Perspective needed please re. older siblings sharing bed

[Frances]

2 hours ago, bodiesmom said:

Really???? I'm not being snarky-I'm just surprised. 

These are 2 twin mattresses next to each other in a trundle bed. Would CPS honestly take issue with that? Genuine question.

I guess I’m not understanding the difference between 2 twin mattresses next to each other on a trundle bed and sleeping in the same bed. When we travelled in Europe, many of our hotel beds had two mattresses side by side in one big bed. But I still considered my husband and I to be sleeping together in the same bed. Could you at least start the separation by putting one of the mattresses on the floor or separating the mattresses in some other way?

[Pen]

6 minutes ago, Frances said:

I guess I’m not understanding the difference between 2 twin mattresses next to each other on a trundle bed and sleeping in the same bed. When we travelled in Europe, many of our hotel beds had two mattresses side by side in one big bed. But I still considered my husband and I to be sleeping together in the same bed. Could you at least start the separation by putting one of the mattresses on the floor or separating the mattresses in some other way?

 

Are the sheets and blankets divided separately between the beds or is there king size bedding  combining the sleep space? 

[Frances]

6 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Are the sheets and blankets divided separately between the beds or is there king size bedding  combining the sleep space? 

Separate sheets and comforters for our hotel rooms. It still didn’t really seem much, if any, different than sleeping in our king size bed at home.

[Catwoman]

40 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

In countries where everyone is in the same room, there is still same sex sibling/parents sharing a bed instead of opposite sex siblings.  And there is often a curtain hung up to divide the room for some privacy.  Also- having more people in the room is actually a deterrent for inappropriate sexual situations.  Though even in those countries there is abuse and incest.

As a pastor's wife who has dealt with more than one troubled family, I have never met a parent who knew that abuse was happening before it was way too late and even then they were terribly shocked that something happened.

A lot of unhealthy situations develop where unmedicated anxiety or other mental health issues were untreated or treated inadequately.  The anxious person can inappropriately attach to someone as a way of coping and that is not healthy.

I apologize for being a bit blunt here.  I am not saying that anything is happening in the OP's situation.  What I am saying is that it allows for unhealthy dynamics to be present which could result in unhealthy and in some cases inappropriate relationships. 

 

I’m glad you were blunt, Jean, so I could just like your post and not have to try to figure out how to say the exact same thing. 🙂

Honestly, it surprises me that people think it is normal and acceptable for male and female teenage siblings to share the same bed. If someone I knew told me that was happening in their family, I would think it was extremely weird.  I don’t think it is healthy at all, and I would share the OP’s husband’s concerns (as well as the other concerns you mentioned in your post.) 

[Katy]

Foster children have different safety standards than biological or adopted children.

I don't think CPS would find biological siblings sharing a trundle to be automatically abuse, but they would likely investigate it and if there is anything else that is questionable going on it would be founded.  That includes things OP might not be aware of, things that would be otherwise categorized as normal puberty if the kids were in separate rooms.

Frankly I'd err on the side of safety and let Dad separate them, even if I softened whatever his approach was going to be so the approach wasn't too harsh.  Kids have anxiety about all kinds of things, and the way they overcome it is doing the thing they are afraid of again and again until it no longer feels so scary.

[DawnM]

3 hours ago, bodiesmom said:

Really???? I'm not being snarky-I'm just surprised. 

These are 2 twin mattresses next to each other in a trundle bed. Would CPS honestly take issue with that? Genuine question.

 

Yes, and I am going to be honest, I would be asked to call CPS if a teen in my school told me this was happening, with no adults in the room, and adequate space for separate rooms, and no other siblings in there.

Edited December 21, 2018 by DawnM

[RootAnn]

I've read a lot of Heinlein books, so I know where people's heads would go when they read the OP. I think it would be a good time to separate the beds, encourage them to start the night in their own rooms and allow them to sleep in the separated beds as necessary (knowing they'll likely end up there) until both can deal with sleeping alone.

It will be dicey when / if one can do it but the other isn't ready yet. Counseling should also be used to get through the transition, IMO.

[bodiesmom]

Sorry for the delay-I had an appointment....

-Just wanted to thank everyone for their bluntness-it is always appreciated on my end. Never apologize for speaking bluntly. We all filter information through our own personal experiences so it's always helpful, in my opinion, to hear everyone's take. And let's be honest, if I can't handle the Hive's heat, I have no business posting in the Hive Kitchen. 

I do understand where each poster is coming from, I honestly do. I think some of the comments are veering into alarmist territory, but again, each person's experience makes their opinion valid, and I take each of them seriously and to heart. 

All that said- there are several misconceptions that a closer reading of my posts and subsequent clarifying posts would clear up. 

I am going to separate them, not because I think there is anything nefarious going on, rather because I truly believe this is a case of what was once two kiddos getting better sleep when not sleeping in a room alone has now become, as a previous poster put, a "bad habit". 

🙂 

[bodiesmom]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

Are the sheets and blankets divided separately between the beds or is there king size bedding  combining the sleep space? 

I didn't want to leave you hanging, Pen... 🙂

Two separate mattresses (I do get that this is the same as sharing a bed in some people's minds, which makes sense), two separate sheets, completely separate bedding, and a mountain of pillows between them to boot. 

 

[Ausmumof3]

Do you guys have pets at all?  Having the cat sleep in her room helped my dd transition to sleeping in her own room without the anxiety levels being too crazy.  

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, EmseB said:

I get that there are all sorts of reasons that people had/have to share beds, but honestly, I would think it really strange if I had a 15 year old son who wanted to sleep in the same bed with his preteen sister. There's just so much development happening during those ages that I think privacy in sleeping and changing and everything else is important. I don't care if I've been conditioned that way societally or culturally or whatever, I don't think I'd allow those ages to sleep together in the same bed if I could at all help it. Personally I'd prefer them to have separate rooms, but at the least I would say separate beds. The fact that the 15yo doesn't want privacy from the preteen would be concerning to me.

Yes...this is an age where a boy is going to be having nocturnal emissions,  erections, etc. How awkward to have that with your sister in your bed! And potentially unhealthy.

2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

In countries where everyone is in the same room, there is still same sex sibling/parents sharing a bed instead of opposite sex siblings.  And there is often a curtain hung up to divide the room for some privacy.  Also- having more people in the room is actually a deterrent for inappropriate sexual situations.  Though even in those countries there is abuse and incest.

As a pastor's wife who has dealt with more than one troubled family, I have never met a parent who knew that abuse was happening before it was way too late and even then they were terribly shocked that something happened.

A lot of unhealthy situations develop where unmedicated anxiety or other mental health issues were untreated or treated inadequately.  The anxious person can inappropriately attach to someone as a way of coping and that is not healthy.

I apologize for being a bit blunt here.  I am not saying that anything is happening in the OP's situation.  What I am saying is that it allows for unhealthy dynamics to be present which could result in unhealthy and in some cases inappropriate relationships. 

I'd be inclined to have a kid and parent combo rather than different genders together. Especially ones with anxiety....it just sets a stage where bad things can happen even if they don't plan it. 

Separate beds at least, working towards separate rooms, maybe with a sleeping bag or those foam fold out things in each for a sibling to crash on. 

[Bluegoat]

My understanding is the girl is the 15 year old?  I'd feel differently if it were the other way round, TBH.  A boy at that age can still be very much in kid territory, whicle a girl generally won't be.  I think that changes the sense of it a lot, including likely for the kids. But a boy that age will also be about to really spring into puberty in short order, and then it may seem obviously awkward, even to them.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Bluegoat

[Annie G]

1 hour ago, bodiesmom said:

 

Two separate mattresses (I do get that this is the same as sharing a bed in some people's minds, which makes sense), two separate sheets, completely separate bedding, and a mountain of pillows between them to boot. 

 

This sounds very different than how you initially described the setup. In the title you characterized it as sharing a bed, so of course we saw it that way, too.  The mountain of pillows between them seems weird to me- since they do have the option to sleep apart, what is the purpose of the mountain of pillows AND having the mattresses pushed together? Why not just put a mattress on opposite walls so they aren’t sharing a bed?  

[bodiesmom]

18 minutes ago, Annie G said:

This sounds very different than how you initially described the setup. In the title you characterized it as sharing a bed, so of course we saw it that way, too.  The mountain of pillows between them seems weird to me- since they do have the option to sleep apart, what is the purpose of the mountain of pillows AND having the mattresses pushed together? Why not just put a mattress on opposite walls so they aren’t sharing a bed?  

good question-really it was just a matter of space and how it all worked out. They don't have a NEED to be next to each other, but they do have a "need" to have someone else in that dark scary room. 🙂 

Dh and I talked some more and we are on the same page. We both think it is time (well, past time) to get their bodies used to sleeping in their own rooms...alone. We have a game plan in place which includes utilizing the two dogs as pseudo-companions during the transition phase. 

And yes, I do acknowledge that I wasn't clear in my title nor original post. I did clarify further down though. Either way it's all good. 🙂

The mountain of pillows-totally normal in this family at times. When I was prego with all three of my kids I had a pillow on every single side of my body. I eventually weaned myself down to two pillows-ha. My dh, who recently had total knee replacement surgery, is now the one with a gazillion pillows all up and down his body for support. The kids...meh-just a transition from fort building to having a stash of pillows to snuggle with during the night if need be. 

[bodiesmom]

32 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

My understanding is the girl is the 15 year old?  I'd feel differently if it were the other way round, TBH.  A boy at that age can still be very much in kid territory, whicle a girl generally won't be.  I think that changes the sense of it a lot, including likely for the kids. But a boy that age will also be about to really spring into puberty in short order, and then it may seem obviously awkward, even to them.

Yes, the girl is the 15 year old and the boy is the 12 year old.

[Pen]

4 hours ago, hippiemamato3 said:

Sharing a bedroom is not the issue - teenagers of the opposite sex sharing a BED is. 

 

Perhaps a first step would be to express the situation as “two single beds”. rather than “one trundle bed”.

[GoodGrief]

Sometimes when my kids were/are anxious, they liked to sleep in the living room. Perhaps once they move to separate rooms, going to a sofa in shared family space might be the first step if one got nervous alone in the room in the middle of the night, rather than going to the sibling's room.

[katilac]

9 hours ago, bodiesmom said:

 I guess it is bothering me because he "seems" more concerned over what other people think about this arrangement more than how it is benefiting them both. He typically doesn't share his opinion so forcefully so that is another reason why I'm wondering if I'm being blind to something....

 

I do think you're being a bit blind to the fact that your husband has a valid concern. This is not a kid bucking the trends to dress in their own style, or choosing to follow interests that other consider nerdy. A rumor about this type of thing is more vicious and harmful than being laughed at for wearing a fedora or playing Dungeons and Dragons.  It's the kind of thing that will haunt them throughout high school. Seriously, accidentally saying at lunch that you share a bed with your brother is like throwing chum into the water with sharks circling. Sometimes you do have to be concerned over what other people think. The rumor-mongers will not be persuaded by nuances like separate bedding and a pile of pillows. It's the nature of the beast. 

I know you guys have made a decision based on other reasons, but I still felt like your dh could use a little defending 🙂

[Katy]

I'm wondering what's different about this house. Does it just feel creepier to them?  What about some sort of ceremony to clear out bad vibes? For Pentecostals this would be annointing oil crosses with prayers over the doorways and dancing and clapping to praise and worship music. For Catholics it might be holy water. For nonspecific spiritual people it might mean burning sage incense.  For the nonreligious family any of the above might work, or even a made up candle ceremony.

The placebo effect is real, especially if you don't know about it.

[Halftime Hope]

You also mentioned "a dark, scary room."   It seems like that could be mitigated with a soothing voice or music (books on tape, etc.) playing as a sleep aid, a programmable nightlight, and even mattress-warmers to take the chill off the sheets.  

Were I in the same spot as you've describer:  I'd separate the beds, and if needed to keep them quite close, I'd put them first at 90 degrees to each other, so that their feet were in the corner, and their heads were further apart.  

In my family, I'd also have a gentle conversation about them both growing up and having different physical and emotional needs as their bodies mature.  They will have differing sleep and schedule needs, differing physical needs as their bodies mature and start doing grown-up things, and perhaps even different needs for personal space. To keep those changes from being wrenching, you and  their dad have decided to start them on a path of differentiating from each other, because you love them and don't want either of them to be hurt when one changes but the other doesn't at the same time or in the same way. 

Best wishes OP.

[bodiesmom]

20 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

I do think you're being a bit blind to the fact that your husband has a valid concern. This is not a kid bucking the trends to dress in their own style, or choosing to follow interests that other consider nerdy. A rumor about this type of thing is more vicious and harmful than being laughed at for wearing a fedora or playing Dungeons and Dragons.  It's the kind of thing that will haunt them throughout high school. Seriously, accidentally saying at lunch that you share a bed with your brother is like throwing chum into the water with sharks circling. Sometimes you do have to be concerned over what other people think. The rumor-mongers will not be persuaded by nuances like separate bedding and a pile of pillows. It's the nature of the beast. 

I know you guys have made a decision based on other reasons, but I still felt like your dh could use a little defending 🙂

I appreciate you defending him...heck the poor guy needed it today! 🙂 

As with most domestic issues, there were a LOT of layers to my misplaced frustration with him. LOTS of backstory with this one. Fleshing it out with the Hive helped me see that more clearly and address the issue at hand. 

He had a very valid concern, but the way he approached it triggered some bad reactions. I totally own that. 

Thank you for your honesty, Katilac! 

[bodiesmom]

1 minute ago, Halftime Hope said:

You also mentioned "a dark, scary room."   It seems like that could be mitigated with a soothing voice or music (books on tape, etc.) playing as a sleep aid, a programmable nightlight, and even mattress-warmers to take the chill off the sheets.  

Were I in the same spot as you've describer:  I'd separate the beds, and if needed to keep them quite close, I'd put them first at 90 degrees to each other, so that their feet were in the corner, and their heads were further apart.  

In my family, I'd also have a gentle conversation about them both growing up and having different physical and emotional needs as their bodies mature.  They will have differing sleep and schedule needs, differing physical needs as their bodies mature and start doing grown-up things, and perhaps even different needs for personal space. To keep those changes from being wrenching, you and  their dad have decided to start them on a path of differentiating from each other, because you love them and don't want either of them to be hurt when one changes but the other doesn't at the same time or in the same way. 

Best wishes OP.

I had to quote because liking wasn't enough. 

Thank you, Halftime. 🙂 

So far the kids are on board. They've agreed to give it a shot with the help of the dogs, sound machines, and a string of Christmas lights. How much they truly "ARE" on board at midnight tonight will be a completely different story...lol. Dh and I have the game plan though. 

 

[bodiesmom]

23 minutes ago, Katy said:

I'm wondering what's different about this house. Does it just feel creepier to them?  What about some sort of ceremony to clear out bad vibes? For Pentecostals this would be annointing oil crosses with prayers over the doorways and dancing and clapping to praise and worship music. For Catholics it might be holy water. For nonspecific spiritual people it might mean burning sage incense.  For the nonreligious family any of the above might work, or even a made up candle ceremony.

The placebo effect is real, especially if you don't know about it.

Thank you for this suggestion, Katy. I'm not sure what is different about this house. They love it here, but still miss home. We moved away from some dear friends of theirs. They still see them regularly but still...it's just not the same as living down the street from them. 😞 FTR we never had any kind of issue like this at our previous home. Everyone slept in their own rooms and beds without any issue whatsoever. 

[Halftime Hope]

Bodiesmom, you might also brainstorm some strategies:  I've awakened in the middle of the night, and I'm not next to sibling.  What do I do now?  I can pick one of these three choices (choose several options with them), and I'll be OK even though I'm not in the same plane as, nor adjacent to, my sibling.  

And because I'm a bit mercenary, I'd also make some chewable melatonin handy (in a 1 or 2 mg low-dose chewable).  It makes me really sleepy, and it might get them over a hump.  Heh, heh!

Edited December 22, 2018 by Halftime Hope

[mom2scouts]

9 hours ago, bodiesmom said:

Really???? I'm not being snarky-I'm just surprised. 

These are 2 twin mattresses next to each other in a trundle bed. Would CPS honestly take issue with that? Genuine question.

I was thinking this too. Our church donates to buy beds for kids leaving foster care because CPS will not return any child until they have their own bed. Teen siblings of the opposite sex sharing a bed would definitely have their attention.

[kiwik]

Would simply announcing that at 13 your son needed to sleep in his own bed in his own room and working together to come up with a transition plan help?  The first step could be putting a bolster down the middle of the bed.

[Starfish]

3 hours ago, bodiesmom said:

Thank you for this suggestion, Katy. I'm not sure what is different about this house. They love it here, but still miss home. We moved away from some dear friends of theirs. They still see them regularly but still...it's just not the same as living down the street from them. 😞 FTR we never had any kind of issue like this at our previous home. Everyone slept in their own rooms and beds without any issue whatsoever. 

 

This post struck a note with me.  It may be just a comfort thing.   When we moved into our current home years ago, our three boys ( who had shared a room previously ) wanted their  own space while our dd wanted to sleep with her brothers because the "rooms were bigger".  We ended up with the two middle ds sharing a room and oldest ds with dd ( the youngest ) sharing a room.  It was definitely a different arrangement!   It lasted for a couple of years until oldest ds wanted his own space. Then we moved dd into the playroom.  With that said, I'd encourage you to support their want to share a room but separate the beds.  As a mom who doesn't  go for squabbling, I'd also go a step further and require all dressing to be in the bathroom.  Kudos to you for working with your dh to solve this family dilemma. 

[Starfish]

21 hours ago, bodiesmom said:

Really???? I'm not being snarky-I'm just surprised. 

These are 2 twin mattresses next to each other in a trundle bed. Would CPS honestly take issue with that? Genuine question.

Not certain about CPS but offering another perspective:  Our guest room has a daybed with a trundle on a frame that rises to bed height.   it's great  for the grandchildren and  the college students we host because it's two separate beds.  The one married ds we have pushes the beds together for him and his wife.  That's the visual I get when I read your post -- two beds made into one with sheets and pillows separating the occupants.  When dd and I went to Iceland we had separate beds with separate sheets which we moved apart.  Would your family be comfortable with moving the beds apart? 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Starfish

[gardenmom5]

11 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I

I apologize for being a bit blunt here.  I am not saying that anything is happening in the OP's situation.  What I am saying is that it allows for unhealthy dynamics to be present which could result in unhealthy and in some cases inappropriate relationships. 

and even if it doesn't happen with the sibling - inappropriate will be more likely to happen with an outsider because they don't learn what is appropriate.  (and I'm not explaining it well.)

[gardenmom5]

10 hours ago, Frances said:

Separate sheets and comforters for our hotel rooms. It still didn’t really seem much, if any, different than sleeping in our king size bed at home.

we were in austria last summer - each air b&b had two twin comforters on one big bed (ranged from queen sleeper sofa to two twin beds with king size bedding.)

7 hours ago, bodiesmom said:

good question-really it was just a matter of space and how it all worked out. They don't have a NEED to be next to each other, but they do have a "need" to have someone else in that dark scary room. 🙂 

Dh and I talked some more and we are on the same page. We both think it is time (well, past time) to get their bodies used to sleeping in their own rooms...alone. We have a game plan in place which includes utilizing the two dogs as pseudo-companions during the transition phase. 

And yes, I do acknowledge that I wasn't clear in my title nor original post. I did clarify further down though. Either way it's all good. 🙂

The mountain of pillows-totally normal in this family at times. When I was prego with all three of my kids I had a pillow on every single side of my body. I eventually weaned myself down to two pillows-ha. My dh, who recently had total knee replacement surgery, is now the one with a gazillion pillows all up and down his body for support. The kids...meh-just a transition from fort building to having a stash of pillows to snuggle with during the night if need be. 

string lights are a good choice.  my dd does that.  not sure when it was started as she hardly lived at home after she started grad school.  some fun ones,, doesn't have to be the "plain" ones.  1ds swears the mechanical white noise machines are better than any of the electronic ones.  he said it's available on youtube - as he didn't have it with him at 2dd's house and he needed it to sleep.

if you have "dogs" - multiple - can each kid take a dog to sleep with them in their room?  

I have one who slept with a special stuffed animal for a long time.

[RootAnn]

OP-I hope last night was a good start & everyone got some sleep.

[MaBelle]

There is a problem here.  You need to figure it out and fix it.  

[bodiesmom]

3 hours ago, RootAnn said:

OP-I hope last night was a good start & everyone got some sleep.

RootAnn-thank you. 

Last night went well. Both kids slept in their own rooms. I think the dogs in their rooms was key. We did have to walk older dd back to her room around 1 (she came into our room sometime after we went to bed ) but that was the only incident. 

And now we buckle down for tonight...lol!

Thank you, Hive. Your words of wisdom, concern, and questions that helped me flesh this out were all so helpful. Dh thanks you too! 🙂 

[bodiesmom]

13 hours ago, Halftime Hope said:

Bodiesmom, you might also brainstorm some strategies:  I've awakened in the middle of the night, and I'm not next to sibling.  What do I do now?  I can pick one of these three choices (choose several options with them), and I'll be OK even though I'm not in the same plane as, nor adjacent to, my sibling.  

And because I'm a bit mercenary, I'd also make some chewable melatonin handy (in a 1 or 2 mg low-dose chewable).  It makes me really sleepy, and it might get them over a hump.  Heh, heh!

This was great! Thank you Halftime! I haven't tried the melatonin yet-my luck it would increase dd's anxiety. It might be worth a shot if we can't get her to reprogram her brain to sleep alone though.

[Pen]

@bodiesmom

One more perspective before you separate them to their own rooms:

I think the possibility that the two siblings (or one of them) who gravitate to each other’s room out of some anxiety about being alone could have some real threat in their lives needs to be considered. 

For example, could there be an older sibling (or other family member, or even outsider) bullying, scaring, or even molesting, one of the frightened children ?  

 Perhaps with threats not to speak of it, or in a way that creates fear, but perhaps without awareness of why, such as making scary sounds in one or both of the frightened children’s rooms.  

This could also cause something like melatonin to be not a benefit of a little sedation in a completely safe environment, but a way to deprive someone of the ability to react and keep their wits about them in an  unsafe environment.

 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Pen

[bodiesmom]

22 minutes ago, Pen said:

@bodiesmom

One more perspective before you separate them to their own rooms:

I think the possibility that the two siblings (or one of them) who gravitate to each other’s room out of some anxiety about being alone could have some real threat in their lives needs to be considered. 

For example, could there be an older sibling (or other family member, or even outsider) bullying, scaring, or even molesting, one of the frightened children ?  

 Perhaps with threats not to speak of it, or in a way that creates fear, but perhaps without awareness of why, such as making scary sounds in one or both of the frightened children’s rooms.  

This could also cause something like melatonin to be not a benefit of a little sedation in a completely safe environment, but a way to deprive someone of the ability to react and keep their wits about them in an  unsafe environment.

 

Pen-

Thank you for this-you've helped put some ideas on my radar.

[vonfirmath]

On 12/21/2018 at 5:30 PM, GoodGrief1 said:

Sometimes when my kids were/are anxious, they liked to sleep in the living room. Perhaps once they move to separate rooms, going to a sofa in shared family space might be the first step if one got nervous alone in the room in the middle of the night, rather than going to the sibling's room.

 

This.

Both of my kids know, if they have nightmares and can't get back to sleep in their own room, they can go out to the living room and sleep on one of the sofas.