We moved closer to my parents for the first time

[lovinmyboys]

And I need help handling my dad. He is a mostly a great guy/dad/grandpa, but occasionally he does things I don’t like and I don’t know how to handle it. The three main things are: saying things I consider racist (although of course he doesn’t think they are), commenting on a ds’s chubbiness, and being very impatient with my ds who is (how to describe him?) not a people pleaser. 

We have always had a good relationship, but now I am starting to wonder if it is because he has been a plane ride away for my parenting years. I really can’t emphasize enough all the good things he has done. So, what do I do when he makes comments to my ds that he is getting chubby or says “look at that belly.” Or says things to my kids about people from the “inner city” or “illegal aliens?” So that is one issue-do I say something to him in front of the kids, to him in private, or do I just do damage control when we leave?

The other thing is that I don’t like how he snaps at one ds. He is from the generation that expects kids to just do what adults say without questioning it. This particular ds is not built that way and he gets snapped at quite a bit. I never know how to handle it because I don’t have the same expectations of him that my dad has, but then my dad wants me to get on to him when he doesn’t do what my dad tells him to.

Ugh, I love my family, but I am sort of missing the distance. OTOH, my kids are getting great experiences being near family.

[Slache]

Read Boundaries.

I don't think there's a solution to the racism. This is a deep, ingrained mindset that effects huge areas of someone's thinking.

But read Boundaries 

[Corraleno]

I would speak to him privately about the chubby comments and the snapping, and explain that while you love him and think he's a great dad and grandad, those things are hurtful to your children and he needs to stop.

I would also mention the racism privately, but if he doesn't stop I would call him out publicly, in front of my kids, every. single. time., so my kids understand that this is absolutely not OK, no matter who says it or how much you love them. And I would hope that modeling that behavior will give them the confidence to call it out whenever they see it, too, whether among peers or others.

[Tanaqui]

"Nope, we don't say that sort of thing. That's not okay."

If he tries to argue, say "I don't know how you meant it, but we don't say that sort of thing."

If he still tries to argue, move to "Time to go! It was nice visiting with you, I'll see you next week!" and leave. Immediately.

You don't care about changing hearts and minds here, you just care about changing behavior. This is the method that works. If you want to be nicer, explain in private before you start this that you don't want the kids exposed to: negative comments about their appearance, weight shaming, meanness, negative comments about other races, negative comments about immigrants, negative comments about poor people, and that if he can't mind his manners then you'll have to remove the kids from the situation.

[Slache]

30 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

You don't care about changing hearts and minds here, you just care about changing behavior. This is the method that works. If you want to be nicer, explain in private before you start this that you don't want the kids exposed to: negative comments about their appearance, weight shaming, meanness, negative comments about other races, negative comments about immigrants, negative comments about poor people, and that if he can't mind his manners then you'll have to remove the kids from the situation.

This is just my experience, but many rascists don't know they're rascist and don't understand racism. It's not black people's fault that they're poorly educated so it's ok that they're not as smart as we are. Mexicans don't know any better so we need to help them understand. This might not be this particular individual's mindset, but I see a lot of it. If their viewpoints are true then there is no harm in voicing them, so you can't make them stop.

[Tanaqui]

I don't know if you're trying to express their mindset or if you actually think "their viewpoints are true" and therefore "there is no harm in voicing them" but regardless, you can make them stop by rigorously enforcing a rule of "If you say those things, whether or not you think they're true, I will leave. Immediately."

Of course, if they don't particularly care to see you or the kids then it won't work, but at least you'll know.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Tanaqui

[Slache]

No, my point is that these ideas tend to sort of spread out across all areas of life, so they'll say them without thinking. It's not a matter of "don't say these 5 things" but a huge, general mindset that can't be contained. It's like saying "don't act religious" or "don't be liberal". It's too big of a concept, too ingrained.

Hopefully not the case here.

[Slache]

I guess I would say it's an opinion vs worldview problem. Children should be seen and not heard is an opinion. This results in a few bad behaviors that can be corrected. Black people are lesser than white people is a worldview. If you talk about history racism will come out. Economics? Racism. The news? Racism. It's just how they see everything and if they think they're correct then that view will not change.

Sorry to hijack the thread. I just wanted to be clear.

 

Eta: I am so tired! I am colorblind. If you ask me to sort a bunch of blue and green items into two piles I will do it wrong. A rascist is racism blind. If you ask them to put their comments into two piles they will do it wrong. It's not a matter of respecting OPs requests, it's a matter of not getting it.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Slache

[freesia]

I agree that you need to set boundaries .  I would also do damage control.

Except, I do think your ds should respect what his grandfather asks him to do and stop.  I hope you don’t mean he doesn’t need to.  Kids need boundaries, too.

[mumto2]

Say it to him in private. 

[DawnM]

Boundaries haven't ever worked with my mom.  Ever.  So, I remain a plane ride away and always will.  She is 89 and in bad health, so I don't anticipate being worried about it for too much longer (and no, I don't want her to die) but I can't live near her.  

My dad is much easier and only makes comments that make me cringe on rare occasions.  But he has his own things that would make it hard to live near him (very rigid thinking about what is Christian and what isn't, and we don't see it the same way and he feels it is his Godly duty to comment on all of it because God wants us to keep each other accountable, blah, blah)

All I am saying is, boundaries may work, and they may not, but you have to protect yourself and your family, and particularly your children.   With my kids I have said things like, "That is how they are, we do not believe or think the same way they do, but it isn't worth getting into it with them because their mindset isn't going to change, but we don't have to act that way."

My kids get it.  They know G&G are older and that Grandma in particular, isn't going to change no matter what we say, and it isn't worth getting into it with her.  They also know they see her very seldom.

[Farrar]

Seconding the above advice, especially about the racist comments. He's not going to know what they are. I'd just call them out in a very unemotional, matter of fact way. This is what I started doing with my grandmother when she said things in front of the kids. My father knew better than to say such things in front of the kids, which, honestly, in a way made me madder because it's like, I can tell that you KNOW what you said is not socially acceptable. But agreed with the above about how you're not trying to change him. You're just trying to get him to stop and trying to demonstrate to your kids that those views aren't acceptable in your family.

As for the attitudes toward your kids, I'd also approach him in private and I'd frame it as a parenting issue. You're the parent. It's an important value to you as the parent that weight not be commented on like that and that your kids be allowed to behave in the ways that are considered acceptable by you. If he has a problem, as long as it's not something that endangers the kid in the moment, then he should bring it to you and let you deal with it because you're the parent, not him. And emphasize that this is partly because you want him to be the loving, indulging, spoiling grandparent - that you know he really is! - that it's grandparents' job to just love their grandkids and they don't have to worry about the kids' faults (or, ahem, lack thereof).

[lovinmyboys]

1 hour ago, freesia said:

I agree that you need to set boundaries .  I would also do damage control.

Except, I do think your ds should respect what his grandfather asks him to do and stop.  I hope you don’t mean he doesn’t need to.  Kids need boundaries, too.

 

I should have made this my main question, maybe. I, of course, think ds should do what he is told in lots of things-put your dishes away, shut the door, take your shoes off, play quieter, etc.

The problem is my dad will decide he wants to take the kids on a bike ride, then expect ds to just stop what he is doing and go. That is totally fine for my other kids-they have no problem with it. Ds is just not good with stuff like that. He HATES being told what to do. I don’t know how to explain it very well. If I decide we are going on a family bike ride, I tell him in advance so he can prepare and he usually does fine. And, I don’t make too many demands like that in a day. Honestly, other than what has to be done, I try not to make him do more than a couple of other things (even fun things). My dad thinks he can direct his whole day, and ds can’t handle it. I would like for my dad to not “make” him do things that are really optional. But my dad just doesn’t get that at all. He would just say he is the adult and kids don’t get a say. When I have tried to talk to him about it, he basically makes it all about ds misbehaving without acknowledging his role in it. 

I get it. It seems ridiculous that ds wouldn’t want to go on a bike ride (or whatever), but I really don’t want to fight him about things that are supposed to be fun. And ds shouldn’t be rude about it, but I think he doesn’t know how to handle it because my dad won’t take no for an answer. What I would like is for him to be able to say “no thank you grandpa” and that be acceptable.

[DawnM]

2 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

 

I should have made this my main question, maybe. I, of course, think ds should do what he is told in lots of things-put your dishes away, shut the door, take your shoes off, play quieter, etc.

The problem is my dad will decide he wants to take the kids on a bike ride, then expect ds to just stop what he is doing and go. That is totally fine for my other kids-they have no problem with it. Ds is just not good with stuff like that. He HATES being told what to do. I don’t know how to explain it very well. If I decide we are going on a family bike ride, I tell him in advance so he can prepare and he usually does fine. And, I don’t make too many demands like that in a day. Honestly, other than what has to be done, I try not to make him do more than a couple of other things (even fun things). My dad thinks he can direct his whole day, and ds can’t handle it. I would like for my dad to not “make” him do things that are really optional. But my dad just doesn’t get that at all. He would just say he is the adult and kids don’t get a say. When I have tried to talk to him about it, he basically makes it all about ds misbehaving without acknowledging his role in it. 

I get it. It seems ridiculous that ds wouldn’t want to go on a bike ride (or whatever), but I really don’t want to fight him about things that are supposed to be fun. And ds shouldn’t be rude about it, but I think he doesn’t know how to handle it because my dad won’t take no for an answer. What I would like is for him to be able to say “no thank you grandpa” and that be acceptable.

 

We were at my in-laws once and DH's father was the "clean plate club" type and wasn't having any of my oldest (Asperger's) not finishing his meal.  He said,  "you will sit here until you finish that food!"  They sat for 4 hours until my son fell asleep at the table.  🤣  

I had no idea this was going on, I was not there, my husband told me.  

I was always a "pack it in a container and eat it when you are hungry again" club person.  I don't understand forcing children to eat.  I was pretty mad about it later.

[Slache]

6 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

I should have made this my main question, maybe. I, of course, think ds should do what he is told in lots of things-put your dishes away, shut the door, take your shoes off, play quieter, etc.

The problem is my dad will decide he wants to take the kids on a bike ride, then expect ds to just stop what he is doing and go. That is totally fine for my other kids-they have no problem with it. Ds is just not good with stuff like that. He HATES being told what to do. I don’t know how to explain it very well. If I decide we are going on a family bike ride, I tell him in advance so he can prepare and he usually does fine. And, I don’t make too many demands like that in a day. Honestly, other than what has to be done, I try not to make him do more than a couple of other things (even fun things). My dad thinks he can direct his whole day, and ds can’t handle it. I would like for my dad to not “make” him do things that are really optional. But my dad just doesn’t get that at all. He would just say he is the adult and kids don’t get a say. When I have tried to talk to him about it, he basically makes it all about ds misbehaving without acknowledging his role in it. 

I get it. It seems ridiculous that ds wouldn’t want to go on a bike ride (or whatever), but I really don’t want to fight him about things that are supposed to be fun. And ds shouldn’t be rude about it, but I think he doesn’t know how to handle it because my dad won’t take no for an answer. What I would like is for him to be able to say “no thank you grandpa” and that be acceptable.

It's not ridiculous! Your son, your rules. You expect mutual respect, your dad expects blind obedience. It's not fair to your son.

[Farrar]

Yeah, all the more reason to frame this privately as a parenting thing. You understand your ds and his personality. It's an important value to you that he be able to be himself. You're aware that he only has so much capacity to do what others tell him without prior notice and you like to use those chips wisely every  day. Those are all your decisions as his mother. Granddad needs to learn to take a polite no for an  answer.

[Clemsondana]

For the 'going places' issue, I'd tell (or have grandpa tell) ds (and all of the kiddos) that grandpa is taking kids biking/shopping/for ice cream in 15 minutes, once everybody has used the bathroom and gotten shoes on, so if he wants to go, get ready.  If he doesn't, he's welcome to stay home.  It's not a punishment, it's a choice.  Of course, this only works if kiddo is old enough to stay home or if another adult is home.  This has been a big help at our house in the past year or 2.  

[unsinkable]

39 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

 

I should have made this my main question, maybe. I, of course, think ds should do what he is told in lots of things-put your dishes away, shut the door, take your shoes off, play quieter, etc.

The problem is my dad will decide he wants to take the kids on a bike ride, then expect ds to just stop what he is doing and go. That is totally fine for my other kids-they have no problem with it. Ds is just not good with stuff like that. He HATES being told what to do. I don’t know how to explain it very well. If I decide we are going on a family bike ride, I tell him in advance so he can prepare and he usually does fine. And, I don’t make too many demands like that in a day. Honestly, other than what has to be done, I try not to make him do more than a couple of other things (even fun things). My dad thinks he can direct his whole day, and ds can’t handle it. I would like for my dad to not “make” him do things that are really optional. But my dad just doesn’t get that at all. He would just say he is the adult and kids don’t get a say. When I have tried to talk to him about it, he basically makes it all about ds misbehaving without acknowledging his role in it. 

I get it. It seems ridiculous that ds wouldn’t want to go on a bike ride (or whatever), but I really don’t want to fight him about things that are supposed to be fun. And ds shouldn’t be rude about it, but I think he doesn’t know how to handle it because my dad won’t take no for an answer. What I would like is for him to be able to say “no thank you grandpa” and that be acceptable.

I think your bigger problem is your son, not your dad. 

If he "HATES being told what to do" and is only "usually" fine once you adjust YOUR expectations to a reasonable request, that is an issue that does not improve with age or with a widening circle of interactions with the bigger world. 

The line between respectful parenting and catering to unreasonable expectations gets blurred easily. And then the child runs into people who can't or won't set up his life the way family has. It is a difficult situation.

[Farrar]

5 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

I think your bigger problem is your son, not your dad. 

If he "HATES being told what to do" and is only "usually" fine once you adjust YOUR expectations to a reasonable request, that is an issue that does not improve with age or with a widening circle of interactions with the bigger world. 

The line between respectful parenting and catering to unreasonable expectations gets blurred easily. And then the child runs into people who can't or won't set up his life the way family has. It is a difficult situation.

But she's talking about taking a bike ride on a whim, not a chore or a math assignment or even a planned family activity. I mean, if a kid doesn't want to do that, why shouldn't he be in charge of himself? Some people are good with sudden changes and suggestions and are happy to drop everything and be spontaneous. Others aren't. That's a pretty normal personality thing. Can you imagine trying to force an adult to spontaneously do whatever purely recreational thing you feel like it's time to do when they're in the middle of something else? For this kid, it's like that.

The other day, ds was like, let's go to the pool. No plan. I said, okay. Let's go. I went and got dressed. He tried to needle his brother into going. There was no reason he couldn't have. But he didn't feel like it and doesn't like those sorts of spontaneous plans as much. So he didn't go. Which was fine and not a moral failing on his part.

[unsinkable]

7 minutes ago, Farrar said:

But she's talking about taking a bike ride on a whim, not a chore or a math assignment or even a planned family activity. I mean, if a kid doesn't want to do that, why shouldn't he be in charge of himself? Some people are good with sudden changes and suggestions and are happy to drop everything and be spontaneous. Others aren't. That's a pretty normal personality thing. Can you imagine trying to force an adult to spontaneously do whatever purely recreational thing you feel like it's time to do when they're in the middle of something else? For this kid, it's like that.

The other day, ds was like, let's go to the pool. No plan. I said, okay. Let's go. I went and got dressed. He tried to needle his brother into going. There was no reason he couldn't have. But he didn't feel like it and doesn't like those sorts of spontaneous plans as much. So he didn't go. Which was fine and not a moral failing on his part.

I'm taking what she said as a whole about her son and everyone's interactions, not the just the example of the bike ride.

Why did you have to throw in "not a moral failing"?

I didn't use that type of language. To me, it is an issue of finding the line between respectful parenting and catering to unreasonable expectations. And when a mom uses language like he "HATES being told what to do" it is a red flag for me.

[Farrar]

7 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

I'm taking what she said as a whole about her son and everyone's interactions, not the just the example of the bike ride.

Why did you have to throw in "not a moral failing"?

I didn't use that type of language. To me, it is an issue of finding the line between respectful parenting and catering to unreasonable expectations. And when a mom uses language like he "HATES being told what to do" it is a red flag for me.

Okay, fine. My kid not going to the pool even though his brother and I said, hey, let's go to the pool is not an indication of disrespect for me in any way, shape, or form. It's also not an reasonable expectation that I should be able to, on a whim, make my kid do something recreational.

I don't think hating being told what to do is a failing or a sign of disrespect. It's an emotion. My kids' emotional response to something is not disrespectful. Behavior and how they express that emotion might be. But hating having to do whatever others say, especially when it comes to something purely for fun... that's not a problem. 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Farrar

[unsinkable]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Okay, fine. My kid not going to the pool even though his brother and I said, hey, let's go to the pool is not an indication of disrespect for me in any way, shape, or form. It's also not an unreasonable expectation that I should be able to, on a whim, make my kid do something recreational.

I don't think hating being told what to do is a failing or a sign of disrespect. It's an emotion. My kids' emotional response to something is not disrespectful. Behavior and how they express that emotion might be. But hating having to do whatever others say, especially when it comes to something purely for fun... that's not a problem. 

Why are you talking about disrespect? 

By "respectful parenting" I mean giving a child the respect to make decisions for himself, like: "We're planning  on a bike ride after lunch" not "you're being disrespectful bc you don't want to go on a bike ride. "

It seems like you're reading things I am not writing.

 

[freesia]

1 hour ago, lovinmyboys said:

 

I should have made this my main question, maybe. I, of course, think ds should do what he is told in lots of things-put your dishes away, shut the door, take your shoes off, play quieter, etc.

The problem is my dad will decide he wants to take the kids on a bike ride, then expect ds to just stop what he is doing and go. That is totally fine for my other kids-they have no problem with it. Ds is just not good with stuff like that. He HATES being told what to do. I don’t know how to explain it very well. If I decide we are going on a family bike ride, I tell him in advance so he can prepare and he usually does fine. And, I don’t make too many demands like that in a day. Honestly, other than what has to be done, I try not to make him do more than a couple of other things (even fun things). My dad thinks he can direct his whole day, and ds can’t handle it. I would like for my dad to not “make” him do things that are really optional. But my dad just doesn’t get that at all. He would just say he is the adult and kids don’t get a say. When I have tried to talk to him about it, he basically makes it all about ds misbehaving without acknowledging his role in it. 

I get it. It seems ridiculous that ds wouldn’t want to go on a bike ride (or whatever), but I really don’t want to fight him about things that are supposed to be fun. And ds shouldn’t be rude about it, but I think he doesn’t know how to handle it because my dad won’t take no for an answer. What I would like is for him to be able to say “no thank you grandpa” and that be acceptable.

Ah, ok. That’s different from what I was thinking.  I do think he should be able to opt out of a bike ride.

(and, I’m assuming he does get practice doing things he hates to do at times.  But, I think grandparents aren’t the ones to teach this—other than the yes, you are visiting your grandparents kind of lesson or, once there, you don’t spend your entire time on an advice—all of this parent directed.)

Maybe your family could come up with activity ideas together.

[wintermom]

Does your dad's behaviour surprise you? Wasn't he like this when you were a kid? He sounds kind of military-style. Sounds like he may be connecting with your boys in a very different way than you experienced or remember.  For some personality types, this seems pretty standard stuff among guys. They may playfully comment on the chubby thing with no intent at all to be cruel. 

If your dad is generally a good hearted guy, with a certain style of language use and loads of energy and time to spend with the newly moved grandsons, I'd not freak out. He'll eventually run out of energy and interest, and your family's lives will get really busy. It takes time to build relationships with people close to home. As you pointed out, your dc have only gotten to know your dad via long distance, and vice versa. 

 

Edited August 10, 2019 by wintermom

[fairfarmhand]

One thing to point out to your son (not that your son is necessarily in the wrong here) is that sometimes we need to humor those who are trying to connect with us. Like my dh can ask me to come to his softball games. Not because I love softball and enjoy sweating and being eaten by mosquitoes but because he genuinely wants me there. And I love him, so I do it. And when I get there, I really do have a lot of fun.

like I tell my kids to eat granny’s not so tasty canned biscuits or at least make a show of it, because she wants to connect with them in that way. It won’t kill my kids to take 2 bites of a canned biscuit. 

Your dad may be reacting poorly because he wants to connect with your son and takes it personally that he’s been “rejected”. We have family members like that (yes, it’s immature and terribly un-selfaware but it is what it is) I know it’s not your sons job to protect granddads feelings, but sometimes understanding where granddad is coming from can help the kids react in ways to stop weird dynamics. As in “no thanks on the bike ride but I’d love to play checkers when you get back.” 

Your son is young for this but in time, learning to manage difficult people is a good skill that will serve him well.

so how to have the conversation:

”son, grandpa wants to enjoy time with you and maybe it hurts his feelings that you didn’t think bike riding with granddad sounded like fun. Yeah, he reacted badly and that part wasn’t cool. Maybe next time say no ‘Thanks but I’d like to play a game in awhile’ that will reassure granddad that you really want to hang out with him, even if it’s not riding bikes.”

it may take lots of conversations with your son to help him start figuring out how people might interprets things. I have a defiant kid and she had no idea how she came off to others. 

Edited August 10, 2019 by fairfarmhand

[Pen]

Sounds like your dad and the Ds he clashes with could have similar personalities.  Both want to be in control.  

[prairiewindmomma]

It’s a huge shift, isn’t it?!!

I would, at this point, do some talking afterwards with your kids and just watch and wait. 

We did the opposite—lived close by then moved far away. When we are visiting each other I see things differently in the relationships than I did when we were close by. 

[katilac]

I would regard comments about weight to be the biggest issue, that's the one I'd address head-on with ABSOLUTELY NOT. I would tell him privately and also have a gameplan for addressing it in the moment. I personally had no problem with telling a grandparent they were being rude, lol. Some things I can let go, sure, but not messing with a kid's self-esteem and body image. 

Are you usually with them when these things occur? It's easier if you take the lead at first, but I would also equip the kids with stock phrases to use in response. 

When you talk about my big belly, you hurt my feelings. 

My body is my own business and no one else's. 

I don't like last-minute plans. It doesn't mean I don't want to do things with you. 

And so on. 

5 hours ago, unsinkable said:

  And when a mom uses language like he "HATES being told what to do" it is a red flag for me.

Really? Because I know lots of people who HATE being told what to do. That basically describes 70% of my extended family. 

[katilac]

5 minutes ago, Pen said:

Sounds like your dad and the Ds he clashes with could have similar personalities.  Both want to be in control.  

Very good point. 

[unsinkable]

8 minutes ago, katilac said:

I would regard comments about weight to be the biggest issue, that's the one I'd address head-on with ABSOLUTELY NOT. I would tell him privately and also have a gameplan for addressing it in the moment. I personally had no problem with telling a grandparent they were being rude, lol. Some things I can let go, sure, but not messing with a kid's self-esteem and body image. 

Are you usually with them when these things occur? It's easier if you take the lead at first, but I would also equip the kids with stock phrases to use in response. 

When you talk about my big belly, you hurt my feelings. 

My body is my own business and no one else's. 

I don't like last-minute plans. It doesn't mean I don't want to do things with you. 

And so on. 

Really? Because I know lots of people who HATE being told what to do. That basically describes 70% of my extended family. 

Yes, really. But you edited out much of what I said. Taken as a whole, along with everything else lovinmyboys wrote about her son,...it is a red flag TO ME. 

YMMV

[katilac]

8 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

 But you edited out much of what I said.  

Yes, I almost always edit quoted posts for brevity because the original post is still there, but I was responding to all of what you said. 

[unsinkable]

5 minutes ago, katilac said:

Yes, I almost always edit quoted posts for brevity because the original post is still there, but I was responding to all of what you said. 

ISWYDT

[katilac]

2 hours ago, wintermom said:

Does your dad's behaviour surprise you? Wasn't he like this when you were a kid?  

Remember, she's been away for a long time! And I think we often forget (at least in the moment) many of the differences between our upbringing and our own parenting style. Or we just don't think twice about it because we're so used to in in the context of our own upbringing, as opposed to the context of our children. I know that I've told my kids stories about my childhood, not thinking they were that unusual, and they were pretty taken aback, lol. That's with me doing heavy editing and not even going near the stuff I know would shock or dismay them. That's my long way of saying that I don't think it's odd for her to be a bit surprised by her dad's behavior even if he acted that way when she was a child. 

[katilac]

2 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

ISWYDT

I don't get what you mean here (I get the literal meaning) but I think we may be talking past each other at this point. 

[unsinkable]

7 minutes ago, katilac said:

I don't get what you mean here (I get the literal meaning) but I think we may be talking past each other at this point. 

I was making a joke bc you edited my post where I said *you edited my post.*

As to talking past each other...

I feel there is a difference between hating being told what to do and HATING to be told what to do, along with all the other things lovinmyboys said in her post.

[Storygirl]

I am taking a shot in the dark here, but does your son have autism, OP? I see some things in your post that suggest that might be the case. If so, I think that standard advice about how to handle navigating the boy-grandfather relationship may not necessarily apply.

[unsinkable]

10 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I am taking a shot in the dark here, but does your son have autism, OP? I see some things in your post that suggest that might be the case. If so, I think that standard advice about how to handle navigating the boy-grandfather relationship may not necessarily apply.

Well, if we're going right in on the internet diagnosis, I was thinking anxiety. Or a anxiety with something else.

I don't know, obviously, b c I only have these couple posts. 

[Shoeless]

@lovinmyboys Do your son and his grandpa have anything in common?  If so, can you direct both of them into pre-planned activities for the things they have in common? 

My dad has a lot of firm beliefs that "All Boys Should..." and "All Boys Like...", and it's almost always a lot of stereotypical boy stuff that my son doesn't like and really isn't necessary to becoming a decent human being.  The thing that has sort-of worked is finding something they both like and planning time for the two of them to do the thing together.  I take the decision making out of Dad's hands, because when left to his own devices, he steamrolls over everyone around him and my kid ends up in tears.  

This hasn't "fixed" the problem but it has increased the number of positive grandpa/grandson interactions and decreased the number of times my son has burst into tears of frustration after dealing with his grandfather.  It is absolutely exhausting to me that I have to do this, but it is what it is. 

I also wanted to add that none of what OP described necessarily means her kid is autistic or has anxiety. Some kids simply have very strong personalities, likes, and dislikes.  It is not the case that every child who acts in ways adults dislike needs a diagnosis. 

[Corraleno]

23 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I also wanted to add that none of what OP described necessarily means her kid is autistic or has anxiety. Some kids simply have very strong personalities, likes, and dislikes.  It is not the case that every child who acts in ways adults dislike needs a diagnosis. 

This.

I am a card-carrying member of the hate-being-told-what-to-do club, and have been since birth. On my 1st grade report card I had top marks in every area except "respects authority" — and my 6-yr-old self was incensed that was even a category, lol. My personality was a not a good match with a mother who expected "first time cheerful obedience," and I often wonder, had I been born a few decades later, if she would have insisted on some kind of "diagnosis" in order to pathologize what was just a strong personality. 

Echoing what someone posted upthread about control, I do think the desire to be in control of what I do (and what is done to/for me) is definitely a component of it. But I don't see that as a bad thing at all — in fact, I would say that's a trait that has served me pretty well in life.

[katilac]

2 hours ago, unsinkable said:

I was making a joke bc you edited my post where I said *you edited my post.*

ahhhh, I am slow . . . 

[Pen]

Is the son with comments about belly the same son as the one who doesn’t want to do what grandpa wants?  Or two different boys?

if the same boy, is the not wanting to do things related to hurt feelings about belly comments?

[Garga]

13 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

 

I should have made this my main question, maybe. I, of course, think ds should do what he is told in lots of things-put your dishes away, shut the door, take your shoes off, play quieter, etc.

The problem is my dad will decide he wants to take the kids on a bike ride, then expect ds to just stop what he is doing and go. That is totally fine for my other kids-they have no problem with it. Ds is just not good with stuff like that. He HATES being told what to do. I don’t know how to explain it very well. If I decide we are going on a family bike ride, I tell him in advance so he can prepare and he usually does fine. And, I don’t make too many demands like that in a day. Honestly, other than what has to be done, I try not to make him do more than a couple of other things (even fun things). My dad thinks he can direct his whole day, and ds can’t handle it. I would like for my dad to not “make” him do things that are really optional. But my dad just doesn’t get that at all. He would just say he is the adult and kids don’t get a say. When I have tried to talk to him about it, he basically makes it all about ds misbehaving without acknowledging his role in it. 

I get it. It seems ridiculous that ds wouldn’t want to go on a bike ride (or whatever), but I really don’t want to fight him about things that are supposed to be fun. And ds shouldn’t be rude about it, but I think he doesn’t know how to handle it because my dad won’t take no for an answer. What I would like is for him to be able to say “no thank you grandpa” and that be acceptable.

 

My kids are the same way.  For entirely too long, I would try to do spontaneous things with them and would be unhappily surprised when they didn’t want to do the fun things.  Like, “Hey! I just realized that if we get dressed really quick, we can make it to the matinee of X movie!  Let’s go!”  And then they’d whiiiine and be miserable.  I finally had to learn that things I thought were fun, weren’t fun if the other people involved weren’t having fun.  🙂 

My kids are introverted and like a lot of downtime.  The idea of jumping up and going somewhere on the spur of the moment exhausts them and uses up a lot of their energy.  But spontaneous extroverts do not get that.  

 

6 hours ago, katilac said:

Remember, she's been away for a long time! And I think we often forget (at least in the moment) many of the differences between our upbringing and our own parenting style. Or we just don't think twice about it because we're so used to in in the context of our own upbringing, as opposed to the context of our children. I know that I've told my kids stories about my childhood, not thinking they were that unusual, and they were pretty taken aback, lol. That's with me doing heavy editing and not even going near the stuff I know would shock or dismay them. That's my long way of saying that I don't think it's odd for her to be a bit surprised by her dad's behavior even if he acted that way when she was a child. 

 

I’ve done the same thing with my kids: mentioned things from my childhood, even toning them down.  They look at me a little slack jawed and say, “Wow, Mom.  Your childhood sucked.”  In a lot of ways it sure did, but I forget that now because I’m so far removed from it.  (I’m 46 and have lived away from my parents since I was 22.)

5 hours ago, Storygirl said:

I am taking a shot in the dark here, but does your son have autism, OP? I see some things in your post that suggest that might be the case. If so, I think that standard advice about how to handle navigating the boy-grandfather relationship may not necessarily apply.

 

I wasn’t thinking flat out autism, but there certainly is a personality type that cannot handle transitions well at all—sometimes the person has autism, adhd, anxiety, or some other such thing, but sometimes it’s just the personality.  

————

As far as what to do:

1.  It’s easy to tell him to stop with the comments about ds’s weight.  That’s clear cut.  A ton of kids go through a chubby stage.  I have pictures of my kids going through chubby stages.  Most of the time they grow out of it, and sometimes they don’t, but either way it never helps to have grandpa point it out.  Tell grandpa, “Kids go through stages like this—they get wide and then they get tall.  It’s normal.  But you’re making ds feel really bad about it and there’s nothing he can do if it’s a normal stage.  Stop pointing it out.  If it turns out it’s not a stage, then I’ll look into changing his diet if that becomes an issue.”

2.  The racism.  Ugh.  This is tricky.  Everything in the US right now is racism, racism, racism. From my point of view, that’s a good thing—we’re trying to be aware and change things.  But from the racist’s point of view, it just means that you’re getting on the liberal racism bandwagon and it’s all manufactured by the media and isn’t real and you’re being really annoying because you’re mindless and following the crowd.  Here is how I’ve started handling conversations with people where I disagree: 

 

I don’t say the words that the woman on the left who is pro-education uses, since I’m not talking about eduction for women, but I use her tone.  “Oh no.  No.  I don’t agree with those words,” (said very, very gently and politely.)  “I think that calling people “illegals” isn’t a very nice thing.  I prefer to say “illegal immigrants.”  Watch the video.  See how she stays calm and sweet through the whole thing, but says her piece.  

Every time Grandpa says things you don’t agree with, I’d channel that lady.  “Oh no.  No I don’t agree.”  No one is yelling or accusing.  You’re just having a very quiet, gentle disagreement.

3.  For the difficulty your son has with unexpected transitions...not sure. I’d be clear that I agree that ds should obey with things like chores. But I’d probably try to find some articles about people who don’t transition well and start talking it over with grandpa.  Or read the articles for yourself and see exactly what your ds needs (at least 2 hour’s notice...at least 24 hours’ notice?) and start sharing them with grandpa.  Let GP know it’s not a thing that only your son does, but is actually pretty common.  And ask him to have a little grace toward your son and be the fun grandad who doesn’t force your son to do “fun” things that aren’t fun for him at all.  But that one might be harder to implement, because it would require GP having compassion that he just might not have.  

 

[lovinmyboys]

Thanks. This has given me lots to think about. I think I will have to say something to my dad. 

The ds my dad made the chubby comments to is very easy going, so I don’t think it bothered him, but it is still rude and I don’t want him to be self conscious. I think he is just going through a chubby stage right now, so I haven’t been worried about it.

My ds who had problems with my dad is not as easy going. I don’t think he has any diagnosis, but I do think his personality and environment aren’t always a good match. I think he would love to have a slow paced routine where most things stay the same. That isn’t really the life we lead, so I try to give him a lot of grace about not doing optional things. He is also an introvert, and my dad as an extrovert just doesn’t understand that ds is not trying to offend him if he doesn’t want to do something-he just needs downtime. This ds is elementary age, so still pretty young. 

I have been surprised about how my dad is. Looking back, some of it shouldn’t be surprising. I haven’t lived near him since I went away to college, so I forget some things about him. Also, I think he has gotten older and maybe more set in his ways. 

[Pen]

Probably both the chubby and introvert issues can be explained to your dad privately.  

I like the film Garga linked above as approach to handle racism comments.  The Oh, no, no, I don’t agree at all.  I’m planning to practice it for when I need it.

my father refers to “lady doctors” as distinct apparently from regular doctors.  I’ve tried “oh, do you mean an OBGYN specialist for women?” Even if clear he is talking about his own orthopedic specialist. 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by Pen

[unsinkable]

On 8/10/2019 at 11:17 PM, lovinmyboys said:

Thanks. This has given me lots to think about. I think I will have to say something to my dad. 

The ds my dad made the chubby comments to is very easy going, so I don’t think it bothered him, but it is still rude and I don’t want him to be self conscious. I think he is just going through a chubby stage right now, so I haven’t been worried about it.

My ds who had problems with my dad is not as easy going. I don’t think he has any diagnosis, but I do think his personality and environment aren’t always a good match. I think he would love to have a slow paced routine where most things stay the same. That isn’t really the life we lead, so I try to give him a lot of grace about not doing optional things. He is also an introvert, and my dad as an extrovert just doesn’t understand that ds is not trying to offend him if he doesn’t want to do something-he just needs downtime. This ds is elementary age, so still pretty young. 

I have been surprised about how my dad is. Looking back, some of it shouldn’t be surprising. I haven’t lived near him since I went away to college, so I forget some things about him. Also, I think he has gotten older and maybe more set in his ways. 

I hope I am wrong about thinking it might be anxiety related, the same way when someone posts about medical issues and I see indications of epilepsy. But I do feel (just like I do with epilepsy) that I should say something and be wrong rather than not say something and maybe you could have gotten some new info.

I do think it is possible, no matter the issue, to address making an ally of your father in the way you parent your kids. Appeal to your shared goals and ask for his help.

As for a kid who is not a people pleaser and who also hates being told what to do: 

For parents who have kids like this (not adults like this): IMO, It is really difficult bc parents are trying to raise and socialize these kids to eventually leave home and function in society. Simple social unspoken agreements can potentially become issues when the parent tries to explain them and teach them to this type of kid. 

 for example: Stay right: on a walking path or public stairways or entering a double doorway. It's not a law. It is for safety and politeness. It's to get along with other people. So a parent has teach/model how to appropriately respond when kid *hates* being told what to do ("stay right") as well as convince the same kid (who is not a people pleaser) that some things we do aren't simply for ourselves.

now I understand none of this might apply to you nor anyone else on the board. I also don't want to make your child the issue. This is just what I am familiar with and what I thought of when I read your post. I hope that makes sense. 

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by unsinkable
Typo

[Jaz]

My ds has always needed time to process a request. It's just how his brain works. If your son is the same way, you need to tell your dad not to critique your son for that. 

Also, I'd call your dad on both the racist comments and weight comments to your son. You need to set very strong boundaries. Your children shouldn't be exposed to this.

ETA: Oops, just saw you are going to talk with your dad. Good for you!

Edited August 12, 2019 by Jaz

[scrapbookbuzz]

You say to you dad, "I love you, Dad, and I am thankful that we have the opportunity to live close by! You raised us kids the way
you believed to be best, and now I'm raising my own kids the way I believe to best. That's what you taught me, to raise my kids the 
way I think is best. And one of the ways I've noticed my kids respond best to is positive encouragement. They're also very smart kids.
I'm sure they would love to hear about the fond memories you have of when you were growing up." Or, you can assign your kids a project
of "interviewing Grandpa" with questions pertinent to that. I'm sure he'd love it! It may just be that your dad really does want to interact and 
engage with your kids but he's not sure HOW since there has been that physical distance from him for so long. All of this is new for him, too.
Many people just aren't good around new situations even when they want to be a part of it. 

You could even have Grandpa and your kids do a family tree project together. Believe me, even if your kids groan at this at first, they will 
eventually come to appreciate it! Both of my parents are gone now, and I wish I had paid more attention to working on a family tree with them!