Why do homeschool parents who publish books do this?

[unsinkable]

Lmao! I could try to guess who that is (and I bet I could get it in under three) but I'll spare myself the drama. ;)

My experience with high school teachers is they sometimes do. My experience with college teachers is they definitely do not.

 

Interesting... there are bullet points in the description of the book on Amazon.

 

I found it odd that one of his bullet points in his response is that the book is free through Kindle Unlimited. Is he not aware that Kindle Unlimited costs money every month? Surely he realizes he gets paid for every Kindle Unlimited book that someone reads. He clearly is trying to sell his book. That bullet point puzzled me, too.

 

Also, Kelli Johnson's comments have been reported for abuse. (And since apparently she is watching this thread, I thought she ought to know ;) )

If the two of you are implying it was me, (that I am Kelli Johnson) it is not me.

 

I have never commented on Amazon.

[ktgrok]

But I'm not talking about changing it myself. I'm talking about pointing out something needs to be changed, that it is unclear or doesn't make sense. Like I wrote before: circling a sentence and saying "What does this mean?"

 

I'd you're changing WHAT they say, that is the WORST thing to do, IMO. It's not editing or proofreading. If someone writes, "I think X because of A, B and C" and I say change A to D, I am changing the content of the paper. It is beyond changing their voice.

 

 

But if you are circling things every line, or most lines, you are way beyond typical editing or proofreading. 

[ktgrok]

If the two of you are implying it was me, (that I am Kelli Johnson) it is not me.

 

I have never commented on Amazon.

 

I still want to believe it is my crazy ex midwife. 

[Murphy101]

My DH works for a Christian publisher and will bring home books they are considering on homeschooling for me to review. Always always, I look for how old the authors oldest homeschooler is. If they proclaim to be an expert on how to keep your sanity or how to keep a peaceful God centered homeschool and their oldest is in 5th grade, I tell him to reconsider publishing it. I tell him that only until your oldest has made it at least through senior year of homeschooling can you even start to talk about peaceful homeschool and keeping your sanity while homeschooling.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ha. I’ve graduated 4 now and still don’t talk about that. Maybe it takes 5? *Dear Sweet Baby Jesus, please let it be true! Amen!*

[unsinkable]

But if you are circling things every line, or most lines, you are way beyond typical editing or proofreading.

To me, "going through line by line" is necessary to edit because you are looking at the paper as a whole. Going line by line, to me, doesn't me you are changing something on every line, or even most lines.

 

I take it to mean a close reading, a "not skimming."

[unsinkable]

I still want to believe it is my crazy ex midwife.

I'm just gonna measure your fundal height...

[ktgrok]

To me, "going through line by line" is necessary to edit because you are looking at the paper as a whole. Going line by line, to me, doesn't me you are changing something on every line, or even most lines.

 

I take it to mean a close reading, a "not skimming."

 

Who skims when proof reading? All editing/proofing requires reading closely. It's the whole point. But they said they go over each line with the child, at least that's what I was getting. As in discussing each line and what works and what doesn't. 

[unsinkable]

Here are our last couple posts, followed by what they wrote.

 

I do not take what they wrote to mean they changed something on every line.

 

Your posts brought up changing something on every line, IIRC.

 

But if you are circling things every line, or most lines, you are way beyond typical editing or proofreading.

To me, "going through line by line" is necessary to edit because you are looking at the paper as a whole. Going line by line, to me, doesn't me you are changing something on every line, or even most lines.

 

I take it to mean a close reading, a "not skimming."

Who skims when proof reading? All editing/proofing requires reading closely. It's the whole point. But they said they go over each line with the child, at least that's what I was getting. As in discussing each line and what works and what doesn't.

"We worked one-on-one with each child. If necessary, we went through each line of each essay to point out what was good, what did not make sense, what was missing, or what could be eliminated. We would then have the child rewrite the paper…."

[Butter]

If the two of you are implying it was me, (that I am Kelli Johnson) it is not me.

 

I have never commented on Amazon.

 

Nope, didn't figure it was you.  I have literally no idea who it is, so I'm going with Katie's ex-midwife.  I just said she was watching this thread because in her comment on Amazon she indicated she is.

[unsinkable]

Nope, didn't figure it was you. I have literally no idea who it is, so I'm going with Katie's ex-midwife. I just said she was watching this thread because in her comment on Amazon she indicated she is.

You quoted me and then commented that Kelli Johnson's comments were reported for abuse, with a winky thing.

[HS Mom in NC]

Come on, Guys!  I have too much to do IRL and now I'm being tempted into Kerfuffle Watch.

[Julie Smith]

"We worked one-on-one with each child. If necessary, we went through each line of each essay to point out what was good, what did not make sense, what was missing, or what could be eliminated. We would then have the child rewrite the paper…."

I know realize I am likely thinking of it differently than others here. I see it going this way: (this is almost what happened today when I was going over something Youngest has written.)

 

This is good. This doesn’t make sense, you wrote, “worn†instead of “wormâ€. You need a comma in this sentence, figure out where it should go. For some reason you wrote the word, “thieves†twice in a row, eliminate one of them.....

 

I think that Youngest for sure, and possibly Eldest would always do best with the above checking. For Youngest it is almost as if the number of careless mistakes doubles when he types it from his handwritten draft. Then he can print it out, find the mistakes, sit down and correct them and skip 25% of them and make an additional 5% more when correcting the ones he does catch. So he has to go through the process many times to get the job done. Also every time he does the above his rate of success of finding mistakes and correcting them properly without causing new ones decreases dramatically ever time he has to do it.

 

But none of the above would change the voice at all. Just catching the mistakes a person makes when they aren’t paying attention, or have read them same thing to many times and ca no longer focus on it. I do agree by college a typical student should have the voice part down and not need help with that.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Julie Smith

[Dmmetler]

At any rate, if they were doing it for English 101 and 102 at the community college, my understanding is they were using those courses as the first year of high school, when their kids were 14/15. Now, I'm not saying I'd proofread/edit my kids' papers line by line in high school (please lord don't let me be doing that) but there are definitely a fair number of, especially homeschooling, parents who do at that age.

 

If we're talking an actual first college course, that would be maybe different.

 

I would never do either, but I'm not particularly surprised or appalled that parents do and would at those ages and for those classes (essentially junior/sr level HS English)

English 101 at a community college IS an actual first college class, and for a STEM major, 101 and 102 are very likely to be the only required English classes. Since the kids go to a state U, those classes were presumably picked because they transfer. Even if a high school class provides such support at a similar age, it doesn’t mean that a college student at the same age should not be held to a higher standard.

 

FWIW, my DD does not let me read her CC papers until after she has gotten them back, graded. There definitely is no line by line editing happening unless it’s in the actual class.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Dmmetler2

[Corraleno]

To me, "going through line by line" is necessary to edit because you are looking at the paper as a whole. Going line by line, to me, doesn't me you are changing something on every line, or even most lines.

 

I take it to mean a close reading, a "not skimming."

 

If parents are putting so much effort into their child's college essays that the parents find the work "involved and tiring" and say "we were always glad when a child finished English 101 and 102," then that parent is doing too much of the work. 

 

I do not edit my own kids' papers that extensively beyond middle school or maybe 9th grade. I cannot even imaging having my son send me copies of every college essay he writes so I can go over every line and tell him what to change. Does anyone here actually do that with their kids' college essays???

[unsinkable]

I know realize I am likely thinking of it differently than others here. I see it going this way: (this is almost what happened today when I was going over something Youngest has written.)

 

This is good. This doesn’t make sense, you wrote, “worn†instead of “wormâ€. You need a comma in this sentence, figure out where it should go. For some reason you wrote the word, “thieves†twice in a row, eliminate one of them.....

 

I think that Youngest for sure, and possibly Eldest would always do best with the above checking.

 

But none of the above would change the voice at all. Just catching the mistakes a person makes when they aren’t paying attention, or have read them same thing to many times and ca no longer focus on it. I do agree by college a typical student should have the voice part down and not need help with that.

Yes, that is what I see (and did), too. As did other writing teachers my kids had in high school and college.

 

I went line by line.

 

That doesn't mean I changed something on each line. Or that something needed to be changed in each line. The writer did the changing.

[Mimm]

 

If parents are putting so much effort into their child's college essays that the parents find the work "involved and tiring" and say "we were always glad when a child finished English 101 and 102," then that parent is doing too much of the work. 

 

I do not edit my own kids' papers that extensively beyond middle school or maybe 9th grade. I cannot even imaging having my son send me copies of every college essay he writes so I can go over every line and tell him what to change. Does anyone here actually do that with their kids' college essays???

 

My middle daughter is not a natural writer. She struggled for years, and many tears were shed over writing. One of the best things I accomplished homeschooling was focusing so heavily on writing and giving her the tools she needed to write. She's a Freshman in public school and last year (her first year in PS) I helped her a little bit with one or two of the essays she wrote. I haven't gone over anything she's written this year. She's making all A's. So no, I can't imagine sending a child who needs that much help writing off to a college English class. A little proof reading, sure, but to the point where it's exhausting for the parents? Noooo.

[Corraleno]

Added my review on Amazon.   <waves at Kelli Johnson  :seeya: >

[Dmmetler]

And also, this annoys me for another reason. It can be extremely difficult to get younger than typical kids into community college programs. The standard for “college ready†for that age group often is way, way more difficult to meet than it is for an 18 yr old. Putting in writing that you edited and supported your kids through CC English to an exhausting level and marketing it as “everyone should do this†just sends a message that these younger than average homeschooled to college kids really aren’t college ready, and is likely to result in more hoops or outright barriers.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Dmmetler2

[Mergath]

Also, there’s a difference between a forum posting and a published book one has made available for sale. Then again, I can be a descriptivist so I suppose that explains my situationally varying expectations in case Kelli takes issue with my lax grammar standards.

All I know is that I'm gonna have to go back and clean up some of the grammar on my past posts. How will they be able to include them in my oeuvre for my Nobel prize if I have sentences ending in prepositions?

[LucyStoner]

I think there is a difference between freshman compositions and getting a thesis ready to be published.

 

When I am proofreading for my son, I read everything carefully and I circle any typographical errors. I give feedback if I think something is especially strong or weak. I ask him what he wants to do to resolve any sections that aren’t up to his abilities. Sometimes that’s him revising, sometimes that’s him turning it in because he’s ready to move on. That’s what I do for a high schooler. I don’t find it exhausting. If I am doing any more than that or am “exhausted†by proofing his papers in college, then I will feel I am doing too much.

[EmseB]

I just have to say that after going through comp 101 with a lot of non-traditional students (as in way over the age of 14), they needed people going through their essays line by line. When I went to school online it was mostly all graded written communication and it was just...yikes. Even in some of my 400 classes, when we did group work a lot of the writing was atrocious. Spelling, grammar, and just...making a point and supporting it.

 

We can all say that college kids should be writing to a certain level or be in remedial classes, but IME, most are not.  Which is, interestingly, one of points SWB makes in some of her talks on writing from when she was teaching a freshman comp class at W&M. A lot of the kids entering her class couldn't write well and they'd been admitted to a kind of selective school. Which is an intro into the why of creating WWE and WWS.

 

And most uni's have a writing center or writing tutors where people get paid to do exactly what those parents were doing. I don't think it's that egregious, to be honest, for people to require this in college or that it was some huge leap the parents were making. Kerfuffle notwithstanding.

Edited March 6, 2018 by EmseB

[LucyStoner]

I just have to say that after going through comp 101 with a lot of non-traditional students (as in way over the age of 14), they needed people going through their essays line by line. When I went to school online it was mostly all graded written communication and it was just...yikes. Even in some of my 400 classes, when we did group work a lot of the writing was atrocious. Spelling, grammar, and just...making a point and supporting it.

 

We can all say that college kids should be writing to a certain level or be in remedial classes, but IME, most are not. Which is, interestingly, one of points SWB makes in some of her talks on writing from when she was teaching a freshman comp class at W&M. A lot of the kids entering her class couldn't write well and they'd been admitted to a kind of selective school. Which is an intro into the why of creating WWE and WWS.

 

And most uni's have a writing center or writing tutors where people get paid to do exactly what those parents were doing. I don't think it's that egregious, to be honest, for people to require this in college or that it was some huge leap the parents were making. Kerfuffle notwithstanding.

I’m glad remedial help is available for those who need it. I wouldn’t write a book about my kids needing remedial level assistance with their basic compositions. There’s scaffolding and then there’s just doing everything for your kids. I get that not everyone thinks these parents crossed the line but I also completely understand why many of us do think they crossed the line. Edited March 6, 2018 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

:lol: :lol:

I’m cracking up over here.

 

I seriously doubt she read his book. She seems like she has an axe to grind. She also sounds like a real joy to have around. :lol: :lol:

She sounds perfectly charming.

 

Mergath should definitely get off the computer and go homeschool her kids. If you hurry, Mergath you can write a book about sending your 6 month old to ASU at age 8! Because why not water college down to elementary school since people like these folks are watering it down to high school?! :P

[nixpix5]

I think all the arguing about whether it was good or not to edit the kids college writing papers is a moot point since they clearly wrote well enough on their own to get through medical school or doctoral programs. So whatever the parents did prepared them to write in graduate school.

[Corraleno]

I just have to say that after going through comp 101 with a lot of non-traditional students (as in way over the age of 14), they needed people going through their essays line by line. When I went to school online it was mostly all graded written communication and it was just...yikes. Even in some of my 400 classes, when we did group work a lot of the writing was atrocious. Spelling, grammar, and just...making a point and supporting it.

 

We can all say that college kids should be writing to a certain level or be in remedial classes, but IME, most are not.  Which is, interestingly, one of points SWB makes in some of her talks on writing from when she was teaching a freshman comp class at W&M. A lot of the kids entering her class couldn't write well and they'd been admitted to a kind of selective school. Which is an intro into the why of creating WWE and WWS.

 

And most uni's have a writing center or writing tutors where people get paid to do exactly what those parents were doing. I don't think it's that egregious, to be honest, for people to require this in college or that it was some huge leap the parents were making. Kerfuffle notwithstanding.

These are obviously bright kids though — kids who could have been writing at a decent college level when they entered college, if they had actually had a high school education, instead of being stuck in college classes as 8th or 9th graders. My son wasn't a great writer at 14 either, but after four years of actual high school he's an excellent writer. Sticking him in college comp classes at 14, while cowriting his papers, would not have proved much of anything.

 

The fact that there may be kids who are less bright, and/or had crappy public school educations, who require the same level of help and remediation in Comp 1010 as these very bright homeschooled kids, is not much of a selling point for their homeschooling methods, IMO.

[LucyStoner]

As someone who went to cheap state schools as a matter of economic necessity (I was a smidge too old for all these debt free guarantees now available from schools I was actually accepted to and I had factors tying me to my location that I didn’t fully grasp when I foolishly only applied to private out of state schools), I’ve long had reservations about if such schools are less challenging because high schools are graduating students with remedial skills or colleges are accepting students (through dual enrollment and early college) who are in fact, socially and academically, high school students. Either way, it didn’t serve me, and those like me who were similarly ready for college but attending community college and state schools on par with ASU, very well.

Edited March 6, 2018 by LucyStoner

[Teachaheart]

English 101 and 102 professor here. When a student enters English 101 at my institution, that student is expected to be able to compose a basic essay with complete sentences, proper grammar and punctuation, and strong idea development. Our curriculum does not address how to write a sentence or how to compose a paragraph. It also does not address basic grammar or punctuation. Students who do not meet the skill requirements for English 101 are placed in remedial courses that must be passed with a C or better before they can take EN101. Students who need line-by-line guided proofreading and editing, barring a learning disability for which paperwork has been filed with student disability services, are simply not ready for English 101 regardless of how old they are. 

 

While I am always happy to meet with my students during office hours and make a point to meet more informally with each student during class, I do not do any line-by-line editing. When I hold writing group conferences, I point out the most common issues I see in the group's papers and teach impromptu mini lessons as needed or as requested by students. I also give feedback to each student in the group based on the most pressing issues and the things they are doing particularly well.

 

I also require my students to meet with the tutors in the writing lab. The tutors are trained specifically not to do line-by-line editing. They point out patterns of error and discuss with students how to do things like make a stronger thesis statement, organize their ideas, and cite sources properly.

 

There are always students who are misplaced. In fact, I have a few students in EN102 this semester who, based on the research essays I'm in the middle of grading, should never have passed EN101, two in particular who should not have been placed in EN101 last semester. Students like these are part of an ongoing conversation about how to place students properly and how to ensure consistent grading among the faculty in a department where we often have 80-100 instructors teaching writing classes in one semester.

[maize]

These are obviously bright kids though — kids who could have been writing at a decent college level when they entered college, if they had actually had a high school education, instead of being stuck in college classes as 8th or 9th graders. My son wasn't a great writer at 14 either, but after four years of actual high school he's an excellent writer. Sticking him in college comp classes at 14, while cowriting his papers, would not have proved much of anything.

 

The fact that there may be kids who are less bright, and/or had crappy public school educations, who require the same level of help and remediation in Comp 1010 as these very bright homeschooled kids, is not much of a selling point for their homeschooling methods, IMO.

To be fair we don't know that the kids didn't write well on their own.

 

It's entirely possible they would have done just fine in their classes with no parental help.

 

It's even possible they wrote better than the parents and parental suggestions made their writing worse ;)

 

I rather liked the book because I like seeing what different families do.

 

I think some folks were a lot more irritated than I was by the self congratulatory element. The book would certainly have been better without it.

 

I don't feel the parents deserve condemnation.

 

I haven't yet got around to finishing the book so I guess that's me agreeing with the dry and boring bit. But mom and dad are engineers, not English majors ;)

 

I'm curious though...when a college kid struggles with math, people are quick to advise extra tutoring. Is writing really so different?

 

I dunno, I wouldn't recommend this as a homeschool how to but I really do like hearing what different families have done.

Edited March 6, 2018 by maize

[Corraleno]

I'm curious though...when a college kid struggles with math, people are quick to advise extra tutoring. Is writing really so different?

In college, math grades are generally based on quizzes, though, so the purpose of tutoring is to make sure the student understands the material well enough to pass the tests without outside help. If a college student's math grade was based entirely on homework assignments, and the student's parent walked him though every step of every problem, making sure everything was correct before turning it in for a grade, then I would feel the same way. I doubt that the professor who was grading those essays had any idea how much their parents had "contributed" to their grades.

[ktgrok]

 

I'm curious though...when a college kid struggles with math, people are quick to advise extra tutoring. Is writing really so different?

 

I dunno, I wouldn't recommend this as a homeschool how to but I really do like hearing what different families have done.

 

If the kid is struggling maybe a book shouldn't be written about how great they are doing :)

 

But also, you wouldn't have a tutor help you on a math TEST, just on the homework, which is generally not graded. Not the same as having a tutor/parent help you rewrite a paper being turned in for a grade. 

[LucyStoner]

I just took apart a math test a math tutoring student of mine didn’t do very well on. We’ve been focusing on fractions and the test was on an entirely different set of skills. I am writing a work plan around the types of errors and problems with which she struggled on the test. When her next test comes though, I’m not sitting with her reworking each problem before it’s graded. That’s how it has been for all of my math tutoring over a 20 year period. They are preparing for the in class work.

 

I’m all for students using the writing center and getting tutoring if needed in English or Writing. IME though, the writing center is NOT rewriting things.

Edited March 6, 2018 by LucyStoner

[HS Mom in NC]

 

I'm curious though...when a college kid struggles with math, people are quick to advise extra tutoring. Is writing really so different?

 

 

 

The parents aren't writing tutors.

 

My kids took the placement test like all the other students at that cc.  They would've simply been placed in the appropriate class (including a remedial class) based on those test results and the teacher would have addressed their needs.  There is also tons of tutoring available on campus for struggling students in all subjects.

 

Based on what I'm reading, they weren't helping with a problem here and there.  It was continual involvement in each assignment.  If that's an accurate reflection of what was going on, then it was a case of severe helicopter parenting and ill prepared kids.

 

There are sooooooo many underage students there. Some transfer from a public school and dual enroll and some are homeschoolers. The have a guidance counselor just for underage kids because of the volume.  I can't throw a stick a large local homeschooling group without hitting a family whose kids have attended there underage. I meet plenty of ps parents whose kids have either transferred or are doing the same thing in AP class form at their local school.

 

It's like writing a book about how to get your kid into AP classes in high school by listing all the classes they took K-10.  Oh, and most public high schools here have so many kids in AP classes who immediately transfer as sophomores at ASU, UofA, and NAU most parents would roll their eyes at such a book.  Now you can attend those high school graduations and it will be listed by their names that they're getting their AA along with their diploma.  I've sat through a couple of those graduations.

 

[Dmmetler]

To be fair we don't know that the kids didn't write well on their own.

 

It's entirely possible they would have done just fine in their classes with no parental help.

 

It's even possible they wrote better than the parents and parental suggestions made their writing worse ;)

 

I rather liked the book because I like seeing what different families do.

 

I think some folks were a lot more irritated than I was by the self congratulatory element. The book would certainly have been better without it.

 

I don't feel the parents deserve condemnation.

 

I haven't yet got around to finishing the book so I guess that's me agreeing with the dry and boring bit. But mom and dad are engineers, not English majors ;)

 

I'm curious though...when a college kid struggles with math, people are quick to advise extra tutoring. Is writing really so different?

 

I dunno, I wouldn't recommend this as a homeschool how to but I really do like hearing what different families have done.

IMHO, a high school age kid who needs tutoring in math shouldn’t be in college math classes, either. They should be in high school math classes.

 

One of the standard requirements for grade acceleration is that the student should be in the top of the receiving grade. The greater the jump, the more the challenge is going to come less from academics and more from executive functioning and social changes-and they shouldn’t be in that setting until they can handle that, too.

[KungFuPanda]

Y'all have me a bit nervous to list more books in this thread. The claws seem out today. :)

 

But, for ME, my top homeschool specific books that have influenced me and how we choose to school (for better or for worse) and are very well written would include:

 

1. Mere Motherhood by Cindy Rollins

2. Consider This by Karen Glass

3. Homeschooling with a Meek and Quiet Spirit by Terri Maxwell

4. How Children Learn by John Holt

5. The Well Trained Mind by SWB

 

I would consider these runners-up:

 

6. Better Late Than Early by Dorothy and Raymond Moore

7. Consider This by Susan Schaffer McCauley *

8. Teaching From Rest by Sarah MacKenzie**

9. Know and Tell by Karen Glass is probably going to make the list. I haven't finished it yet so can't say for sure, but it's really good and really practical.

 

I have another sort of inspirational book top 10 list with things like Beauty in the Word by Stratford Caldecott on it, but I don't count it as a "homeschooling book" list because those type of books are more inspirational than practical and are written from a completely different place imo. My top 5 list is practical.

 

*I know many people that revere this book- like have a light shining down from Heaven type of reverence- however, I listened to it on Audible and never quite got past being irritated with the narrator's voice, so it didn't make top 5 although I agreed with the majority of the book.

 

**she gets points deducted from having produced this book while all children were still pre-high school age, although in all fairness I think SWB was in the same boat with TWTM 1st edition, BUT, SWB was homeschooled, so I give exception there. AND I own the 3rd and 4th editions of TWTM and her kids were obviously older by those publication times and I know things were changed between versions.

I only own the original edition of TWTM, but to me it read like Jesse was the author and Susan was the student. I wouldn’t deduct experience points.

[J-rap]

Maybe I'm just not getting it, but I didn't think the author's comments were hostile.  To me, they were just simple points trying to defend his book and address comments that to him seemed untrue.  I can understand doing that if this is a small business where so much rides on the comments.  I haven't read the book and maybe it really is bad and boring with poor writing and poor advice, and honest critiques are always helpful.  But is all the meanness necessary?

 

 

 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

The other major issue I have with what people say the motivated the authors, was that they selected engineering/STEM classes so that the children wouldn't be exposed much to a different worldview than the one at home. This is another thing I talk to parents about who are considering cc for minors. It's not that unusual to hear them asking about which professors are tree huggers and liberals in large homeschooling groups with parents who sent minors there.

 Cc is a secular adult education environment.  If your kids need to be sheltered from a humanistic point of view in the humanities classes, then don't send them to a secular school.  There are private colleges out there with views different than secular humanism.  Once you decide to send the kids into the wide world, they're going to need to be able to hear those other points of view. If they're not ready for it, then they're not ready for it.  You shouldn't try to micromanage it by determining their major for them because sheltering students is contrary to the idea of an adult education environment.

Also, my husband is a programmer who owns a business as a consultant to tech companies.  Not everyone is suited to that type of work-even some people who earned applicable engineering degrees in those fields.  My husband gets paid, among other things, to advise companies on which weak leaks need firing because they're not suited to it.  He's the Grim Reaper. Before you get upset at that, consider that those poor fit employees can literally cost companies hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars when they can't get products launched on time due to their crappy code that doesn't work. If those kids don't happen to be suited to engineering, their careers could suffer.One guy my husband recommended firing is still out of work after a couple of years based on his Linked In info. He cost his company many hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years.  In that time the company had gone from 1st in their industry to 4th and had to hire my husband to figure out where the problems were. That guy and others were part of it, and so were other things.

Another employee who was painfully incompetent (but degreed) was fired on my husband's advice after working for a full year.  My husband scrapped that guy's crappy, bug-ridden, broken code that had stalled everyone else working on the project. He rewrote all of it in 3 weeks.  It's never had a single error message.  Think of how much money the company wasted on that employee for a year. Meanwhile their competitors were developing products that worked.

[Tsuga]

I guess by nature we're all control freaks or something.  :lol:  But seriously, if any of you are thinking of writing a book about homeschooling and feel the urge to respond to each and every negative review, DON'T DO IT. Seriously. It makes you look petty and just a bit unhinged. The like buttons are there on Amazon and Goodreads for a reason, and if other reviewers think a review is without merit, it'll eventually get pushed to the bottom of the page.

 

For some reason it cracks me up that it's the homeschool parents who cannot, under any circumstances, let it go. One dad-author actually emailed an enraged freaking tome to my personal email account and demanded that I detail my educational philosophy for him so he could explain why it wrongly colored my opinion of his book. No, dude. Just no.

 

Parenting books in general are awful for this reason. Like, where do people get the gall?

 

There may be a control-freak element to it, or rather, let's say anxious or protective and perfectionist enough to put in all the work not to send kids to school. In themselves, in moderation, these aren't all bad qualities.

 

Add in the healthy dose of self-aggrandization required to write a book about what an awesome parent / educator you are. Kind of a bad quality, but could be applied well in marketing or something.

 

Finally, slap on the idea of writing a nonfiction book about your own living family members, which in my opinion takes a whole lot of gall.

 

Put them together and it's not someone I'd want to criticize to their face, if you know what I mean.

[LucyStoner]

Maybe I'm just not getting it, but I didn't think the author's comments were hostile.  To me, they were just simple points trying to defend his book and address comments that to him seemed untrue.  I can understand doing that if this is a small business where so much rides on the comments.  I haven't read the book and maybe it really is bad and boring with poor writing and poor advice, and honest critiques are always helpful.  But is all the meanness necessary?

 

Everyone draws the line between honest critiques and meanness differently though.  Personally, I don't see anything especially mean about Mergath's review.  And the truth is, even if you get a very negative review or comment, mean or otherwise, it's just wiser to not engage.  I am much less likely to buy books or eat at a restaurant where the author or owner replies to their negative reviews defensively or makes a habit of replying to all their reviews.  

 

All of my friends who are writers (and I have a number of friends who are published authors with big publishers or editors of household name news organizations) seem to never reply to negative reviews and it's pretty common for news writers to not read the comments.  

Edited March 6, 2018 by LucyStoner

[Guest]

We all know long-haul homeschoolers are control freaks - witness the last time we polled for Meyers-Briggs Personality Types and were skewed heavily to INTJ.

[ktgrok]

Maybe I'm just not getting it, but I didn't think the author's comments were hostile.  To me, they were just simple points trying to defend his book and address comments that to him seemed untrue.  I can understand doing that if this is a small business where so much rides on the comments.  I haven't read the book and maybe it really is bad and boring with poor writing and poor advice, and honest critiques are always helpful.  But is all the meanness necessary?

 

In the writing world you NEVER EVER EVER respond to reviews. EVER. It isn't done. It's considered nearly stalking. It is totally inappropriate on every level. 

 

That said, I think that Kelli Johnson's post was WAY more inappropriate. 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by ktgrok

[Dmmetler]

The other major issue I have with what people say the motivated the authors, was that they selected engineering/STEM classes so that the children wouldn't be exposed much to a different worldview than the one at home. This is another thing I talk to parents about who are considering cc for minors. It's not that unusual to hear them asking about which professors are tree huggers and liberals in large homeschooling groups with parents who sent minors there.

 

Cc is a secular adult education environment. If your kids need to be sheltered from a humanistic point of view in the humanities classes, then don't send them to a secular school. There are private colleges out there with views different than secular humanism. Once you decide to send the kids into the wide world, they're going to need to be able to hear those other points of view. If they're not ready for it, then they're not ready for it. You shouldn't try to micromanage it by determining their major for them because sheltering students is contrary to the idea of an adult education environment..

Not just that, but CC IS PS. If you are homeschooling to avoid X in PS, guess what, you just dropped your kid headlong into it, in a setting with many fewer rules and restrictions because everyone is assumed to be an adult. You give up even more control than you would at your local public high school. Sending your child to CC and then trying to micromanage is not only contrary to the idea of the college, but ultimately impossible. I’ve said this on threads before when it’s come up. If you like homeschooling, you probably won’t like having a kid at CC early much. In many respects, it’s the worst of both worlds. (And is one major reason why I’m doing a lot more tutoring and support-because I DO like homeschooling and teaching, and what DD needs from me now is a credit card, to be an Uber driver, and a listening ear). Edited March 6, 2018 by Dmmetler2

[elegantlion]

As far as the editing goes, I see it like this. 1. okay, edit your kids paper fine, but...2. at the college level if I edit my kid's paper, he/she must be able to do the corrections themselves or know where to find the information. If I am editing and then having to provide instruction just not reminders about an already existing base of knowledge, then said child is not ready for COLLEGE level writing instruction. 

[kiana]

As far as the editing goes, I see it like this. 1. okay, edit your kids paper fine, but...2. at the college level if I edit my kid's paper, he/she must be able to do the corrections themselves or know where to find the information. If I am editing and then having to provide instruction just not reminders about an already existing base of knowledge, then said child is not ready for COLLEGE level writing instruction. 

 

I agree with this (and other similar posts that I'm not going to go back and find) and will add that it seems especially bad when the goal is to make sure that your child never has to take another English class by ticking off the requirements as quickly as possible. 

[Bluegoat]

I have to say, it seems to me that they really buggered their kids college experience, as far as making sure it didn't and couldn't function in the way it is meant to.  As far as I can see it's because they don't really have any respect for the role of the institution beyond getting a job.  I say this as someone who has not beef with getting jobs skills without looking for higher education - but they really had no clue if the children would want or benefit from higher education.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Not just that, but CC IS PS. If you are homeschooling to avoid X in PS, guess what, you just dropped your kid headlong into it, in a setting with many fewer rules and restrictions because everyone is assumed to be an adult. You give up even more control than you would at your local public high school. Sending your child to CC and then trying to micromanage is not only contrary to the idea of the college, but ultimately impossible. I’ve said this on threads before when it’s come up. If you like homeschooling, you probably won’t like having a kid at CC early much. In many respects, it’s the worst of both worlds. (And is one major reason why I’m doing a lot more tutoring and support-because I DO like homeschooling and teaching, and what DD needs from me now is a credit card, to be an Uber driver, and a listening ear).

 

Oh gee...I do NOT want to micromanage my kid's CC courses.  I do like homeschooling, but it's hard to do it all.  So I like it for that!

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm a control freak.  LOL

 

 

[EmseB]

I have to say, it seems to me that they really buggered their kids college experience, as far as making sure it didn't and couldn't function in the way it is meant to. As far as I can see it's because they don't really have any respect for the role of the institution beyond getting a job. I say this as someone who has not beef with getting jobs skills without looking for higher education - but they really had no clue if the children would want or benefit from higher education.

I would guess this is the case for about 95% of people going to college today. A college degree is a piece of paper that signals employability, and that's how most people look at going to college today (in the US).

[Guest]

Hey hey hey! I’m not a control freak, I just like things my way and don’t do well with authority or overemotional, non-punctual bubble heads.

 

 

:lol:

Hey, I score as a perfect toss-up between INTJ and INFJ, so I know that of which I speak. I’m a proud idealist/perfectionist! The world needs people with high standards or else we would all still be communicating through cups connected by string. 😋

[eternalsummer]

I have to say, it seems to me that they really buggered their kids college experience, as far as making sure it didn't and couldn't function in the way it is meant to.  As far as I can see it's because they don't really have any respect for the role of the institution beyond getting a job.  I say this as someone who has not beef with getting jobs skills without looking for higher education - but they really had no clue if the children would want or benefit from higher education.

 

 

This I can agree with - it seems like they found the main purpose of a college education to be getting a job.

 

But I can see where they are coming from. The vast majority (Vaaaaaast majority) of professors, both in private and public universities, lean heavily left in their sociopolitical beliefs.  It's not a secret.  If your options were to send your kids to receive higher education from people who are 95% conservatives, and many of them very conservative - to the point that most of your college options look like Bob Jones University - you might say to yourself, well, I don't want to send my kids to be indoctrinated at Bob Jones University, but being without a college education in the US puts you at a serious financial disadvantage, so I'll find a way to send them to college for job training in disciplines that are more neutral by design (that is to say, STEM).   

 

I don't think many liberals or leftists or whatever (or many people who are fairly centrist, or even moderately conservative) stop to consider what the college landscape looks like to someone who is very conservative (not that I know whether this book's author is or isn't).  To us, it looks like it would look like to you if the vast majority of schools were clones of either Liberty, BJU, Hillsdale, or maybe the service academies - and if those were significantly more conservative in actual campus culture than they are now.  You would see the value of a college education differently if those were, largely speaking, your only choices.

[unsinkable]

I have to say, it seems to me that they really buggered their kids college experience, as far as making sure it didn't and couldn't function in the way it is meant to. As far as I can see it's because they don't really have any respect for the role of the institution beyond getting a job. I say this as someone who has not beef with getting jobs skills without looking for higher education - but they really had no clue if the children would want or benefit from higher education.

I would guess this is the case for about 95% of people going to college today. A college degree is a piece of paper that signals employability, and that's how most people look at going to college today (in the US).

Yes, I agree esp w/ bluegoat's last line...did the kids WANT a college education, even if they (the kids, any or all) simply wanted "the piece of paper."

 

It seems like the kids were on the train whEther they wanted it or not.