How to help a major perfectionist

[lovinmyboys]

My ds (just turned 9) doesn’t like to do hard things. Lots of things come easily for him. I would say he learns things quicker than average. But when he can’t do something he gives up. And not just gives up, he has a meltdown about it. In every other way, he is a pretty “normal” kid. 

Bedtime has become the worst. He cries about all the things he can’t do or isn’t very good at. Lately it has been every night. 

I have tried different things, but nothing seems to help. As an example, he says “I’m terrible at x,” and I say “with practice you will get better,” he says “you don’t understand how terrible I am!! Practice can’t help me!” Or he says “I can never learn to do that.” I say, “let’s set a timer and work on it for 10 minutes every day,” He says “there aren’t enough hours in the day for me to learn it.” And sometimes I just let him vent and I just listen. None of it works. Suggestions?

[Carrie12345]

It’s hard!!!

I don’t have any magic answers. I do lean heavily on talking about previous hard things that my two perfectionists have overcome. (Video games tend to be good for that here. “Remember when you swore you’d never beat blah blah blah? But you kept trying and then beat the whole game!)

One of mine has big handwriting issues. Any practice is like pulling teeth, but we make it into a “show me your worst and your best” game, and then make silly jokes about the worst together. Together being the key - it’s not me making fun of him.  Laughing about MY mistakes is good, too. I’m not above making them on purpose! 

I’m also big on taking breaks from the biggest problems to focus on the things that come easier and celebrate those successes.

[Katy]

I would probably say it's fine to cry but it's not okay to avoid hard things because he's afraid to fail.  Failure is part of life.  He's been very blessed at being naturally good at many things.  Most people are only naturally good at 1-2 things and have to work very hard at the rest.  That serves them well when they grow up because they know how to work hard.  He can be a hard worker. He WILL be a hard worker even when things don't come easy to him.  Then I'd repeat it at least twice a day for the next year and a half because he's 9 and this is probably partially hormonal.

DH always repeats this saying to the kids, "Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard."

Honestly if it started really bothering me I'd treat this like a character issue, but how you frame it would greatly depend on the individual child.

[KungFuPanda]

I'd try to find out of it was an anxiety issue or a work ethic issue and go about tackling it from that angle.  Over the years, there are so many posts similar to this one (but not this one) where it's very obvious that the mother is somewhat proud that the kid is a perfectionist but wants to fix the parts of that the bother her.  It becomes a humble brag post (Again, not THIS thread.) Even without the meltdowns, a kid like this needs coping skills and often needs to be taught about time limits and doing the best you can within those parameters.  Sometimes homeschoolers give their kids unlimited time to do things and stuff like this can escalate before we realize it's a problem.

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

Bedtime has become the worst.

If this behavior is coming out mostly at bedtime, then I would work on getting him wound down before he's tired. Brush teeth and pjs earlier, into bed earlier, and read him down to sleep or something and skip that stage entirely. 

Anyone's mind can run away with them when they're tired and it sounds like he's not self-aware yet to realize it's happening. You might even say how tired are you, well we don't talk about emotional things or solve problems when we're tired, we can talk about that tomorrow morning, and then go back to working the plan for what you do when you're tired. So keeping him from getting overtired, using hot tea, hot water bottles, hot baths, etc. to transition him through that uggy stage, etc.

My ds RUNS when he's over-tired. Like laps and laps and laps, 30-45 minutes. So yours is running with his mouth, but it seems like the same thing, this kind of energy coming out. So I have to head it off and work the plan so he's not tired and left loose like that.

Btw, my other strategy is to pull out school work. Pile of worksheets, math, history narration, anything. Sorry, you're not ready to sleep, let's do school work till you are because your brain clearly has more energy. Sometimes that takes 45 minutes too, but at least it's something familiar with a routine where he knows what to do. 

But no, don't engage or go cognitive. We don't solve problems when we're tired, I love you, don't come out, and shut the door. Or, I'm happy to do read alouds or school work or card games with you but beyond that it's over, and shut the door.

Edited March 15, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

As an example, he says “I’m terrible at x,” and I say “with practice you will get better,” he says “you don’t understand how terrible I am!! Practice can’t help me!” Or he says “I can never learn to do that.” I say, “let’s set a timer and work on it for 10 minutes every day,” He says “there aren’t enough hours in the day for me to learn it.”

Ok, just for clarity, can I ask, does he do this during the DAY or only at night? Is he spending school time in this way? I guess I don't understand why it matters if he can't do something. You could answer:

-That's fine. It's ok not to be able to do something.

-What do you want to do about it?

But I'm so black and white that I'm not seeing the so what. Big shock, a mortal can't do something someone else can do. So? I'd be like that's nice and walk off. 

What is he GETTING by engaging in this? Could you meet that need another way? Like if he just needs a conversation because he has siblings and wants attention, could you pre-plan meetings for that time and head it off with a better topic? I swear my dd and I used to fight as a way to connect. Ds was sucking the time, the air, the life out of everything. Sometimes you have to stop and be really intentional about giving POSITIVE attention and heading things off. 

I'm not saying that's it, but you could definitely look for what function it serves. Like at night is it a way to help him get out his tension and wind down for bed? In the day, is he wanting attention or wanting to escape tasks? That's what I would be looking at. The complaint itself, well I didn't have that. I'm an extreme, over the top kind of perfectionist, so I spent all my kids years saying things like "that's good enough" and "doesn't have to be perfect." Like literally, I totally swung the other way, because i'm SO naturally intense. You could google for what strategies are. My kids are way more chilled about that than I am, but my dad was very perfectionist too and drilled it into me. It gave him success in his work, so he thought it was a virtue. It made me kinda non-functional. ;)

[lovinmyboys]

He is definitely anxious. I have never been a perfectionist, so this is something I have trouble understanding. He has a much stronger personality than I do :). 

The problem during the day is that he either will refuse to do something, or he won’t give a reasonable effort, or he just continues to re do things that were already good enough for me. Like he does beast academy online. It specifically says if the student gets one star to move on. He won’t move on until he gets three stars. I haven’t let him do the online version for awhile because it is too emotionally draining for me. It took until this year for him to have decent handwriting because every time we did handwriting he either would scratch everything out or he would write sloppy on purpose. Something clicked with him this year and now I would say he writes on grade level and he did it all on his own with no drama.

He played basketball for the first time this year and was on a really good team, so he was the worst player (but still better than average for the league). He could have been much better-he is very athletic-but he just didn’t try. He wouldn’t shoot. He would just let the other players get the ball. He was so afraid he would make a mistake. I didn’t go to the first several games and I thought maybe the coach was putting too much pressure on him, but his coach was really encouraging. 

I’m sure there is an anxiety component. He plays on a travel baseball team, but the coach is amazing and always positive. At their team meeting he told them he wanted them to learn signs this year. I think ds already knows the signs, but he is obsessed with studying them. That was what set him off at bedtime last night. I think he is worried that he will mess it up during the game-but so what! I also reminded him that if he doesn’t know a sign, he can get time out to talk to the coach (if he is a batter or runner).  

I totally agree that we should not be rehashing all the things he is terrible at during bedtime. I tell him that but then he just lays in his bed and cries. He honestly acts completely normally like 95% of the day, but the 5% that he doesn’t is really, really over the top. And it almost always has to do with him feeling like he is not good enough at something. 

 

[City Mouse]

At bedtime, I would just not engage. Maybe say something g sympathetic like "I am sorry you feel that way" and then move on. I agree with the thought that he is probably over tired. Would it help if he went to bed earlier?

During the day when he is not upset, the I would bring it up and find out if he wants you to help solve the problem or if he just wants to vent. No one is good at everything.

with my own DS, I spent a lot of time pointing out how different people are god at different things.

Edited March 15, 2019 by City Mouse

[lovinmyboys]

I feel like my last reply was really rambling. The main thing is he either gets crazy obsessed with doing something well/perfectly (like beast academy online) or he just won’t try or has to be cajoled to do things because he doesn’t do them well. Or he begs me to let him quit activities that he likes, but thinks he isn’t good at. 

 

[Farrar]

Here's my tips as the parent of a perfectionist...

When he does it at bedtime, do not engage. I know it seems cruel, but you may need to walk away at some point if he keeps in on it. 

In general, don't argue the point with him. When you do that, it allows him to argue that he IS bad at the thing, just further entrenching his thinking. He's not hearing your supportive words and he's vocalizing and solidifying his thinking that he's terrible.

Make a particular time to talk about these feelings. Keep it contained, short, and at a time when he's more at his best.

Create mantras and phrases for him to repeat. Make him do it. Positive thinking stuff. Help him write over the negative thinking.

[Katy]

This reminds me of this thread on Reddit about the best advice you've ever been given.  A girl was trying to teach her sister to dive but she kept saying she was too afraid.  Finally an older woman who'd been watching from a distance swam over and said, "Well then be afraid, but do it anyway."

I wonder if variations on that theme might help - "Well then be terrible, but do it anyway until you're good," etc...  

[PeterPan]

51 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

He is definitely anxious.

Are you already hooked up with resources? The Social Thinking site will have a whole list of books for you. There are your cognitive strategies, your self-awareness strategies, and medications. You could also run genetics and look for anything treatable like a TPH2 defect. I give my ds 5HTP for his and it makes a big difference. On the self-awareness and self-monitoring, that's your Interoception materials from Kelly Mahler. He's not self-monitoring, realizing his triggers, and making choices, and you could make all that cognitive.

54 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

I tell him that but then he just lays in his bed and cries.

So he's not self-aware enough to make a better choice. He has not made the connection between what his body is doing (I'm anxious, I'm tired on top of that, now I'm crying inconsolably) to make better choices. You can do the Interoception materials yourself or get an OT or psych. There are lots of ways to skin a cat, but the basic idea is he has to pick up the clue phone and realize his triggers and his patterns and make better choices. How old is he? I would care about a crying 3 yo, but a 9 yo ought to be able to realize what's happening and make better choices and use strategies. Since he's not, you intervene when he's calm.

There's a TON of data right now on doing body scans to improve awareness and decrease anxiety. Here are some links

http://www.theanxietycoachespodcast.com/free-body-scan

A Meditation on Working with Anxiety - Mindfulhttps://www.mindful.org/meditation-working-anxiety/

Here are the interoception assessment forms. https://www.aapcpublishing.net/interoception-assessment-forms.html  They aren't too expensive and they will allow you to quantify how far his self-awareness deficits are going. Might just be for a few things, or might be for more. Not expensive and they're very interesting. They'll help you pinpoint where the GLITCH is in the process too, like whether it's realizing what his body is doing or his triggers or what choices he could make to help himself. That way you can start in at the right point.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, lovinmyboys said:

Like he does beast academy online. It specifically says if the student gets one star to move on. He won’t move on until he gets three stars.

Ok, here's the thing. He's actually RIGHT that moving on with mastery isn't always good! I like to know something completely, so I really get it and sympathize with that. That to me is not so much clinical as maybe sensible. But then we can temper that cognitively. If we go for 3 stars, will it make a difference in your proficiency or is it being OCD about the number of stars?  He's smart enough to understand that and have that discussion and make a choice.

1 hour ago, lovinmyboys said:

He has a much stronger personality than I do :)

He sounds adorable. What I was told, when my ds was getting diagnosed, was that I was reaching but that I needed a chair so I could step up and reach higher. To me that's a good metaphor. You've reached as a mom, now reach higher. There are some strategies and methods you can learn, things that are considered best practices for anxiety, so step up to the next step and embrace them. 

And is his anxiety diagnosed? You've had evals? These are things a psych should be telling you too. You know, I'm pretty frank with my ds, increasingly no tolerance. Like here's the standard, here's where we're going, and you're gonna get there with cognitive strategies or you're gonna get there with supplements (like the 5HTP for the TPH2 defect) or we're gonna get there with medication. Bringing in professionals was really eye-opening for me, because THEY had higher expectations and THEY had ways to talk with him to say hey we're gonna step up what we're expecting. They weren't saying squash what you're feeling or pretend or go hide it but more like let's be cognitive, let's live intentionally, let's make choices and take responsibility. It's HIS issue if he's acting that way and it's HIS responsibility to start to monitor it and make better choices. It's YOUR job to give him the tools to do that.

The trick is to get him into the counseling and bring in those strategies and interventions before he's big enough to buck you. Once that kid is a teen, it gets a lot harder. So the issues are small, but that's why you intervene now.

Edited March 15, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, lovinmyboys said:

I think he is worried that he will mess it up during the game-but so what! I also reminded him that if he doesn’t know a sign, he can get time out to talk to the coach (if he is a batter or runner).  

Have you thought about connecting him with a counselor with experience with anxiety? Here you're offering him a solution, which really doesn't push it back to cognitive and making choices. The question is what HE wants to do about it and what options HE sees. I would ask him what his options are if that happens and what he's planning to do? 

With my ds, we work through scenarios and we have 3-4 options for things. We problem solve ahead of time to reduce anxiety. I don't expect him to problem solve well on the spot. The counselor he has used does the same thing, thinking through scenarios that will cause anxiety and helping him learn how to problem solve ahead. It's a strategy.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, lovinmyboys said:

He played basketball for the first time this year and was on a really good team, so he was the worst player (but still better than average for the league). He could have been much better-he is very athletic-but he just didn’t try. He wouldn’t shoot. He would just let the other players get the ball. He was so afraid he would make a mistake.

Why is he playing basketball? Sometimes kids CAN do things but really aren't that into it. Or they're sorta into it but don't like all the ramifications once they get there. That's a lot of stress if every week something else about it is worrying him. Maybe it's not worth it. You could ask him if it's worth it or give him the out. You could say hey would you like some strategies to lower your stress here and what would it take to get your stress low enough to be comfortable playing with this? 

I personally would give him the out and only support staying if he chooses to use strategies that will lower his stress and make it go better. Staying in isn't teaching him skills, so he should either use skills or move on to a situation with lower demands where he can learn those coping skills. I would give him an out, again, because HE NEEDS TO CHOOSE.

See, what I would be hoping then, just me, is that he would say he wants to (even if it's kind half-hearted) and then I would have my list of 7 suggested strategies and see what he wants to try. Again, if he doesn't want to work ANYTHING from the list, I'd dump the sport. But if he wants to be there, I would want to see things like:

-going to a counselor to work on strategies to manage anxiety and learning problem solving

-doing the interoception awareness assessment to see if there's anything you could improve there

-doing mindfulness 3-4 times a day as check-ins (every day) and always before games and at half-time to improve how he's self-monitoring

-talking with his coach about strategies and options for things he's worried about and making plans to implement those strategies

 

[gardenmom5]

have you talked to the ped about possible anxiety?

[Condessa]

I have two kids like this.  My strategy has been to require a subject that cannot be learned without some struggle and practice.  This results in lots and lots of meltdowns—but it also results in consistent ongoing practice at having to try to do something they don’t already know how to do well.  For my oldest, this used to be piano.  She loved to play and would practice under her own motivation, unless it was time to start a new song.  Starting something she didn’t know how to play would lead to 45 minute screaming meltdowns before I could actually get her to place her hands on the keys, because she was so averse to the possibility that she might do something badly.  I would take little videos and periodically I would go back and show her videos of herself from a few months before and say “remember how hard that seemed at the time?  And it’s so easy now!  Look how much you have learned and how far your practice has taken you!  You can even play _______ now!”  (insert her most recent song she mastered after freaking out about).

She is ten now, and it’s been almost five years since we started this.  She has made a ton of progress in her ability to confront challenge, though even now we still work on attitude issues when she gets frustrated or feels overwhelmed.  As she has advanced in piano to where it is not so consistently challenging to her, she now gets her regular doses of challenge from math.  My second perfectionist is six, and I’m struggling to find an area for him to practice consistently confronting challenge in.  He just learns everything so easily.  He gets some practice from his music and from math and spelling, but I would like to find a medium to work on it more consistently.

 

ETA: Not videos of the meltdowns, videos of her playing—usually on the second day of a new song when she was starting to sound pretty good but not perfect yet.  I reread what I wrote and thought it sounded like I was showing her videos of her meltdowns.

Edited March 15, 2019 by Michelle Conde

[Farrar]

You don't want a kid constantly in meltdown, but I would say also that letting him avoid moments when this anxiety comes out doesn't do him any favors. It's okay if he does freak out about something to require it anyway if you think it's important. It'll only get worse if you don't make him face doing the things he's scared about.

[chocolate-chip chooky]

I can relate. 

In those moments, it's hard not to engage. I would acknowledge their feelings, but respectfully disagree with that they are saying. Not a conversation about it. Just a calm, respectful, loving disagreement.

So, in that meltdown moment of 'I'm hopeless at X. I'll never be any good at Y. Practise won't help.' etc etc, I would say:

"I can see you're feeling strongly about this, but I disagree."

If they continue: A smile and a hug and a gentle "I disagree".

Good luck.

[Tanaqui]

Is it possible that it is time to speak to a professional about this?

[lovinmyboys]

Maybe I should talk to a professional. I have been treating it as just normal anxiety. It is hard to know what needs professional help, and what is just part of growing up. 

I did tell him we aren’t talking about any of this stuff before bed tonight. Bedtime is when I feel like it is most out of control. 

 

[PeterPan]

Well as far as significance, it's considered significant when it's affecting life functions. So it's affecting his ability to go to sleep or participate comfortably in activities and it's significant. 

I will say it's harder the first time, the first kid, to make that call. Now I'm like oh another eval, sure, sounds great. What would be holding you back? The cost? How it makes you feel? He already feels bad about his situation, so you're only looking up when you reach out for help. 

My personal two cents is that if it's significant to post about it on a public form where thousands (millions?) of people, total strangers read, you already know it's discrepant enough to need help. Your mother gut is already telling you that. The only question is what kind of help and where to start to get that. Usually the place you start is with your ped. Unless he's a donkey and blows you off or something. But assuming your ped is a thinking, helpful person, that's where you start. I would also run genetics. But as far as getting referrals, that's where you usually start, with the ped, because you need the referrals for insurance coverage.

[EMS83]

 

13 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

Maybe I should talk to a professional. I have been treating it as just normal anxiety. It is hard to know what needs professional help, and what is just part of growing up. 

I did tell him we aren’t talking about any of this stuff before bed tonight. Bedtime is when I feel like it is most out of control. 

 

Please don't do that.  Bedtime is where he's safest and least distracted, so of course it all comes out then.  He may not feel able to express those feelings at other times, for whatever reason.  Let him cry.  Hug him.  A caveat is if he is keeping you up all night, then find a solution where you both comfort him and help him respect your need for separation and sleep.

Yes, find a counselor; vet them, but find one.  I'm actually going to counter the logical people on the thread; having experienced that state of mind, logic won't make it stop because it's missing the point.  It's hard to say much beyond that, as the reasons for feeling that way can vary wildly, but please don't shut him down.  It is both a part of growing up and in need of professional help/guidance; like wellchecks, exercise, and good diets.  Some people need more help/guidance than others, but I think we all need at least some, really.

[KungFuPanda]

On 3/16/2019 at 10:41 AM, CES2005 said:

 

Please don't do that.  Bedtime is where he's safest and least distracted, so of course it all comes out then.  He may not feel able to express those feelings at other times, for whatever reason.  Let him cry.  Hug him.  A caveat is if he is keeping you up all night, then find a solution where you both comfort him and help him respect your need for separation and sleep.

Yes, find a counselor; vet them, but find one.  I'm actually going to counter the logical people on the thread; having experienced that state of mind, logic won't make it stop because it's missing the point.  It's hard to say much beyond that, as the reasons for feeling that way can vary wildly, but please don't shut him down.  It is both a part of growing up and in need of professional help/guidance; like wellchecks, exercise, and good diets.  Some people need more help/guidance than others, but I think we all need at least some, really.

I'd give the mom the benefit of the doubt for knowing her kid.  Not every kid handles sleepiness very well.  For some, they need the rest before they can have a meaninful and productive conversation.  Some are just plain contrary when they're tired.  We've all known babies who fight sleep even though it's the thing they need most.  Some young children get like this too.  Allowing them to spin out when they are over tired isn't the best idea and making it a nightly habit can make things worse in some cases.

[lovinmyboys]

2 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I'd give the mom the benefit of the doubt for knowing her kid.  Not every kid handles sleepiness very well.  For some, they need the rest before they can have a meaninful and productive conversation.  Some are just plain contrary when they're tired.  We've all known babies who fight sleep even though it's the thing they need most.  Some young children get like this too.  Allowing them to spin out when they are over tired isn't the best idea and making it a nightly habit can make things worse in some cases.

It has only been a few nights, but so far not talking about it at bedtime has been going well. I feel guilty telling my child that-it isn’t how I typically parent, but I think it is what he needs. He starts talking and then gets spun up and then it is after midnight and he feels worse and is no closer to getting to sleep than when he first went to bed. It is usually just me here at bedtime and I have 4 kids, so it is difficult for me to stay up with him for hours night after night. 

[lovinmyboys]

I am going to do some more reading about how to help him. We have been reading some picture book biographies and I think he was a little surprised at how many times people fail before they get something right.  So we have been talking about that. 

One thing I need to figure out is when to require him to give a best effort. His typical pattern is to try something and do well at it, but when the expectations are raised, he just gives up. For instance, he did a learn to play hockey class and was one of the best in the class. He loved it and wanted to do house hockey. So I signed him up for that, he was no longer the best, so he wanted to quit. Then because he wants to quit, he doesn’t give full effort at practice. It isn’t terrible-he does what the coach says and isn’t a distraction, but I know and he knows he isn’t trying his hardest. And he cries on the way there. I don’t care whether he plays hockey or not, but I want him to give his best effort while he is there and I don’t want him to quit just because it is a harder class. It is like that with everything-I don’t want to push him too hard, but I don’t want him to just half effort everything. I want him to use his frustration to try harder not to quit.

Parenting is hard. I have four boys, but they are all so different. What I learn from one doesn’t seem to transfer to the others. It seems like there are lots of resources for getting babies to sleep, toddlers to toilet train, and preschoolers to behave. Not so many about how to handle a typical elementary schooler who breaks pencils when he misses a math problem or who quits when things get hard.

[Pen]

My son has had anxiety issues, which may be related to perfectionism, to where he gets shaky, and at one point even fell down before a skating competition from anxiety (not fell like while moving, but just while standing still ).    

Foodetc can help because blood sugar seems closely related. Plenty of sleep.

An idea that helped and might help your son iscthat every activity has to have a best at it, a worst, and in the middles if there are multiple people involved.  Being the worst at something can be a great kindness for someone else who perhaps is often worst at many things and gets to go up to middle as a gift of another person being worst.   To be worst and yet a good sport and having fun can be an act of kindness. 

 

My ds found some meditation and use of ASMR to be helpful.  

[Ravin]

The thing that's helped my son the most with this was the unit they did in PACE (what they call the gifted program at his school) on growth mindset. The idea is that the focus for accomplishment should be on effort, not on assumptions of inborn talent. This helps with the quitting tendency in perfectionism. DS will get very frustrated, cry, but still persist and keep trying because he has really taken this mindset to heart. I've seen it in the way he approaches things he finds difficult.

[EMS83]

10 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I'd give the mom the benefit of the doubt for knowing her kid.  Not every kid handles sleepiness very well.  For some, they need the rest before they can have a meaninful and productive conversation.  Some are just plain contrary when they're tired.  We've all known babies who fight sleep even though it's the thing they need most.  Some young children get like this too.  Allowing them to spin out when they are over tired isn't the best idea and making it a nightly habit can make things worse in some cases.

Of course.  That's true, too.  🙂  

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

It has only been a few nights, but so far not talking about it at bedtime has been going well. I feel guilty telling my child that-it isn’t how I typically parent, but I think it is what he needs. He starts talking and then gets spun up and then it is after midnight and he feels worse and is no closer to getting to sleep than when he first went to bed.

I'm glad it's working!!! And remember, it's NOT about telling him he can't talk. He can talk any time of day. The issue is one, whether it's the time to talk (whether it's helping, whether he's rational, whether it's going somewhere or spinning in the mud), and two whether he has enough self-awareness and interoception to be making choices that help himself. HE clearly has not caught on that he feels dysregulated at night and has this negative spiral. Because HE hasn't caught on, then you are stepping in. But reality is that means it's time to look at some interventions like the interoception curriculum https://www.kelly-mahler.com/what-is-interoception/  to help him on a deeper level. The mindfulness that you do as part of interoception work is FABULOUS before bed. It will calm him down, is an evidence-based practice for anxiety, and will help him realize what he's feeling and make better choices. What you want is for him to realize what he's feeling, what his triggers are, and to be able to make better choices. He's not doing any of that right now but is just spiraling. 

As long as he's going to bed calm and feeling loved, you're cool. You don't have to leave him alone. You're just refusing to engage in something that makes him spiral and doesn't help him problem solve. You're happy to pray with him, do a body scan with him, sing to him, give him a back rub. You're just not going to engage in spiraling, unproductive behaviors at midnight. 

When you have a teen and they NEED to talk at midnight, the difference will be very obvious. 

Edited March 19, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

We have been reading some picture book biographies and I think he was a little surprised at how many times people fail before they get something right.  So we have been talking about that. 

This is wonderful! Mr. Rogers has a lot of lines about this too, about how many times they must have practiced something to be able to do it so well. It's the kind of gentle thoughts that you don't maybe notice as a kid, but as an adult watching they just out at you. 

9 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

Not so many about how to handle a typical elementary schooler who breaks pencils when he misses a math problem or who quits when things get hard.

Did you go to the Social Thinking site? https://www.socialthinking.com  They're going to have SO much for you. You can search their product listings by age, and they have SO many articles. If you just read, read, read on their site it's like going to their $$$ (excellent btw) workshops. 

Anyways, right off the bat I'm thinking you would find the 5 point scale useful. https://www.socialthinking.com/Search Results#q=5 point scale  The idea is you adapt it to fit ANYTHING. So one system, one concept, and you bring it out for every situation. So he's RIGHT that we put different amounts of effort in for different situations!! How do you decide that? Right now he's so b&w, he's like well I'm either working at a 5, all the way, or I'm a 0. Well what would a 1 of work effort look like or a 2 or 3 or 4? You can quantify that and make charts and TALK about it!!

It's so healthy to have tools like this, because it's stuff we use life-long. Do we play games equally intensely? No. We look at the audience, the purpose, and we say ok this is the amount of effort to put in. Do we sing equally loudly in all situations? No. Pain, effort, frustration, joy, all kinds of things he's dealing with can be discussed using the 5 point scale. You can apply it to literature and read-alouds and movies throughout your day. You can probably get the book or related materials through your library even. 

Keeping asking questions. The materials you're needing ARE out there. There's tons on anxiety and perfectionism. If he does some work with interoception, so he becomes more mindfully aware of how he's feeling, and you pair that with some solid cognitive strategies (5 point scale, etc.), you're going to get there.

It's GOOD that you're seeing these behaviors. You WANT to see them, because you want to deal with them now, while he's at home, not when he's an adult. So it's not a problem but how growth happens. You've got this. 

Edited March 19, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

Not so many about how to handle a typical elementary schooler who breaks pencils when he misses a math problem or who quits when things get hard.

Have you heard the story about Gene Kelly breaking his foot because he was so angry after a volleyball game?   Apparently he was as perfectionist in his recreational life as he was in his dancing. He didn't know how to turn it off or modulate or say this is the amount of effort and intensity appropriate to this situation. He needed a 5 point scale, lol.

Also while you're at it look up the concept of Social Behavior Mapping. Again, we're just trying to make explicit things he's missing, helping him connect the dots. https://www.socialthinking.com/Search Results#q=social behavior mapping  I would *start* with self-awareness (interoception) so doesn't feel guilty or hopeless with no physical ability to make a change. But eventually, yeah, this is what you want him to see and where it's going and why it's important. It's a stage 2 sort thing, marked 8+. I do it *some* with my ds but very carefully.

Edited March 19, 2019 by PeterPan

[Kanin]

Something to keep in mind is that if he's not used to persevering, he doesn't have much experience with that great feeling of accomplishing something after a lot of hard work. He may really not know that he CAN struggle, fail, struggle, and ultimately overcome.

At my school, they teach the kindergarten and first graders the word "persevere," and the teachers use it in conversation ALL the time. We have a school motto that includes the word perseverance - the motto is called "habits of success" or something like that All the K-8 students refer to perseverance all the time. Being able to put a name to an emotion/action seems to really help the kids here. And, once they succeed after persevering, they realize that they can apply that perseverance in other contexts.

Maybe you could pick something you know he'll struggle with a little bit, and then help him to him finish it. Then, you can increase the difficulty gradually, all the while praising his perseverance rather than his innate skills. Those picture books you got sound wonderful, too 🙂 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Mainer said:

Something to keep in mind is that if he's not used to persevering, he doesn't have much experience with that great feeling of accomplishing something after a lot of hard work.

This is just a total aside, but I've been watching my ds play Zelda and realized he was asking for help constantly because he DIDN'T WANT TO STICK with something and deal with failure. It's SO easy to get answers now, to google, to have a way out, that it undermines that process of failure and trying again. And because they get the end point anyway, they THINK they had success and don't realize what it SHOULD have felt like! So I've been cracking down on that.

And then for the op, I was thinking about you today while I read chapter 5 of this book.                                             The Motivation Breakthrough: 6 Secrets to Turning On the Tuned-Out Child                                        It has a bunch of stories on arguing and power dynamic and talks about when to engage, when not to, HOW not to, etc. Mirrored some of the advice you got here, so you might find it interesting to delve into further. I have a feeling if you looked into it ALL the people in our house are motivated by power, lol. I mean seriously, it's crazy. I don't even know if that's statistically probable, lol.

[kbutton]

17 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

I am going to do some more reading about how to help him. We have been reading some picture book biographies and I think he was a little surprised at how many times people fail before they get something right.  So we have been talking about that. 

One thing I need to figure out is when to require him to give a best effort. His typical pattern is to try something and do well at it, but when the expectations are raised, he just gives up. For instance, he did a learn to play hockey class and was one of the best in the class. He loved it and wanted to do house hockey. So I signed him up for that, he was no longer the best, so he wanted to quit. Then because he wants to quit, he doesn’t give full effort at practice. It isn’t terrible-he does what the coach says and isn’t a distraction, but I know and he knows he isn’t trying his hardest. And he cries on the way there. I don’t care whether he plays hockey or not, but I want him to give his best effort while he is there and I don’t want him to quit just because it is a harder class. It is like that with everything-I don’t want to push him too hard, but I don’t want him to just half effort everything. I want him to use his frustration to try harder not to quit.

I love the biography idea.

Regarding the bolded, perhaps not just when but for what categories...maybe you can even come up with a rubric for "what activities make us leave it all on the floor" vs. "when we do it well enough." That is very real world--you sometimes have to prioritize things in terms of what you can do with what's going on now, not do everything as if the conditions for success are always perfect. We also decide based on what is important to us. I have plenty of things I want to do perfectly, but there are plenty of things where doing it perfectly would literally be pointless (for instance, something will immediately be un-done). I am also thinking in sports, you might leave it all on the floor when you are playing one of those teams where you are neck and neck the whole game, but you might not play so intensely when you are playing a team you know you are going to trounce by a huge margin. 

Regarding the underlined, maybe some people harness frustration for trying harder, but I don't. I am guessing you do, and that's fine--I don't want my next statement to sound personal because I am guessing this is an individual difference, but that sounds demoralizing and like some kind of torture, lol! Lest you think I'm a total quitter due to my take on that, I do actually work a lot with my kids on frustration tolerance. Their causes seem radically different from your kids' though, so that's why I'm staying kind of broad in my suggestions.

He might need some activities where he's clearly the best balanced with some new challenges. Or maybe he needs to see that he's the best __________ on the team even if overall he's not the best player (if applicable). Many (not all) people would find it difficult to go from being the best to the bottom of the pile or maybe even the middle of it. 

He could also just have a really hard time knowing how to evaluate success or failure or growth--as in, he might not understand that process at all or understand where he is in the process, so any suggestion that he's not the best leaves him wondering exactly how good he is at something. Or maybe he realizes that it was easy to be good at x level, but at the new level, it's not what he thought it would be, and he just truly doesn't care about being good at that level because it's no longer fun. It's okay to decide you'd rather be the best mediocre __________ (fill in the blank with the activity or position) and enjoy yourself.

I will readily admit that as soon as serious competition became a thing when I was a kid, I didn't enjoy stuff. That's not to say I'm never competitive, but it's not something I enjoy in very many areas of life, and I tend to be good at oddball things that aren't particularly flashy, lol! 

[kbutton]

P.S. Some people are generalists also. Jack of all trades; master of none. For some reason, that tends to drive parents/teachers/coaches bonkers. All the wasted potential!!! I am not a super competitive person, but I feel this pressure too. I want my kids to realize their potential to excel, but maybe they will excel at choosing their battles or creating a very fulfilling life in some way that I haven't seen yet. 

Can you tell I got a lot of lectures from authority figures about living up to my potential? Lol! 

[Katy]

Our rule about when to let someone quit is that they have to finish the season/academic year once they start, and if they are so injured they need to quit they will play an additional season when they are allowed to. That's not because any of them have injured themselves on purpose, it's because someone I went to school with was constantly getting hurt on the field in order to quit solely because their parents forced them to play a sport each season when they would rather have been reading or playing video games.

Anyway, the exception is music and swimming here.  Swimming for safety, music for discipline.

[PeterPan]

On March 14, 2019 at 11:46 PM, lovinmyboys said:

I have tried different things

Hey, this popped up in my feed and I thought it might interest you. It's a lot of great ideas and strategies in one place from a really on the ball intervention specialist. https://www.autismclassroomresources.com/behavioral-tools-mistakes/?utm_campaign=coschedule&utm_source=facebook_page&utm_medium=Autism Classroom Resources&utm_content=Behavioral Tools for Perfectionists' Meltdowns&fbclid=IwAR3I3VGmorLCidMquToTd19hVEYxk5IjqkStrbMmDKnnyM_ll_w2HfYzUFE

[lovinmyboys]

18 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Hey, this popped up in my feed and I thought it might interest you. It's a lot of great ideas and strategies in one place from a really on the ball intervention specialist. https://www.autismclassroomresources.com/behavioral-tools-mistakes/?utm_campaign=coschedule&utm_source=facebook_page&utm_medium=Autism Classroom Resources&utm_content=Behavioral Tools for Perfectionists' Meltdowns&fbclid=IwAR3I3VGmorLCidMquToTd19hVEYxk5IjqkStrbMmDKnnyM_ll_w2HfYzUFE

Thanks so much for this! I like how she does the big or little problem and reaction. He definitely does several of the behaviors she described. 

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

Thanks so much for this! I like how she does the big or little problem and reaction. He definitely does several of the behaviors she described. 

Yup, Christine Reeve is the bees' knees. I found her through someone else on the boards, and any time I have ANY questions about a topic or problem, I go to her site first. Seriously. Like there's no where else I haunt or follow. She has some books on classroom organization, tons of stuff on TPT. I used her picture schedules when ds was little. Just the mindset of be organized, be intentional, gather data, be calm, so helpful. And any fringe thing usually she has info on. Like one time I was like wow, there should be modified mindfulness/body scans for people with aggression, and sure enough she had the info on it. (meditation on the soles of the feet) So yeah, if there's a single place worth reading, that's it. Don't be picky about the labels. Just take the parts that work and see the vision behind them. Like she has stuff in her TPT store for math that you might be like oh he doesn't need that, but then when you dig in you might realize it would actually be good to do those skills a bit! 

[lovinmyboys]

On 3/19/2019 at 5:46 PM, kbutton said:

P.S. Some people are generalists also. Jack of all trades; master of none. For some reason, that tends to drive parents/teachers/coaches bonkers. All the wasted potential!!! I am not a super competitive person, but I feel this pressure too. I want my kids to realize their potential to excel, but maybe they will excel at choosing their battles or creating a very fulfilling life in some way that I haven't seen yet. 

Can you tell I got a lot of lectures from authority figures about living up to my potential? Lol! 

I think this is part of my dilemma. I don’t actually care if my kids are good at any particular thing, but with him, it does seem like wasted potential. He could be so good at several things if he would just try. But really, I want to push him to give a decent effort, not to fulfill his potential, but I think the two can get mixed up.

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, lovinmyboys said:

I think this is part of my dilemma. I don’t actually care if my kids are good at any particular thing, but with him, it does seem like wasted potential. He could be so good at several things if he would just try. But really, I want to push him to give a decent effort, not to fulfill his potential, but I think the two can get mixed up.

If it makes you feel better, neither my brother or I defined decent effort/improvement quite like adults did. I could find a way to improve all kinds of things, but sometimes doing so made me realize the improvement was essentially pointless; I felt like effort should be expended on things that meant a lot to me, and sometimes a need for additional effort showed me that I no longer cared. We did struggle to rise to meet a challenge because things usually came easy, and both of us have done super well at various things in spite of that (get us passionate about something, and we'll make your head spin). But both of us are still generalists, lol! 

You are wanting great skills for him. I think you'll figure it out. 

[ktgrok]

On 3/15/2019 at 9:28 PM, lovinmyboys said:

Maybe I should talk to a professional. I have been treating it as just normal anxiety. It is hard to know what needs professional help, and what is just part of growing up. 

I did tell him we aren’t talking about any of this stuff before bed tonight. Bedtime is when I feel like it is most out of control. 

 

Get the evaluation. He's crying that often, there is something going on. Either anxiety or OCD. 

[fairfarmhand]

Remember that he’s a kid and it’s really ok for kids to “not live up to their potential.” How many stay at home moms are told this when they’ve trained for another career? I have 3 kids who do music lessons. They could be really really good. They could perform and record and.... and yet, they do music because they like the way of makes them feel. Because they enjoy it. And that’s enough for me.

[Chris in VA]

I LOVE Peter Pan's posts--wow, so much wisdom there. 

As one who has been anxious and perfectionist myself, one little thing can I offer you--

I (finally--sheesh) have examined my childhood enough to understand something--I didn't know the difference between perfection and excellence. An academic example--I was brought up with the idea that getting 100% ("all of them right") was the goal on every test or graded assignment. Anything less was good, but not--perfect. And perfection was the goal, always. Al.ways. 

So A, B, C grades were much less scary than percents on my report card. If you get an A, that's the best you can do. But if you get a 95% (which is an A....) and your parent sees that 95%, then you have missed 5 percent. It's good, but not perfect. So I was never satisfied and never felt the satisfaction of my parents when my grade on a test was not 100. 

It was so prevalent in my mind, that it actually became a core belief--a belief so strong that it is extremely difficult to "rewire," and affects one's outlook on life. I could, intellectually, agree that effort mattered, that not reaching 100% was "good enough," but inside it did not feel right. That's when I knew it was a core belief. Perfectionism had wormed its way into my life. 

Not til recently did I figure out that there is a difference between perfection and excellence. After a lot of work figuring out things, I realized excellence is really a much healthier standard. AND, one cannot be excellent all the time (and it is NOT "less than" perfect, it is a different SCALE). 

Anyway, I'm not sure I'm explaining this well, but for me, it was life changing. I realized, for example, that I had passed on the idea of 100%=the only good. I was feeling inside that dd should have really good grades, 100% being the goal. I gave lip service to "oh, try your best!" or "Oh, 85 wow what a great grade!" But I didn't really feel that way. And dd picked up on it. She is better now that she is in college. Now my core belief is changing, which I am so proud of and thankful for--because it is TRUTH, and that is my highest value in my core. 

So, I guess I'm taking forever to say, look at the difference and maybe there's something there you can use with your ds. 

 

[lovinmyboys]

I don’t think he needs to “live up to his potential,” but that phrase struck me because other people will say “he has so much potential.” I just want him to give some effort and not quit something he likes just because it gets a little harder.

In the hockey example, he loved the learn to play class and really wanted to do house hockey. His house hockey league is one hour a week. He said he wanted to do it and I think it is reasonable to give a good effort for one hour a week. But it was “too hard,” so he didn’t. And if he decides he doesn’t want to do hockey, I won’t sign him up again. I just want him to give a fair effort and not give up because he can’t do something the very first time he tries. And, objectively, house hockey seems more fun than the learn to play class. I really don’t care about hockey, I just don’t want him giving up on something he claims to like because it is slightly hard.

[lovinmyboys]

As far as the perfectionist meltdowns, it seems like he has a pattern. He does ok for awhile and I think everything is fine. Then he starts having small ones that he and I can manage. Then he starts doing the fairly significant meltdown at bedtime and I ask for suggestions on how to help him. Then he has a major meltdown during the day (usually during school). During that meltdown I think he probably needs some extra support from a professional. Then, he goes back to being “normal” for awhile and I think he is learning and growing out of it. Then the cycle repeats. It’s like he can only handle his life for so long, then he explodes from all the little frustrations he has been handling. Then, after that meltdown, he is able to start handling frustration again.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

I ask for suggestions on how to help him.

You mean you post here asking for help or you ask him what would help?

2 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

During that meltdown I think he probably needs some extra support from a professional.

You mean it's so bad you feel overwhelmed and like you need outside help to deal with that moment?

3 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

Then, he goes back to being “normal” for awhile and I think he is learning and growing out of it.

This is where your real problem is. You're not getting professional help to do the intervention that would PREVENT the cycle from occurring in the first place. You don't call in professionals at the END. 

Almost all interventions are about PREVENTION. 80% of your effort should be in prevention and only a small amount then goes to dealing with incidents that happen anyway.

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

It’s like he can only handle his life for so long, then he explodes from all the little frustrations he has been handling. Then, after that meltdown, he is able to start handling frustration again.

You might try something basic like a frustration box and having him write what bugs him on a slip to submit. Then read them together once a week and problem solve. Also it sounds like he needs some stress relief strategies (physical outlets like wrestling or boxing) and some self-monitoring strategies like Zones of Regulation or Interoception.

I talked to someone who said his mother put a speed bag (for boxing) in his room and told him to go use it every day, lol.

Edited March 22, 2019 by PeterPan

[kbutton]

https://www.amazon.com/Anxiety-Free-Kids-Interactive-Parents-Children-ebook/dp/B01MEDCFES/ref=sr_1_67?keywords=anxiety+child&qid=1553269171&s=gateway&sr=8-67

This book has simple workpages in the back to do with kids.