Why do homeschool parents who publish books do this?

[Bluegoat]

I would guess this is the case for about 95% of people going to college today. A college degree is a piece of paper that signals employability, and that's how most people look at going to college today (in the US).

 

 

This I can agree with - it seems like they found the main purpose of a college education to be getting a job.

 

But I can see where they are coming from. The vast majority (Vaaaaaast majority) of professors, both in private and public universities, lean heavily left in their sociopolitical beliefs.  It's not a secret.  If your options were to send your kids to receive higher education from people who are 95% conservatives, and many of them very conservative - to the point that most of your college options look like Bob Jones University - you might say to yourself, well, I don't want to send my kids to be indoctrinated at Bob Jones University, but being without a college education in the US puts you at a serious financial disadvantage, so I'll find a way to send them to college for job training in disciplines that are more neutral by design (that is to say, STEM).   

 

I don't think many liberals or leftists or whatever (or many people who are fairly centrist, or even moderately conservative) stop to consider what the college landscape looks like to someone who is very conservative (not that I know whether this book's author is or isn't).  To us, it looks like it would look like to you if the vast majority of schools were clones of either Liberty, BJU, Hillsdale, or maybe the service academies - and if those were significantly more conservative in actual campus culture than they are now.  You would see the value of a college education differently if those were, largely speaking, your only choices.

 

 

 

I think though with both of these issues, had the kids been the normal age for entering school, it might have looked quite different.

 

Perhaps one of them would have been really suited to the humanities and higher education, and wanted that.

 

And presumably a young adult is capable of going to a place with varied political views - even should be exposed to varied political views.  Who says all those kids would choose the same political/social thinking as their parents?

 

At 14, it's somewhat responsible to be wary that others might take advantage of kids intellectually (though personally I have never had reason to restrict my kids reading over that kind of stuff and don't think it generally is a good idea to do so.)  But at 17, 18, 19 - they should be entering into community life.

 

This obsession with starting college as a child when their level of work didn't really even require it set them on a very rigid path.

[mamaraby]

Everyone draws the line between honest critiques and meanness differently though. Personally, I don't see anything especially mean about Mergath's review. And the truth is, even if you get a very negative review or comment, mean or otherwise, it's just wiser to not engage. I am much less likely to buy books or eat at a restaurant where the author or owner replies to their negative reviews defensively or makes a habit of replying to all their reviews.

Definitley this. I expect there to be a mix of negative reviews and positive reviews. Every business has a bad day. Sometimes it’s legitimately an issue and sometimes the reviewer is the problem. I need a business owner that trusts that I have a brain and can discern this for myself. There’s nothing that will send me running from a business faster than an owner who feels the need to correct the record and posts responses to their negative reviews. To me that screams, “this review is legitimate!!†And also, if they behave that way in the comments on reviews, they’re likely not going to be pleasant to deal with in person.

 

It’s when you don’t have negative reviews that I doubt your product. It’s when your book has all positive reviews that I figure I probably don’t want to buy it - this is especially true when it’s self-published. Plus, when it comes to negative reviews on books, sometimes that helps me decide to buy it. X issue might be a huge deal for a reviewer, but no biggie for me. The negative review gives the self-published book some credibility. Hey, this book was read by more than the author’s mother and is a real book.

[eternalsummer]

But once they were old enough to pay for and choose their own higher education - 19 or so - they could have chosen an advanced degree (or even another bachelors, I guess, if they were determined) in the humanities, right?

 

 

I disagree that a university is a place with varied political views.  If your choices for university were truly BJU or Liberty University, would you want to pay them to educate your kids?  If sending them to these places were basically the only way for them to enter or stay in middle/upper middle class society, maybe you'd send them, but I doubt you'd say to yourself, well, they need to be exposed to varied political views.  

 

 

I guess I see their view of homeschooling as somewhat different from mine - I want to direct (to some degree) my kids' educations in high school, that is why we homeschool. I do believe in the value of a true liberal arts education (in high school). I can't really see turning that over to a community college.  But they saw the purpose of high school education as something much different, obviously - they saw it as the first part of a differentiated education in which you were basically career training, not educating the whole child or whatever.  There are countries that operate more like this and require a much less broad-based education in high school, and there are certainly groups within society (largely immigrant groups from Asia, ime) who are more likely to see some degrees as much more valuable than others, and encourage their kids to pursue only these disciplines.

 

 

[Mimm]

In the writing world you NEVER EVER EVER respond to reviews. EVER. It isn't done. It's considered nearly stalking. It is totally inappropriate on every level. 

 

That said, I think that Kelli Johnson's post was WAY more inappropriate. 

 

This is a whole other thing, but you calling it stalking reminded me of when I bought this sketchbook and had WAY too much contact with the creator of the sketchbook. As soon as the order came in, they emailed me thanking me for the order. They emailed again, telling me when it was shipping, and emailed me again, shortly after it arrived, saying they hoped I liked it, and suggesting that I review it. I bought it on Amazon, so all these emails were in addition to the emails I got from Amazon confirming the order, and notifying me of shipping. Then I gave it a good review because I actually liked it, and they commented on the review thanking me and letting me know that a larger size would be coming out soon if I was interested. Then I got one last email asking if there was anything else I needed from them. I ignored all the emails and didn't reply to the comment on my review but my goodness these people need another job or a hobby or a dog or something in their lives. I can't imagine having that much spare time on my hands that I can cyberstalk everyone that purchased my item.

 

The sketchbook fell apart before it was half filled, so I need to lower my rating but I haven't gotten around to it, partly because I have no idea how these people will react. Which may be the point. :)

[eternalsummer]

Definitley this. I expect there to be a mix of negative reviews and positive reviews. Every business has a bad day. Sometimes it’s legitimately an issue and sometimes the reviewer is the problem. I need a business owner that trusts that I have a brain and can discern this for myself. There’s nothing that will send me running from a business faster than an owner who feels the need to correct the record and posts responses to their negative reviews. To me that screams, “this review is legitimate!!†And also, if they behave that way in the comments on reviews, they’re likely not going to be pleasant to deal with in person.

 

It’s when you don’t have negative reviews that I doubt your product. It’s when your book has all positive reviews that I figure I probably don’t want to buy it - this is especially true when it’s self-published. Plus, when it comes to negative reviews on books, sometimes that helps me decide to buy it. X issue might be a huge deal for a reviewer, but no biggie for me. The negative review gives the self-published book some credibility. Hey, this book was read by more than the author’s mother and is a real book.

 

 

Just for anyone reading who runs a small business, I don't know about the writing world so it may be different, but the stats say that you should respond to negative reviews.

 

Obviously not with a chip on your shoulder - that is a bad idea.  But it is also a bad idea to leave negative reviews unaddressed. 

If they are legitimate, (ex: You shipped my labels 3 days late and never responded to my last conversation!!!!), you apologize and explain both how you will/have fixed this customer's issue and how you will avoid making the same mistake(s) in the future (ex: I'm sorry, they did go out a few days late.  We've been running behind this week and should have sent you an email to notify you of the delay; I've issued a refund for your shipping cost.  We've extended our processing times to leave a little more cushion for busy times in the future). 

 

If they are illegitimate (ex: I had to pay import taxes of $15 just to pick up these labels and they were much smaller than I thought they would be and the seller wouldn't put a different value on the customs form so that I wouldn't have to pay the taxes!!!!), you explain calmly and somewhat impersonally why the issue they're complaining about is not legitimate, if possible expressing some sympathy with their disappointment (ex: Unfortunately it is a crime in the US for us to lie on the customs form about the cost of purchase.  I wish you didn't have to pay import taxes either :)  The size of the labels is something you selected from the first drop-down menu when making the purchase; you did select the smallest size.  We can make them at almost any size you like in the future, though, up to 4" wide.)

[Dmmetler]

I do think it’s possible to get a wide and varied liberal arts education using a community college if you’re not focused on getting a degree as quickly as possible. And from what we’ve found, there are a lot of really good, passionate about their subject people, especially in humanities, teaching at the CC level. And the deep discussions at home don’t have to stop, either. If anything, they’ve gotten deeper and more intense. We’re not exactly homeschooling anymore, but learning at home didn’f stop when DD started at the CC. It just changed.

[mamaraby]

Just for anyone reading who runs a small business, I don't know about the writing world so it may be different, but the stats say that you should respond to negative reviews.

 

Obviously not with a chip on your shoulder - that is a bad idea. But it is also a bad idea to leave negative reviews unaddressed.

If they are legitimate, (ex: You shipped my labels 3 days late and never responded to my last conversation!!!!), you apologize and explain both how you will/have fixed this customer's issue and how you will avoid making the same mistake(s) in the future (ex: I'm sorry, they did go out a few days late. We've been running behind this week and should have sent you an email to notify you of the delay; I've issued a refund for your shipping cost. We've extended our processing times to leave a little more cushion for busy times in the future).

 

If they are illegitimate (ex: I had to pay import taxes of $15 just to pick up these labels and they were much smaller than I thought they would be and the seller wouldn't put a different value on the customs form so that I wouldn't have to pay the taxes!!!!), you explain calmly and somewhat impersonally why the issue they're complaining about is not legitimate, if possible expressing some sympathy with their disappointment (ex: Unfortunately it is a crime in the US for us to lie on the customs form about the cost of purchase. I wish you didn't have to pay import taxes either :) The size of the labels is something you selected from the first drop-down menu when making the purchase; you did select the smallest size. We can make them at almost any size you like in the future, though, up to 4" wide.)

Eh, as a customer, I’m going to disagree. Especially since small business owners tend to be the worst at responding impersonally. Maybe then it’s a good idea that if you’re going to do it, that to run your replies by someone not involved in your business first? Because more often than not, when the small business owner replies, ime, it veers off into Streisand effect land.

 

As a customer, if you very few reviews, then I can see where responses like the above could be helpful, but if you’ve been in business for awhile, then I’m going to be looking at trends when reading your negative reviews and not your responses. I don’t care so much about why you were shipping things late to any one person. I’m going to care if it seems to be a habit. Also, I can figure out when the negative reviewer is being unreasonable like in your second example, even without you replying. Except if you reply to every single review and are kind of a jerk...then yeah, I’m going to be giving those negative reviews a whole lot more weight.

 

YMMV and all that.

Edited March 6, 2018 by mamaraby

[Butter]

You quoted me and then commented that Kelli Johnson's comments were reported for abuse, with a winky thing.

I assure you, it didn't even occur to me that you could possibly be Kelli Johnson until you asked if I thought you were (and I still don't think you are).  I simply responded to a post you made and then went on from there in a different paragraph to a completely different subject that had come up in the thread.  I do that a lot.

 

Kelli Johnson's comments have been removed.  I guess Amazon agreed they were abuse.

[unsinkable]

I assure you, it didn't even occur to me that you could possibly be Kelli Johnson until you asked if I thought you were (and I still don't think you are). I simply responded to a post you made and then went on from there in a different paragraph to a completely different subject that had come up in the thread. I do that a lot.

 

Kelli Johnson's comments have been removed. I guess Amazon agreed they were abuse.

. Thanks. I appreciate your response.

[Crimson Wife]

I don't have the book on my kindle anymore so I can't look up the quote, but I'm not the only one who caught that in the book if you look at the other thread. I can't remember the exact wording, but they said they had to sit down with their kids once they started college and edit each line of the papers. I know when I read that part in the book, I was flabbergasted that a parent would think a kid was ready for college if that was necessary.

 

Word. I can't even get my DE student to let me proofread her papers because she wants to do it all on her own. I've pointed out to her that proofreading isn't plagiarism so long as the content is hers and that the CC has a writing lab with tutors doing the same thing.

 

[KungFuPanda]

It sounds like they’re treating cc as a co-op class for high school level English. A kid with excellent high school English classes needs no help with these courses. A child with middle school level writing skills WILL need excessive hand holding to get through. It sounds like a really expensive way to teach these skills when you’re capable of doing it at home.

[Crimson Wife]

And also, this annoys me for another reason. It can be extremely difficult to get younger than typical kids into community college programs. The standard for “college ready†for that age group often is way, way more difficult to meet than it is for an 18 yr old. Putting in writing that you edited and supported your kids through CC English to an exhausting level and marketing it as “everyone should do this†just sends a message that these younger than average homeschooled to college kids really aren’t college ready, and is likely to result in more hoops or outright barriers.

 

My DD had to pass the High School Proficiency Exam as well as the college's placement exam in order to start in regular UC-transferable Freshman Composition rather than remedial or "college writing" (which counts towards the associate's but won't transfer). She took those tests completely on her own and must've written a decent enough essay on both to pass.

 

That makes me wonder if the guy is just a perfectionist who micromanages his kids' writing to get it from decent to excellent. You know that saying about it taking 10% of the effort to get it 90% of the way there and then 90% of the effort to get the last 10%...

[Catwoman]

It sounds like they’re treating cc as a co-op class for high school level English. A kid with excellent high school English classes needs no help with these courses. A child with middle school level writing skills WILL need excessive hand holding to get through. It sounds like a really expensive way to teach these skills when you’re capable of doing it at home.

I could be wrong about this because I haven’t read the book, but I’m guessing that the parents were mainly concerned that their kids graduate from college at an early age, so they figured if the kids were going to take the time to master a subject, they might as well do it for college credit.

[Catwoman]

My DD had to pass the High School Proficiency Exam as well as the college's placement exam in order to start in regular UC-transferable Freshman Composition rather than remedial or "college writing" (which counts towards the associate's but won't transfer). She took those tests completely on her own and must've written a decent enough essay on both to pass.

 

That makes me wonder if the guy is just a perfectionist who micromanages his kids' writing to get it from decent to excellent. You know that saying about it taking 10% of the effort to get it 90% of the way there and then 90% of the effort to get the last 10%...

That’s an interesting point. Maybe the kids could have easily earned good grades on their own, but nothing but an A was good enough to satisfy the parents. I’m sure many of us have known families who were such perfectionists that a B might as well be a failing grade.

 

Did the book mention anything about the kids’ college grades?

[Crimson Wife]

Bingo. I went to college early but still got high grades when I attended and life wasn’t exploding. Of course that lead to a lovely phenomenon I didn’t previously know existed called college bullying, whereby adult students of varying ages sit behind you and snark when you answer questions correctly 🙄

 

But academically I needed no tutoring or help, and still got grades above 85%. I was college ready academically on those subjects by 13-14. It does happen.

 

Do I think my own children are going to be? Eh, probably not. And even if they are I’d rather add deeper texts in their homeschooling and do maybe a select few early at the local community college while they’re still at home. The social stuff was the challenge, never the material.

 

Saying this gently, but your kids are still young. You may find that when they hit puberty they start resisting homeschooling and the only way for them to actually cooperate with getting academic work done is to outsource. If your only choices for outsourcing that you could actually afford were the zoned public school with gang problems and no honors courses before 11th vs. DE at the CC, I'm guessing you'd pick the latter.

 

I wish there were more affordable outsourcing options for HS because we cannot justify spending $500+ per course when each CC course is around $150 and gives credit towards the bachelor's.

 

[maize]

That’s an interesting point. Maybe the kids could have easily earned good grades on their own, but nothing but an A was good enough to satisfy the parents. I’m sure many of us have known families who were such perfectionists that a B might as well be a failing grade.

 

Did the book mention anything about the kids’ college grades?

They got into medical school and other good grad programs.

 

All STEM programs though, I doubt a B in Freshman composition would make or break those admissions.

Edited March 6, 2018 by maize

[ktgrok]

Yeah, in writing you don't do that. Mainly because you can't fix the problem for them, lol. You can't or won't rewrite the book, so, there is nothing to do other than argue. But also it's considered intimidation, to comment on reviews. 

Just for anyone reading who runs a small business, I don't know about the writing world so it may be different, but the stats say that you should respond to negative reviews.

 

Obviously not with a chip on your shoulder - that is a bad idea.  But it is also a bad idea to leave negative reviews unaddressed. 

If they are legitimate, (ex: You shipped my labels 3 days late and never responded to my last conversation!!!!), you apologize and explain both how you will/have fixed this customer's issue and how you will avoid making the same mistake(s) in the future (ex: I'm sorry, they did go out a few days late.  We've been running behind this week and should have sent you an email to notify you of the delay; I've issued a refund for your shipping cost.  We've extended our processing times to leave a little more cushion for busy times in the future). 

 

If they are illegitimate (ex: I had to pay import taxes of $15 just to pick up these labels and they were much smaller than I thought they would be and the seller wouldn't put a different value on the customs form so that I wouldn't have to pay the taxes!!!!), you explain calmly and somewhat impersonally why the issue they're complaining about is not legitimate, if possible expressing some sympathy with their disappointment (ex: Unfortunately it is a crime in the US for us to lie on the customs form about the cost of purchase.  I wish you didn't have to pay import taxes either :)  The size of the labels is something you selected from the first drop-down menu when making the purchase; you did select the smallest size.  We can make them at almost any size you like in the future, though, up to 4" wide.)

 

[Bluegoat]

But once they were old enough to pay for and choose their own higher education - 19 or so - they could have chosen an advanced degree (or even another bachelors, I guess, if they were determined) in the humanities, right?

 

 

I disagree that a university is a place with varied political views.  If your choices for university were truly BJU or Liberty University, would you want to pay them to educate your kids?  If sending them to these places were basically the only way for them to enter or stay in middle/upper middle class society, maybe you'd send them, but I doubt you'd say to yourself, well, they need to be exposed to varied political views.  

 

 

I guess I see their view of homeschooling as somewhat different from mine - I want to direct (to some degree) my kids' educations in high school, that is why we homeschool. I do believe in the value of a true liberal arts education (in high school). I can't really see turning that over to a community college.  But they saw the purpose of high school education as something much different, obviously - they saw it as the first part of a differentiated education in which you were basically career training, not educating the whole child or whatever.  There are countries that operate more like this and require a much less broad-based education in high school, and there are certainly groups within society (largely immigrant groups from Asia, ime) who are more likely to see some degrees as much more valuable than others, and encourage their kids to pursue only these disciplines.

 

I guess you could go get another degree, though I think once you've been set down a particular path, it can be more difficult to veer off.  I wonder too if they would realize that they had missed out.

 

I don't care particularly about the political or religious orientation of the university my kids go to, as long as it's academically sound.  My sense is that BJU isn't but that is based on very little real knowledge, just what I've read here about their programs. I

expect young adults to be making decisions like that with some ability to discern and with the expectation that they will form their own views.  A younger kid who just can't find work at their level in hs or ms, well, you make do with what will work and maybe that would mean you choose a university program for them.  But pushing them to perform at a level where they really can't engage in the way that would benefit them most? It seems like a waste to me.

[eternalsummer]

That makes sense for writing, it is a very different thing.

[Bluegoat]

Yeah, in writing you don't do that. Mainly because you can't fix the problem for them, lol. You can't or won't rewrite the book, so, there is nothing to do other than argue. But also it's considered intimidation, to comment on reviews. 

 

Yes, that's why it seems weird to me.  Even a technical problem with the book would be a different story IMO, though I'd expect the publisher or seller to deal with that rather than the author.

 

If the review was just false in  serious way, I think having it removed would e the ideal.

[fraidycat]

Saying this gently, but your kids are still young. You may find that when they hit puberty they start resisting homeschooling and the only way for them to actually cooperate with getting academic work done is to outsource. If your only choices for outsourcing that you could actually afford were the zoned public school with gang problems and no honors courses before 11th vs. DE at the CC, I'm guessing you'd pick the latter.

 

I wish there were more affordable outsourcing options for HS because we cannot justify spending $500+ per course when each CC course is around $150 and gives credit towards the bachelor's.

 

So true. My kids are in public school - and we live apart from my husband as he finishes up the last year of his military career to make it happen. For the simple fact that DD refused to put any kind of effort in to anything resembling educational material... for me. This same kid is maintaining a 90+ average in her high school classes because she is doing the work for other other people to grade.

 

Oh, and She was the one who begged me to homeschool her in the first place.

[Dmmetler]

They got into medical school and other good grad programs.

 

All STEM programs though, I doubt a B in Freshman composition would make or break those admissions.

 

Not only that, but by starting at the CC and transferring, the transferred credits may not have figured into the GPA at ASU.  I suspect a grad school would care more about the transcript from the state U than from the CC, and usually that would reflect the classes done there.

[LucyStoner]

I will say this. My 12 year old son was probably more college ready in many ways than that same son is now as he turns 15.

 

Puberty causes (many) people to lose their damn minds.

 

Academically, he may be somewhat better prepared as he’s had more math, developed more as a writer. But his study skills and ability to focus? Have all gone on vacation. He’s grown a foot or so and the intensity of his emotions as about himself as he navigates this period is something that I don’t think would lend itself well to college success.

 

He’s a kid who was definitely competitive for early college admissions programs (for the young scholars program at flagship state U and not community college or the ASU level state schools either) and was actually asked to apply by the director and it was brought up all the time as an option by those at the homeschool program he attended very part time but as his 8th grade year unfolded, I was really glad we had other options. 14 looks so different from 12 for him.

 

So I see why a 14 year old might need a lot of help to go to college. And it’s why I think he will get more out of college a bit later.

 

When I see things that minimize the developmental realities of being a young teen, I tend to put less stock in them.

Edited March 6, 2018 by LucyStoner

[Dmmetler]

Honestly, it won't surprise me to see DD need a gap year in another year or two to circle the wagons and grow up a bit :). 13 looks different from 12, and I suspect 14 and 15 will look different still. It is definitely a "take every year as you go" sort of thing, just like it's been since we decided to homeschool when she was 5.

[kiana]

But once they were old enough to pay for and choose their own higher education - 19 or so - they could have chosen an advanced degree (or even another bachelors, I guess, if they were determined) in the humanities, right?

 

This is more challenging than it looks. 

 

A second bachelor's would usually have to be completely self-funded (or funded through employment) and often would require paying higher tuition because a significant amount of credits have already been accumulated. Gov. is not very interested in paying for people who already have degrees to get more degrees or for people to take a long time to finish. 

 

An advanced degree in the humanities is challenging to get admitted to without having done the undergrad preparation. It's not as bad as changing to STEM, but someone with an engineering degree trying to go for history is at a substantial disadvantage, especially if they didn't take much in college and what they did take was a git-r-done class at a CC. 

[snowbeltmom]

That’s an interesting point. Maybe the kids could have easily earned good grades on their own, but nothing but an A was good enough to satisfy the parents. I’m sure many of us have known families who were such perfectionists that a B might as well be a failing grade.

 

Did the book mention anything about the kids’ college grades?

I didn't read the entire book, but from what I did read, my take-away was that the parents wanted their kids to have access to lab sciences in high school, and the public high school wouldn't let their kids take the classes there, so the parents enrolled them in college classes instead.

 

 

As far as editing the kids' writing ..maybe the parents felt that it was easier to have someone else come up with the writing assignments and have their kids have deadlines imposed by someone else. However, the parents wanted to provide their kids with additional individual attention and instruction than they would have received otherwise.

I guess I fall into the perfectionist category because I also would have worked with my kids at that age if I felt their writing needed work. It would not be about the grade, but about making sure they developed strong writing skills.

 

It seems to me that the parents were considering these college classes as their kids' high school years and had plans for all of them to continue their educations elsewhere after getting their bachelors.

 

 

These kids all went on to prestigious universities for graduate school, so this approach seems to have worked well for this family.

[theelfqueen]

I haven't read this book or the reviews or all of this thread... but my experience is that self published authors are generally way too involved in their product after release. When you're working with a publisher you have to gain a bit of distance just to deal with editors and criticism in house. When you self publish it's still your baby... and it hasn't had the professional run down.

 

I don't think it's limited to homeschool topic authors but to self publishers more widely, and those whose topic is intensely personal (writing about their own life) sometimes aren't able to professionally distance themselves from it. Which is frustrating as a reader because book reviews aren't really for the author but for other readers.

 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[KungFuPanda]

The lab thing makes sense. Homeschooling high school can be difficult and expensive. Sometimes options are limited. I’d rather see a homeschooling family use a cc to meet their needs than just skip labs entirely. Our cc has labs for homeschoolers, but if you don’t have the population to support that, you get creative. Cc classes are cheaper than trying to set up your own lab at home.

[Crimson Wife]

I will say this. My 12 year old son was probably more college ready in many ways than that same son is now as he turns 15.

 

Puberty causes (many) people to lose their damn minds.

 

Academically, he may be somewhat better prepared as he’s had more math, developed more as a writer. But his study skills and ability to focus? Have all gone on vacation. He’s grown a foot or so and the intensity of his emotions as about himself as he navigates this period is something that I don’t think would lend itself well to college success.

 

He’s a kid who was definitely competitive for early college admissions programs (for the young scholars program at flagship state U and not community college or the ASU level state schools either) and was actually asked to apply by the director and it was brought up all the time as an option by those at the homeschool program he attended very part time but as his 8th grade year unfolded, I was really glad we had other options. 14 looks so different from 12 for him.

 

So I see why a 14 year old might need a lot of help to go to college. And it’s why I think he will get more out of college a bit later.

 

When I see things that minimize the developmental realities of being a young teen, I tend to put less stock in them.

 

And this is the difference between boys and girls. My oldest DD had to repeat 6th because she was in the worst of the puberty brain fog then but then once she got out the other side of it she was able to skip 8th and go directly to DE at not quite 14. In retrospect, we should've just called that repeated year "7th" but it was not at all clear at the time what she would be ready for 2 years later.

[Crimson Wife]

Oh yes, I was speaking based on my experiences early at college and my husband’s with homeschooling and mixing up what he took and where/when, obviously with all things they change depending on the child. DH is fully on board with skipping high school and sending them to college at 14 if they’re proficient, but having been the 15 year old in a class with a median age of 28 I’m not so comfortable with it for them.

 

We did, however, specifically choose districts with excellent academics and AP options just in case we needed them. My kids keep revolting when I suggest we quit homeschool but maybe that will change. I’m not against them taking classes while living at home (remember I entered homeschool doing Robinson curriculum and am still a fan of it!) but for the sake of maturity and broader subject exposure I’m less in favor of skipping or truncating high school the longer I do this gig. I lean more toward an interest led set of subjects and experiences outside of core material at that age, even if the interest is a small business or certification or whatever, than just trying to get them to complete their bachelors as early as possible. If they’re able and willing we will support them in that, but in order to fulfil their personal longer term goals, not just to eject them as fast as possible.

 

Hubby would have skipped high school and self studied along with college, and resents being forced to slow down on things that didn’t bring him closer to his goals. I did accelerate and would have probably benefited from broader and more passion based academics than what happened, which was being tossed into the deep end of the pond.

 

In the end it really does depend on the kids. That would be why I’m a Robinson mommy who teaches my kids with Rightstart, Trail Guide to Learning, Treasured Conversations, and the like. My kids missed the memo that I only wanted to teach the way I, personally, learn :lol:

 

That would've required us having a million dollars more to spend on a house than we have. It's really quite sad that public schools here are so mediocre academically and many of them have problems with gangs. :(

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

And this is the difference between boys and girls. My oldest DD had to repeat 6th because she was in the worst of the puberty brain fog then but then once she got out the other side of it she was able to skip 8th and go directly to DE at not quite 14. In retrospect, we should've just called that repeated year "7th" but it was not at all clear at the time what she would be ready for 2 years later.

 

This actually describes my son.  In 6th if you would have told me he would be at the CC next year I would have told you no way he seems to have regressed.  By 7th it was a completely different story.

[LucyStoner]

And this is the difference between boys and girls. My oldest DD had to repeat 6th because she was in the worst of the puberty brain fog then but then once she got out the other side of it she was able to skip 8th and go directly to DE at not quite 14. In retrospect, we should've just called that repeated year "7th" but it was not at all clear at the time what she would be ready for 2 years later.

Yes, puberty hits at different times for different kids and in general it’s earlier for girls.

[mommaduck]

IMO, it sounds like the person that got smart with Mergath on the reviews has an issue with her HERE and took it there, because they didn't want to say it here. Sheesh. 

 

[Mergath]

IMO, it sounds like the person that got smart with Mergath on the reviews has an issue with her HERE and took it there, because they didn't want to say it here. Sheesh.

And I'm guessing it probably has more to do with politics than book reviews or grammar. That's a LOT of anger over the occasional dangling participle or unnecessary comma. That's a lot of anger over politics too, but that makes a little more sense than a stranger getting worked up over a review for a self-published ebook.

[maize]

This actually describes my son. In 6th if you would have told me he would be at the CC next year I would have told you no way he seems to have regressed. By 7th it was a completely different story.

This gives me hope for my current 6th grader...

[maize]

Is it bad that thinking about this thread has actually made me want to write a book about education?

I've even got a title in mind.

 

Time to write would be another matter entirely...

[kiana]

It did seem way over the top, given the actual content of your comment. Maybe it was his mama coming to his defense?!

 

Or his alternate email account. 

[theelfqueen]

Makes me want to watch the "Hey BUZZ!" scene where Woody is holding Buzz's dismembered arm in Toy Story 1

 

[SeaConquest]

Thank you, Mergath and Corraleno for your excellent reviews and this enjoyable kerfluffle. The author sounds like a mansplaining tool.

[MedicMom]

I’m having an incredibly stressful few weeks and really enjoyed this kerfluffle. Thank you.

[Bluegoat]

I didn't read the entire book, but from what I did read, my take-away was that the parents wanted their kids to have access to lab sciences in high school, and the public high school wouldn't let their kids take the classes there, so the parents enrolled them in college classes instead.

 

 

As far as editing the kids' writing ..maybe the parents felt that it was easier to have someone else come up with the writing assignments and have their kids have deadlines imposed by someone else. However, the parents wanted to provide their kids with additional individual attention and instruction than they would have received otherwise.

I guess I fall into the perfectionist category because I also would have worked with my kids at that age if I felt their writing needed work. It would not be about the grade, but about making sure they developed strong writing skills.

 

It seems to me that the parents were considering these college classes as their kids' high school years and had plans for all of them to continue their educations elsewhere after getting their bachelors.

 

 

These kids all went on to prestigious universities for graduate school, so this approach seems to have worked well for this family.

 

I can easily see how they ended up sending them there - but I'm not sure that it's ok to go ahead and use an outside class just as if it's part of your homeschool.  If they wanted just the lab instruction, could they not have taught English longer at home until the kids were ready?

[unsinkable]

I didn't read the entire book, but from what I did read, my take-away was that the parents wanted their kids to have access to lab sciences in high school, and the public high school wouldn't let their kids take the classes there, so the parents enrolled them in college classes instead.

 

 

As far as editing the kids' writing ..maybe the parents felt that it was easier to have someone else come up with the writing assignments and have their kids have deadlines imposed by someone else. However, the parents wanted to provide their kids with additional individual attention and instruction than they would have received otherwise.

I guess I fall into the perfectionist category because I also would have worked with my kids at that age if I felt their writing needed work. It would not be about the grade, but about making sure they developed strong writing skills.

 

It seems to me that the parents were considering these college classes as their kids' high school years and had plans for all of them to continue their educations elsewhere after getting their bachelors.

 

 

These kids all went on to prestigious universities for graduate school, so this approach seems to have worked well for this family.

This is from the section about writing that Kinsa posted:

 

"We worked one-on-one with each child. If necessary, we went through each line of each essay to point out what was good, what did not make sense, what was missing, or what could be eliminated. We would then have the child rewrite the paper…"

 

I think people have interpreted it various ways. But to me, it doesn't mean the kids weren't ready for College Writing.

 

They said "if necessary." So it wasn't always necessary. They said each line of each essay, not every, just if necessary. They pointed out...they didn't change it themselves. Then the kid rewrote the essay.

 

Even in the most basic proofreading for punctuation errors and spelling errors, you have to go line by line and read the paper.

Edited March 6, 2018 by unsinkable

[snowbeltmom]

I can easily see how they ended up sending them there - but I'm not sure that it's ok to go ahead and use an outside class just as if it's part of your homeschool.  If they wanted just the lab instruction, could they not have taught English longer at home until the kids were ready?

Why couldn't they use an outside class as part of their homeschool? What is wrong with that?   How do you know that the kids were not ready to take English at the college?  Just because the parents reviewed the writing assignments does not necessarily mean that the kids were not prepared for their college English classes.  

 

I have outsourced many of my kids' classes for various reasons.  I am sure this family had their reasons for outsourcing English just like many of us have our own reasons unique to our families for outsourcing various subjects.  

 

I have been outsourcing writing instruction for my kids since they were 10 years old and can definitely understand why a family would want to outsource English in addition to the lab instruction.  

[Corraleno]

There's no mystery as to why they were outsourcing English, first to the admittedly mediocre online high school and then to the CC comp classes: they were just checking boxes on the fast track to an engineering degree by 18. They were not doing it in order to access deeper, more rigorous coursework than they could provide at home. They explicitly say that they were just trying to meet the bare minimum English requirements for HS and college graduation. They even required all the kids to take Comp 101 & 102 during the highly condensed summer sessions, to "eliminate any fluff" and get it over with as quickly as possible. Then that was the end of English classes — at age 14.

[Bluegoat]

Why couldn't they use an outside class as part of their homeschool? What is wrong with that?   How do you know that the kids were not ready to take English at the college?  Just because the parents reviewed the writing assignments does not necessarily mean that the kids were not prepared for their college English classes.  

 

I have outsourced many of my kids' classes for various reasons.  I am sure this family had their reasons for outsourcing English just like many of us have our own reasons unique to our families for outsourcing various subjects.  

 

I have been outsourcing writing instruction for my kids since they were 10 years old and can definitely understand why a family would want to outsource English in addition to the lab instruction.  

 

You can outsource, but then you have to treat the class according to the nature of the institution.

 

You can run assignments and tests any way you want at home.  At an accredited institution where you are receiving something more than the parental stamp of approval, you don't get to do that.  You follow the rules that make the accreditation of value.  

 

You also shouldn't be using the institution for your own ends in a way that compromises the goals and mission of the institution.

 

And when there are other students taking the courses, you don't get to do whatever your parents say is ok and screw things up for the others who don't get to do the same things.

[maize]

There's no mystery as to why they were outsourcing English, first to the admittedly mediocre online high school and then to the CC comp classes: they were just checking boxes on the fast track to an engineering degree by 18. They were not doing it in order to access deeper, more rigorous coursework than they could provide at home. They explicitly say that they were just trying to meet the bare minimum English requirements for HS and college graduation. They even required all the kids to take Comp 101 & 102 during the highly condensed summer sessions, to "eliminate any fluff" and get it over with as quickly as possible. Then that was the end of English classes — at age 14.

And...I never took a math class past what those kids would have mastered by age 14. Never took any at all in college.

 

Can you please explain to me why this family is meeting condemnation for not studying English past that level?

 

They went way past where most people do in Math.

 

They also went well past the level of training most kids get in music.

 

The kids went on to do interesting things including extended time overseas and graduate degrees from excellent schools.

 

I find the condemnation of their handling of English studies in this thread very odd.

 

I get that the tone of the book could be a turn off but some people seem to be reacting with an intensity of criticism that seems better suited in my mind to folks who starve their kids or fail to educate them at all.

[Bluegoat]

And...I never took a math class past what those kids would have mastered by age 14. Never took any at all in college.

 

Can you please explain to me why this family is meeting condemnation for not studying English past that level?

 

They went way past where most people do in Math.

 

They also went well past the level of training most kids get in music.

 

The kids went on to do interesting things including extended time overseas and graduate degrees from excellent schools.

 

I find the condemnation of their handling of English studies in this thread very odd.

 

I get that the tone of the book could be a turn off but some people seem to be reacting with an intensity of criticism that seems better suited in my mind to folks who starve their kids or fail to educate them at all.

 

It's the attitude, on several levels.

 

Being very self-congratulatory about basic competence.

 

The sense that the class was mainly a hoop and that language study doesn't have the potential for real depth.

 

The sense that the students were short-changed in terms of the opportunities offered.

[unsinkable]

And...I never took a math class past what those kids would have mastered by age 14. Never took any at all in college.

 

Can you please explain to me why this family is meeting condemnation for not studying English past that level?

 

They went way past where most people do in Math.

 

They also went well past the level of training most kids get in music.

 

The kids went on to do interesting things including extended time overseas and graduate degrees from excellent schools.

 

I find the condemnation of their handling of English studies in this thread very odd.

 

I get that the tone of the book could be a turn off but some people seem to be reacting with an intensity of criticism that seems better suited in my mind to folks who starve their kids or fail to educate them at all.

I don't agree with or admire how the family handled some aspects of the kids' education but the English classes as described in the quote on this thread aren't one of the aspects with which I disagree.I

 

Edited because I'm doing English wrong.

Edited March 7, 2018 by unsinkable

[maize]

It's the attitude, on several levels.

 

Being very self-congratulatory about basic competence.

 

The sense that the class was mainly a hoop and that language study doesn't have the potential for real depth.

 

The sense that the students were short-changed in terms of the opportunities offered.

Self congratulation is admittedly annoying.

 

I guess I'm thinking that every path has an opportunity cost. Sometimes we are not aware of the cost. Sometimes we are aware and choose to accept it.

 

Those kids lost some opportunities; they also gained some--including the opportunity to get good graduate education at a relatively young age.

 

I will say that years of schooling also has an opportunity cost; the number of years some paths would have taken post high school played a significant part in my choice not to pursue them. For young people looking to start and support a family--maybe even a large family--that is not an inconsequential consideration and getting a jump start on some of the longer paths does have advantages.

[nixpix5]

And if it works for them, great. It's the part where he wants to sell his book about getting his kids college-ready by fourteen when they weren't college-ready by fourteen that I have a problem with. And the part where he gets upset if anyone points that out. ;)

Well if we are going off writing abilities for college readiness we would have to throw out a huge swath of typical age college students. Many enter college who are not ready for writing 101. Most community colleges do entry testing and place a student lower if need be. A parent cannot take that test for their student so if a student places in 101 then so be it.

 

They are successful and productive. I say that's a win. He does say right out of the gate that his methods aren't for everyone. I think his tone in writing is what I call "the engineer/scientist" tone. I have to be careful not to fall into it myself. We are taught in our doctoral programs to write a specific way and it is with a level of authority that sounds condescending. It becomes second nature. Have you read any scientific journals lately? Only those of us in the field mind them exciting. Everyone else waits for the cliff notes. They are dry. He may not even be aware of it. I have 5 kids 6-25yo and I am a super snuggly mama and I don't pressure my kids. Yet I think sometimes I come across harsh in the way I communicate due to my days being brainwashed in the sciences :) see...I add smilies so I don't offend people

 

There method is not for me, but there is a danger in assuming ill intent in someone's methods because they differ from us. Your own children are so young and your not in the trenches of the teen years. I have been in those trenches and I sit in awe that they successfully got all of those kids through it successfully. It isn't for the faint of heart.

 

I commend their focus on math and wish more people put focus in math and sciences. We have a plethora of people making decisions in this country who do not truly understand science or how it is done or what it truly shows. They themselves haven't really had adequate training. People often giggle when they say "oh I was terrible in math"...or "I was terrible in science" and that seems to be accepted in our culture. Being illiterate or a poor written communicator is met with less patience.That floors me.

 

I love the liberal arts but I think we need to hold math and science with the same esteem. Nobody bats an eye to a Charlotte Mason education rich in literature. As parents we all are making judgment calls and choices for our kids.

 

Now, him responding to your review is a bit crazy in my opinion. The only way I could see someone feeling the need to do that is if the person leaving a review tends to review in extremes. Meaning...only ever leaving 1 star or 5 with no measured, true reviews that fall in the middle. Those reviewers seem to leave reviews based on emotions. Someone may try to reply in that case to balance what they view to be an unfair review or an extreme. Businesses do this on YELP. Since I don't see that being you based on your intelligent posts, I will say that his response sounds controlling and out of the ordinary.