Prolonged adolescence and suburbia

[Carrie12345]

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I never said that. I merely commented that being dependent on an adult driver means the teen is not independent, as the poster to whom I responded claimed.

 

I think people are using different definitions, though.  I mean, we could say that I'm not independent.  I don't have a job, so my transportation is entirely dependent on dh making the money to "allow" me to get places.  I don't believe that's what this conversation is really about.

[marbel]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I never said that. I merely commented that being dependent on an adult driver means the teen is not independent, as the poster to whom I responded claimed.

 

I think Jean was pointing out that there are different ways of being independent, simply being able to drive oneself places is not the only way. At least, that's how I took her posts, maybe because I agree with them. :-)

[regentrude]

Certainly, the issues with infantilizing children and teens go much deeper, but I definitely think that city planning is a contributing factor.

Take a simple think like so few kids walking to school. For some it's too far because of sprawl, but even those who live in walking distance mostly are driven - because there are no sidewalks and no crossings, because parents perceive walking to school as dangerous. Consequently, few kids walk, which makes is less safe for the few who do (motorists being less used to kids on the street, predators being able to target lone individuals). The parental and societal perception about kids walking is directly informed by the walkability of their neighborhoord

[Bluegoat]

I think the general premise is that extended adolescence comes out of things like lack of opportunities for real independence, to have real and significant responsibilities, the chance to make important decisions (even badly,)  having responsibility for self.  These are the things that cause the increase of experience and brain development that creates maturity.

Access to transport is one component in this, for many, in part because it simply takes the child out from under the parent.  The fact is, as long as there is a parent physically present, a kid is in the position of being the kid at that moment.  The same goes for other adults who are in charge in a parental the role, like a teacher. There are lots of other forums where that kind of independence can take place, but a lot of them are being restricted too.  

One of the communities I know where the kids really have that, in spades, they don't have access to public transport.  But they do work and are integral to the financial and general success of their families, they have responsibilities to fulfill where there is potentially real consequences if they don't, others depend on them, and they are sometimes the ones in charge of the situation including how to solve serious problems.

For average kids in most places, that stuff isn't a factor.  So - how do kids get some of that?  The ability to get around without the parents does seem to become a limited factor.

[fairfarmhand]

Physical independence is not the same as emotional independence. One can be emotionally independent anywhere whether or not one is able to get where they need to go on their own. The prolonged adolescence is a sign of emotional dependence. ( I realize that some emotional dependence is healthy. Too much is not healthy.)

[Bluegoat]

6 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Certainly, the issues with infantilizing children and teens go much deeper, but I definitely think that city planning is a contributing factor.

Take a simple think like so few kids walking to school. For some it's too far because of sprawl, but even those who live in walking distance mostly are driven - because there are no sidewalks and no crossings, because parents perceive walking to school as dangerous. Consequently, few kids walk, which makes is less safe for the few who do (motorists being less used to kids on the street, predators being able to target lone individuals). The parental and societal perception about kids walking is directly informed by the walkability of their neighborhoord

 

Yes.

I think too, if we think about this in a different context it becomes more clear.  What about someone who is an adult, but disabled?  Do they perceive the built environment as limiting their empowerment, their ability to function, even their ability to act as an independent adult?  You bet they do.  

And does that affect other people's perceptions of their capability?  Does it affect their own perceptions?  Again, I think the answer is clearly yes.

[skimomma]

We bought our house when dd was a baby specifically with this in mind.  We can walk/bike to almost anything.  There is no public transit, not just in our town but in our entire very large, but sparsely populated region so that is just not a thing for the kids that we know.  My dd walks/bikes to many activities and to visit friends/shop/library/etc.... much of the time.  But unfortunately, due to weather, any ongoing commitment she signs up for does need to fit into our schedule so that one of us can drive her.  For 6 months of the year, biking is 100% out of the question and walking is limited to a handful of places.  Sidewalks are not cleared here in the winter and walking in the road with darkness, heavy snow, and ice is not safe.  Dd is very active in many different things and being available to drive her takes more of my time than anything else I do even though it is rare that an activity is not within a 2 mile radius of our home.  She also knows that signing up for an activity where she has to be driven, means committing the time and effort to chisel out the car.....which often takes way more time than walking would have and far more exertion.   

In our case, I don't see a direct link to slower maturity.  If we had public transit, dd would use it.  We travel to major US cities and abroad where we make extensive use of the buses, trains, and subways.  She has navigated public transit on her own in foreign countries.  She asks us and checks schedules before committing to anything that requires our help for transport and she often seeks ride sharing opportunities.  

I do agree that community planning has caused all sorts of problems.  I do think newly developed areas should be required to plan for other modes of transportation other than individual car ownership.  I think we will see a big shift with car-sharing and driver-less cars in the near future.  Even Uber and Lift have changed transport significantly already.  But I know my own small city has no viable options at this time.  Keeping the sidewalks clear in winter is literally impossible and we simply do not have the population base to make busses work unless they were heavily publicly subsidized.

[Carrie12345]

2 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Physical independence is not the same as emotional independence. One can be emotionally independent anywhere whether or not one is able to get where they need to go on their own. The prolonged adolescence is a sign of emotional dependence. ( I realize that some emotional dependence is healthy. Too much is not healthy.)

 

Thinking on it some more... I think there's a personality factor that can be made or broken depending on how it's fostered (or not fostered.)  I have a very dependent sibling, and another sibling who is somewhere in between the two of us.  And it's not in the birth order that might be expected.  I have talked about this with my mother, and her response is that I've always been the strong one.  In hindsight, I can see where her parenting supported my independence AND my sister's dependence.  We grew up in the same dang neighborhood!

[sweet2ndchance]

As a teenager, I lived on the outskirts of a metro area and then we moved to a semi rural area in another state. Neither had public transportation nor was there anywhere within walking distance worth going or safe enough to walk to (narrow county roads with no sidewalks).

I never felt like I was limited by where my parents would drive me. If my parents couldn't drive me, I could ask a friend or their parent for a ride to or from whatever it was. And when my parents did take me, we often took friends who needed a ride with us. My parents didn't arrange these rides for me, I did and so did my friends. Being able to find a way to get where you want to go, in spite of parental availability and lack of public transportation is, I believe, a form of maturity and independence as well.

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

But even in situations where walkability is possible, it’s not allowed without a parent. It’s absolutely possible for kids to walk to the elementary school here. There are even crosswalks in the lot.  But the school won’t allow kids to walk across the parking lot without an adult.  Even with crosswalks. So even if kids walk, and some do, parents still have to walk with them.  The kids still can’t do it independently.  Of course the issue of kids in the parking lot could be solved with a couple of crossing guards but that won’t happen. 

and that is probably caused by this sue happy society where the school has to cover their behind by having insane policies like this. 

Clearly, city planning is not the only factor.

[Bluegoat]

So - liability issues mean kids can't walk alone to school.  People get the idea that it is too dangerous for kids to walk alone to school.  Where to build a new school - who cares about whether kids can walk to it, that's crazy!

[fairfarmhand]

15 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Yes.

I think too, if we think about this in a different context it becomes more clear.  What about someone who is an adult, but disabled?  Do they perceive the built environment as limiting their empowerment, their ability to function, even their ability to act as an independent adult?  You bet they do.  

And does that affect other people's perceptions of their capability?  Does it affect their own perceptions?  Again, I think the answer is clearly yes.

I don’t know. I have 2 brothers both of whom share the same disability. It’s not awful but it does limit them in some ways. (Along the lines of deafness or epilepsy) my youngest brother is amazing with how he has dealt with it. He’s traveled all over the world by himself. He lived in a major metropolitan area by choice so he could be independent. And from that decision he chose to move to a large city in Turkey. Alone. He regularly travels through Europe. I’m so jealous I can’t stand it. I’ve never done the things he’s done despite not sharing that disability. My older brother—a successful professor with his PhD. And an excellent father. Living independently. Divorced but managing in spite of his limitations without a spouse. 

The thing with both of my brothers is that they were raised to do what they needed to do to be independent. Even if it was a little embarrassing. And they both chose urban areas to access assistance for their issues. My grandfather shared this disability and lived his whole life making his own way. I just know that my mom saw her dad push himself out of his comfort zone to make his way even when it was hard and she pushed my brothers to take ownership of themselves and be independent in ways they could be proud of so the inability to drive wasn’t a defining feature.

(This in no way makes me an expert on disability, I realize that many individuals have issues that don’t have easy answers.)

 

[skimomma]

7 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Certainly, the issues with infantilizing children and teens go much deeper, but I definitely think that city planning is a contributing factor.

Take a simple think like so few kids walking to school. For some it's too far because of sprawl, but even those who live in walking distance mostly are driven - because there are no sidewalks and no crossings, because parents perceive walking to school as dangerous. Consequently, few kids walk, which makes is less safe for the few who do (motorists being less used to kids on the street, predators being able to target lone individuals). The parental and societal perception about kids walking is directly informed by the walkability of their neighborhoord

 

This can spiral too.  I live 4 blocks from the public elementary school.  The bus picks up the kids on my block one FULL hour before school so they are basically sitting in a bus going all over town to get to a place that would take 8 minutes to walk to.  The ones not on the bus get driven four blocks to avoid the hour long bus ride.  When this first came to my attention, I was outraged.  I asked the neighbors why they chose to do that.  Why not have their kids walk.  The school does not allow walkers.  So then I was outraged at the school.  So I ask about that.  They don't allow it (unless a parent walks them) because the students arrive in the morning while it is still dark and there are no street lights, crosswalks, or sidewalks on the roads surrounding the school.  So then I am outraged at the city.  So I ask about that.  Well....as school of choice got more popular traffic increased around the school (and was increasing for other reasons too) resulting in more parents getting nervous about their kids walking.....so more kids getting driven....so more traffic....so even less walkers.....until there were so few that the school and city decided that maintaining sidewalks and streetlights was no longer worth it as it encouraged walking on a now-dangerous road. The school was not designed to handle so many parents driving their kids so now they have to add a road to accommodate them.  And that road has to be cheap (budget issues AND "kids these days" don't walk anyways.....) so will not have sidewalks or streetlights.   It is maddening.

[Joker]

I do think the walking to school stuff has changed a lot. Our middle school is across the street from a huge subdivision but the intersection is one of the worst. The city won't use crossing guards because they say it's too dangerous -and it truly is. Why they planned it that way I'll never know. Our high school has an officer directing traffic because it gets bad, but in the three years we've lived here the officer has been hit twice. ?

[SKL]

I also think it has a lot to do with community perceptions of what is safe.

This came up the other day.  My kid's track practice is 1 mile from school.  I gave her permission to walk it (she was 10 when this started).  She knows the way and it is through a nice neighborhood at probably the safest hour to be walking down a city street.  Yet the second-guessers had to question it.  Last year a friend's mom gave her a ride, this year a coach is doing so.  I am fine with her getting a ride, but the reason is a problem.  In a couple of years, my kids want to go to a school kind of far away.  I'm sure they will want to do after-school activities, meaning that they will have to find their own transportation home.  Thankfully we have bus service all over the county, but it will surely involve planning and transfers.  My friends are aghast that I think my kids should be ready to do this at age 13.  I did it much younger than that though.

[SKL]

As for young kids crossing the school parking lot - this is a problem because so many parents drive their kids to and from school.  I will never understand why people do that when they have reasonable options.  But then, I always walked to school, and when I was in elementary, my parents both left for work before we left for school, and came back after we did.  Amazingly we all survived and thrived.  I don't remember any cars being in our parking lot on the way to school, though there may have been a few.  Normally everyone either walked or took the school bus.

[Scarlett]

I homeschooled my kid and I didn't let him roam the neighbor at 6. At 10 we lived in town ( still no public transit) and I let him go a block to a school and ride his bike on the trail there.  I didn't let him really hang out anywhere where there weren't parents that I trusted. Not until he was maybe 14 and then I was very cautious. And yet he got his permit to drive at 15 1/2 and his licence at 16 and before he was 16 1/2 he was driving 30 miles to school every morning on dangerous narrow country roads, even more dangerous busy 4 lane hey and even more dangerous a 75 mpg turnpike. By the time he was 17 his boss was sending him into the city to pick up parts or deliver cars or whatever.  Now at 18 I consider capable enough to drive anywhere and do whatever he needs to do even though we have no public transit here and everyone needs a car.

but I do see kids who to me are delaying adult hood in some of those very same ways.  I know one boy Ds's exact age who still doesn't have his license and doesn't work and has graduated high school.  And I know another who is 24 or so who has only in the last year began working regularly....he hasn't been in college....just....not working much.  Another friend of Ds's, a girl, is also 18 and not in school and not working much at all.  She does have a car and got her license at 16....in her case I think her mom is hindering her going to school because she won't hand over tax records..

and dss had to be forced to do his drivers Ed, forced to study for the test, forced to get his license and just today Dh ordered him to go get his unrestricted license today....he has been eligible for it for over a month but it just doesn't seem to be a concern to him. I have no doubt if we had not pushed it he would still not have his license.  Same with work.....he doesn't have a job and at this point...at age 17 Dh is insisting he find SOMETHING.  It really drives me batty. 

[Sherry in OH]

29 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

But even in situations where walkability is possible, it’s not allowed without a parent. It’s absolutely possible for kids to walk to the elementary school here. There are even crosswalks in the lot.  But the school won’t allow kids to walk across the parking lot without an adult.  Even with crosswalks. So even if kids walk, and some do, parents still have to walk with them.  The kids still can’t do it independently.  Of course the issue of kids in the parking lot could be solved with a couple of crossing guards but that won’t happen. 

 

I lived in a suburb advertised as ''walkable" and "neighborhood schools."  The entire neighborhood had sidewalks, they just didn't join to anything outside the neighborhood.  The schools had crossing guards and bicycle racks, one even had a walking schoolbus.  Many parents who lived within blocks of the school opted to drive their children to school.  They were not saving time, the morning and afternoon traffic backups near the school were horrendous.  The high school was across a non-pedestrian friendly highway.  The city built a pedestrian bridge across the highway.  Upon completion of the bridge the school district announced that as the neighborhood's high school students now had safe walking access to the school busing from the neighborhood would cease.  Parents were outraged.

I do think that suburban children are usually more dependent on their parents than city, rural, or small town children.  Part of it is our automobile culture, but more of it is the suburban mindset that children should never be seen in public without an adult.

 

[KathyBC]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I agree there is a problem with prolonged adolescence. But I doubt it is related to lack of public transport.  I have lived rural my entire life and getting a car was just the very normal thing to do ASAP. Some kids were handed a brand new one and some had to work babysitting from age 12 on to save enough to buy a beater at age 16. We paid 3k for my step sons car and his insurance is $60 per month.  We pay that but I don't think the amount is so high he couldn't manage it if he had to.

dh and I are in discussions now though about dss not yet working.  I don't know why he isn't more interested in working.  To me that is a problem.  I see it quite a bit but I also see some teens working hard and happy to be making their own money.  

Car insurance for youths, for even the oldest beater, is at least $200/month in our province.

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, KathyBC said:

Car insurance for youths, for even the oldest beater, is at least $200/month in our province.

Well I don't know how Canada compares to US in other ways.  I mean for instance we are paying huge amounts for health care.  

[SamanthaCarter]

I love that my 11 and 9 year old can walk the half mile to the library, the coffee shop and the farmers market. They can walk down the street to play in the stream, dig in the sand volleyball court or play in the sprinklers at the college campus. People do drive by and worry about them being alone, but the kids know to roll with it. They explain they live nearby and mom knows they are out. Town police and campus security don’t bat an eye. The only thing I really wish for is an expanse of Woods that they are allowed to putter around in. ETA: and more nearby kiddos with the same opportunity.

My kids don’t do much for extracurricular activities so they might be lacking in breath of skills, but I don’t worry about skills of independence. 

[Bluegoat]

44 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

I don’t know. I have 2 brothers both of whom share the same disability. It’s not awful but it does limit them in some ways. (Along the lines of deafness or epilepsy) my youngest brother is amazing with how he has dealt with it. He’s traveled all over the world by himself. He lived in a major metropolitan area by choice so he could be independent. And from that decision he chose to move to a large city in Turkey. Alone. He regularly travels through Europe. I’m so jealous I can’t stand it. I’ve never done the things he’s done despite not sharing that disability. My older brother—a successful professor with his PhD. And an excellent father. Living independently. Divorced but managing in spite of his limitations without a spouse. 

The thing with both of my brothers is that they were raised to do what they needed to do to be independent. Even if it was a little embarrassing. And they both chose urban areas to access assistance for their issues. My grandfather shared this disability and lived his whole life making his own way. I just know that my mom saw her dad push himself out of his comfort zone to make his way even when it was hard and she pushed my brothers to take ownership of themselves and be independent in ways they could be proud of so the inability to drive wasn’t a defining feature.

(This in no way makes me an expert on disability, I realize that many individuals have issues that don’t have easy answers.)

 

 

I'm mainly going by what the disabled community here has said.  They find the inability to get around limits them in many ways, be it being unable to get a bus, or lack of sidewalk clearing in winter, lack of curb cuts, etc.  They end up housebound a lot of the time, they need help to get their mail or groceries, etc.  And on the other end, when the bus fleet began to be switched to very accessible buses, how liberating it was to just be able to plan and go, without making special arrangements. How since they didn't have to depend on the Access--bus which runs by appointment on a first come first serve basis - it became much easier to get to things like appointments, or get a job.

The main thing seems to be the feeling of autonomy.

People can make do, but I think every time you create a problem to be solved, you lose some of them who can't find a way to navigate that barrier. And it makes them feel less capable of managing.

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

We live within city limits, in a city that does not have a reliable bus system, and we are affected by urban sprawl because half of our kids' jobs and activities are in the outlying counties. It's a car culture here. I've made a lof of extra moves to teach my teens how to be independent, in the years leading up to driving age.

One thing I do is to make shuttle runs, if any of the boys are headed to destinations that are at all walkable. They get delivered to the general area, where they will manage their business, walk to the park or library, work on some homework, run errands in that locale...and then I'll go in a few hours and round them all up. So it's a little artificial, compared to the small town, free range way that I grew up, and it's no less driving for me. But they still get to navigate around a city center or small town on their own, and arrive to their activities on their own. It's not like their Mommy drives them to the door and hovers or waits, at everything they do.

For those who feel that their tweens would benefit from this, here are suggestion for how to start: 

1. Practice adulting while you're still there. Model skills such as mailing a package at the post office, requesting ILL books and paying fines at the library, filling out forms at the doctors office, ordering and paying for lunch, walking around noting landmarks, etc. And then make them do everything. "I'll get a table, and you order. Here's the money. Please get a chicken sandwich and iced tea for me, and whatever sandwich and drink you'd like." Or for navigation, "I want to stop at this store. Could you go back to the last store and buy that hat, I changed my mind and now I want it. Meet me at the fountain at the end of the block in ten minutes." Even if you're there because they're only 12 and you drove them, they can buy the museum tickets, shop for their own clothes, just everything.

2. Once you feel that they have some common sense and can talk to adults, pair them off with a sibling or friend. Give them a phone, a map, and some money, and drop them off somewhere safe for a kind of a scavenger hunt. I've used a local very small town for this. Mail a letter, purchase something that will involve decision making, go to the library, get lunch, go to the park and walk a trail, find a place to buy a cold drink, take photos of landmarks. 

When my not-yet-driving 16yo wanted to go to a nearby town's high school frequently, to see his friends' sports activities, concerts, and plays, I dropped him off in town with his bicycle earlier in the day. He took schoolwork to the library, got his supper, and went to the event on his own. When another son was more interested in exploring our city's downtown area, that was scarier, but he was pretty smart and independent, so I dropped him off with his guitar. He combined busking and exploring.

The first time a young person navigates the world on his own, should not be when he first starts driving. Everybody deserves to be from somewhere, and know their local landmarks and resources. In our urban sprawl, non-walkable township, I've had to make a lot of extra moves to force community and routine and independence. But it's been worth it, to have confident and capable young adults.

Note: None of this works if Mom is afraid of people and won't let a young teen out of her sight. We live in a rough area, and it is scary to me, too. But what's far scarier is a kid who will look like a target if we do get separated. He's safer if he is prepared, confident, and able to trust his own instincts. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bluegoat]

20 minutes ago, Sherry in OH said:

 

I lived in a suburb advertised as ''walkable" and "neighborhood schools."  The entire neighborhood had sidewalks, they just didn't join to anything outside the neighborhood.  The schools had crossing guards and bicycle racks, one even had a walking schoolbus.  Many parents who lived within blocks of the school opted to drive their children to school.  They were not saving time, the morning and afternoon traffic backups near the school were horrendous.  The high school was across a non-pedestrian friendly highway.  The city built a pedestrian bridge across the highway.  Upon completion of the bridge the school district announced that as the neighborhood's high school students now had safe walking access to the school busing from the neighborhood would cease.  Parents were outraged.

I do think that suburban children are usually more dependent on their parents than city, rural, or small town children.  Part of it is our automobile culture, but more of it is the suburban mindset that children should never be seen in public without an adult.

 

 

That's my observation too.  Which is why I kind of think the physical setting plays a role.

[Garga]

2 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

There are a billion places in this country where public transportation doesn’t exist.  I moved a lot as a kid but haven’t ever lived anywhere with access to public transportation.  

 

Me, neither.  

2 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

I‘m an adult who’s never used public transportation. 

 

Me neither!  Wait...I did ride the subway into DC twice, but DH figured it out and I just followed blindly behind him.

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

But this requires public transportation to exist. Which is not the case everywhere in the country. In some places, there simply IS no bus.

Yup.  That’s how it is here.

1 hour ago, marbel said:

Regarding chores, yard work, etc.   I think many high school kids are so busy with APs, mandatory public service hours, extracurriculars (needed to look good on college applications, etc), sports (for some, that is the ticket to college) that there is no time for chores.   My kids were homeschooled through high school so we didn't deal with that, but I know a lot of people who do. Now with my kids in college but living at home, I will excuse them from house/yard duties at times because it's more important to me that they do well on their finals/term papers than do dishes. 

However, they know how to do those things, and they understand that when they are on their own, they'll have to deal with all that stuff. 

 

That’s how it is for my son.  I started a thread earlier this school year asking whether or not my son’s schedule was too packed.  Almost everyone agreed it was too packed.  I cut what I could from it, but there’s no way he has time for all sorts of chores and yard work.  (And if you read my thread, you’d all agree.  The kid doesn’t have much down time at all.)

But over the summer, when school is out, I make sure he knows how to do things: basic home maintenance, very basic sewing (just fixing dropped hems or sewing on buttons), regular chores, laundry, how to cook the meals we eat.

—-

When we moved to this area, we could have moved onto property out among the farms.  We could have lived off a tiny two lane road with no sidewalks right by the corn fields.  But DH said he preferred to live in town and the only reason he wanted to live in town was so that we could walk to the businesses if we wanted to.  So, we live in our tiny little town that has sidewalks, in a tiny little house squashed right next to two other tiny little houses.  But my son can walk to his job, and sometimes the boys will walk to the Dollar Store, or I will walk to the library, etc.  We’re still a bit lazy and don’t walk the 20 minutes (each way) to karate.  But that’s more of a time issue.  Forty minutes getting there and back is hard to swallow when the drive is literally a 6 minute round trip.

When we hosted a kid from Spain last summer, he was very unimpressed about how much Americans drive.  He pretty much demanded, “Why do you drive everywhere?  What is wrong with you Americans!?”  But when we talked it out, and looked at Google Maps of his town, they have huge wide lanes along the sides of all the roads for pedestrians—the “sidewalks” are as wide as a full lane for a car and are well marked and maintained.  His town is designed so that you can get to everything easily.  It’s very, very different from how things are here in most towns.

[KathyBC]

29 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Well I don't know how Canada compares to US in other ways.  I mean for instance we are paying huge amounts for health care.  

Oh for sure, there are significant differences in how our govt's spend their tax dollars and in COL expenses for families.

I was thinking car insurance though is more of an apples to apples comparison. Its super high cost in our location is one possible reason we're seeing a decline in that previous benchmark of young people's independence, at least in situations where it is possible to avoid.

[SKL]

We live in a suburb and I send my kids miles away on their bikes when the weather permits.  Walking, there aren't many options, but they have been allowed to walk to the park one mile away (without me) since age 6.  So really, I think it's more of a parent preference thing than a town layout thing.

I have neglected to get them used to the public bus.  This conversation has given me a good idea though.  If they will walk about a mile to the bus stop, I think there may be a bus can take them to an area with various attractions.  They go there on their bikes, but the bus would be more accessible in various kinds of weather.  I need to check the bus schedule and see if this is realistic.

There are many activities that require us to drive, but nobody forced us to join those activities.  I didn't do any of that when I was a kid.  It's a trade-off.  There are things they could be doing at home or in the neighborhood to develop independence.  Cook, clean, garden or do whatever engineering they want to do in the backyard, craft, teach themselves an instrument or foreign language, come up with a local money-making venture / volunteer gig, walk to the park or rec center (a mile up and down hills, but we regularly walked that much as kids), develop a personal training regimen ....  I often think my kids should be spending more time at/near home so they could work on these kinds of things.  No car, bus, etc. needed.

PS I admit that suburban planning was a peeve of mine when my kids were younger and the community was weirder about them being out & about.  I think up to about age 10, it's an issue that there's noplace for young kids to walk to.  But if we're talking about tweens and teens, there are things they can do if only people would let them.

[Farrar]

13 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Running their schedules by me is part of beibg independent and responsible. Dd16 does that. Ds20 does when it is necessary (which is not all the time). 

I am committed to providing transportation. It is part of parenting a young adult. I do not begrudge my children this any more than I begrudged them my time when they were younger  

Both my kids have had responsibilities at home and elsewhere  They meet those responsibilities and make me proud  

 

 

 

I don't see it that way at all. I think we all do various things for our kids, including as they become adults. However, I don't think transportation is one that everyone needs to do, or should have to do. Like, the way you're saying this here is like it's a baseline expectation for parenting young adults. I totally disagree. If it's something that one wants to do, then okay. We all give support in different ways - some parents feed their kids and show love with food, some help them plan, some have the money to finance opportunities, etc. All those things, and driving too, are fine. But I don't think chauffeur duty should be a basic expectation of parenting an 18 yo.

[KathyBC]

1 minute ago, Farrar said:

I don't see it that way at all. I think we all do various things for our kids, including as they become adults. However, I don't think transportation is one that everyone needs to do, or should have to do. Like, the way you're saying this here is like it's a baseline expectation for parenting young adults. I totally disagree. If it's something that one wants to do, then okay. We all give support in different ways - some parents feed their kids and show love with food, some help them plan, some have the money to finance opportunities, etc. All those things, and driving too, are fine. But I don't think chauffeur duty should be a basic expectation of parenting an 18 yo.

Well, at 18 it should be one of those things that's starting to get faded out, at least IMO.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

3 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

I had a similar conversation with a 91 year old bridge partner.  She relishes bridge, as its her day out...but she feels trapped at home, since she no longer has the amenities of a retirement home in Florida.  But...she has forgotten she doesn't need a gym, she can do personal workouts at home. She can skype her friends instead of walk over. She can invite people over for a bag lunch and movie, rather than go to the mall.   Not everything has to be done away from home, in the company of nonfamily members or nonneighbors.

What about people's legitimate social needs? While we may be able to survive never going anywhere and never being in anyone else's physical company, not many people would thrive that way. I would be concerned about an elderly friend who has lost her physical community. I am concerned for homeschooled children who never leave home and are never away from their parents. Most people need to move around a little, and be around other people.

[PeachyDoodle]

There's no getting around out here without a car. Country roads, no sidewalks, speed limit is 55mph. It's a 10 minute drive for us to the elementary and high schools -- middle school is a bit closer. People do bike out here recreationally, but no way would I let my kids ride on our road. Nobody I know uses a bike to actually *go* places. The only public transport available to us is the school bus.

My parents bought me a reliable, but old, used car when I turned 16. My mother couldn't wait for me to learn to drive so I could help cart my younger sisters around. I also took over the family grocery shopping at that time. My mother would give me a blank signed check and a list of specific things she needed, but otherwise I was on my own. She said, "We bought you that car for ME, not for you!" We intend to get a used vehicle for dd in a few years for that same reason. It's just a cost of living for us in the same way that paying for a metro pass is a cost of living for my sister in DC. I don't feel that lack of access to public transport or the un-walkability of our neighborhood made one ounce of difference to my independence, nor do I think it will impact my kids'.

Ironically, the only people I know personally who fit the definition of delayed adolescent aren't young adults, but are in their 30's. I think that has much more to do with personality and overall parenting philosophy than what mode of transportation a person uses.

[Jean in Newcastle]

3 hours ago, regentrude said:

Huh? I don't understand the bolded. By definition, a young person who has to rely on mom for transportation cannot have the same level of independence as a person who can take care of his own transportation needs, as he is dependent on the adult to drive him. 

Of course he is. But indepence isn’t one dimensional. It’s overly simplistic to say that depending on someone else for one thing (transportation) means that someone isn’t an independent adult. 

[Garga]

53 minutes ago, KathyBC said:

Well, at 18 it should be one of those things that's starting to get faded out, at least IMO.

 

13 minutes ago, PeachyDoodle said:

There's no getting around out here without a car. Country roads, no sidewalks, speed limit is 55mph. It's a 10 minute drive for us to the elementary and high schools -- middle school is a bit closer. People do bike out here recreationally, but no way would I let my kids ride on our road. Nobody I know uses a bike to actually *go* places. The only public transport available to us is the school bus.

My parents bought me a reliable, but old, used car when I turned 16. My mother couldn't wait for me to learn to drive so I could help cart my younger sisters around. I also took over the family grocery shopping at that time. My mother would give me a blank signed check and a list of specific things she needed, but otherwise I was on my own. She said, "We bought you that car for ME, not for you!" We intend to get a used vehicle for dd in a few years for that same reason. It's just a cost of living for us in the same way that paying for a metro pass is a cost of living for my sister in DC. 

 

This had always been our plan.  The oldest will be 16 in September.  In 2020 he’ll start college.  I had thought we’d get him a car, but now that college costs aren’t something we have to think about “sometime in the future” but are staring us down in the face right now, I’m just not sure any of us can afford a car for him, and the insurance.  Blech.  I really wanted him to be able to have a car, but I just don’t know if we can, as a family, swing both car and college costs.  I just don’t know.  From what I can tell, you don’t really know how much a college will cost until you get admitted and they send you the financial aid package.  Even the cheap colleges are a lot of money nowadays.  

When I was young I was given the choice: college or a car.  (And colleges weren’t crazy expensive like they are now.). I was young and didn’t understand how serious of a decision this was, so I chose the car and never went to college.

This time around, I think the choice will be the same for my son:  college or car.  Except that this time, the choice will be college.  

We’ll see.  Maybe we’ll find some old car that’ll be cheap enough to afford.  I hope!

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 hours ago, KathyBC said:

Car insurance for youths, for even the oldest beater, is at least $200/month in our province.

Car insurance for youths, for even the oldest beater is at least $200/month in our state.  I do not see putting my husband and I in debt and/or my young adults in debt just so that they can drive to be a good financial decision. 

[SKL]

When my family moved from urban to rural, it was because we loved the wide open spaces, fresh air, slower pace, more hands-on, down-to-earth pastimes ....

Like everything else, it's a trade-off.  Many families feel it's worth it to live in a rural setting.  I don't think anyone moving there expected their kids to have a variety of transportation options.

On the positive side though transportation-wise, nobody ever stole our bikes out there.  Back in the city, I had two bikes stolen within a month because my dumb siblings borrowed them and neglected to lock them up.  And I had a third bike run over by a drunk driver because yet another sibling ticked him off.  Also, driving in the boonies is a lot more relaxing than any type of transport in the city.  ?

[Jean in Newcastle]

My Aspie was doing half of my grocery shopping for me at age 8.  (I was in the store.  And  yes, I drove.)  He was ordering in restaurants for himself.  He was figuring out the tip for us.  He mailed packages at the Post Office.  He rode his bike around the block.  (I told naysayers to stuff it.)  He and his sister were walking to the park.  He paid his library fines.  He started his own quick bread business and in one  year had bought his own computer with his profits.  He was doing his own laundry as well as any other chores we had around the house.  He could mow very flat areas with our power mower (supervised and again - on flat areas only because of safety issues having to do with his physical strength).  When he was older he got his own job at the grocery store and managed his paycheck (putting half of it directly into savings for college).  He walked to his job 90% of the time.  He was cooking breakfast and lunch for himself by then.  If he didn't like what I cooked for dinner, he managed that on his own as well.  He volunteered at the library and walked to that.  Sometimes he biked to taekwando but 90% of the time I drove him because it was dark most of the time and he had some very close calls.  (I consider having an alive young person more important than meeting someone else's standards of what he should be doing for himself.)  But he did not use public transportation because it didn't meet his needs and he did not have a car because it was not financially viable for us.  To say that he was delayed in his independence because of that last sentence is ludicrous. 

Once he was able to actually afford a car, he learned how to drive.  He fixes all of the cars he has bought himself.  As I posted in another post, last summer he bought his own plane ticket to another state.  He flew there, rented his own car, drove through a couple of states, stayed in an air bnb that he booked himself (where his 15 year old sister who flew by herself met him) and used public shuttles when necessary.  No advance instruction was necessary to take that trip.  He has the skills to actually think for himself when necessary. 

In order for him to go to college (which he pays for 100%) he needs access to a car.  The first year I drove him.  It was a choice I made because I could and because being able to help him that way was helping him financially in the long run.  In order for him to work at his job (which he got right out of high school in his chosen field - so not just any old job) he needs access to a car.  Again - that first year I drove him.  (He goes to college in the a.m. and works in the p.m.)  Now he drives himself. 

My beef with this thread is that tying the idea of independence to one arbitrary thing just doesn't make sense.  Life is more multi-dimensional than that.  Being independent has to do with thinking skills that you apply to all sorts of different situations.  How do you learn those thinking skills?  By being allowed to develop them in the circumstances you find yourself without people arbitrarily putting limits or false standards on what you should be doing.  I don't think that every other kid or family should do exactly what my kids did at the ages they did them.  We all have different lives and circumstances and strengths. 

 

[SanDiegoMom]

It is hard to foster independence when there are very few opportunities allowed, not only due to infrastructure (which does limit us here in our suburban exurb) but also for legal reasons. We have an awesome new gym that we are members of a mile and a half away, via a safe bike ride. But kids aren't allowed in without parents until age 16! Really? Kids just want to go to play basketball with their friends there. By that same rational, neighborhoods made a conscious decision not to have basketball courts so an not to attract "unwanted elements".  How often do you think our tennis courts are used by teens? Volunteering opportunities are the same as the gym - 16 and above if you aren't with a parent. Heck, even if my son, who loves baking, wanted to sell his own cookies from his house he is not allowed according to regulations. Only non-perishable items (spice mixes, nut mixes, etc) are allowed. You aren't supposed to set up a lemonade stand without a permit. 

We live in an unfortunate area that is a small bedroom community off the interstate while all their main activities are 30-45 min away, depending on traffic. When I had a teenager in the house without a license yet, it was miserable. Yes, I would have loved to be able to drive her anywhere and drop off and pick up. But I can only be in so many places at one time. 

No sidewalks connecting neighborhoods to the shopping areas. No bike lanes at all. Bus system not servicing neighborhoods. There's really no options. 

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

My Aspie was doing half of my grocery shopping for me at age 8.  (I was in the store.  And  yes, I drove.)  He was ordering in restaurants for himself.  He was figuring out the tip for us.  He mailed packages at the Post Office.  He rode his bike around the block.  (I told naysayers to stuff it.)  He and his sister were walking to the park.  He paid his library fines.  He started his own quick bread business and in one  year had bought his own computer with his profits.  He was doing his own laundry as well as any other chores we had around the house.  He could mow very flat areas with our power mower (supervised and again - on flat areas only because of safety issues having to do with his physical strength).  When he was older he got his own job at the grocery store and managed his paycheck (putting half of it directly into savings for college).  He walked to his job 90% of the time.  He was cooking breakfast and lunch for himself by then.  If he didn't like what I cooked for dinner, he managed that on his own as well.  He volunteered at the library and walked to that.  Sometimes he biked to taekwando but 90% of the time I drove him because it was dark most of the time and he had some very close calls.  (I consider having an alive young person more important than meeting someone else's standards of what he should be doing for himself.)  But he did not use public transportation because it didn't meet his needs and he did not have a car because it was not financially viable for us.  To say that he was delayed in his independence because of that last sentence is ludicrous.  Once he was able to actually afford a car, he learned how to drive.  He fixes all of the cars he has bought himself.  As I posted in another post, last summer he bought his own plane ticket to another state.  He flew there, rented his own car, drove through a couple of states, stayed in an air bnb that he booked himself (where his 15 year old sister who flew by herself met him) and used public shuttles when necessary.  No advance instruction was necessary to take that trip.  He has the skills to actually think for himself when necessary. 

My beef with this thread is that tying the idea of independence to one arbitrary thing just doesn't make sense.  Life is more multi-dimensional than that.  Being independent has to do with thinking skills that you apply to all sorts of different situations.  How do you learn those thinking skills?  By being allowed to develop them in the circumstances you find yourself without people arbitrarily putting limits or false standards on what you should be doing.  I don't think that every other kid or family should do exactly what my kids did at the ages they did them.  We all have different lives and circumstances and strengths. 

 

He sounds amazing Jean and I have always thought you have done a fantastic job with him.

[Jean in Newcastle]

49 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

It is hard to foster independence when there are very few opportunities allowed, not only due to infrastructure (which does limit us here in our suburban exurb) but also for legal reasons. We have an awesome new gym that we are members of a mile and a half away, via a safe bike ride. But kids aren't allowed in without parents until age 16! Really? Kids just want to go to play basketball with their friends there. By that same rational, neighborhoods made a conscious decision not to have basketball courts so an not to attract "unwanted elements".  How often do you think our tennis courts are used by teens? Volunteering opportunities are the same as the gym - 16 and above if you aren't with a parent. Heck, even if my son, who loves baking, wanted to sell his own cookies from his house he is not allowed according to regulations. Only non-perishable items (spice mixes, nut mixes, etc) are allowed. You aren't supposed to set up a lemonade stand without a permit. 

We live in an unfortunate area that is a small bedroom community off the interstate while all their main activities are 30-45 min away, depending on traffic. When I had a teenager in the house without a license yet, it was miserable. Yes, I would have loved to be able to drive her anywhere and drop off and pick up. But I can only be in so many places at one time. 

No sidewalks connecting neighborhoods to the shopping areas. No bike lanes at all. Bus system not servicing neighborhoods. There's really no options. 

We got around the regulations regarding food stands in three ways. 

1.  I subsidized the ingredients. So customers were giving a suggested “donation “. (Subsidizing this was cheaper for me than signing him up for something like Boy Scouts. )

2.  He sold to friends and family.   (He initially sold at the end of our culdesac but after one time he got orders directly phoned to him. ). 

3.  We turned down commercial orders because we did not have a commercial kitchen. Our local grocery store wanted to sell his breads but we said no. 

[Xahm]

I'm very sorry if the way I worded this makes it seem like I think that over reliance on cars is the sole factor in delaying young people's independence or that I think no young people without their own method of transportation can be mature, responsible people.

I'm enjoying the discussion, though, so thank you for overlooking it's flaws and participating anyway.

[SanDiegoMom]

7 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

We got around the regulations regarding food stands in three ways. 

1.  I subsidized the ingredients. So customers were giving a suggested “donation “. (Subsidizing this was cheaper for me than signing him up for something like Boy Scouts. )

2.  He sold to friends and family.   (He initially sold at the end of our culdesac but after one time he got orders directly phoned to him. ). 

3.  We turned down commercial orders because we did not have a commercial kitchen. Our local grocery store wanted to sell his breads but we said no. 

 

Thank you for the ideas! I honestly never thought about the suggested donation - that's a perfect work around.  We will never get to the level of needed to worry about selling it commercially. He just wants to raise money for camps. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

26 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

He sounds amazing Jean and I have always thought you have done a fantastic job with him.

Thanks. He still drives me crazy. He still gets overwhelmed and can have an Aspie meltdown.  He handled all the travel on his trip but I worried (legitimately) about him remembering to eat.  Just to provide a more balanced counterpoint. ?

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

It is hard to foster independence when there are very few opportunities allowed, not only due to infrastructure (which does limit us here in our suburban exurb) but also for legal reasons. We have an awesome new gym that we are members of a mile and a half away, via a safe bike ride. But kids aren't allowed in without parents until age 16! Really? Kids just want to go to play basketball with their friends there. By that same rational, neighborhoods made a conscious decision not to have basketball courts so an not to attract "unwanted elements".  How often do you think our tennis courts are used by teens? Volunteering opportunities are the same as the gym - 16 and above if you aren't with a parent. Heck, even if my son, who loves baking, wanted to sell his own cookies from his house he is not allowed according to regulations. Only non-perishable items (spice mixes, nut mixes, etc) are allowed. You aren't supposed to set up a lemonade stand without a permit. 

We live in an unfortunate area that is a small bedroom community off the interstate while all their main activities are 30-45 min away, depending on traffic. When I had a teenager in the house without a license yet, it was miserable. Yes, I would have loved to be able to drive her anywhere and drop off and pick up. But I can only be in so many places at one time. 

No sidewalks connecting neighborhoods to the shopping areas. No bike lanes at all. Bus system not servicing neighborhoods. There's really no options. 

 

This is like the people in my neighbourhood who didn't want a park bench, because teenagers sit on them and talk!  They also didn't want a trash can because people kept filling it with trash.  (Now they throw their dog poo bags into the shrubbery.)

I will say that overall I think our city has got over this kind of thinking - there are lots of basketball courts, skateboard parks, community gardens, etc.  And they get used a lot.

[marbel]

So, re: transportation:

A young  person may be able to drive, and have a license, but there may simply be not enough cars available in the family for a person to take one wherever they want.  

We are fortunate that we have 1 car per driver right now, but we didn't always have that.  I used to have to do drop off/pick up a weekly social event my son had, because I needed the car. If I was able to be housebound that day, he could have it.  He couldn't always count on someone to give him a ride. 

Insurance where I live is very expensive too, and my husband and I decided not to tie our kids' driving to their ability to pay for it, partly because it is to our advantage to have them able to drive.  But when my daughter gets her license, there is not going to be money for a 4th car and the increased insurance cost.  I'm not willing to have my kids take on more work hours while they are students to pay for it. 

It's just not simple for everyone as buying a beater car and having minimum insurance on it.  

Or using public transit - my daughter is very comfortable taking the train into Philadelphia, and we have a local station that is in walking distance. But stops at that station are rare, so usually I have to drop her off or pick her up at one a couple of miles away. And sometimes the train is not appropriate. She met a friend downtown for a concert once. She took the train early in the day, they goofed around the city and then went to the concert, and I drove in and picked her up after it was over.  I didn't feel comfortable with her walking through Philly at 11pm and then waiting for a train alone (or possibly miss the last train of the night).  Uber or Lyft are too costly. She's pretty independent but that is just too much independence for me. 

[KathyBC]

2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

 

My beef with this thread is that tying the idea of independence to one arbitrary thing just doesn't make sense.  Life is more multi-dimensional than that.  Being independent has to do with thinking skills that you apply to all sorts of different situations.  How do you learn those thinking skills?  By being allowed to develop them in the circumstances you find yourself without people arbitrarily putting limits or false standards on what you should be doing.  I don't think that every other kid or family should do exactly what my kids did at the ages they did them.  We all have different lives and circumstances and strengths. 

 

Oh definitely. But that particular benchmark of independence seems to have moved for ever-increasing numbers of people. As you mentioned earlier, your state has basically pushed it two years forward for most people.

[Scarlett]

56 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Thanks. He still drives me crazy. He still gets overwhelmed and can have an Aspie meltdown.  He handled all the travel on his trip but I worried (legitimately) about him remembering to eat.  Just to provide a more balanced counterpoint. ?

That is exactly like my son. He does forget to eat . 

[Catwoman]

6 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

I don’t know. I have 2 brothers both of whom share the same disability. It’s not awful but it does limit them in some ways. (Along the lines of deafness or epilepsy) my youngest brother is amazing with how he has dealt with it. He’s traveled all over the world by himself. He lived in a major metropolitan area by choice so he could be independent. And from that decision he chose to move to a large city in Turkey. Alone. He regularly travels through Europe. I’m so jealous I can’t stand it. I’ve never done the things he’s done despite not sharing that disability. My older brother—a successful professor with his PhD. And an excellent father. Living independently. Divorced but managing in spite of his limitations without a spouse. 

The thing with both of my brothers is that they were raised to do what they needed to do to be independent. Even if it was a little embarrassing. And they both chose urban areas to access assistance for their issues. My grandfather shared this disability and lived his whole life making his own way. I just know that my mom saw her dad push himself out of his comfort zone to make his way even when it was hard and she pushed my brothers to take ownership of themselves and be independent in ways they could be proud of so the inability to drive wasn’t a defining feature.

(This in no way makes me an expert on disability, I realize that many individuals have issues that don’t have easy answers.)

 

 

I’m sure you intended the part of your post that I bolded as an offhanded comment, but please don’t generalize about the severity of others’ disabilities and the effect those disabilities have on their lives. I have known more than one person with severe epilepsy, and believe me when I tell you that it is both incredibly awful and incredibly limiting. 

You are always such a nice person and I am absolutely certain that you didn’t mean to offend anyone, but I know of at least one forum member who would be very hurt if she read your comment because it seems so dismissive of a very serious condition. 

[HS Mom in NC]

Driving kids everywhere and holding their hands through an job interview/college admissions are two completely different things. 

We have extreme weather here, so walkability/bikeability are not realistic options for about 6 months out of the year due to weather and the roads are packed making it fairly dangerous.   We don't have much in the way of public transportation either and haven't for many generations, so it's not actually relevant to being an independent person.  If mom and dad don't gift you a cheap car, they drop you off at work until you can save up and afford to buy your own.   I lived in the country and walkability was something from another world-of course we couldn't walk to school, stores, activities, etc.  We were too far out and had too many chores to do anyway.  Mom dropped us off at some things now and then, but we got cheap cars as gifts at 18 from our parents and grandparents together. We had our kids save half their allowance for a car from the time they were 5 (we required it) and my dad gave them a couple thousand dollars each at graduation so they could buy a cheap, reliable used car.  The other relatives gave them smaller cash gifts for a car too. They could save for an upgrade and sell the used one when they could afford it. 

[LMD]

Yes to the discussion of autonomy. This is one of those things that I'm finding not so easy as a homeschool parent (kids are always with me) and rural (they can't really get anywhere without me) amongst other, family specific, reasons.

I remember doing things like having to work out my own train/bus route to a job interview, missing my stop, finding my way walking fast through an unfamiliar suburb, turning up hot and frustrated but having to interview well etc. I grew up a lot that day - at age 15. I got the job, and had to catch 2 trains and walk to get there several times a week...

My oldest turns 13 and wants to start spreading her wings soon and I'm looking for opportunities.

 

[LMD]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

 

Which you will find, even without trains that go every 15 min ?

 

? thank you !

I am hoping that as I'm starting to look now, there will be lots of growth within the next 2-3 years.