Does this seem off to you - hs FB group

[Bluegoat]

So, this lady on the homeschool org FB group made a post last night, and it really rubs me the wrong way, even though I also would not have been crazy about the comment that prompted it.  People here at WTM have a variety of views but are pretty rational (maybe unlike FB!), I am curious if this is a widespread difference of opinion thing or what.  I'll maybe lay out what happened before saying what in particular rubbed me the wrong way.  (Though I already said in the discussion, which I may regret...)

So, apparently this happened at some sort of homeschooling event.  HS events here are quite mixed generally, you have eclectic people, evangelicals, lots of secular types, lots of unschoolers.  So a wide variety of views on various topics.  People seem to make this work for many activities.

Apparently some kid, elementary school aged, said some sort of comment in passing to her kid about gays being bad.  It seems to be unclear what this kid really meant by that, though my guess is it's some version or interpretation of something heard at home - who knows how accurately understood.  The implication from the woman was that this was an evangelical kid though I am not sure if that is known fact or a guess.  

So, she laid out that this had happened, and wrote a bit about how they teach their kids to be allies and her kids were shocked but are ok, and that she doesn't want anyone to be made by a comment like this to be made to feel excluded or uncomfortable.  She then said something like "fair warning, everyone, if I hear any comments like this in the future I will be gently address it with the kid, we won't stand up for hate."

Subsequently all but one response post was completely right-on agreement, at least 20.  So that seems pretty complete agreement, except that I know there are likely a lot of people that didn't say anything, and I am am not sure the mom knows that.  It also became quite clear that she considers hate in a fairly broad way - she'd not differentiate, for example, a simple evangelical view from a Catholic view - I don't think she knows there is a difference.  (Obviously, this kids comment wasn't really at that level either way, and who knows what the parent's view is.)

 

Thoughts?

[regentrude]

I don't see what the problem is. She let it go this time and will address it next time. If somebody said "being (fat, black, a girl, a foreigner... insert your choice or "othering") is bad" , I hope parents who overhear this would step in to correct the child (who, likely, is regurgitating what he heard at home). I fail to see how differentiating between evangelical and Catholic view would matter here. In our homeschool group, a comment like this would elicit an immediate response by any adult who happens to overhear it.

 

Edited November 10, 2018 by regentrude

[PrincessMommy]

calling it hate speech seems to be taking it to a whole new level altogether.  Especially, since this was a kid.   Making it public also seems off.  Why not talk with the parents first?   Kids say stuff and misinterpret stuff all.the.time.  Like you said, who knows what the parents believe.  

I would be bothered by it.

Edited November 10, 2018 by PrincessMommy

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, texasmom33 said:

I feel like she's virtue signaling. That is enough to annoy me regardless of what the child in question did or didn't do. Her crowing about it on FB seems a little self-congratulatory, and "look at how virtuous I am as are my children." 

I mean if something happens, like if it's "gays are bad" or to regentrude's point blacks, or fat people or fill in the blanks- I mean are we seriously at a point where people are publicly shaming kids on FB in order to stroke their moral ego? I mean talk to your kids and move on. If it happens again, talk to kid in questions parents if you feel compelled, or tell your kids to stay away from Johnny or Susie or whoever said it. But at this point she's trying to show her morally superiority through a FB post and that is a huge reason why I left FB in the first place. It's just gross. 

I don't read it like that. If fb is the way to communicate within the group, it seems the easiest way to talk about ground rules for communication and to reach the parents of this child.

It is also entirely possible that one of her children is gay and felt personally attacked by the remark.

Edited November 10, 2018 by regentrude

[Farrar]

In any of the groups I'm in, that would be 100% fine. I definitely think it's unfair to call it virtue signaling if the group's primary communication is FB. Not everything ideologically based on FB is virtue signaling. It seems like she's actually signaling.

If the group is actually as diverse as you say though, I assume it would rub some people the wrong way. It's hard because I honestly wouldn't be okay with a group that's okay with a kid using "gay" as a slur/stand in for "bad" or with a kid saying gays are "bad" in any way. Thus, everything she said seems okay by me. I don't think it sounds like she was trying to differentiate between various Christian takes on LGBTQ people (I mean, there are so many). I think it sounds like she was saying, look, there's a line, making a clear statement that gay=bad is too much regardless of your home views. If I hear it again, fair warning, I'm speaking up, including to the kid, though I'm going to be kind about it. To me, if I was that mom, I think I'd be thinking... if this tears the group apart, I don't want to be part of the group.

[rjand6more]

Calling a comment like that from a kid "hate" is ridiculous.  And assuming said child's parents must rub that off at home is equally ridiculous.

When President Obama was elected, my beautiful little girl(age 5 at the time) said President Obama was a bad president.  My sister in law asked her why.  And she said because he has dark skin!  My sister in law(LOVINGLY) asked her why she would say that.  She said because she liked white skin better!  I assure you we have never said nor given an impression that we don't like dark skinned people.  We do live in a predominantly white area(we grew up here) so she had had very little exposure to  people with darker skin.  We refuse our kids visits with a few racist people we know.  We actively talk about loving all people. 

I think kids just say things sometimes.  I would rather discuss it with my child since I KNOW my child.  Although, I do think if the child was in a group, A gentle, but stern, "That was unkind, Johnny. Let's go chat with your mom in private." is appropriate to let other kids know that ANY unkind speech is not ok.

[LucyStoner]

I actually can see both sides here.  I think it's a generally ok type of post to make and perhaps the post is coming from someone who communicates better in writing than face to face.  That said, I have read posts in that ilk that read a lot more into the actions of kids than I think is reasonable and also know people for whom this type of post is definitely virtue signaling.  It could be that this post was a bit of both:

-Let's discuss group norms/head's up that she won't let it slide next time.  

-OMG her kids heard something bad and she had to explain to them that there's bias in the world, look at how great of an ally she is. 

It doesn't have to be just one or the other.  

The thing that makes me think there might be at least a touch of virtue signaling in the mix is that her kids were shocked.   Why would an ally be shocked by the presence of bias? That's not allyship that's living in a bubble with your own privilege.  

Edited November 10, 2018 by LucyStoner

[maize]

Characterizing a comment by a child as "hate" is problematic. 

If the adult were approaching this as "if I hear something like this I will gently remind the child to be polite when speaking about other people" I would have no problem with it.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, maize said:

Characterizing a comment by a child as "hate" is problematic. 

If the adult were approaching this as "if I hear something like this I will gently remind the child to be polite when speaking about other people" I would have no problem with it.

I agree that using the word “hate” in this context is problematic. And I would have had a major problem had she publicly named the child in question in her post, but she didn’t do that. I would not, however, have a problem with another parent gently correcting my child if they were making false, unkind, or disrespectful comments about others.

I’m not really sure why evangelical vs Catholic or the mom maybe incorrectly thinking everyone in the group agrees with her because 20 people affirmed her comment is relevant though. Is there some reason only she wouldn’t know there are more members than that in the group? She seems to know there are likely members who would not agree with her views on homosexuality. As for using social media to communicate with people I know in IRL, it’s not something I ever do, so I certainly wouldn’t have done it in this case. But without more information, it’s awfully hard to know whether a post like this is out of the ordinary for the group.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Frances

[Bluegoat]

Ok, thanks for the replies.  I can make a few clarifications.

I can see a few people are thinking of this as a more coherent group than it is.  Really, it is simply a FB group where any homeschooler in the province can see what is going on, or people can post things they are running, or ask for recommendations, or anything.  There are no real norms of the group, in terms of behaviours at events - these are all run and attended by different sets of individuals.  The only norms would be not posting rude things and stuff like not advertising.

The Catholic/evangelical/other thing may not matter.  It just struck me that what she considered hate speech seemed to be anything other than her POV.  Since she doesn't wish to tolerate hate speech, that seems to me to be a problem given that many of the events people attend are in fact including people who don't share her POV.  The implication seems to be they would have to refrain from certain topics altogether.  I'm not crazy about this - it happens i the homeschool science fair which doesn't include projects that imply an old Earth, in deference to he few YEC people, and I don't like it then either.

My own feeling was that in this environment, with that age group, it would be fine to say something to the other parents or even just say "that's not an appropriate comment".  Maybe even ask why they think that or say your own family doesn't think that.  Or maybe even say nothing if it meant embarrassing the kids for something ephemeral (and that could apply to the kid who said it or kids who felt it was directed against them.)  Calling them out for being bigoted seems to cross a line . This kid might have been trash-talking without much sense of the implication, parroting something from home, or maybe had misunderstood something he had heard.  But some other adult the doesn't really know teling him that this is bigoted  - I am not sure that is fair.  Almost certainly he wouldn;t be able to defend the idea and I don't like the idea of a strange adult putting him in a position where he'd have to do so.  

And I really don't think the lady who posted would be happy for, say, an evangelical parent to tell her kid that if he was ok with homosexuality his soul was in danger.  But that possibility seems kind of the corollary of this kind of calling out. by moms like this.

I think the thing that bothered me most is what someone suggested - what is the real goal of putting this on FB?  It almost seems like a threat - you people make sure your kid doesn't say the wrong thing, or I will be calling him out on it.  That seems to be a kind of bullying of the kid, unfair no matter what the views of the parents. 

[Bluegoat]

6 hours ago, Frances said:

I agree that using the word “hate” in this context is problematic. And I would have had a major problem had she publicly named the child in question in her post, but she didn’t do that. I would not, however, have a problem with another parent gently correcting my child if they were making false, unkind, or disrespectful comments about others.

I’m not really sure why evangelical vs Catholic or the mom maybe incorrectly thinking everyone in the group agrees with her because 20 people affirmed her comment is relevant though. Is there some reason only she wouldn’t know there are more members than that in the group? She seems to know there are likely members who would not agree with her views on homosexuality. As for using social media to communicate with people I know in IRL, it’s not something I ever do, so I certainly wouldn’t have done it in this case. But without more information, it’s awfully hard to know whether a post like this is out of the ordinary for the group.

 

I'm sure she knows there are more people.  But I know there are people who would actually disagree with her general attitude very seriously - not necessarily that the kids comment was inappropriate - I think most people think that, which is why so many different kinds of events have successfully remained mixed, people seem to know how to mind their own business. That's the cultural tendency here anyway - people might have all kinds of opinions about the nutty things someone does, but they tend to keep them to themselves and just let people get on with being themselves.

But as far as having religious beliefs about the role of sexual behaviour, lots of people, including a lot of the very active planners, have strong views on that which differ from hers, and which it seems she'd consider hateful.  They also tend to be people with quite strong feelings about parents talking to thir own children about such issues.  None of them though have posted in response though, and I kind of wonder about the implications of that.  

[maize]

12 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I'm sure she knows there are more people.  But I know there are people who would actually disagree with her general attitude very seriously - not necessarily that the kids comment was inappropriate - I think most people think that, which is why so many different kinds of events have successfully remained mixed, people seem to know how to mind their own business. That's the cultural tendency here anyway - people might have all kinds of opinions about the nutty things someone does, but they tend to keep them to themselves and just let people get on with being themselves.

But as far as having religious beliefs about the role of sexual behaviour, lots of people, including a lot of the very active planners, have strong views on that which differ from hers, and which it seems she'd consider hateful.  They also tend to be people with quite strong feelings about parents talking to thir own children about such issues.  None of them though have posted in response though, and I kind of wonder about the implications of that.  

The implication is that bullying is an effective tactic for silencing people who disagree with you.

Though I am sure this woman would never recognize her behavior as bullying.

[goldberry]

I would be totally fine with what she posted and not consider it bullying or virtue signalling.... except for the hate part at the end.  That changed the whole context.  I was in a mixed group (evangelicals, secular, atheists) that had to deal with this issue.  It was dealt with in a very matter of fact way that certain comments were not appropriate for our group.  No one had a problem.  

Adding, it would have been handled the same way had it been atheist kids saying "your religion is stupid".  Handling it doesn't have to include a personal judgment.

Edited November 11, 2018 by goldberry

[Pen]

Probably not relevant in Canada at opposite side of continent from us, but current local slang has “bad” as meaning good. Not good in a moral sense, but more like “cool” was / is used to mean, or groovy back in 60s. I think it may be coming out of rap or hip hop. 

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, goldberry said:

I would be totally fine with what she posted and not consider it bullying or virtue signalling.... except for the hate part at the end.  That changed the whole context.  I was in a mixed group (evangelicals, secular, atheists) that had to deal with this issue.  It was dealt with in a very matter of fact way that certain comments were not appropriate for our group.  No one had a problem.  

Adding, it would have been handled the same way had it been atheist kids saying "your religion is stupid".  Handling it doesn't have to include a personal judgment.

 

I don't have a problem with handling it in the moment - but why post on FB?  I don't even know what sort of event this was, it could have been at the library, or a cooking class, or the homeschool swim lessons, or anything really. It's not really like the people posting are a close knit bunch, for all I know they could be on the other end of the province. I don't know who the woman is or her kids, and I don't know who the other kid was.  The family of the kid might not be in the FB group.

I agree about the personal judgement - like someone above said, it is one thing to say, that's not an appropriate/kind thing to say, and another to get into the question of one's views on the topic, which isn't really appropriate with others kids - especially when their parents are there.

[goldberry]

56 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I don't have a problem with handling it in the moment - but why post on FB?

 

That wouldn't have bothered me if it was the common method of communication for the group.  In the group I mentioned, the group leaders sent out an email regarding those types of comments.  But it's possible I'm misunderstanding your group dynamic!

[SKL]

Yeah, I don't like the use of the word "hate" here in this context, though I don't know what the kid said.  I guess if the kid said "gays should all be gassed to death" then that would be hate speech, but something repeated based on what he's heard or learned probably isn't.

I don't love the threat of a person telling my kid off regarding what may be just his good faith understanding of Biblical teachings or whatever.  However, I think my reaction to that post would be to let my kid know (if he didn't already know) that different people have different views on the subject, that we don't judge others or repeat judgmental comments, and that if we do, someone is likely to be offended and tell us off.

I always speak against the assumption that "they must have heard this at home."  In general, kids hear much worse at school and other gatherings of kids than they hear at home.  After a certain age, kids are more likely to repeat what their friends say than to consider their parents' perspectives on these things.  Those who think their kids wouldn't say xyz because they never hear that at home are probably in for an unpleasant surprise.

[Bluegoat]

16 minutes ago, goldberry said:

 

That wouldn't have bothered me if it was the common method of communication for the group.  In the group I mentioned, the group leaders sent out an email regarding those types of comments.  But it's possible I'm misunderstanding your group dynamic!

 

It's not really a group, I guess, which is why it seemed odd.  People post things they are running, selling, looking to buy, resources they are looking for, that kind of thing.  

[Clemsondana]

If I'm understanding it correctly, the thing that makes this weird is that this isn't a group where people know each other.  I'm thinking of 2 homeschool groups that I'm a member of on Facebook.  One is for our co-op.  Facebook isn't our primary method of communication, so if there is a problem we would get an email instead, but either way, the message would have a different tone.  We do sometimes have an issue between students or parents, and we'll get a note asking us to remind our students to be respectful of each other, respect different opinions, and show grace when people are accidentally hurtful.  If somebody is intentionally and repeatedly rude, it's dealt with by the co-op board in accordance with the rules for the group.  

On the other hand, I'm also a member of a 'Town name area homeschoolers' group.  People post recommendations, ask for suggestions, share events, trips, or deals at museums, ask about local rules, umbrellas, co-ops, etc.  While I know many people who are members, I don't know the vast majority of the members, many of whom may live 2 hours away from me.  I would be startled if anybody posted something saying that a homeschool kid somewhere had said something inappropriate, so they had decided that they'd police all things overheard from homeschool kids in the greater town name area.  I'm sure that events are posted to our group that mostly have attendees of various political or religious beliefs, and being fairly moderate I'm sure that if I randomly attended events I could stumble upon conversations that I didn't approve of, in both directions, and who knows what a kid might say to my kid.  

[SKL]

Another thought - not having heard the kid first hand, it's even possible the kid was trying to be appropriate.

Example:

8yo kid hears at school and repeats at home "that's so gay."

Parent says "don't ever say that, it's not nice."

Kid hears "gay" in other context and says "my mom said that's bad."

Other kid hears "my mom said that's bad" and tells his mom that kid said gay is bad.

 

[SKL]

My thought is that families who think gay = bad usually don't go out of their way to teach young children about homosexuality.  Nor do many other families for that matter.  It feels more likely to me that the kid was just confused by something he isn't mature enough to understand.

 I could see my kids (when a little younger) misunderstanding when told that using the word "gay" as a slur is wrong.  Usually when we ban a word, its a word that doesn't have any positive connotations in a kid's vocabulary.  To hear some people talk, their kids were born understanding the distinction, but I think it requires some maturity as well as a thoughtful parent.

[hippiemamato3]

On 11/10/2018 at 1:41 PM, Bluegoat said:

So, this lady on the homeschool org FB group made a post last night, and it really rubs me the wrong way, even though I also would not have been crazy about the comment that prompted it.  People here at WTM have a variety of views but are pretty rational (maybe unlike FB!), I am curious if this is a widespread difference of opinion thing or what.  I'll maybe lay out what happened before saying what in particular rubbed me the wrong way.  (Though I already said in the discussion, which I may regret...)

So, apparently this happened at some sort of homeschooling event.  HS events here are quite mixed generally, you have eclectic people, evangelicals, lots of secular types, lots of unschoolers.  So a wide variety of views on various topics.  People seem to make this work for many activities.

Apparently some kid, elementary school aged, said some sort of comment in passing to her kid about gays being bad.  It seems to be unclear what this kid really meant by that, though my guess is it's some version or interpretation of something heard at home - who knows how accurately understood.  The implication from the woman was that this was an evangelical kid though I am not sure if that is known fact or a guess.  

So, she laid out that this had happened, and wrote a bit about how they teach their kids to be allies and her kids were shocked but are ok, and that she doesn't want anyone to be made by a comment like this to be made to feel excluded or uncomfortable.  She then said something like "fair warning, everyone, if I hear any comments like this in the future I will be gently address it with the kid, we won't stand up for hate."

Subsequently all but one response post was completely right-on agreement, at least 20.  So that seems pretty complete agreement, except that I know there are likely a lot of people that didn't say anything, and I am am not sure the mom knows that.  It also became quite clear that she considers hate in a fairly broad way - she'd not differentiate, for example, a simple evangelical view from a Catholic view - I don't think she knows there is a difference.  (Obviously, this kids comment wasn't really at that level either way, and who knows what the parent's view is.)

 

Thoughts?

 

Hmm...a "simple evangelical view from a Catholic view" about gay people sounds like a subtle way of saying "judging others and hiding behind religion to do so" so yeah, that would be an issue. It's never our place to judge others. 

Edited November 11, 2018 by hippiemamato3

[moonflower]

2 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

lol, we're in (evangelical Protestant) drama club with families who definitely teach this stuff. 'Cos I've heard it discussed in mum's convos. It was a big deal here recently, because we had a plebicite on marriage equality, so that's maybe why it came up. But yeah, I do know there are families who teach their (young) kids that rainbow flags mean gay and gay is sin (bad in young kids lingo?)

There's a middle school kid there who loves to chat to the mums, and I've had more than one conversation with her where she's been musing on how confusing it is that she really likes friend X but friend X had a rainbow flag at her house, and so she's not going to heaven, so how can she be a nice friend ? It's whack. 

For reference, I just sit there and go 'Mmmm....mmmm....it's very confusing, isn't it....maybe you should talk to Mum about it....mmm....mmmm.'

I don't say 'Get away with your hate speech, young bigot!'

 

 

Well, to be fair, a number of people on this board would not think twice if instead of rainbow flag the friend x had a confederate flag (esp in a non-southern state) and the kid you were talking to had been told to steer clear or be wary because people with confederate flags are racists (that is to say, bad in kid's lingo).  

[Farrar]

To me if a kid, regardless of age, says that gay is bad, that is an example of hate speech, plain and simple. And as long as the parents and adults are gentle and age appropriate in the way they approach that, using the correct terminology for what they said is a good thing to do. I think we don't help kids be better when they grow up when we don't call racism racism or homophobia homophobia or hate speech hate speech. Name it. Again, in a gentle, age appropriate, educational way.

[Condessa]

On the surface, the interaction seems fine, though a little weird that she didn’t choose to deal with it by letting the child’s mom know.  But a few things jump out that do make it seem like virtue signaling: 

1) She chose to announce her feelings and intentions about this interaction on a public communication board instead of communicating with either a parent or the child or an organizer of the actual event in order to constructively deal with the issue.

2) She “wrote a bit about how they teach their kids to be allies and her kids were shocked but are ok”— why is the fact that she teaches her children this relevant to a conversation about encouraging everyone at public events to be kind and welcoming at all?  Unless it was specifically to draw a contrast between her children’s training and others’.

3) Classifying an inappropriate comment made in passing by a young child as “hate”.  It seems way more likely that the young kid was parroting or reinterpreting something they had heard than that they were actually being hateful when they made this comment.  Maybe she didn’t mean it this way, and I know that some people nowadays use the word “hate” to describe any expression of bigotry or bias, but the only instances where I have heard someone irl use the word “hate” that way, they absolutely were virtue signaling by trying to broadly paint people saying wrong things as evil and hateful, as opposed to themselves, instead of stating that they were wrong and this is why.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Michelle Conde

[kiwik]

On 11/11/2018 at 10:59 AM, StellaM said:

Elementary ? The kid is parroting what he hears at home. If he'd said it to me, I would have said 'Oh really ? Our family likes gay people.' and left it at that.

I'm not entirely sure I wouldn't have raised the issue, given it's a mixed group, in a similar way. I think what I'd type, though, is more of a general reminder that the group is mixed, and we have a diverse range of opinions, and that quick reminders to our kids to be polite to and about everyone helps the group function smoothly. I wouldn't use the word 'hate'. 

I have raised the issue of 'gay' being used as a slur, at high school age, with a mixed group I ran in my home. That's because it's my home, I'm entitled to have a line re language, especially given I have gay kids. My kids don't use anti-Christian slurs, so I saw no reason why the Christian kids should use gay slurs. I didn't use the word 'hate' or the word 'ally' - I said something about feeling unhappy about the specific language being used, for reasons, and could parents please request their highschoolers to refrain while attending book club. They all did, there were no problems. (It probably helped that I was running book club for free, lol)

 

 

I took a younger friends younger cousin to task for saying something was "gay' as a put down to be told airily that "it doesn't mean that any more it just means something that is (I can't think of a good word but you know what I mean).  I fairly gently asked her why gay came to mean that and did she think that it meant that someone was implying that gay people were ().  She was genuinely surprised.  I gave up.

[mom@shiloh]

On 11/10/2018 at 4:59 PM, StellaM said:

Elementary ? The kid is parroting what he hears at home. If he'd said it to me, I would have said 'Oh really ? Our family likes gay people.' and left it at that.

 

2

 

I disagree that the kid is necessarily parroting what he's heard at home. My kids have said things that make my jaw drop, mostly because they've taken something out of context or interpreted comments inaccurately. I'm really hoping other people offer me grace and don't assume that everything that comes out of my kids' mouths is a direct quote from me!!!  

Since we don't know exactly what child #1 said to child #2 -- and unless the mom was present, she doesn't know either -- I think the appropriate response is to handle it with your own child and give them coaching on how to address it in the moment. Taking it to the FB group, would get an eye-roll from me. 

Kids say stupid things. Other kids may or may not have perfect hearing. Unless it's a persistent problem, handle it with your own kids and move on.

[HomeAgain]

I don't think "if I hear any comments like this in the future I will be gently address it with the kid, we won't stand up for hate."  is bullying.  You may not like the language she chose, but it sounds like she's trying to make an inclusive group and addressing comments that are dividing, rather than including, are the goal.  And frankly, if my kid came up with off the wall ideas I'd really like another part of his village to reinforce the message we send at home: that's not okay.  And if I did hold beliefs that were dividing and hurtful to others, I'd want my soul challenged so I knew deep down what was my core belief and defend that/find my tribe.

I think a lot of what is being said here is stretching the original post into something that is unrecognizable.  "She said the word hate! It's bullying!".  No, it's not.  Nor is it said that the child learned this at home, but if they did, it gives parents an opportunity to clarify and reinforce their beliefs. 

When did the thought of gently addressing something with the person responsible become an outrageous action?

[mom@shiloh]

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

When did the thought of gently addressing something with the person responsible become an outrageous action?

 

 

I agree that if an adult hears one of my children say something unkind or inappropriate, I am fine with them gently addressing it. If it's persistent, I would expect that adult to bring it to my attention so that I can address it in the way I deem appropriate. That doesn't seem to be the situation here. This mom is publicly addressing something that her child heard and there's no way to confirm the veracity of either what was said or what was heard.  I think that's shaky ground for a public scolding. 

[Condessa]

 

2 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

" it sounds like she's trying to make an inclusive group "

 

But she didn't address it with the group holding the event where it happened.  She announced her intentions on a regional public notice board.

[Bluegoat]

18 hours ago, ClemsonDana said:

If I'm understanding it correctly, the thing that makes this weird is that this isn't a group where people know each other.  I'm thinking of 2 homeschool groups that I'm a member of on Facebook.  One is for our co-op.  Facebook isn't our primary method of communication, so if there is a problem we would get an email instead, but either way, the message would have a different tone.  We do sometimes have an issue between students or parents, and we'll get a note asking us to remind our students to be respectful of each other, respect different opinions, and show grace when people are accidentally hurtful.  If somebody is intentionally and repeatedly rude, it's dealt with by the co-op board in accordance with the rules for the group.  

On the other hand, I'm also a member of a 'Town name area homeschoolers' group.  People post recommendations, ask for suggestions, share events, trips, or deals at museums, ask about local rules, umbrellas, co-ops, etc.  While I know many people who are members, I don't know the vast majority of the members, many of whom may live 2 hours away from me.  I would be startled if anybody posted something saying that a homeschool kid somewhere had said something inappropriate, so they had decided that they'd police all things overheard from homeschool kids in the greater town name area.  I'm sure that events are posted to our group that mostly have attendees of various political or religious beliefs, and being fairly moderate I'm sure that if I randomly attended events I could stumble upon conversations that I didn't approve of, in both directions, and who knows what a kid might say to my kid.  

 

Yes, this exactly.  It was just so out of place to put something like that, which could be a bit forward even among people you know, it in that particular group.

[Bluegoat]

17 hours ago, StellaM said:

Bluegoat, how did people respond ? I know you said there was radio silence from a couple of families, but did anyone jump in with a 'yeah sister!' or 'I don't think we should use the word 'hate' when referring to children's speech' or was it all just awkward attempts to smooth things over ?

 

So, the vast majority of responses were of the "preach it sister" type.  Actually, all but one.  That was probably around 20 to 25 posts.  One post that disagreed was from a black family of religious homeschoolers, so I am guessing Baptists - but her disagreement was so kind and gentle, I had the impression that the original poster didn't understand that she was disagreeing.  I disagreed, and it was impossible to miss - one guy said, twice, that we should not stand up for hate!  

The OP did not seem to be able to see what my problem was - this was when it became clear to me that in her mind the options were speak out against hate and agree with the progressive opinion on everything, or be ok with hate against any controversial race gender sex and sexuality topic.  She wasn't aware of any more complicated viewpoints.  (She also mentioned explicitly that in her mind, not calling this out  this was the same as allow kids to make racial slurs without calling them out.)    

I am actually a little disturbed by the lack of any other pushback - not only from evangelicals but I know there is also a Catholic and Orthodox community  - who I am sure would not want their kids to say gays are bad, but also would not like the assumption that they must otherwise be ok with the standard progressive secular position.  Maybe though they were wiser than me and just figured since it wouldn't likely affect their kids, they'd keep quiet.  I do wonder if the evangelicals might be inclined to think it's all the more reason to operate separately.

[HomeAgain]

2 hours ago, mom@shiloh said:

 

I agree that if an adult hears one of my children say something unkind or inappropriate, I am fine with them gently addressing it. If it's persistent, I would expect that adult to bring it to my attention so that I can address it in the way I deem appropriate. That doesn't seem to be the situation here. This mom is publicly addressing something that her child heard and there's no way to confirm the veracity of either what was said or what was heard.  I think that's shaky ground for a public scolding. 

I didn't get the vibe of a public scolding.  No one was singled out.  It was a heads up. 

 

1 hour ago, texasmom33 said:

Some people might think, well, this woman said "gently".  But who knows what that means. My understanding from OP's subsequent posts is that this is a FB group for people linked only by sharing the term "homeschooler" and being in a general geographic area. It's not a co-op or anything else with leadership or membership, so it reads to me like she's planning to address the children of complete strangers. Or well, putting them on notice that she would.

I think this is making a mountain out of a molehill, being upset that someone may gently correct a child in the future because you don't think that your interpretation of gentle is the same as theirs.  Goodness, why bother giving people fair notice anymore?  Thankfully I'm the type to call someone's kid out for being a weenie without making sure it's okay with their mom first so I don't deal with this sort of handwringing over nothing.  I can see how that may raise hackles, but I don't care.  A kid needs to learn straight up not to be a weenie in public because their community won't take kindly to it.  If mom has an issue she needs to think about not letting her kid be obnoxious to other people.

[Bluegoat]

16 hours ago, hippiemamato3 said:

 

Hmm...a "simple evangelical view from a Catholic view" about gay people sounds like a subtle way of saying "judging others and hiding behind religion to do so" so yeah, that would be an issue. It's never our place to judge others. 

 

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here.  Homeschoolers are a mixed community here, you will meet people who disagree about stuff with you.  Whatever particular worldview you subscribe to.

[HomeAgain]

3 minutes ago, texasmom33 said:

My point was mountains get made out of molehills every single day now. Your (general you) control ends when the words to another’s child leave your mouth. This isn’t 1950 and your odds are probably 50/50 that Mom and Dad say thanks or Mom and Dad post about your action on FB and rain down a hell of fury on you. We watched a woman get punched in the face  at fast food restaurant because she corrected a mother’s parenting of her teen daughter in the ordering line. The mother took it as a racial offense that the other woman corrected her parenting, and decked her and laid her out. Right there. People certainly have a legal right to say what they will to whomever’s children they please, but they should do so recognizing that in the day and age it could blow up out of their control very easily. 

Thanks for the warning but I refuse to live a life where I'm afraid of doing the right thing.  Nipping behavior in the bud when it negatively affects your community and your community's children is the right thing.  If mom decides to throw a punch, then calling the cops is the right thing.  Telling a kid quickly, "that's not cool.  It's hurtful." or when it's very serious, adding, "go find your mama and tell her what you did.  I'll be over there in a minute to talk to her myself." then laying down the issue and taking it to the organizers level if need be, is the right thing.
There are steps.  Doing nothing is never right.

[Bluegoat]

4 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

I don't think "if I hear any comments like this in the future I will be gently address it with the kid, we won't stand up for hate."  is bullying.  You may not like the language she chose, but it sounds like she's trying to make an inclusive group and addressing comments that are dividing, rather than including, are the goal.  And frankly, if my kid came up with off the wall ideas I'd really like another part of his village to reinforce the message we send at home: that's not okay.  And if I did hold beliefs that were dividing and hurtful to others, I'd want my soul challenged so I knew deep down what was my core belief and defend that/find my tribe.

I think a lot of what is being said here is stretching the original post into something that is unrecognizable.  "She said the word hate! It's bullying!".  No, it's not.  Nor is it said that the child learned this at home, but if they did, it gives parents an opportunity to clarify and reinforce their beliefs. 

When did the thought of gently addressing something with the person responsible become an outrageous action?

 

I think the problem is she is making this assumption that the ideas all parents should have and teach their kids are the same as her ideas on this topic.  She isn't saying "This isn't the right place to say that now" to the kid, nor is she mentioning it to the parents who are there.  She is telling them they/their kid needs to have a particular view on homosexuality - on a board that is open to any homeschooler in the province.  THe message isn't just about good group interaction, she is bringing in a lot more about her ideas than that, or there would have been no need for a four paragraph FB post. She's going to tell these kids not that they are being rude, but that their view of homosexuality is wrong.  I think that is seriously overstepping with the kids of random people you don't know, whether or not you think their view is wrong.  It's very similar to telling other people's kids that if they support gay marriage or something similar they could go to Hell, it's way overstepping bounds, not to mention you really don't know enough about the people you are talking to to address them in that way.  (As it happens, I asked if she would mind others talking to her kids that way, and she said it would be fine, but it didn't occur to her that they might be parents who objected to her kids support of gay rights - that idea seemed to flummox her a little.)

The bullying is expecting young kids to be able to respond to an adult asking them to defend ideas they are not developmentally capable of defending yet.  It is possible that some of these kids have learned at home that "being gay" is a sin - whatever that means to someone who is 8 or 10.  When some adult they barely know is suddenly telling them that is wrong, it puts that child in a difficult position - what are they supposed to do?  Argue with her and be disrespectful?  They likely don't really understand the ideas involved anyway, but given that is what they have been taught, they may feel like they really have to stand up for it.  Against an adult.

I take a pretty high view of kids as persons who can ultimately make their own moral decisions - I even make myself stand back a little to make sure my own kids have room to do this.  And a big part of that is because as an adult, I could really overwhelm their capacities when they are younger and to me that is the essence of intellectual bullying - they need to have room to grow and learn and contemplate these things.   Confronting kids I don't know would be just as bad.  

 

[HomeAgain]

3 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I think the problem is she is making this assumption that the ideas all parents should have and teach their kids are the same as her ideas on this topic.  She isn't saying "This isn't the right place to say that now" to the kid, nor is she mentioning it to the parents who are there.  She is telling them they/their kid needs to have a particular view on homosexuality - on a board that is open to any homeschooler in the province.  THe message isn't just about good group interaction, she is bringing in a lot more about her ideas than that, or there would have been no need for a four paragraph FB post. She's going to tell these kids not that they are being rude, but that their view of homosexuality is wrong.  I think that is seriously overstepping with the kids of random people you don't know, whether or not you think their view is wrong.  It's very similar to telling other people's kids that if they support gay marriage or something similar they could go to Hell, it's way overstepping bounds, not to mention you really don't know enough about the people you are talking to to address them in that way.  (As it happens, I asked if she would mind others talking to her kids that way, and she said it would be fine, but it didn't occur to her that they might be parents who objected to her kids support of gay rights - that idea seemed to flummox her a little.)

The bullying is expecting young kids to be able to respond to an adult asking them to defend ideas they are not developmentally capable of defending yet.  It is possible that some of these kids have learned at home that "being gay" is a sin - whatever that means to someone who is 8 or 10.  When some adult they barely know is suddenly telling them that is wrong, it puts that child in a difficult position - what are they supposed to do?  Argue with her and be disrespectful?  They likely don't really understand the ideas involved anyway, but given that is what they have been taught, they may feel like they really have to stand up for it.  Against an adult.

I take a pretty high view of kids as persons who can ultimately make their own moral decisions - I even make myself stand back a little to make sure my own kids have room to do this.  And a big part of that is because as an adult, I could really overwhelm their capacities when they are younger and to me that is the essence of intellectual bullying - they need to have room to grow and learn and contemplate these things.   Confronting kids I don't know would be just as bad.  

 

I think without knowing exactly what was said, it's very hard for us to read more into it than the general idea of "we don't say that here and I will correct your child if need be".

I also think that parents really need to reinforce the difference between "this is God's teaching for US" and "this is how you need to view the world".  And I think that you wouldn't be out of line in helping the OP in your group clarify that if it came to it.

But I'm never going to be in favor of teaching kids to hate without dealing with significant pushback from their society on that issue.

[unsinkable]

13 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

I feel like I'm speaking in dolphin, not human, half the time these days since so many people I encounter can't make heads or tails of what comes out of my mouth, though it seems pretty straightforward to me. On every single thing (even dumb stuff, not necessarily political opinions), there are two choices now, and anything less than emphatic agreement with one choice means you're on the other side. IRL probably even more so than online, but I've got very smart online friends ?  

 "Yeah, "oh sh!t." Took a hard, hard, violent fall. Kind of pinballed down. Hit a lot of railings, broke a lot of sh!t. I'm not going to say I survived, I'm going to say I thrived. I met a dolphin down there. And I swear to God, that dolphin looked not at me, but into my soul, into my g--d--n soul, Annie. And he said, "I'm saving you Megan." Not with his mouth, but he said it, I'm assuming, telepathically. "

/Bridesmaids

[mellifera33]

19 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

 "Yeah, "oh sh!t." Took a hard, hard, violent fall. Kind of pinballed down. Hit a lot of railings, broke a lot of sh!t. I'm not going to say I survived, I'm going to say I thrived. I met a dolphin down there. And I swear to God, that dolphin looked not at me, but into my soul, into my g--d--n soul, Annie. And he said, "I'm saving you Megan." Not with his mouth, but he said it, I'm assuming, telepathically. "

/Bridesmaids

I saw this in the little preview in the thread list and thought "oh my, this thread has certainly taken a turn." I'm both relieved and disappointed that this is a movie quote. 

[unsinkable]

10 minutes ago, mellifera33 said:

I saw this in the little preview in the thread list and thought "oh my, this thread has certainly taken a turn." I'm both relieved and disappointed that this is a movie quote. 

 

One of my girlfriends said I have a movie quote for any occasion. :lol:

i see a phrase and sometimes a quote or scene just pops into my head. 

I'm embarrassed at how hard I laughed at Bridesmaids...it was so raunchy. And I can't believe it came out in 2011!!!

[maize]

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

But I'm never going to be in favor of teaching kids to hate without dealing with significant pushback from their society on that issue.

Are you perhaps in favor of teaching children to hate people who have a different opinion from them on a political or moral matter?

Of encouraging people to shut children down if they express an opinion on a political or moral matter that is different from the current ascendant progressive view?

What does "pushback" against opinions that differ from yours look like to the person being pushed back?

The word "hate" falls quick and easy from some lips these days.

Edited November 12, 2018 by maize

[Garga]

1 hour ago, OKBud said:

 

 On every single thing (even dumb stuff, not necessarily political opinions), there are two choices now, and anything less than emphatic agreement with one choice means you're on the other side. IRL probably even more so than online, but I've got very smart online friends ?  

This!  1000 times!  No one believes I’m moderate, though I am.  They assume I’m in whatever camp is opposite to them.  It’s frustrating. 

[maize]

3 minutes ago, Garga said:

This!  1000 times!  No one believes I’m moderate, though I am.  They assume I’m in whatever camp is opposite to them.  It’s frustrating. 

I've encountered this too--it's so preposterous the way it plays out that it is kind of hilarious.

Liberals think I'm a right wing extremist and conservatives think I'm a libtard.

It's like we've lost the ability to think in anything except black and white categories.

Edited November 12, 2018 by maize

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Bluegoat said:

  

I am actually a little disturbed by the lack of any other pushback - not only from evangelicals but I know there is also a Catholic and Orthodox community  - who I am sure would not want their kids to say gays are bad, but also would not like the assumption that they must otherwise be ok with the standard progressive secular position.  Maybe though they were wiser than me and just figured since it wouldn't likely affect their kids, they'd keep quiet.  I do wonder if the evangelicals might be inclined to think it's all the more reason to operate separately.

I would have been very unlikely to respond for several reasons.

1) The post was over the top IMO, so most likely this person is not "rational" the way I define it, at least not right now.  (We all have our moments - I have seen people go nuts on fb because of alcohol, meds, severe stress over a family crisis, and sometimes just because they are nuts.)

2) I try not to have those kinds of discussions where the people reading know my kids and may impact them in any way.

3) The chances of changing anyone's mind via fb posts is approximately zero anyway.

If I did comment, it would have been extremely mild.  I have seen how a normal rational comment can start a world war on the right battlefield.

[HomeAgain]

24 minutes ago, maize said:

Are you perhaps in favor of teaching children to hate people who have a different opinion from them on a political or moral matter?

Of encouraging people to shut children down if they express an opinion on a political or moral matter that is different from the current ascendant progressive view?

What does "pushback" against opinions that differ from yours look like to the person being pushed back?

The word "hate" falls quick and easy from some lips these days.

I don't understand how your questions follow my statement of "But I'm never going to be in favor of teaching kids to hate without dealing with significant pushback from their society on that issue."

If a political or moral opinion is held out of fear or oppression of a people, that is not a just political or moral opinion. It hurts people.  I would want my children to stand up against that.
If a political opinion or moral opinion is held and it does not hurt those around them, but either acts as a personal governance (and not a person foisting oppression on others) or is merely another way of looking at the world, I would want my children to step back and allow the same respect and weight to that as they would expect a person to respect their own.
By teaching my children that oppression deserves equal weight in the world, I would be teaching them to hate, and I would expect society to push back.

[Condessa]

2 hours ago, Garga said:

This!  1000 times!  No one believes I’m moderate, though I am.  They assume I’m in whatever camp is opposite to them.  It’s frustrating. 

 

2 hours ago, maize said:

I've encountered this too--it's so preposterous the way it plays out that it is kind of hilarious.

Liberals think I'm a right wing extremist and conservatives think I'm a libtard.

It's like we've lost the ability to think in anything except black and white categories.

 

Exactly!  It's nuts!  It's assumed that the only two possible answers to a politically-charged comment are : A) preach it! or B) whatever coming out of my mouth is actually a pack of lies and my true views/reasoning are the most evil and nefarious that you can conceive of.  

A relative of mine decided a while back that I am an evil racist who hates brown people, because I said that I thought we should change immigration law to make it much easier for people to immigrate here legally, rather than ignoring immigration law.  The only possible positions in her mind were 100% agreement with her position or pure evil.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Michelle Conde

[Bluegoat]

4 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

I don't understand how your questions follow my statement of "But I'm never going to be in favor of teaching kids to hate without dealing with significant pushback from their society on that issue."

If a political or moral opinion is held out of fear or oppression of a people, that is not a just political or moral opinion. It hurts people.  I would want my children to stand up against that.
If a political opinion or moral opinion is held and it does not hurt those around them, but either acts as a personal governance (and not a person foisting oppression on others) or is merely another way of looking at the world, I would want my children to step back and allow the same respect and weight to that as they would expect a person to respect their own.
By teaching my children that oppression deserves equal weight in the world, I would be teaching them to hate, and I would expect society to push back.

 

But the principle here then is that it is ok for you to correct other people's kids on issues they consider morally important.  Great, I guess, if you are the one doing the correcting, if you feels the safety of the weight of public opinion.

Of course 50 years ago, your kid saying they are ok with gays might be the one other adults are correcting, in order to maintain moral standards, in order to avoid creating environment that promotes hurtful practices - and all with the weight of social opinion behind them.

[Bluegoat]

50 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Interesting.

If I chose to tackle a sub group specific issue - and this is a minor one, in the absence of any other information - in a large group context, obviously I'd go general and send out a reminder that the group is diverse in beliefs, and remind your kids to be polite to  and about others. 

I think if it needed tackling specifically - if, for example, it became a pattern of taunting or teasing -, it could have been done privately, parent to parent. 

If the parents were unresponsive, and the problem escalated, I'd take it to whomever ran the group. If I got no response there, I'd leave the group (if it actually appeared to be hostile to my concerns) and share the reason why when asked.

It rubs me up the wrong way for a parent to say they would 'gently correct' my elementary aged child. No, thank you. That's my job. Bring it to me if you have a problem. 

I don't think there is much of a critique of the concept of hate speech from a progressive pov, in which it is defined very broadly. 

So I am not surprised the mom called this out as hate speech. I am a bit suprised given the child was elementary aged, and it was hearsay.

In that same situation, I would have talked with my kids about how different families have different views, that in our family gay people are just like other people, that is it OK to politely respond, and role play some possible responses if it happens again. But what do I know ? I'm a heretic progressive, lol

 

 

Yeah, that is what I would likely do if I thought something needed to be said in a large group - though in this case I think I still would find that particular FB group a weird place to do it.  It seems a bit like, you had a problem in New York so you put out a message to the whole country.

There is something odd about the way people talk about hate speech - I am starting to think maybe people are really not talking about the same thing as I understand it to mean, or what it means in law.

[HomeAgain]

24 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

But the principle here then is that it is ok for you to correct other people's kids on issues they consider morally important.  Great, I guess, if you are the one doing the correcting, if you feels the safety of the weight of public opinion.

Of course 50 years ago, your kid saying they are ok with gays might be the one other adults are correcting, in order to maintain moral standards, in order to avoid creating environment that promotes hurtful practices - and all with the weight of social opinion behind them.

No, the principle here is that is it okay for me to stop another person's kid when they are hurting members of the group.  Again, I have no issue with you living your life in a way that follows a specific moral path.  I take issue when people use that moral path for themselves as a way to oppress or hurt others.

[Bluegoat]

16 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

No, the principle here is that is it okay for me to stop another person's kid when they are hurting members of the group.  Again, I have no issue with you living your life in a way that follows a specific moral path.  I take issue when people use that moral path for themselves as a way to oppress or hurt others.

 

People always think that the reason for their way of life is because it is better for people, less hurtful in the ways that matter.  

In any case, correcting someone for an inappropriate social comment isn't really the same as telling them the problem is that their view is bigoted/hateful.