got offered merit scholarships to some good smaller private schools that brought the cost of tuition down close to in state levels, but while she did get accepted at UNC-CH, it would have been around 20 grand more a year to attend it than a state school. (all was moot for us since she used the GI bill, but we were taking notes for the next kids in line!)

[...................]

35 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

The only problem with that is that while the bigger state schools might accept a student, very few offer merit aid to out of state students.  So its good to balance it out with smaller private schools that might actually be lower in cost after factoring in aid.  My daughter got offered merit scholarships to some good smaller private schools that brought the cost of tuition down close to in state levels, but while she did get accepted at UNC-CH, it would have been around 20 grand more a year to attend it than a state school. (all was moot for us since she used the GI bill, but we were taking notes for the next kids in line!)

 

Absolutely agree.  That's why I said to vary the playing field.  ...you are correct and I did not intentionally omit non-elite smaller schools.  

[JanetC]

I dunno. My "spiky" kid (mars, mars, mars), also someone who didn't want to "brag about herself" on her essay and quite frankly gets that from her mom so maybe I didn't brag about her enough in her counselor letter -- was rejected/waitlisted by her reach schools and wound up at her state U after she backed out of going too far from home. (Arizona is amazing for planetary science and she got merit there.)

She's getting the challenge she needs from her participation in L'SPACE, has a good but not amazing GPA (due to so many hours of her time being spent on L'SPACE) and being lost in the crowd in big classes, and I wonder all the time whether her insistence on doing thing "her way" rather than "the way that gets you into elite schools" held her back. I don't know. We turned down the waitlist primarily because we hadn't been able to visit that particular school and we are also in the "don't want to pay that PROFILE EFC" bracket which made it harder to say "if you take me off the waitlist I'll definitely come."

So, she's getting great research experience via NASA (her team won the proposal writing contest, so they've got a 10,000 research budget to spend this year to continue when the rest of the class is done with the program!), but she hasn't joined a lab at her big state U and she hasn't connected with any professors enough to feel comfortable asking them to write a letter of recommendation for summer programs.

I feel like she's learning a ton, but not maybe not getting the most out of the school she's attending.

You're right to be concerned. Lewelma's advice that finding that "story" or "hook" is critical and DON'T BE SHY about it is on point.

Good luck.

[lewelma]

6 hours ago, JanetC said:

I dunno. My "spiky" kid (mars, mars, mars), also someone who didn't want to "brag about herself" on her essay and quite frankly gets that from her mom so maybe I didn't brag about her enough in her counselor letter

I hear you, but I also think that you don't actually want to brag.  I don't think that is the goal of the essays or the counselor's letter.

New Zealand has the 'tall poppy' culture - where tall poppies get cut down.  My ds has be indoctrinated to believe that ALL bragging is bad.  His essays were not actually braggy. They showed a focused, goal driven young man, who knew what he wanted and how he wanted to get it. It showed a student who directed his own education and personal life to achieve his own personal goals.  

His essays discussed:

How because he was homeschooled and followed his passion for math, that he outstripped his peers by the age of 11.  That because of this, he built his community from music, and how through their friendship, he learned the 'soft skills' required for all endeavours, and because of this community, he decided that he wanted to do collaborative rather than individualistic research.

In another essay, he discussed how there was no olympiad math club in town and how he couldn't find a math mentor, but yet how important the math summer camp was. Once he became good enough, he decided to give math students in this town what he never had -- a collaborative, peer-led olympiad  math program. He discussed how he made this class cooperative and built an enthusiastic and fun culture. How he organized, designed, and led this course.

He also wrote about his failures at the IMO.  How at the end he was focusing on winning rather than on his love of math, and this caused him to dread it.  How after he blew the exam, he needed to recenter, and decided that he would continue because he loved the collaboration and the friendships he had formed, and how this led him to create the above class.

Not much bragging in that list.  But lots of deep introspection and metacognition. 

Edited September 23, 2019 by lewelma

[lewelma]

For his essay "why this school" for CM, he discussed his main career goal, and what objectives were required to meet that goal. Then how for each objective, how CM could help him to achieve it. The goals were academic, research opportunities, leadership opportunities, and soft skills development or something like that - so some broad objectives. Basically, this is what *I* require, and you have a way for me to meet my goals. He was going for the leadership scholarship, so this essay (even with its horrible prompt) had to be manipulated into leadership.  The tone was one of strength, assertiveness, clarity of purpose, and outcome focus.  He also showed the ability to implement a plan.  And he did get the leadership scholarship at CM. Once again, not an essay of bragging, but one showing who he is as a person. 

[DawnM]

Does she want a highly competitive school?   My middle son applied to 4 schools, all somewhat competitive, but not reach schools.  They were in the 40-60% acceptance rate range.  He had no compelling story, was not first get college (not even 4th gen on my side.). We have no deep financial need, and we just don't have anything that makes us stand out.  He did theater in high school.  He was an Eagle Scout.  And he did a lot of volunteer work through church and scouts.  But that was about it.  

But. he got in to every school he applied to.  Now, if he had been trying for something more competitive, we would have most likely had a different tale to tell, but the good but not highly competitive schools were a good fit for him.

[lewelma]

I was under the impression that they wanted merit aid. Dmmetler's dd could definitely get a full ride scholarship to a very good school given what she has accomplished in her short life. She is a born leader with passion and the capability to implement her vision.  Getting big merit aid is equally difficult to getting into a highly competitive school. The same compelling narrative must be told.  I can help with the narrative, but 8filltheheart is the person to talk to about getting the full rides. 

I would definitely suggest schools with the Stamps scholarship for leadership.  That is some big money.

Edited September 23, 2019 by lewelma

[...................]

My son had pretty high stats, 20 concurrent college classes including very high levels of math, had worked paid job for two silicon valley startups, and also he had consistent year round and summer jobs....but not a lot of consistent leadership...he really wanted some pretty elite elites, and he didn't get in.  PennState Engineering has a low acceptance rate (about 15%) and he got in, and is extremely happy there!!! Already feeling like he's at the top of the class, getting straight A's, enjoying clubs and activities and got into a special living option for Engineers.  He is truly happy and learning and has enough opportunities to be challenged.  Though this first semester is easy, it will get hard very soon. 🙂

Honestly, it's ok. Have her apply to some reach, some target and a safety and see how it all goes.  Keep having those conversations about how things happen for a reason and that she can always bloom where planted.  Don't forget to consider, as mentioned above, the big schools, as well as the small privates that are second tier almost-elite, because they might give her a ton of merit money! 

What you want is a happy healthy student and person, not to go bankrupt or stress out too much.  

[Guest]

In DD's case, there are really two paths-large state U's that have enough classes where she can put together what she wants and be well positioned for grad school, even without a formal program (usually state flagships with vet schools or big ag/wildlife bio programs), or schools that actually have programs in things like behavioral Neuroscience, which tend to be the 15-20% or less accepted at all schools. At the former, she will usually get an out of state waiver and some part of tution automatically, but anything over that will be competitive, often highly so. And at the latter, well, she needs not only to get in but one of the handful of good scholarships each school gives. 

[lewelma]

24 minutes ago, dmmetler said:

In DD's case, there are really two paths-large state U's that have enough classes where she can put together what she wants and be well positioned for grad school, even without a formal program (usually state flagships with vet schools or big ag/wildlife bio programs), or schools that actually have programs in things like behavioral Neuroscience, which tend to be the 15-20% or less accepted at all schools. At the former, she will usually get an out of state waiver and some part of tution automatically, but anything over that will be competitive, often highly so. And at the latter, well, she needs not only to get in but one of the handful of good scholarships each school gives. 

Why do you think your dd is not competitive?!?!?  She is unique, impassioned, brilliant. Is it just her age that you think will make her less competitive compared to older kids?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

Why do you think your dd is not competitive?!?!?  She is unique, impassioned, brilliant. Is it just her age that you think will make her less competitive compared to older kids?

She may be competitive, but honestly, when you're talking about schools where the average ACT is in the 99%, and everyone has stacks of credits, everyone is pretty competitive. For the state schools, it's simply that the money pool is much shallower, and I have no illusions that there won't be many highly qualified kids. 

Edited September 26, 2019 by dmmetler

[mathnerd]

27 minutes ago, dmmetler said:

She may be competitive, but honestly, when you're talking about schools where the average ACT is in the 99%, and everyone has stacks of credits, everyone is pretty competitive. For the state schools, it's simply that the money pool is much shallower, and I have no illusions that there won't be many highly qualified kids. 

I seem to remember that she has mentors who are college professors. Is that right? Perhaps you could talk to them about your concerns and see if they can point her to a particular program in an university that they have connections with. Such connections help immensely when the competition is high and the scholarship options are limited. Seriously, you should ask for advise from them. 

[Roadrunner]

33 minutes ago, dmmetler said:

She may be competitive, but honestly, when you're talking about schools where the average ACT is in the 99%, and everyone has stacks of credits, everyone is pretty competitive. For the state schools, it's simply that the money pool is much shallower, and I have no illusions that there won't be many highly qualified kids. 

 

Your daughter is brilliant. She isn’t just competitive, but truly a standout.  I can’t imagine a place that wouldn’t want to grab her.  Frankly if you are worried about her, then I don’t know what the rest of us should be doing. 😋

We are all cheering for her!

Edited September 26, 2019 by Roadrunner

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, dmmetler said:

She may be competitive, but honestly, when you're talking about schools where the average ACT is in the 99%, and everyone has stacks of credits, everyone is pretty competitive. For the state schools, it's simply that the money pool is much shallower, and I have no illusions that there won't be many highly qualified kids. 

You are correct that your description above is a rocky place to be for competitive merit. But, that is not your Dd. You Dd has a passion that she pursued, not for college admissions, but bc it is authentically her love. Her professional pursuits from that passion is another notch above again. She is not the profile I quoted. She is definitely Stamps, Robertson, Banner-Key competitive. I expect her to be a finalist for multiple.

[Bristayl]

6 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

 

Frankly if you are worried about her, then I don’t know what the rest of us should be doing. 😋

Truth!

[lewelma]

10 hours ago, dmmetler said:

She may be competitive, but honestly, when you're talking about schools where the average ACT is in the 99%, and everyone has stacks of credits, everyone is pretty competitive. For the state schools, it's simply that the money pool is much shallower, and I have no illusions that there won't be many highly qualified kids. 

But this is where the spiky part is critical.  Sure, 1% of kids have tippy top scores, and in a large country, that is a lot of kids.  BUT your dd has (from memory):

Fallen in love with reptiles from the age of 8.

Self taught herself everything she could find, and started studying them informally by 9

Got a mentor, started studying them more formally by 10

Taken university-level biology/herpetology classes by 11

Organized and taught courses on herpetology to other herp-crazy kids by 12

Gone to national herp conferences as a specially-recognized youth guest (where all the others award winning kids were years older)  by 13

Entered CC full time, taking statistics courses and methodology course to help her understand bio research better by 13

Presented a paper at Worlds in Herp by 14

------

And this is just what I *remember*. Are you kidding me?!?!?! Your dd is amazing! She is spiky! You must sell her very special story.  Your dd *deserves* a big scholarship because she is the type of person that they were designed for.  BUT it will not fall in her lap.  You must tell her story in an authentic way. Show the passion, show the setbacks, show the determination. You and she can do this!  I know it is hard and miserable and stressful, I have so been there. But you can do this! 

Edited September 27, 2019 by lewelma

[GoodGrief]

And she needs to realize that the things she considers unsuccessful, such as the advocacy attempts you mentioned previously are worth a mention, whether the goal came to fruition or not. It's the ongoing effort in her area of interest/passion that is interesting and significant, not the "wins" so much.

Top grades and scores put her in the ballpark, but it's the "interesting" part that gets her to home plate so to speak. It's not about bragging; it's about including the pertinent information. Sometimes the young people involved in these activities don't realize their "normal" is not at all commonplace.

Honestly, my daughter that earned the Stamps scholarship at Ga Tech was not nearly as accomplished as yours.

That said, if big money is the goal, apply widely.

[teachermom2834]

OP- My ds who I think will be applying the same year as your dd has great grades and test scores and lots of local service and community engagement. But I know he isn’t going to be competitive for those big awards. And the reason is because of applicants like your dd 🙂 

Someone has to get those scholarships and no way your dd is not competitive. 

[catz]

2 hours ago, GoodGrief1 said:

 

Honestly, my daughter that earned the Stamps scholarship at Ga Tech was not nearly as accomplished as yours.

That said, if big money is the goal, apply widely.

Totally agree with apply widely if you're hoping for significant and/or competitive merit.

We live in a metro and just have a wide acquaintance circle and I've been listening to competitive admissions/merit stories for the last number of years.  And I think it's so hard to predict who will get what or who will get in where.  And even if kids get in somewhere, that doesn't mean that's going to be the choice due to financing. Schools want interesting applicants to fulfill particular niches they need filled.  I don't think anyone should necessarily think the world of themselves for being picked for competitive merit/admissions or think less of themselves if they are not.  My kid got significant merit money where we were told he would get none and rejected entirely (well, encouraged to apply as a transfer) from a school where he was well above the 75%.  🤷‍♀️  My kid is a 99% spiky type.  He's also from a city with probably lots o applicants that bring many interesting things to the table.  

I think just have an affordable back up that you would be happy, apply widely with and let the chips fall where they may.  Don't take it personally if they don't fall quite where you expected.  There are tons of great choices out there.  You really only need one good choice.

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[Guest]

16 hours ago, GoodGrief1 said:

And she needs to realize that the things she considers unsuccessful, such as the advocacy attempts you mentioned previously are worth a mention, whether the goal came to fruition or not. It's the ongoing effort in her area of interest/passion that is interesting and significant, not the "wins" so much.

Top grades and scores put her in the ballpark, but it's the "interesting" part that gets her to home plate so to speak. It's not about bragging; it's about including the pertinent information. Sometimes the young people involved in these activities don't realize their "normal" is not at all commonplace.

Honestly, my daughter that earned the Stamps scholarship at Ga Tech was not nearly as accomplished as yours.

That said, if big money is the goal, apply widely.

I think it is very much that this is "normal" for her.  We talked some last night about the essays, and at first it was very much "but I don't want to talk about X, because it didn't work, and honestly, it's just all an accident of birth and genetic makeup, so have I really accomplished anything myself? There are people who have to work a lot harder to accomplish a lot less, and they deserve a lot more attention than I do".  (Maybe she's taken a few too many sociology classes?) 

I think she has a few ideas. 

The good news is that she has about a year to figure it out--and to decide where she wants to apply. (I think she's ruled out super religious schools, military academies, and I think our Spring semester will be spent mostly on college stuff, so that hopefully by this time next year, we can get applications out early and make those final choices. And so do I. 

[wintermom]

Have you vetoed Canadian universities? Toronto was one option a few months back. Don't know if you explored Guelph. it's the big vet school in Ontario, but the location is a smaller city not far from Toronto. It's a highly regarded school, but there are other good ones in Canada. In Canadian undergrad universities students can jump right into bio, chem, psych, neuro science, etc. in first year, and by second year they are doing animal behaviour. They are doing research in 4th year for sure, but possibly in the summers before that.

Edited September 28, 2019 by wintermom

[Storm Bay]

HI,

My youngest is now a sophomore and all my kids have had different college/conservatory/university journeys but so far only one is in a highly competitive school, but all have attended schools with very strong programs in their fields. May I ask why you are set on a highly competitive school? My best advice is "don't overpay your undergrad" for most fields. While my kids ended up graduating from brick and mortar schools, I knew more than their guidance counsellors did in the end. My eldest, an Aspie (I spent a lot of time on the original boards on the special needs board it isn't even funny--way back in the early part of this century and before we got post counts like this here :) ), got a full ride at at state unviersity, my middle one is now in a very strong sculpture programme at the same school--she got so much money and learned from top level artists (including the first one to be allowed to use NASA's special black paint) doing a Fine Arts Transfer programme at a community college that she got money back each semester (presidential scholarship plus Pell Grants, State Grants and some smaller community college scholarships. She got a transfer scholarship based on grades (not full) because she signed a transfer agreement, etc, etc.

My dyslexic son is the one at a highly competitive school, but he got a merit scholarship based on his audition--trumpet performance major. Had he not got that, he'd have gone to a state school in a neighbouring state that has one of the same trumpet teachers as the one he has now and then gone for the big name schools for his grad degree.

As for Canadian universities some of them are quite affordable, and if you are after becoming a doctor there is no such thing as a bad med school there.

Best,

Karin

[GoodGrief]

7 hours ago, Storm Bay said:

May I ask why you are set on a highly competitive school?

 I've never gotten the impression that she was set on a highly competitive school. I think many of us assume her daughter would be a candidate though :-)

I may be wrong, but I think she is just looking for the right program and possibly the large merit awards, some of which can be quite competitive.

[Guest]

Canada is still on the table, but DD wants to be able to get home easily, which makes it harder. Even with doing 4 years of high school (she  will have completed all requirements for the highest diploma option available to her by December-and had only one required class this fall), she will still only be 16. Toronto has direct flights back here, which makes it appealing in the same way Chicago does. But the lack of the required core and the Canadian system definitely appeals. 

 

And she is pretty comfortable with the climate here, and has little tolerance for cold-which does enter into her calculations. 

 

It’s not so much that she’s aiming for competitive schools, but that for the most part, you don’t get the kind of classes/degree she really wants and the level of work without being at a fairly major school. And you definitely don’t get other people to work with and to collaborate with as an undergrad without a specific program. Usually one with a top veterinary school, medical school or both (and veterinary is more important than medical because she is not interested in humans as much as other animals). That tends to mean either big name private schools or state flagships, and both will require significant scholarship money. And, honestly, you often have to be in their top, specific, honors programs to get the kind of research opportunities and attention she needs at a larger school. 

 

 She does have two safeties that are smaller schools that have people she could work with almost from day 1, and where she will get significant merit, but neither really have the type of program she wants-she would be piecing together classes on top of a related degree, and trying to position herself for graduate school.  

 

[lewelma]

My older boy was strongly considering Waterloo, but we had to take it off the table when we found out that all scholarship money would not be announced until AFTER the decision date for American schools. So like May 15th or something.  They would be able to release acceptances early if required so you could choose between American/Canadian, just not the $$.

Also, I can't remember the details, but being a homeschooler was going to be a problem for my ds. They would not accept any homegrown courses, only ones with external exams.  That is probably not a problem for your dd, though, given that she has been at CC for a while. Just thought I would throw it in.