sibling bickering and fighting all.day.long

[caedmyn]

My older 4 kids (13, 10, 8, and 6) literally spend all day every day doing things to aggravate each other.  The 6 yo is mostly being aggravated by the others and not so much being an initiator, but the others are full-fledged "anything I can think of to do to my siblings I will" members.  DS10 spit water on DD13 at the park today, so she dumped a bowlful of water on him when they got him.  Now he's swearing vengeance on her.  This is just one example of the many, many things they've done to each other just today.  This goes on all.day.long every.single.day.  I have not found a consequence that has any effect.  Apparently the joys of causing your siblings to shriek outweighs any possible consequences mom can give.  Has anyone dealt with this?  Any suggestions on getting them to STOP (other than shipping them all off to boarding school, which often sounds like a fabulous idea if only I could get DH to agree).

[Jean in Newcastle]

Is this done in anger or fun?  Because I could see it being fun pranks being pulled on each other and not necessarily done out of anger.  What made me think of it being done as pranks is when you said "the joys of causing your siblings to shriek".  But you are there and know the tone.  (And I recognize that sometimes kids do things as pranks and then go too far and it becomes anger so it might not be just one or the other. . . ) 

Edited July 1, 2019 by Jean in Newcastle
homophones matter

[Garga]

Are they happy “getting” each other all day long?  Or are they miserable?  

Do they share bedrooms?  

If they’re miserable, can you say, “I’m tired of this.  This makes me on edge all day and I can’t take another minute of it.  For the next week (4 days, 3 days, whatever), none of you are allowed to be in the same rooms together.”

And then can you put them in separate places in the house?  They can eat separately and play separately and come out for mom-time separately?

If they’re happy to “get” each other all day long and it’s a game to them, can you tell them to stay outside and happily pester each other there so you don’t have to be involved?  Let them know that when they’re done getting each other, they can come in, but if they start up the antics again, out they go (or to separate parts of the house they go.)

Edited July 1, 2019 by Garga

[Garga]

At first I was thinking you could tomato stake them, but I’m not sure how you tomato stake 4 children at the same time.  If only one of them was the instigator, you could stake that child. 

Perhaps you can stake all four.  They’d have to stay with you every-single-minute-of-the-day and you’d have to intervene and teach with every incidence of pestering.  

I’m not sure I’d be able to handle that.  It sounds exhausting with four kids.  But...it could be done.

(Do you know what tomato staking is?)

[Garga]

Tomato staking:  https://meaningfulmama.com/the-day-i-tomato-staked-my-children.html

Looks like it can be done with groups of kids.  I only have 2, so I’ve never tomato staked more than one kid at a time.

I’m not sure how everyone else does it, but for me, it was a gentle thing.  Lots and lots of time with Mom being there to guide and teach in the moments when my little tomato was growing out of control.  It’s not meant to be punitive.   

Edited July 1, 2019 by Garga

[prairiewindmomma]

How much structure do they have in their daily schedule? How much physical activity are they getting (ie—sensory input as I think some of your kids need that from your other posts). I have a couple of kids that go looking for trouble if left to their own devices. 

My kids each have a morning list of chores and of school/educational activities that they do each day. One of their chores daily is training on a skill to the point of mastery so that they can perform a higher level household task. As an example, my ten year old is learning to use the oven appropriately this summer as she will be stepping up from meal ingredient prep (cutting veg and fruit) to actually using the oven. I supervise on the stepping-up chores directly daily. 

I have a really low tolerance for squabbling and picking fights. I don’t want that to become an ingrained behavior in my kids. It still happens, multiple times a day because kids are kids, but often one kid is interpreting behavior through a skewed lens (makes themselves the victim) and part of my job is to work with that. We have a lot of direction conversations using the social thinking tools that are out there. 

Are you needing a break and to recharge? Parenting is intensive, and generally it’s when I check out physically or emotionally that the behaviors start to ramp up.

[HS Mom in NC]

The example you give of what your kids are doing made me smile and think of all the fun my 3 older brothers and I had "getting each other" all summer long as kids....and then as adults.  We even had summer long, ongoing, squirt gun wars in the house.  There were sneak attacks and reprisals.  We we each had guns hidden all over the house and at any moment someone could jump out and squirt a passerby.

When we were kids one of my brothers was famous for walking down the field next to someone and grabbing them and the hot wire at the same time, allowing the current to go through him and zap the person he grabbed...He's an electrician now.

When my brothers heard my husband does this weird thing where he won't order the same dish someone else at the table orders in a restaurant they decided the next time we all ate out together they'd let him go first and then all of them would order the thing he did.  When he changed his order at the end they'd all decide to change theirs to match his just to irritate him.

One of my brothers is very artistic and fussy about his elegant Christmas decorations.  He also hates the color blue.  We haven't been able to pull it off yet, but one year when he's hosting another Christmas party we're going to go over there and take down all this decorations and put up ugly blue ones, but we have to time it so he doesn't have time to change it back before the event.  Coordinating schedules, especially that time of year,  is hard and now I live across the country.

As adults we've had an ongoing croquet competition at family gatherings and one of my brothers (they've sworn a blood oath to never reveal who did it) once stole the trophy when my husband won it (Yes, there's a trophy that gets passed from winner to winner) and left a ransom note with letters cut out of magazine reading, "No cops, or the trophy gets it." So we did what any mature 30 something couple with children would do, we got into their houses under false pretenses and stole all their remotes.  After a few days of what we were sure was marital discord, we called and explained that the remotes would be returned when the trophy came back to us.  One night it was left in front of the front door, the doorbell was rung, and no one could be seen.  

Are you an only child?  Did you and your siblings not do stuff like that?

[HS Mom in NC]

If you need a break from kid antics you might want to try quiet time.  My mother had a hard and fast policy for several summers that everyone had to be in their bedrooms and doing nothing that could be heard from outside the bedroom from 2-4.  She read and napped then because she got up really early and stayed up really late so she could be outside during the cooler hours in the AZ heat. We could eat, read, draw, play with toys, nap, contemplate our navels, plot our next move in the ongoing squirt guns wars, or whatever, but we had to do it in our rooms and keep it quiet from 2-4.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[mmasc]

When mine are pester-y to the point of it just being plain annoying to all involved (meaning they aren’t playing and enjoying it), I have them exercise. The oldest two can run around the block separately without me, the youngest can do something physical in the yard. It’s a lot harder to bicker when they’re hot and exhausted. 🙂 it sounds like with the bickering and the loud noise in the house (other thread), I’d be sending them out every chance possible for outdoor time. If they can’t play without involving you, then mark off areas of the yard they can play in separately.  Will they play water guns outdoors well together? Or bubbles? Or sidewalk chalk? 

Edited July 1, 2019 by mmasc

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, caedmyn said:

DS10 spit water on DD13 at the park today, so she dumped a bowlful of water on him when they got him.  Now he's swearing vengeance on her. 

So the interesting question is how this ds10 is thinking through the cause/effect here. On the one hand, it sounds like there's some normal payback kind of stuff that is how kids (siblings or no) would push back on each other and help the other person learn what isn't acceptable. But if say one of the parties DOESN'T HAVE GOOD SOCIAL THINKING, then maybe the kid doesn't GET that sequence of cause/effect. Maybe he only remembers the last thing (that he got water dumped on him) and doesn't figure out the sequence that got him there.

So if there's a social thinking deficit like that, yeah you've got an issue. If not, if they're all just having a good time, then it might be in the realm of good-natured fun and learning. But if one of them isn't learning and picking up the clue-phone, then that's your social thinking piece to intervene on. So you wouldn't do consequences but instruction. They'll call it a social autopsy or social behavior mapping, where you explicitly help him see the cause/effect of his actions (and how many stages that can go through!).

Personally, I'd give 'em all stiff doses of chamomile or caffeine. (caffeine for the ADHD, chamomile as a chill pill) If they're ADHD enough, sometimes you can even zonk 'em out with enough caffeine. It's almost creepy.

Edited July 1, 2019 by PeterPan

[alisoncooks]

I'd send them out back with some water balloons/nerf guns/boxes to make forts-capture the flag/etc. and let them go to it. Maybe they'd get it all out of their system outside.

If that doesn't work, manual labor. 😉

[HS Mom in NC]

3 minutes ago, alisoncooks said:

 

If that doesn't work, manual labor. 😉

My mother's superpower is making up extra chores on the spot.  Since we lived on a farm we always had a list of chores to do, but she could always come up with additional chores for pesky children irritating her and each other no matter how many chores had been completed that day.  It's a gift really.

[Storygirl]

I think the water play example suggests that this could all be fun and games that just irritates mom.

But there is a chance that there is some actual anger and malice happening in the household. I know that growing up with a brother who was always picking on me was not only unpleasant for me but actually negatively affected our entire family dynamic. My mom was always at wit's end. I was always unhappy. In that kind of situation (which is more what I am imagining that the OP means), some parental intervention is needed. And the trouble is that parental intervention often does not end up changing behavior for the better, and the cycle continues.

I don't have answers. My experience as a kid was hard. I don't have any magic answers as a parent. I do think that adding structure can help. That's what my solution is when dealing with my kids (we also have squabbling that turns to meanness). But it has been more a method of managing it than a solution.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Storygirl

[kiwik]

11 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

The example you give of what your kids are doing made me smile and think of all the fun my 3 older brothers and I had "getting each other" all summer long as kids....and then as adults.  We even had summer long, ongoing, squirt gun wars in the house.  There were sneak attacks and reprisals.  We we each had guns hidden all over the house and at any moment someone could jump out and squirt a passerby.

When we were kids one of my brothers was famous for walking down the field next to someone and grabbing them and the hot wire at the same time, allowing the current to go through him and zap the person he grabbed...He's an electrician now.

When my brothers heard my husband does this weird thing where he won't order the same dish someone else at the table orders in a restaurant they decided the next time we all ate out together they'd let him go first and then all of them would order the thing he did.  When he changed his order at the end they'd all decide to change theirs to match his just to irritate him.

One of my brothers is very artistic and fussy about his elegant Christmas decorations.  He also hates the color blue.  We haven't been able to pull it off yet, but one year when he's hosting another Christmas party we're going to go over there and take down all this decorations and put up ugly blue ones, but we have to time it so he doesn't have time to change it back before the event.  Coordinating schedules, especially that time of year,  is hard and now I live across the country.

As adults we've had an ongoing croquet competition at family gatherings and one of my brothers (they've sworn a blood oath to never reveal who did it) once stole the trophy when my husband won it (Yes, there's a trophy that gets passed from winner to winner) and left a ransom note with letters cut out of magazine reading, "No cops, or the trophy gets it." So we did what any mature 30 something couple with children would do, we got into their houses under false pretenses and stole all their remotes.  After a few days of what we were sure was marital discord, we called and explained that the remotes would be returned when the trophy came back to us.  One night it was left in front of the front door, the doorbell was rung, and no one could be seen.  

Are you an only child?  Did you and your siblings not do stuff like that?

I have 7 siblings and can honestly say we never did anything like that.

[BlsdMama]

11 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

My mother's superpower is making up extra chores on the spot.  Since we lived on a farm we always had a list of chores to do, but she could always come up with additional chores for pesky children irritating her and each other no matter how many chores had been completed that day.  It's a gift really.

And it's something that must be cultivated, nurtured. 😉
The upside is that, as they give you opportunity to practice it, the gift really becomes finely honed, it's one of the great gifts of large families.

 

13 hours ago, caedmyn said:

My older 4 kids (13, 10, 8, and 6) literally spend all day every day doing things to aggravate each other.  The 6 yo is mostly being aggravated by the others and not so much being an initiator, but the others are full-fledged "anything I can think of to do to my siblings I will" members.  DS10 spit water on DD13 at the park today, so she dumped a bowlful of water on him when they got him.  Now he's swearing vengeance on her.  This is just one example of the many, many things they've done to each other just today.  This goes on all.day.long every.single.day.  I have not found a consequence that has any effect.  Apparently the joys of causing your siblings to shriek outweighs any possible consequences mom can give.  Has anyone dealt with this?  Any suggestions on getting them to STOP (other than shipping them all off to boarding school, which often sounds like a fabulous idea if only I could get DH to agree).

So, I'd say, yes, normal kid behavior.
I'd say, yes, absolutely irritating.
Yes, needs to be dealt with.

And that's the most aggravating thing - that siblings fight AND we have to come up with some kind of a way to deal with it.  SMH.  It's exhausting.
Comforting story to ensue:  I've worked INSANELY hard to make my kids get along, keep them near me, deal with issues.  One day, getting ready for co-op, my oldest (EIGHTH GRADE AT THE TIME!!!) was cutting something and her younger brother (about 10/11) was teasing her and grabbed the knife.  (It was little in the grand scheme of things, sigh.)  She grabbed it back, running it through his hand, slicing him.  He swore it was intentional.  She is about the most level-headed, calm, sweet human ever, but I admit he knew just how to push her button. Yes.  Great mothering moment.  I think that was the day I got to co-op late AND cried.  It was epic.

 Noticing you have a oldest daughter/younger son combo (extra fun - only to be beat by middle older kid, boy, with a know-it-all little sister) I'd have to say that I would start treating the 13yo as a sidekick and older than her siblings.  That should inspire older behavior in her in the next year or two.  But, I'd also say that will, in spectacular cascade effect, inspire the 10yo to push her further to watch her to lose her cool.  Nip that in the bud.

So, I would suspect that the only place you're going wrong is that you might believe that for a consequence to be effective, it needs to completely stop the behavior.  The answer is no.  Repeatedly, and over time, as we associate negative consequences with poor choice, we choose differently.  So, a consequence here may not have stopped it happening TODAY, but it is still noble and worthwhile 😉 because it stopped it at that moment and diverted the energy to something else.  

Work hard to attempt to separate stupid and childish (normal and requires chastisement and a long, deep sigh) with ornery.  Ornery gets oh so many chores.  Childish and stupid gets, "Knock it off and don't be a dolt."  Assuming said child then obeys, it can stop there. If they don't, then that's ignoring mom, which then opens a whole different can of worms and your yard will look amazing.

Try to focus on the intention of the kids - if it was just impulsive water play?  That's just kids.  If it's ornery, that needs to be dealt with.  I'm not a fan of spitting so that would have made me mad.  The whole vengeance thing - whether in play or in seriousness would have ended up with one of those annoying long lectures and a plan of how he can fill his time in the afternoon otherwise engaged until he changes his thinking.  

I think the best consequences are immediate stopping BEFORE it gets out of hand, sit them down next to you, let them watch the other two play at the park... It's the kind of, "This is why we can't have nice things," lecture turned onto them, "This is why you can do nothing fun." And I might be tempted to stay a little extra long at the park to drive home the consequence and under NO circumstances, if I truly wanted the behavior to stop, would I have let them play at the park any longer that day, because it sends a clear message of, "Get along when we come here or life is unhappy and I'll stick with it."  Then go back to the park every day this week for extra practice on how to play nice at the park, kwim?

[lavender's green]

I think a lot depends on if everyone's having fun or not. My boys sometimes do this constant low-level puppy playfighting thing. I find it immensely irritating, especially because it can quickly get out of hand. But they're having fun, so.... I announce that they have to do it upstairs or outside, and don't come crying to me when someone gets hurt (okay, in reality I will go and dry tears and separate them and everything, I'm just trying to get them to realize that playfighting can have painful consequences, and that if you can't handle them you shouldn't engage).

If the kid's just being a dumb impulsive kid, I nip it in the bud. A quick scolding, and a stern warning that they will lose screen time at the end of the day. And I follow up on that.

If it's actually mean-spirited, and it's happening repeatedly, I start assigning chores. If everyone's having a bad run of mean-spirited fighting, I take a zero-tolerance stance. My rule then is, you fight, you scrub. If you complain about scrubbing or do it badly, you get an extra minute for each infraction. Usually just the threat of this, or one scrubbing session, solves the problem.

Adding structure to the day is really helpful. Me being rested and at the top of my game is helpful. The other day I was so impressed with their behavior that I gave them all ice cream. Exercise is helpful. Giving each kid 20-30 minutes per day of special Mommy time is helpful.

[catz]

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if your 6 year old is quietly pushing buttons in some way too without your knowledge.  If they're having fun, send them outside for 30 minutes to get some energy out together.  If they're not having fun, give them a job to do side by side.  Or my parents used to make my brother and I stand quietly in front of a mirror looking at each other.  I'd just be careful not picking one side over the other and just teach them know how to respect it when someone says no or stop.  

[MysteryJen]

Normal bickering is normal, but super irritating. Pranks are okay as long as everyone is having fun. Meanness gets the full treatment here. Parent talk, loss of privileges, and usually loss of something fun.

Usually spells of bickering go with not enough physical activity or stress in their daily life. Exercise and help with the stress goes a long way to settling everything down.  Swim team is great- because they can't talk when they swim and they are tired and hungry when they are done. 

And I will say, having grown up with a mean younger sister, my mom did try. One summer, the kitchen floor was scrubbed by hand, almost every day. Nothing changed but the ktichen floor. And yup, we don't talk and she is still mean. But my mom did try, at least for one summer. But growing up like that, all I wanted was to get away. This is why you have to try and get involved. 

You need to figure out normal from mean, who is the instigator and who is the one "getting caught."  My kids figured out pretty quickly that if Mom was annoyed by their behavior nothing fun EVER happened. Fun was for kids who got along and were nice to each other and to me. Otherwise, it was swim team and school and all kinds of chores all year round.

[catz]

9 minutes ago, MysteryJen said:

 

And I will say, having grown up with a mean younger sister, my mom did try. One summer, the kitchen floor was scrubbed by hand, almost every day. Nothing changed but the ktichen floor. And yup, we don't talk and she is still mean. But my mom did try, at least for one summer. But growing up like that, all I wanted was to get away. This is why you have to try and get involved. 

 

Well, to that situation I'd say your mom did the wrong thing.  I don't think kids are maliciously mean for months and years for no reason.  I would have had my kid evaluated by a psych and a neuro psych if they were that unable to control their behavior and impulse control.  There can be plenty of treatable reasons for that.  From food sensitivities to ADHD to depression (can manifest as anger in children especially), etc.  

So if you have ONE kid that seems to have an especially difficult and age inappropriate issues with impulse control and behavior, I might get that child evaluated.  

[MysteryJen]

Well, she did. But by the time that happened, I was out of the house. 

Some people have a gift for pushing buttons and saying mean things. Medication and therapy doesn't always change that.

[lavender's green]

25 minutes ago, MysteryJen said:

Normal bickering is normal, but super irritating. Pranks are okay as long as everyone is having fun. Meanness gets the full treatment here. Parent talk, loss of privileges, and usually loss of something fun.

Usually spells of bickering go with not enough physical activity or stress in their daily life. Exercise and help with the stress goes a long way to settling everything down.  Swim team is great- because they can't talk when they swim and they are tired and hungry when they are done. 

And I will say, having grown up with a mean younger sister, my mom did try. One summer, the kitchen floor was scrubbed by hand, almost every day. Nothing changed but the ktichen floor. And yup, we don't talk and she is still mean. But my mom did try, at least for one summer. But growing up like that, all I wanted was to get away. This is why you have to try and get involved. 

You need to figure out normal from mean, who is the instigator and who is the one "getting caught."  My kids figured out pretty quickly that if Mom was annoyed by their behavior nothing fun EVER happened. Fun was for kids who got along and were nice to each other and to me. Otherwise, it was swim team and school and all kinds of chores all year round.

I had a mean younger sister too, and my parents did not do enough. She and I don't speak. I'm surprised that my parents do speak to her, after the things she has done to and said about them (one thing landed her in jail, and another thing ought to have landed her in jail). But since I'm the one not talking, I'm the whole reason that we're not one big happy family. It's all my fault. Sigh.

This is why it's important to figure out if it's meanness or bickering or good-spirited fun (which may or may not drive Mom crazy, but everyone views it as fun). The way parents handle things can affect the whole family for decades.

[Home'scool]

I approached this in a two-pronged way.

First, I would ALWAYS preach to them that their family and their home is a "soft spot". That the world can be a rough place where people pick on you, or call you names or just in general can wear you down. But how lucky they are that  once they are with family there is NONE of that. "There are enough people in the world who would love to pick on you so we, as a family, have decided that this is a SAFE place for you. There is no name calling, no judging, no bullying. You can be at peace and let your guard down because you are with family and safe."

That would be repeated, over and over, until it became the family mantra. They eventually became very invested in this concept because it did save them from being teased.

Then, to enforce it, I would do this: if we were at the park and one kid spit water on the other, prompting them to dump water on the first, I would go over with mock horror and say "Oh my! I thought bringing you to the park would make you happy! I'm so sorry it is making you this unhappy that you have to pick at each other. We should leave immediately!" AND THEN YOU LEAVE THE PARK.

When my girls did this over a toy I would do the same thing; "Oh, I'm sorry. I thought that toy would make you happy but obviously it is making you unhappy so let me just get rid of it" AND THEN THROW THE TOY AWAY

You only need to do this a few times for them to get it. After that, when bickering starts, I would just yell out to them "Is something making you unhappy?" and they would stop immediately. 

I was the youngest in a family of 3 children and no parental supervision. It was horrible. The "teasing" is not fun when someone is crying. 

 

[Farrar]

This sort of thing makes me crazy too, but I totally agree with the general sentiment of the thread that for the kids, it's likely mostly fun and games that they'll look back on with fondness when they're older.

I'd try to let go of your frustrations around it for yourself. Walk away, don't take on mediating it.

Also, I'd try to outline times when it's not going on or can't go on to give yourself a break. Maybe there's a delineated family time like a "Sunday dinner" once a week when you make it clear that it's a break from that - that you're asking for this for yourself in exchange for not fussing at them about it so much. Also, on a daily basis, I'd institute a quiet time when everyone is just separated period.

[Pen]

Maybe sit down together and come up with rules that they all and you are okay with.  Answer : Who, when, where, what, how, why.  

Appropriate Time and place for water etc fights.  Where and when and what is out of bounds. And who doesn’t want to participate and needs to stay out of it.    

How would include voice volume, what’s allowed (maybe squirt guns or sponge noodle thwacking okay , maybe whole bowls of water or hoses not okay, hard items not okay)

Why would be if it is fun for all participants and not causing you or other non participating people distress. 

[Random]

20 hours ago, caedmyn said:

My older 4 kids (13, 10, 8, and 6) literally spend all day every day doing things to aggravate each other.  The 6 yo is mostly being aggravated by the others and not so much being an initiator, but the others are full-fledged "anything I can think of to do to my siblings I will" members.  DS10 spit water on DD13 at the park today, so she dumped a bowlful of water on him when they got him.  Now he's swearing vengeance on her.  This is just one example of the many, many things they've done to each other just today.  This goes on all.day.long every.single.day.  I have not found a consequence that has any effect.  Apparently the joys of causing your siblings to shriek outweighs any possible consequences mom can give.  Has anyone dealt with this?  Any suggestions on getting them to STOP (other than shipping them all off to boarding school, which often sounds like a fabulous idea if only I could get DH to agree).

 

So, I think that the majority of us with more than one kid has dealt with this.  First of all, hugs to you.  It's exhausting.  It's depressing.  It's frustrating.  It made me crazy when my kids fought and bickered all day long.  I have boys that are extremely competitive with each other.  And they seemed to somehow see themselves as superior to the other when they put the other one down or win in some sort of water-fight-type-game like you posted above.  I think I even posted similar questions ten-ish years ago. 

One of my worst parenting moments was when my two oldest sons (13 & 12 at the time) were arguing/bickering/fighting.  I had had enough.  I opened the back door and pushed them outside.  I told them to settle their fight like dogs if they were going to act like dogs.  I locked them outside (we live rurally, surrounded by national forest) and I told them they could not come back in the house until they could behave.  One went for a three hour walk and came home in a much better mood.  One sat on the back porch for a long time and came back inside in a better mood.  They way they acted towards each other broke my heart on a daily basis.

I read through the replies and there is a lot of great advice already.  It's so important to separate childish/immature behavior from meanness and malicious intent.  I think what it mostly boils down to is, kids are immature.  Some kids get along and and some don't.  My oldest two hated each other (I think) until recently.  It was awful.  I did everything I knew to do and followed all kinds of expert advice.  But they are very different and don't have much in common.  They annoyed each other, pushed each other's buttons.  These days they get along so much better.  They'll even spend a Saturday together from time to time at 17 & 16.  Now they are able to be friendly and polite and respectful and live together peaceably most of the time.  But it was a looooooonnnnnnngggggg time coming.

A few things that worked kind-of, besides time and maturity: the book,  Siblings Without Rivalry was ok.  It has some good ideas and helped me see places I was contributing to the problem.

I talked to them often about learning to get along with people we don't like, and how it's a life skill.  We talked about being men and women of integrity and learning how to see the good in others. 

Lots of space away from each other.  Different friends.  Different sports.  Different clubs, whenever possible.  This was a huge burden for me because of where we live.

I had to really lighten up and not make their squabbles as big of a deal to them as they were to me.

Copywork.  When they were just being mean, I would give them a Bible verse or quote to copy 50 or 100 or ? times that dealt with their behavior issue.  I still do this, actually.

Extra chores.

When my kids were younger, I gave each of them a certain number of Popsicle sticks (usually 5) each morning.  And whenever I had to get involved with something that shouldn't have required my attention (a "She's looking at me! Make her stop!" kid of petty squabble), I would tell the involved kids to bring me one of their sticks.  If they lost all their sticks before dinner, they went to bed straight after dinner.  This was effective because it broke me out of my rut and I stopped lecturing (they weren't actually hearing my lectures anyway).  It was also effective because my husband is definitely the fun one, and the kids really looked forward to being with him in the evenings.   When they were successful keeping their sticks for a period of time, I would tell them they had earned the privilege of starting the day with 4 sticks, then 3, etc.  Eventually I didn't need them anymore.

Best wishes to you!  I wish I could take you out for a coffee and encourage you in this.  It's so hard when your kids don't get along.

[HS Mom in NC]

If someone isn't already familiar and on board with affectionate teasing, they can easily misinterpret what's going on and create problems by reacting negatively to it. Yes, there is such a thing as mean teasing, which shouldn't be tolerated, but affectionate teasing is important for children to learn and master for the sake of their social development.  It's a life skill.

Children who don't intuitively pick up on the social cues of affectionate teasing need to be guided by an adult through it.  Address issues like:
"If you spray them with water, they'll probably spray you back because that's how this works."
"You volunteered for this when you (name action they took here)..."
"If you don't want to be sprayed with the hose, don't go near the kids spraying each other with the hose."
"Keep your actions proportionate to theirs."
"They're just joking around with you, don't take offense, get into the spirit of it and come up with a witty retort."

Here's an article about it: https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/07/magazine/07teasing-t.html

[kbutton]

I think it's okay with some kinds of kids to ban pranking if you think some of this is pranking behavior. My two kids have a whole mishmash of 2e intensity and lists of labels a yard long. Pranks are not in our vocabulary because they don't compute well around here. They see TV and movies with them, read about them in books, etc. so it's not like they aren't informed, but we don't do that.

I have extended family members that will testify that some kids don't get it, and if they are not held in line (like the time-in/tomato staking stuff) or have consequences (in our house, fines are the most effective and shortcut way to do this, so I guard it for really irritating, spiteful, or intractable behaviors), they sometimes turn into adults that keep doing the same things. I have an uncle who thinks he's very persecuted, but he's really just a jerk. Does he have some issues that might indicate he's got ADHD or some social issues? Sure, but as our family's psychologist says, being a jerk isn't in the criteria. 

There is wisdom in everything she said, but especially this:

7 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

So, I would suspect that the only place you're going wrong is that you might believe that for a consequence to be effective, it needs to completely stop the behavior.  The answer is no.  Repeatedly, and over time, as we associate negative consequences with poor choice, we choose differently.  So, a consequence here may not have stopped it happening TODAY, but it is still noble and worthwhile 😉 because it stopped it at that moment and diverted the energy to something else.  

 

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

If someone isn't already familiar and on board with affectionate teasing, they can easily misinterpret what's going on and create problems by reacting negatively to it. Yes, there is such a thing as mean teasing, which shouldn't be tolerated, but affectionate teasing is important for children to learn and master for the sake of their social development.  It's a life skill.

Children who don't intuitively pick up on the social cues of affectionate teasing need to be guided by an adult through it.  Address issues like:
"If you spray them with water, they'll probably spray you back because that's how this works."
"You volunteered for this when you (name action they took here)..."
"If you don't want to be sprayed with the hose, don't go near the kids spraying each other with the hose."
"Keep your actions proportionate to theirs."
"They're just joking around with you, don't take offense, get into the spirit of it and come up with a witty retort."

Here's an article about it: https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/07/magazine/07teasing-t.html

I agree with the bolded, but the suggestions are often woefully inadequate with some kids. 

Also, affectionate teasing requires that the type of teasing being dished out isn't overly alarming to the person being teased, and the affectionate teaser needs to pick up on this and moderate it. SO MANY TIMES, the kid who is alarmed is the ONLY ONE expected to adjust and then labelled overly sensitive or whatever.

With intense kids, the problem is usually on both the giving end and the receiving end.

[HS Mom in NC]

21 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I agree with the bolded, but the suggestions are often woefully inadequate with some kids. 

Also, affectionate teasing requires that the type of teasing being dished out isn't overly alarming to the person being teased, and the affectionate teaser needs to pick up on this and moderate it. SO MANY TIMES, the kid who is alarmed is the ONLY ONE expected to adjust and then labelled overly sensitive or whatever.

With intense kids, the problem is usually on both the giving end and the receiving end.

My comments were general, not specific to children who are not neuro-typical.  But I do think even highly sensitive children (if the label is appropriate then it's appropriate) need a lot of coaching on this.  Affectionate teasing is normal human behavior, it's going to happen because it's important to social relationship dynamics.  It's unrealistic to think everyone in school yards, at social events, and the workplace is going to halt it because of a sensitive person.  That's like saying people with food allergies shouldn't be expected to adapt, and everyone at every social event involving food should adapt to the allergic person's diet.  Restaurants, cafeterias, the neighbor kid's birthday party, church socials, the catered wedding do not bear the responsibility of making sure every potential allergen is absent from what they serve.

I have a friend who takes your position.  Her two younger children are overly sensitive and in spite of the good advice she gets from her husband that refusing to address it will cost the kids friends, she hasn't been emotionally able to deal with it.  No one would babysit more than once.  The kids have no friends, and they continuously over-react to each other to the point that most people prefer not to be around the kids. I usually meet her for coffee at a public place. She has said she is aware of affectionate teasing, but because it could turn mean,  she's going to shield her children from it by banning it entirely.  And she has.  To their extreme loss. No one wants to be friends with a 9 year old boy who bursts into tears and loud crying because he didn't get to go first down the slide this time.  That's toddler behavior. It's perfectly OK to say to that kid, "You can be disappointed about something small like that without crying." Imagine him among teenage boys-he's going to be completely unable to relate to them.
 

[kbutton]

2 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

My comments were general, not specific to children who are not neuro-typical.  But I do think even highly sensitive children (if the label is appropriate then it's appropriate) need a lot of coaching on this.  Affectionate teasing is normal human behavior, it's going to happen because it's important to social relationship dynamics.  It's unrealistic to think everyone in school yards, at social events, and the workplace is going to halt it because of a sensitive person.  That's like saying people with food allergies shouldn't be expected to adapt, and everyone at every social event involving food should adapt to the allergic person's diet.  Restaurants, cafeterias, the neighbor kid's birthday party, church socials, the catered wedding do not bear the responsibility of making sure every potential allergen is absent from what they serve.

I have a friend who takes your position.  

Well, I agree with the bolded, if you are including both the teaser and the teased.

There is a whole spectrum of "normal" responses to things. I was pointing out that the advice you highlighted is uni-directional when it comes to learning social skills while leaving room for the possibility that this advice is overly simplistic for some kids. There is plenty of room for assuming that people initiating the affectionate teasing need to learn to measure the audience, just as the person being teased has to understand what it means. I made it clear in my response that often the training needs to happen at both ends, and I used the word intense purposefully since it's inclusive of neurotypical people. You are painting my comments as extreme and adding onto them. Your statement that your friend takes my position is a gross misinterpretation given how little I said. My position is not at all like your friends'. I don't ban in my home or suggest a ban on affectionate teasing. I do ban pranking, which is not what I thought we were discussing. 

What makes teasing affectionate or aggressive differs a lot from one region of the country to another and even one family to another. The person initiating the teasing needs to know this JUST AS MUCH AS the person receiving the teasing, or else they won't have great social skills either.

--------------Separating this-----------------------------

Your bringing up food allergies with this is just inappropriate. It's not the same--one scenario is an intangible act of human behavior with cultural variations. The other is a physical reality, and it involves things you can touch, breathe, and ingest. 

Your comments about food allergies suggest that you think all people with food allergies want the world to revolve around them. Some people cannot be in the same room as their allergen. They are required to attend school and to work for a living unless they have a parent who can school them at home or unless they are independently wealthy. If a person is required to do that, in some cases, they do actually require public accommodations (albeit ones that are not necessarily universal). How much that happens is outside of the scope of my point.

------This is personal, but I hope it gives you pause...---------------

Before you continue to use allergies to make a point in other situations, please reconsider.

Do you even realize how much food-based bullying happens? Or even, for that matter, how much bullying people face from using their rightful public accommodations for disabilities that are enshrined in law? 

I wonder if we subbed your statement with the concept of public accommodations for people in wheelchairs, what that would sound like. Let's try.

Quote

That's like saying people with [mobility limitations] shouldn't be expected to adapt, and everyone at every social event involving [movement] should [ride in wheelchairs].  Restaurants, cafeterias, the neighbor kid's birthday party, church socials, the catered wedding do not bear the responsibility of making sure every potential [mobility obstacle] is absent ...

Just as people in wheelchairs want to be able to get into and out buildings and bathrooms with reasonable accommodations, people with food allergies often just accurate information about what food is available and want people to be considerate. We do have some limited laws on public accommodations for disabilities with good reason.

Considerate is not the same as having the world revolve around you, but the reactions people with food allergies get to reasonable questions/suggestions is met with such irritation, hostility, and incredulity that it's a wonder some of us appear in public at all. Stuff like asking if someone can clarify whether the lecithin in their product is made from egg or soy or whether "spices" mean the product includes peppers. How dare we do that? That's outrageous.

How dare we ask if we can fix a plate of safe food first before someone accidentally/cluelessly puts an egg-covered spoon into a dish we can safely eat? 

How dare we point out that we're being asked to travel a long way from home to be at an event, at which we will have no kitchen facilities, and we need to figure out if there will be food we can eat when we arrive at the event? We're literally just asking IF there will be food we can eat...or a fridge for our food...or a place to pick up something in town on the way that we can eat...all while bringing a dish to pass that we likely can't eat because we've been asked to bring our famous ________________ that we always made before we were allergic.

How dare we ask that people serve a dressing on the side of the salad so that we can eat it, or suggest having a salad bar set up vs. a tossed salad (oh, the terrible inconvenience of having what we planned to have without ruining it for someone else).

How dare we send a plate back to the restaurant kitchen when they put a tomato on our burger after we told them we are allergic to tomatoes.

How dare we have more than one food allergy? How dare our kids have different food allergies from us?

These are not scenarios I've made up. I or someone I know have gotten flack and been painted as difficult for exactly these kinds of things.

Heck, I'd be happy if I was reasonably sure that I could list my allergies out for a hospital stay and remain alive to go home...

Food bullying is a huge problem. HUGE. You just dismissed it by acting like it's an effective and agreed upon way to argue about something unrelated. Bullying over disabilities is also prevalent. My aunt somehow manages to work full-time while disabled. Her workplace completely remodeled a building, asked for her input on things like placing handholds in the bathroom, and then IGNORED all of it. She literally can't get out of her building in an emergency without help because they refuse to give her a workspace in their building near a handicap accessible exit (which would be easily do-able), and she works for a government entity!!! She is treated terribly every day when her mobility issues make her inefficient at certain tasks, but her employer won't take reasonable, simple steps to make it easier (silly stuff like the location of printers that she needs and that could easily be moved). Her co-workers literally want to make her quit her job; I think some have told her that outright.

[katilac]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

 I have a friend who takes your position.  

Your friend does not take kbutton's position, she takes a completely different position. 

[Storygirl]

I'm pretty sure the OPs kids have ADHD. If not all, than multiple of them. And there are six kids, five boys. So.....that's a lot. I know she didn't mention it, but knowing that might help people frame their responses to help her more specifically.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Storygirl

[katilac]

5 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

 No one wants to be friends with a 9 year old boy who bursts into tears and loud crying because he didn't get to go first down the slide this time.  

That's completely unrelated to teasing, though 🤷‍♀️

[kiwik]

6 hours ago, katilac said:

That's completely unrelated to teasing, though 🤷‍♀️

Yep.  I have one who cannot cope with being teased.  He sees it as saying mean things and he doesn't say mean things to people.  I am much the same - I just don't see that something is less unkind when said in a teasing manner and suspect that many people are just being unkind and saying "just teasing" if anyone calls them on it.  If you tease and someone asks you to to stop then you should stop not blame them. I don't see that it is that hard to not tease someone who doesn't like it.  We expect people to keep their hands to themselves so why not their words.  None of this means being unable to let someone go first or  win a game etc.

[Pen]

If it’s all in fun, then some rules like use of water gun which tends to level field as between 13yo and 6yo can make sense

if it isn’t , and there’s an escalation problem then trying something like ending events at first sign of a problem may help

is the 10yo who initiated the spitting a particular problem or just random choice of example ?

is there a sole and oldest girl problem?

have you tried a private discussion with each child separately to try to understand what’s going on?

 

 

[caedmyn]

It is generally not friendly teasing--they're doing it to annoy each other, and succeeding.  I've told DH a few times that I wouldn't care if they gouged each others' eyes out as long as they didn't come crying to me about it (not really, but the general idea).  But they spend all day tattle-taling on each other and expecting me to do something.  I've tried telling them they need to handle it themselves, but they're pretty physical with each other so I decided letting them work things out themselves isn't a great idea.  I'll try giving them chores when they bicker. 

[caedmyn]

On 7/2/2019 at 8:30 AM, Home'scool said:

Then, to enforce it, I would do this: if we were at the park and one kid spit water on the other, prompting them to dump water on the first, I would go over with mock horror and say "Oh my! I thought bringing you to the park would make you happy! I'm so sorry it is making you this unhappy that you have to pick at each other. We should leave immediately!" AND THEN YOU LEAVE THE PARK.

When my girls did this over a toy I would do the same thing; "Oh, I'm sorry. I thought that toy would make you happy but obviously it is making you unhappy so let me just get rid of it" AND THEN THROW THE TOY AWAY

You only need to do this a few times for them to get it. After that, when bickering starts, I would just yell out to them "Is something making you unhappy?" and they would stop immediately. 

I was the youngest in a family of 3 children and no parental supervision. It was horrible. The "teasing" is not fun when someone is crying. 

 

This might help.  I'll have to try it.

[caedmyn]

On 7/1/2019 at 4:16 PM, PeterPan said:

So the interesting question is how this ds10 is thinking through the cause/effect here. On the one hand, it sounds like there's some normal payback kind of stuff that is how kids (siblings or no) would push back on each other and help the other person learn what isn't acceptable. But if say one of the parties DOESN'T HAVE GOOD SOCIAL THINKING, then maybe the kid doesn't GET that sequence of cause/effect. Maybe he only remembers the last thing (that he got water dumped on him) and doesn't figure out the sequence that got him there.

 

He understands the cause and effect very well.  The problem is that he LIKES the effect of getting a reaction from somebody else (he's said this in one form or another several times recently).  He doesn't always enjoy it when they do something back to him, but in his mind, if they retaliate that's just another reason to do something else to him.

[SanDiegoMom]

My husband and I were both youngest children.  We don't allow teasing. AT ALL.  We still have scars from it. My husband barely talks to his oldest brother because of the "pranks" he used to pull.  There's gentle teasing and then there's cruel, manipulative teasing, and when there is an age difference it is NEVER equal. 

My eldest daughter has ADHD.  She had a lot of trouble controlling her temper with her younger siblings, even though she loved them to death.  We talked endlessly about being role models, us all being on the same team, what certain words can do to a kid's self esteem, setting a good example since they looked up to her.... etc. etc.  I think (hope) my kids will be great friends as adults.  

[prairiewindmomma]

I'm going to toss this out there....does this fit?

https://www.additudemag.com/too-much-drama-relationships/ (picking on others to get a rise out of them to stimulate the adhd brain)

https://adhdrollercoaster.org/adhd-and-relationships/arguments-conflict-as-self-medication/ 

This is a real thing. I picked a couple of easy google hits on the topic, but there are a lot of good resources out there. 

[katilac]

17 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I'm going to toss this out there....does this fit?

https://www.additudemag.com/too-much-drama-relationships/ (picking on others to get a rise out of them to stimulate the adhd brain)

https://adhdrollercoaster.org/adhd-and-relationships/arguments-conflict-as-self-medication/ 

This is a real thing. I picked a couple of easy google hits on the topic, but there are a lot of good resources out there. 

Very interesting! I've definitely known people where this seems to fit. 

[Storygirl]

Yes, my child with ADHD provokes others on purpose in order to ramp himself up. It's challenging.

[Pen]

On 7/3/2019 at 3:40 PM, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

My husband and I were both youngest children.  We don't allow teasing. AT ALL.  We still have scars from it. My husband barely talks to his oldest brother because of the "pranks" he used to pull.  There's gentle teasing and then there's cruel, manipulative teasing, and when there is an age difference it is NEVER equal. 

My eldest daughter has ADHD.  She had a lot of trouble controlling her temper with her younger siblings, even though she loved them to death.  We talked endlessly about being role models, us all being on the same team, what certain words can do to a kid's self esteem, setting a good example since they looked up to her.... etc. etc.  I think (hope) my kids will be great friends as adults.  

 

I think problem is How exactly do you get it to stop.  I think talking isn’t working for @caedmyn hence this thread

[Pen]

On 7/3/2019 at 3:32 PM, caedmyn said:

He understands the cause and effect very well.  The problem is that he LIKES the effect of getting a reaction from somebody else (he's said this in one form or another several times recently).  He doesn't always enjoy it when they do something back to him, but in his mind, if they retaliate that's just another reason to do something else to him.

 

Beyond Time-Out: From Chaos to Calm https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0751JDSP7/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_w9HjDbNCPAGXE

read description and customer comments to see if you think it might help

if he has adhd someone who specializes in that might help 

do you also have the escape artist child?

if so it sounds like you may have adhd in your household