Why do homeschool parents who publish books do this?

[Bluegoat]

Self congratulation is admittedly annoying.

 

I guess I'm thinking that every path has an opportunity cost. Sometimes we are not aware of the cost. Sometimes we are aware and choose to accept it.

 

Those kids lost some opportunities; they also gained some--including the opportunity to get good graduate education at a relatively young age.

 

I will say that years of schooling also has an opportunity cost; the number of years some paths would have taken post high school played a significant part in my choice not to pursue them. For young people looking to start and support a family--maybe even a large family--that is not an inconsequential consideration and getting a jump start on some of the longer paths does have advantages.

 

Yeah, I know what you are saying and actually I am generally fine with education that, for example, prepares young people for trades starting at younger ages.  More than fine actually, I think it's important and undervalued, and often not done for really bad reasons.

 

I think maybe the difference is - in a system where that kind of training happens, there are also streams for those who want to go into professions, or academia, or business.  Usually there are also way to transfer, but even without considering that, there is a recognition that there are different kinds of people and many valuable and necessary functions in society.  And also that even for those who choose one path, if they can and want to, there is value in learning to some depth in other areas.

 

It seems like the view of the parents here was just really narrow, and constrained the kids - the valuable social functions are narrow, and the understanding of different kinds of knowledge, and mostly it seems the respect for the kids as individuals with their own interests and talents and callings.  And because they were so young when they started college they weren't really even in a position to pull against it or have started to form their own thinking about it.

 

There is something about that STEM only, engineering/medicine is the only worthwhile path that I find incredibly parochial, and I'm not convinced anyone who has bought into it should be in charge of anyones education, or should be writing books about it.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Bluegoat

[maize]

Yeah, I know what you are saying and actually I am generally fine with education that, for example, prepares young people for trades starting at younger ages. More than fine actually, I think it's important and undervalued, and often not done for really bad reasons.

 

I think maybe the difference is - in a system where that kind of training happens, there are also streams for those who want to go into professions, or academia, or business. Usually there are also way to transfer, but even without considering that, there is a recognition that there are different kinds of people and many valuable and necessary functions in society. And also that even for those who choose one path, if they can and want to, there is value in learning to some depth in other areas.

 

It seems like the view of the parents here was just really narrow, and constrained the kids - the valuable social functions are narrow, and the understanding of different kinds of knowledge, and mostly it seems the respect for the kids as individuals with their own interests and talents and callings. And because they were so young when they started college they weren't really even in a position to pull against it or have started to form their own thinking about it.

 

There is something about that STEM only, engineering/medicine is the only worthwhile path that I find incredibly parochial, and I'm not convinced anyone who has bought into it should be in charge of anyones education, or should be writing books about it.

I respect your point of view and agree with it to some extent--in the sense that I don't think such a narrow emphasis is ideal.

 

But I also don't think ideal is a useful measure of "good".

 

The homeschool community overall underserves its students when it comes to math. Available data--from states that require/report standardized tests and locally from research I did as part of my MEd involving students enrolled in popular charter school programs (not k12 style charters, these are the kind that are traditional homeschooling with financial support) show home educated kids outperforming public schooled peers in language arts and underperforming in math.

 

There are many, many home educators failing out kids in math and science education--making a great many future paths difficult for them to access.

 

Having an occasional voice out there providing an example of STEM emphasis homeschool isn't a bad thing.

 

I'm thinking of the saying "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good"; it's ok for a family to recount their approach without that approach being perfect.

 

If there are people out there who read only this book and base their entire education plans for their children on it and it isn't a good for for those children then yeah that could be problematic. Do people do that? Maybe a few balanced reviews of the book would help people avoid looking to it as a homeschool bible.

 

Personally I can't imagine looking exclusively to any single source as a guide to educating my children. I'm happy to have lots of sources, lots of accounts of different ways of approaching things, and a broad idea of what is possible. I'm happy for any parent who has been in the trenches of educating kids and come out the other side to tell their story, I'm ok with those stories having flaws.

 

I also think discussing the flaws is fine, it just felt like this thread took on a tone of contempt and condemnation disproportionate to the actual flaws.

Edited March 7, 2018 by maize

[snowbeltmom]

(snip)

 

It seems like the view of the parents here was just really narrow, and constrained the kids - the valuable social functions are narrow, and the understanding of different kinds of knowledge, and mostly it seems the respect for the kids as individuals with their own interests and talents and callings.  And because they were so young when they started college they weren't really even in a position to pull against it or have started to form their own thinking about it.

 

There is something about that STEM only, engineering/medicine is the only worthwhile path that I find incredibly parochial, and I'm not convinced anyone who has bought into it should be in charge of anyones education, or should be writing books about it.

I think there are a lot of assumptions being made in this thread. I don't think it can be said that the parents constrained their kids. It is certainly possible that all of their children gravitated towards math and science. That is certainly the case with my kids, and their intereests were very apparant before they hit high school.

 

All of us have differing opinions about how our kids should be educated. That is one of the many benefits of homeschooling - we get to choose what is right for our kids.

[Mimm]

And...I never took a math class past what those kids would have mastered by age 14. Never took any at all in college.

 

Can you please explain to me why this family is meeting condemnation for not studying English past that level?

 

They went way past where most people do in Math.

 

They also went well past the level of training most kids get in music.

 

The kids went on to do interesting things including extended time overseas and graduate degrees from excellent schools.

 

I find the condemnation of their handling of English studies in this thread very odd.

 

I get that the tone of the book could be a turn off but some people seem to be reacting with an intensity of criticism that seems better suited in my mind to folks who starve their kids or fail to educate them at all.

 

The lack of choice involved bothers me more than anything else. Also, as someone who loves writing and literature, I find it kinda sad to shortchange the kids in those areas, just because STEM degrees are more lucrative.

 

To be fair, I didn't read the book myself. I'm just going off what other people have said. And as I said up thread, it seems to be working for them, so who am I to say?

 

Can anyone tell me if they treated their daughters' educations as they did their sons'?

 

Edited for pre-coffee typos. :)

Edited March 7, 2018 by Mimm

[nixpix5]

I respect your point of view and agree with it to some extent--in the sense that I don't think such a narrow emphasis is ideal.

 

But I also don't think ideal is a useful measure of "good".

 

The homeschool community overall underserved it's students when it comes to math. Available data--from states that require/report standardized tests and locally from research I did as part of my MEd involving students enrolled in popular charter school programs (not k12 style charters, these are the kind that are traditional homeschooling with financial support) show home educated kids outperforming public schooled peers in language arts and underperforming in math.

 

There are many, many home educators failing out kids in math and science education--making a great many future paths difficult for them to access.

 

Having an occasional voice out there providing an example of STEM emphasis homeschool isn't a bad thing.

 

I'm thinking of the saying "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good"; it's ok for a family to recount their approach without that approach being perfect.

 

If there are people out there who read only this book and base their entire education plans for their children on it and it isn't a good for for those children then yeah that could be problematic. Do people do that? Maybe a few balanced reviews of the book would help people avoid looking to it as a homeschool bible.

 

Personally I can't imagine looking exclusively to any single source as a guide to educating my children. I'm happy to have lots of sources, lots of accounts of different ways of approaching things, and a broad idea of what is possible. I'm happy for any parent who has been in the trenches of educating kids and come out the other side to tell their story, I'm ok with those stories having flaws.

 

I also think discussing the flaws is fine, it just felt like this thread took on a tone of contempt and condemnation disproportionate to the actual flaws.

I agree with this.

 

The other piece for me is that the parents were treating these 4 years as high school equivalency. Let's not forget that high school students have very little control over what they take to fill diploma requirements. Whether 4 years in high school or 4 years in college the control looks the same to me because 14 year olds aren't ready to run their lives yet based on our social understanding of what makes an adult.

 

In college there tends to be more choice about what classes one takes to fill all of the general requirements. They would still have to check humanities boxes, social sciences and so forth.

 

We could formulate an argument about them not being with same aged peers but from where I sit having spent a ton of time with teens I call that a win. All of us who homeschool on through the teen years are met with the same challenge of juggling academics with finding peer groups. I am sure they were no different.

 

I guess I still don't see the issue whether a kid comes out of high school with a bachelor's degree with a stem focus but has still met all of the same necessary breath requirements everyone has to (history, philosophy, art,English....) or someone comes out with a high school diploma with no usability but has met the same breath requirements at a less rigorous level. Both of those two people are still 18 yo, still adults and still have the power to set their future. One can choose to go to grad school or professional school in whatever they would like and the other can go to school to start their bachelor's.

 

My best friend has a chemical engineering degree and stepped right into a master's program for speech. A guy who was in my cohort in neurobiology as an undergrad stepped right into a master's program in music. In both cases they had a couple of pre requisite courses to do but nothing that blocked their path. Now it definitely does not work in the reverse. If you get a liberal arts degree and then want to be a microbiologist for example, you will find yourself back as an undergrad filling a ton of science and math requirements.

 

These people chose to continue on their path into graduate school and professional school. They could have switched course and chose not to. It wasn't because they couldn't so they must enjoy their path.

 

For every kid that likes their education another will dislike it. Across this board, regardless of the way we homeschool or think we know what is right, some of us will have kids that grow up and say they wish we did things differently. That is just human personality differences. We can never get too cozy or smug about what is ideal or right.

 

I will say again, I don't at all follow this philosophy but it clearly worked for this family in spades. They produced highly capable people and placed them into positions in our country that puts them in positions of leadership and innovation. I say good for them!

[Mergath]

Well if we are going off writing abilities for college readiness we would have to throw out a huge swath of typical age college students. Many enter college who are not ready for writing 101. Most community colleges do entry testing and place a student lower if need be. A parent cannot take that test for their student so if a student places in 101 then so be it.

 

They are successful and productive. I say that's a win. He does say right out of the gate that his methods aren't for everyone. I think his tone in writing is what I call "the engineer/scientist" tone. I have to be careful not to fall into it myself. We are taught in our doctoral programs to write a specific way and it is with a level of authority that sounds condescending. It becomes second nature. Have you read any scientific journals lately? Only those of us in the field mind them exciting. Everyone else waits for the cliff notes. They are dry. He may not even be aware of it. I have 5 kids 6-25yo and I am a super snuggly mama and I don't pressure my kids. Yet I think sometimes I come across harsh in the way I communicate due to my days being brainwashed in the sciences :) see...I add smilies so I don't offend people

 

There method is not for me, but there is a danger in assuming ill intent in someone's methods because they differ from us. Your own children are so young and your not in the trenches of the teen years. I have been in those trenches and I sit in awe that they successfully got all of those kids through it successfully. It isn't for the faint of heart.

 

I commend their focus on math and wish more people put focus in math and sciences. We have a plethora of people making decisions in this country who do not truly understand science or how it is done or what it truly shows. They themselves haven't really had adequate training. People often giggle when they say "oh I was terrible in math"...or "I was terrible in science" and that seems to be accepted in our culture. Being illiterate or a poor written communicator is met with less patience.That floors me.

 

I love the liberal arts but I think we need to hold math and science with the same esteem. Nobody bats an eye to a Charlotte Mason education rich in literature. As parents we all are making judgment calls and choices for our kids.

 

Now, him responding to your review is a bit crazy in my opinion. The only way I could see someone feeling the need to do that is if the person leaving a review tends to review in extremes. Meaning...only ever leaving 1 star or 5 with no measured, true reviews that fall in the middle. Those reviewers seem to leave reviews based on emotions. Someone may try to reply in that case to balance what they view to be an unfair review or an extreme. Businesses do this on YELP. Since I don't see that being you based on your intelligent posts, I will say that his response sounds controlling and out of the ordinary.

 

I wish I could read scientific journals. I'm not a millionaire, though and if you aren't affiliated with any kind of institution that gets you access, it costs a fortune. :( I read a lot of abstracts.

 

I think what's easily missed when we're talking about book reviews is that I was never judging how he chose to educate his children, but rather that he wanted people to pay him to read about it. His methods aren't anything new and exciting, and imo, his kids weren't ready for college at fourteen, which makes the book's premise false. That's my opinion, though. It can be hard to review memoirs because it's so easy to blur the lines between critiquing the book and critiquing the person, but I was never saying, "He shouldn't have had his kids in comp 101," but rather, "He shouldn't be selling a book on this stuff when his kids weren't ready for comp 101."

[snowbeltmom]

I wish I could read scientific journals. I'm not a millionaire, though and if you aren't affiliated with any kind of institution that gets you access, it costs a fortune. :( I read a lot of abstracts.

 

I think what's easily missed when we're talking about book reviews is that I was never judging how he chose to educate his children, but rather that he wanted people to pay him to read about it. His methods aren't anything new and exciting, and imo, his kids weren't ready for college at fourteen, which makes the book's premise false. That's my opinion, though. It can be hard to review memoirs because it's so easy to blur the lines between critiquing the book and critiquing the person, but I was never saying, "He shouldn't have had his kids in comp 101," but rather, "He shouldn't be selling a book on this stuff when his kids weren't ready for comp 101."

At least some of his kids graduated with engineering degrees at age 18. I would say that his kids were ready for college level classes at 14 because it is impossible to graduate with an engineering degree in 4 years if you aren't ready to begin the engineering math sequence beginning with calculus out of the gate.

 

That being said, imo, he should not have responded to your review, which was the original topic of the thread before it veered off track. :-)

[maize]

Can anyone tell me if they treated their daughters' educations as they did their sons'?

Yes they did.

[MysteryJen]

I have definitely enjoyed reading this thread and have a few observations:

1. I don't like the emphasis on STEM to the exclusion of all else, but I feel I am definitely swimming against the tide here. But I am not in charge of his kids' education. I also feel like my dd2 is missing out on a great education at ps high school, but again, by sending her, I relinquished my right to be in control. His kids are successful by many, many people's definition, if not mine.

 

2. Y'all have some very exacting standards for comp 101. Remedial classes here are overflowing with recent high school graduates. Only one person mentioned that learning disabilites can come into play for writing. Thanks to that person. My senior is dysgraphic with actual paperwork to prove it and he did not contact the disability office at the cc. He tested out of remedial with his ACT score and has managed mostly A's in science and philosophy courses. The one course that he got a B in was primarily due to the short answer format of exams. With his barely legibile penmanship and serious impairment in writing, he still managed to get over 80 percent on every test. NOT even close to the worst grade in the class. According to some of you, he will never be ready for comp 101 because he needs help in editing. He uses Dragon (a speech to text program) and because it is not perfect, he needs to go through his papers line by line, word by word. This is overwhelming and I help. I could pay a tutor to do that, but I am free. Next year at college, he has already contacted the disability office and has names of tutors who help students with LDs. My dsylexic dd and dsygraphic son have taught me a lot about humility and what a life-long learning disability means. Dd2 will never read for pleasure, Ds2 might never be able to write a great paper without help, it doesn't mean either one isn't ready for college.

 

3. Lot of people, here on this board, have kids at cc at 14 or 15. Most of them are not extraordinarily gifted. Most are hard-working, ready to take the next step and are staying homeschooled for lots of different reasons. 

 

4. Not all cc's  are created equal. Some are very remedial, some are more challenging. This can very even within the cc. My kids have had easy classes-comparable to a high school class and they have had some that were more challenging than some of my college classes. 

 

5. Never respond to criticism about your book.  :lol:

 

[Guinevere]

When I see what my local schools are doing, this family met or exceeded the education their kids would have received at our high school, and got a stem degree on top of that. The world is wide open for his kids now, and they can get a job to pay for any education they want now. He set them up for life, and that's not something to scoff. Why does it matter that he focused on math ad science? Few high schoolers are specializing.

[Lady Florida.]

There is a difference between editing and proofreading. It's always appropriate to ask someone to proofread your work. A parent line-by-line edit of an assignment in a writing class is dancing right up to the line of cheating, IMO.

 

Right. And there's also a difference between being a homeschool teacher and being the parent of a college student. When I was teaching ds, right up through his sophomore year in high school, I looked at his papers and made edits and suggestions. Once he started dual enrollment, though we were still legally homeschooling, I was no longer his teacher in those subjects. If he needed help with a paper, he would see his CC professor for help. Occasionally he'd ask me to look over something, but in those cases I only made suggestions, and referred him to the teacher for more in depth criticism/help. Any more than that and I would have felt like I was encouraging him to cheat. 

[maize]

Right. And there's also a difference between being a homeschool teacher and being the parent of a college student. When I was teaching ds, right up through his sophomore year in high school, I looked at his papers and made edits and suggestions. Once he started dual enrollment, though we were still legally homeschooling, I was no longer his teacher in those subjects. If he needed help with a paper, he would see his CC professor for help. Occasionally he'd ask me to look over something, but in those cases I only made suggestions, and referred him to the teacher for more in depth criticism/help. Any more than that and I would have felt like I was encouraging him to cheat. 

 

Do you consider students who hire tutors to be cheating?

[displace]

Was the author’s response to the criticism on amazon? I didn’t see it.

 

I didn’t read the book. I do feel, for some gifted kids, acceleration when possible is very helpful. It can reduce the years of college, graduate, post graduate, and professional schooling. Cutting four years off 12 years of schooling can be a good idea. As can dual majors or dual degrees or truncated professional/college combinations. Or anything that works for that person, really. Or even spending extra time figuring out what you want to do.

[Lady Florida.]

Do you consider students who hire tutors to be cheating?

 

I don't consider a parent the same as a paid tutor.

 

Also, I've been a tutor, both independently and working for a tutoring company (back when my teaching certificate was still active). You give general suggestions (which I did for ds). You give style and format help. You don't give line by line edits. You don't rewrite a paper for your student. That's what we're talking about here.

[Mergath]

When I see what my local schools are doing, this family met or exceeded the education their kids would have received at our high school, and got a stem degree on top of that. The world is wide open for his kids now, and they can get a job to pay for any education they want now. He set them up for life, and that's not something to scoff. Why does it matter that he focused on math ad science? Few high schoolers are specializing.

 

For me, it matters because he gave his children no choice in the matter. I think specializing in high school is great when you're following your child's lead. But they were given the tools to be successful only so long as success means working in engineering or certain areas of science. I find it hard to imagine that, with that number of children, not a single one was interesting in going into the humanities. I mean, they even shut down the idea of majoring in math. The kids probably knew better than to say, "I think I want to be an author."

 

Everyone has their own definition of success, though. If someone sees education solely as a means to attain financial comfort, they were certainly successful in that regard. 

 

And I suppose theoretically they could pay for any education they want, but it's not as easy as that. You can't take years off from working in tech if you want your skills to stay up-to-date. But working full-time as an engineer or doctor and going to school even part-time would be exhausting.

[Mergath]

Was the author’s response to the criticism on amazon? I didn’t see it.

 

I didn’t read the book. I do feel, for some gifted kids, acceleration when possible is very helpful. It can reduce the years of college, graduate, post graduate, and professional schooling. Cutting four years off 12 years of schooling can be a good idea. As can dual majors or dual degrees or truncated professional/college combinations. Or anything that works for that person, really. Or even spending extra time figuring out what you want to do.

 

No, the reply was on Goodreads.

[maize]

I'm back to reading the book. Here's a small excerpt from of the daughters, written at age 23; she is married, has a baby, and is in a medical residency program:

 

"My homeschooling experience left me academically prepared to compete in the competitive environment of medicine. In less than two years, I’ll be done with my training and working a high-paying career with the flexibility to spend plenty of time with my child. What more could a career woman want?"

Edited March 7, 2018 by maize

[HS Mom in NC]

When I see what my local schools are doing, this family met or exceeded the education their kids would have received at our high school, and got a stem degree on top of that. The world is wide open for his kids now, and they can get a job to pay for any education they want now. He set them up for life, and that's not something to scoff. Why does it matter that he focused on math ad science? Few high schoolers are specializing.

 

Only if they're naturally a good fit for engineering.  Plenty of engineers are mediocre to TERRIBLE at what they do, but that's what their degree is in, so that's where they stay being a thorn in the side of their employers, co-workers, and customers.  STEM education has been so crappy for long it hasn't filtered out the chaff and companies have been bleeding resources because of them.

[maize]

Another anecdote from one of the kids, on taking the GRE to apply for graduate programs in engineering:

 

"Though not very difficult, the math on the GRE was tricky and aggravating, involving geometry and counting tricks either long since forgotten or simply never learned. I worked through problems until I felt that I was ready for the math portion, but I hardly practiced a lick of verbal or writing, save for a cursory investigation of the sections’ formats. Imagine my surprise when my test results popped up on the screen: Verbal: 167 / 170 Math: 161 / 170 How awkward and distressing. As an engineer, my verbal score is certainly not supposed to be better than my math score. So, I took the test again: Verbal: 170 / 170 Math: 160 / 170"

 

 

She was accepted into an electrical engineering program at MIT.

[MysteryJen]

To be fair, the author said he told the student to re-write the paper. With my first two who were good writers from the start, I said "fix grammar and check sentence structure, I will read the second draft." That did not work at all with my next two students. 

 

Line by line is the only pace that works for my son. I do not re-write his papers. He re-writes them slowly, using his own words and ideas, but he does it sentence by sentence. After 6 years of doing this for sentences, then paragraphs, then papers, he can do much of the heavy lifting of grammar, but the pace is slow. Think 1 hour per 700 words, for editing alone. I could re-write them in 15 minutes. But I don't. He is currently in a class that requires two 1500 word essays a week. He didn't want to drop it, so I spend hours watching him edit across the table from me. His papers are adequate by my standards, and not great at all by my husband's high standards, but he has an A in the class, so they must be good enough.

 

I don't actually appreciate all the veiled accusations of cheating. 

 

 

[Scarlett]

Well, I just now caught up on this. Wow. Amazing to me someone from here is following Meredith elsewhere to say ugly things.  

 

This homeschooling world is smaller than one would like to believe.

[Mergath]

I don't actually appreciate all the veiled accusations of cheating. 

 

I'm not sure if this is directed to me or not, but I never meant to imply there was any cheating happening. Only that they seemed unprepared for college-level writing.

[MysteryJen]

Numerous people have replied that line by line editing meant that a parent was re-writing the paper. My son is proof that a kid who is college ready according to the ACT might still need serious help in writing, and given what I have seen in public high school and the cc, not the only one. Lots of people use Grammarly, as they are composing their papers, emails, etc. That is line by line editing as you are writing. Grammarly is highly recommended by many teachers at the high school. Some people might think that is cheating as well.

 

 

[maize]

I'm not sure if this is directed to me or not, but I never meant to imply there was any cheating happening. Only that they seemed unprepared for college-level writing.

But we have no evidence of that.

 

We only know that the parents thought there was room for improvement.

 

There is always room for improvement.

 

Nowhere does the book suggest that the kids were failing writing assignments therefor the parents stepped in as tutors.

Edited March 7, 2018 by maize

[fralala]

Another anecdote from one of the kids, on taking the GRE to apply for graduate programs in engineering:

 

"Though not very difficult, the math on the GRE was tricky and aggravating, involving geometry and counting tricks either long since forgotten or simply never learned. I worked through problems until I felt that I was ready for the math portion, but I hardly practiced a lick of verbal or writing, save for a cursory investigation of the sections’ formats. Imagine my surprise when my test results popped up on the screen: Verbal: 167 / 170 Math: 161 / 170 How awkward and distressing. As an engineer, my verbal score is certainly not supposed to be better than my math score. So, I took the test again: Verbal: 170 / 170 Math: 160 / 170"

 

 

She was accepted into an electrical engineering program at MIT.

 

 

Thanks for sharing these quotations! They are helpful.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but for competitive programs like this, my impression is that almost all of the applicants are qualified for entrance. What distinguishes them is the other stuff, and I have no idea what it was for these kids (being one of many on this thread who have not read the book!), but it sounds like their parents also prioritized music? So it wasn't all STEM, all the time? I'm not sure why it would be awkward and distressing to be an engineer with superior verbal skills; her math score was close enough to perfect to make this sound a bit like a humblebrag. Perhaps it would have been more helpful to note that this is a sign of an education that was more well-rounded than others might assume?

[maize]

Thanks for sharing these quotations! They are helpful.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but for competitive programs like this, my impression is that almost all of the applicants are qualified for entrance. What distinguishes them is the other stuff, and I have no idea what it was for these kids (being one of many on this thread who have not read the book!), but it sounds like their parents also prioritized music? So it wasn't all STEM, all the time? I'm not sure why it would be awkward and distressing to be an engineer with superior verbal skills; her math score was close enough to perfect to make this sound a bit like a humblebrag. Perhaps it would have been more helpful to note that this is a sign of an education that was more well-rounded than others might assume?

It stood out to me as evidence that she wasn't deficient in English skills :)

 

She mentions further on the GRE is not a significant factor in MIT graduate admissions.

 

I didn't want to quote a huge chunk but she comes across to me more as surprised than as bragging about the English score--she was only aiming for/expecting adequate scores on that section.

Edited March 7, 2018 by maize

[unsinkable]

Numerous people have replied that line by line editing meant that a parent was re-writing the paper. My son is proof that a kid who is college ready according to the ACT might still need serious help in writing, and given what I have seen in public high school and the cc, not the only one. Lots of people use Grammarly, as they are composing their papers, emails, etc. That is line by line editing as you are writing. Grammarly is highly recommended by many teachers at the high school. Some people might think that is cheating as well.

Thanks for your reasoned reply.

 

It is starting to feel twilight zoney when the person who wrote ths:

 

"Keep in mind that the parents are trying to sell you a peek at their homeschooling methods, yet their kids were such poor writers that mom and dad had to rewrite their Comp 101 papers for them line by line to get them a passing grade."

 

Then goes on to say:

 

"I'm not sure if this is directed to me or not, but I never meant to imply there was any cheating happening. Only that they seemed unprepared for college-level writing."

[Paige]

Numerous people have replied that line by line editing meant that a parent was re-writing the paper. My son is proof that a kid who is college ready according to the ACT might still need serious help in writing, and given what I have seen in public high school and the cc, not the only one. Lots of people use Grammarly, as they are composing their papers, emails, etc. That is line by line editing as you are writing. Grammarly is highly recommended by many teachers at the high school. Some people might think that is cheating as well.

 

I've been confused by this thread. I'm with you, I don't understand how you would edit or proofread a paper without going line by line, sentence by sentence, word by word. Maybe there's some differences in what people are using the same words to talk about. I look at every word and every sentence if I'm proofreading. I will mark all punctuation mistakes, misspelled words, and areas of poor word choice/sentence structure or ambiguity. I do tell them how to fix punctuation and spelling, but with the others I will circle and make a note of why I think that area could be improved. The kids have to think about it themselves and come up with their own fixes, but I think I would be a poor proofreader if I saw areas for improvement and kept my mouth shut. 

 

If the kids are turning it in to someone else, they are free to ignore my comments and keep the original if they think there's no problem or like their words and sentences. 

 

My college professors also marked up my papers line by line. Sometimes there were positive comments, sometimes there were typos, sometimes they'd ask questions, but I consider that line by line editing too. I also think positive comments and questions are just as important as corrections and negative comments.

 

I think if you are in a college class,however, and someone other than yourself is finding more than a handful of corrections needed when they do a read through for you then you probably aren't prepared. I expect that as age and skill increase that my line by line editing of the kids' work should evolve and I'll have more positive comments and questions and few corrections or areas circled for reconsideration.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Paige

[maize]

It seems to me that the parents underestimate the degree to which natural IQ, math ability, innate mental health and executive function ability, lack of learning disabilities, etc. have contributed to their kids' success. This path worked--and worked well--for these kids. There are lots of kids out there for whom it wouldn't work.

 

I think the kids for whom it would not work as well are a majority.

 

But for their family it really does seem to have been a better than just acceptable path--those kids have done well in so many ways.

 

And no it wasn't just STEM all the time. There were lots of read alouds and library visits, lots of playing in the back yard, lots of music, scouts, sports, etc. They did study language arts and history, kids had time to pursue hobbies such as sewing.

 

I see way more positives than negatives.

[Greta]

I actually saw a far worse response from an author once, and it wasn't even a self-published or Kindle-only book.  A reviewer wrote a negative but very fair, very calm review, and the author went ballistic.  Complete with "How dare you question my integrity?" when the reviewer had done no such thing (guilty conscience?).  I mean it was a way over-the-top reaction.  The negative review hadn't convinced me not to buy the book, but the author's reaction to it sure did.  I went looking for it again, but I couldn't find it.  So I've either misremembered which book it was (possible, given my terrible memory) or it got taken down.

 

I've seen more moderate responses to negative reviews from authors (and honestly, I would put this one in that category too) but it still doesn't sit right.  It seems undignified for an author to respond to reviewers.  I don't know, maybe that's not the right way to put it, but it just feels wrong.  Let the book speak for itself.  Rabidly defending it just comes across as desperate.

 

 

[Catwoman]

I wish I could read scientific journals. I'm not a millionaire, though and if you aren't affiliated with any kind of institution that gets you access, it costs a fortune. :( I read a lot of abstracts.

 

I think what's easily missed when we're talking about book reviews is that I was never judging how he chose to educate his children, but rather that he wanted people to pay him to read about it. His methods aren't anything new and exciting, and imo, his kids weren't ready for college at fourteen, which makes the book's premise false. That's my opinion, though. It can be hard to review memoirs because it's so easy to blur the lines between critiquing the book and critiquing the person, but I was never saying, "He shouldn't have had his kids in comp 101," but rather, "He shouldn't be selling a book on this stuff when his kids weren't ready for comp 101."

I can understand what you’re saying, but it sounds like even if they needed some help from their parents in certain subjects, those kids still must have done very well on their exams or they wouldn’t have graduated with GPAs and standardized test scores that were high enough to get them admitted to prestigious graduate programs and medical schools. It sounds like these were highly intelligent kids.

 

Even if the parents actually wrote entire papers for them (which I don’t think they did,) that might have been enough to help them pass their classes, but it wouldn’t have been enough for them to get high grades in those classes. They would have had to demonstrate their writing skills in their exams — and if their writing was markedly different on their exams than in the papers they submitted, their professors probably would have noticed that and accused them of cheating.

 

I suspect that the kids’ writing skills were probably just fine, but the parents had exceptionally high standards and that’s why they were doing the line-by-line editing.

 

Eventually, I’m going to have to actually read the stupid book, but it’s probably going to make me feel like Loser Slacker Mom, so I’m hesitant. :D

[Mergath]

Thanks for your reasoned reply.

 

It is starting to feel twilight zoney when the person who wrote ths:

 

"Keep in mind that the parents are trying to sell you a peek at their homeschooling methods, yet their kids were such poor writers that mom and dad had to rewrite their Comp 101 papers for them line by line to get them a passing grade."

 

Then goes on to say:

 

"I'm not sure if this is directed to me or not, but I never meant to imply there was any cheating happening. Only that they seemed unprepared for college-level writing."

And you'll notice that nowhere did I bring up cheating.

 

I'm tempted to say something about the sky being blue to see if you'll argue about that, too. I'm not sure what you get out of disagreeing with every single thing I say in every post on this forum, but it isn't very productive for either of us.

[Catwoman]

Thanks for your reasoned reply.

 

It is starting to feel twilight zoney when the person who wrote ths:

 

"Keep in mind that the parents are trying to sell you a peek at their homeschooling methods, yet their kids were such poor writers that mom and dad had to rewrite their Comp 101 papers for them line by line to get them a passing grade."

 

Then goes on to say:

 

"I'm not sure if this is directed to me or not, but I never meant to imply there was any cheating happening. Only that they seemed unprepared for college-level writing."

I agree. Even if Mergath didn’t intend for it to come across that way, several people here have certainly interpreted it as the parents having to help their children cheat in order to get a passing grade in their writing class.

 

If the kids were unprepared for college-level writing and the parents “had to rewrite†their papers for them, that does seem to imply cheating.

 

Right now, Mergath is probably wishing she never started this thread. She just wanted to vent about the author responding to her review, and it turned into a multi-page discussion on educational ethics and college-preparedness.

 

And in the end, the guy will probably end up with a lot more people reading his stupid book than would have ever even heard of it if not for this thread! :svengo:

[Mergath]

I agree. Even if Mergath didn’t intend for it to come across that way, several people here have certainly interpreted it as the parents having to help their children cheat in order to get a passing grade in their writing class.

 

If the kids were unprepared for college-level writing and the parents “had to rewrite†their papers for them, that does seem to imply cheating.

 

Right now, Mergath is probably wishing she never started this thread. She just wanted to vent about the author responding to her review, and it turned into a multi-page discussion on educational ethics and college-preparedness.

 

And in the end, the guy will probably end up with a lot more people reading his stupid book than would have ever even heard of it if not for this thread! :svengo:

The lovely thing about this is that people are completely free to disagree with my interpretation of his book and its usefulness. ;) I never meant to make it sound like I want everyone to agree with me. For that to happen, we would all have to agree on what constitutes a complete education, and I see no flying pigs.

 

Also, I'm guessing many of those people who get the book out of curiosity will get three or four pages in and realize they've made a terrible mistake, lol.

[Catwoman]

The lovely thing about this is that people are completely free to disagree with my interpretation of his book and its usefulness. ;) I never meant to make it sound like I want everyone to agree with me. For that to happen, we would all have to agree on what constitutes a complete education, and I see no flying pigs.

 

Also, I'm guessing many of those people who get the book out of curiosity will get three or four pages in and realize they've made a terrible mistake, lol.

My problem is that based on what you told us about the book and the fact that the guy responded to your review, I don’t want to give him another sale, so I don’t even want to read his book for free!

[maize]

From the conclusion:

 

"One thing we learned from our experience is that parents who value education will find the right path for their children. We do not think that one path is necessarily best for all children because there are so many differences between people and family situations. Each path has different challenges and rewards. What we advocate is that parents be concerned about and involved in their children’s education. Be persistent in finding the opportunities your children need to become prepared for life. Do not take no for an answer, or, when the answer for a particular path is in truth no, find another approach. Do whatever is best for your children, even if it means you have to take a path that is less traveled."

[unsinkable]

And you'll notice that nowhere did I bring up cheating.

 

I'm tempted to say something about the sky being blue to see if you'll argue about that, too. I'm not sure what you get out of disagreeing with every single thing I say in every post on this forum, but it isn't very productive for either of us.

 

 

What is it when Person A rewrites something for Person B and Person B turns it in to a class for a grade as her own (Person B's) work?

 

We're on an education forum. Cheating, plagarism, and academic integrity (or lack thereof) and accusing people of it is pretty serious.

[MBM]

I find their conclusion completely ironic given that they would NOT allow any of their kids to pursue anything other than a STEM degree. (And it seems that at least one of the kids, mentioned in a quote above, had a verbal aptitude which was stronger than mathematical aptitude, based on GRE scores.)

I was kind of hoping one of the kids would be a rebel and insist on being the artist, actor, wood carver, Instagram star, etc. Maybe we will have to wait a few years to see if they all stay STEM.

 

My mother was not opposed to STEM but leaned more toward studying art and music. I can still remember vividly my mother saying to me, “ You know what? I think you should be...a puppeteer.†LOL.

[Catwoman]

I was kind of hoping one of the kids would be a rebel and insist on being the artist, actor, wood carver, Instagram star, etc. Maybe we will have to wait a few years to see if they all stay STEM.

 

My mother was not opposed to STEM but leaned more toward studying art and music. I can still remember vividly my mother saying to me, “ You know what? I think you should be...a puppeteer.†LOL.

So how’s the puppeteer thing working out for you? :D

[MBM]

So how’s the puppeteer thing working out for you? :D

I’m afraid I destroyed her dream. ðŸ˜

[HS Mom in NC]

I was kind of hoping one of the kids would be a rebel and insist on being the artist, actor, wood carver, Instagram star, etc. Maybe we will have to wait a few years to see if they all stay STEM.

 

My mother was not opposed to STEM but leaned more toward studying art and music. I can still remember vividly my mother saying to me, “ You know what? I think you should be...a puppeteer.†LOL.

 

You coulda had a career on the Muppet Show or.......ummmm.......

 

[HS Mom in NC]

... or any Vacation Bible School in the nation! Lol

 

Only the ones with bigger budgets.  The low budget alternative is to reuse the flannelgraphs from 1983 each year.

 

[Catwoman]

I believe I was the first poster to use the word "cheating" and what I said was they are dancing right up to the line. I stand by that. We don't have enough information to know what side of the line they land on -- whether the parents' editing is more along the lines of "you need more facts to support this statement" or "say 'xyz' here."

 

Initially I agreed with other posters that a student who needs individual tutoring isn't ready for the class. But with the further information I think that the students aren't truly taking the class. The parents are teaching writing using the CC class as their material. Which, if I were the teacher and knew what was going on, I would find irritating. They are ensuring that the teacher cannot effectively teach their kids, because the teacher has no idea what those students need to work on if she never sees their raw work. But they don't need the teacher to be able to effectively teach, because they are doing the teaching.

But the kids still needed to attend class and take the tests, right? The teachers saw their raw, unedited work on quizzes and exams, so if the kids’ work in class was dramatically worse than it was on the papers they wrote at home, wouldn’t the teachers smell a rat?

 

If the kids showed up for class and scored well on the tests, I’m not sure it matters if the parents helped them at home. As long as the parents didn’t actually do the assignments for the kids, what’s the difference between a hired tutor and a parent if they’re essentially doing the same thing? People often hire tutors for their college students or the kids go to a tutoring center and people seem to believe that’s perfectly fine. Why wouldn’t it be fine for the parents to assume that same role?

 

And we’re also assuming that the kids had good teachers for their college classes. That’s not always the case. Maybe the parents stepped in to help because they felt the teachers weren’t up to par.

 

I am having a hard time judging the parents too harshly on this issue, mainly because it seems like whatever they did must have been pretty effective, since the kids all ended up with excellent educations.

[unsinkable]

I believe I was the first poster to use the word "cheating" and what I said was they are dancing right up to the line. I stand by that. We don't have enough information to know what side of the line they land on -- whether the parents' editing is more along the lines of "you need more facts to support this statement" or "say 'xyz' here."

 

Initially I agreed with other posters that a student who needs individual tutoring isn't ready for the class. But with the further information I think that the students aren't truly taking the class. The parents are teaching writing using the CC class as their material. Which, if I were the teacher and knew what was going on, I would find irritating. They are ensuring that the teacher cannot effectively teach their kids, because the teacher has no idea what those students need to work on if she never sees their raw work. But they don't need the teacher to be able to effectively teach, because they are doing the teaching.

About your first paragraph: If you based that conclusion on the quote from the book, fair enough. I can understand how you can interpret what quote said that way (I interpret it differently).

 

But in terms of the quote from the review:

 

"Keep in mind that the parents are trying to sell you a peek at their homeschooling methods, yet their kids were such poor writers that mom and dad had to rewrite their Comp 101 papers for them line by line to get them a passing grade."

 

Is that not the definition of cheating: *turning in work that someone else did for you for a grade*?

[Paige]

But the kids still needed to attend class and take the tests, right? The teachers saw their raw, unedited work on quizzes and exams, so if the kids’ work in class was dramatically worse than it was on the papers they wrote at home, wouldn’t the teachers smell a rat?

 

 

 

I don't recall any exams, quizzes, or in class work in my college writing classes. 

[OneStepAtATime]

I don't recall any exams, quizzes, or in class work in my college writing classes. 

I don't remember quizzes but we did do in class writing.  Not sure if that is the norm or not but we did writing in class and writing outside of class.  And I seem to vaguely recall some sort of exam in a writing class but I don't remember what class or what the exam was over.  I just remember being irritated because I can't write quickly and we had to write a lot.  I don't think exams were the norm, though, in my college writing classes.

[JudoMom]

I don't recall any exams, quizzes, or in class work in my college writing classes.

I know ds17 had to write an in class paper as his final last semester for English 101.

[LucyStoner]

But the kids still needed to attend class and take the tests, right? The teachers saw their raw, unedited work on quizzes and exams, so if the kids’ work in class was dramatically worse than it was on the papers they wrote at home, wouldn’t the teachers smell a rat?

 

If the kids showed up for class and scored well on the tests, I’m not sure it matters if the parents helped them at home. As long as the parents didn’t actually do the assignments for the kids, what’s the difference between a hired tutor and a parent if they’re essentially doing the same thing? People often hire tutors for their college students or the kids go to a tutoring center and people seem to believe that’s perfectly fine. Why wouldn’t it be fine for the parents to assume that same role?

 

And we’re also assuming that the kids had good teachers for their college classes. That’s not always the case. Maybe the parents stepped in to help because they felt the teachers weren’t up to par.

 

I am having a hard time judging the parents too harshly on this issue, mainly because it seems like whatever they did must have been pretty effective, since the kids all ended up with excellent educations.

 

My ENG 101 and 102 classes were graded entirely on the papers, with a small part of the grade coming from class participation.  There was definitely no final exam or quizzes.  

[LucyStoner]

Another anecdote from one of the kids, on taking the GRE to apply for graduate programs in engineering:

 

"Though not very difficult, the math on the GRE was tricky and aggravating, involving geometry and counting tricks either long since forgotten or simply never learned. I worked through problems until I felt that I was ready for the math portion, but I hardly practiced a lick of verbal or writing, save for a cursory investigation of the sections’ formats. Imagine my surprise when my test results popped up on the screen: Verbal: 167 / 170 Math: 161 / 170 How awkward and distressing. As an engineer, my verbal score is certainly not supposed to be better than my math score. So, I took the test again: Verbal: 170 / 170 Math: 160 / 170"

 

 

She was accepted into an electrical engineering program at MIT.

 

What is awkward and distressing about that?  I was a math major whose verbal scores outpaced my math scores.  My verbal SAT, for example, was just about perfect.  My math scores were 100 points off that.  My son intends to be an engineer (and has only ever wanted to be an engineer) and again for standardized and college entrance exams, while his math scores are high, his verbal scores are as high as they get.  Maybe that is unusual for many engineering students but it's not a problem, assuming the math abilities are there. 

[Crimson Wife]

I don't recall any exams, quizzes, or in class work in my college writing classes.

This is definitely going to vary from school to school. My daughter’s CC had in-class exams as well as papers written outside of class. I know because I had to buy her blue books (super annoying that they didn’t just tack on a supply fee up front)

 

 

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