Would you be bothered? Extravagant friends

[Scarlett]

I answered this queston when I said they are 98% fine. I doubt I have any friends who value exactly what I value and dislike all the things I dislike.

 

 

Exactly.  I have a best friend since childhood who ended up in the last 10 years super super wealthy.  I mean like they own a jet wealthy.  So it has been an experience remaining friends with her because although they are still wonderful people who love me and I love them....that kind of wealth does change people.  I am actually glad to be living several hours away.  

[QueenCat]

Right, but there are several posters in this thread who seem to believe they have a better handle on what this family does and why than I do. There are posters assuming negative things of me, while assuming positive things about the other famliy.

 

I don't think your view is negative. I doubt I'd let my kids go on a vacation with another family at that age, but at 15-16, yes, IF it's a family I trust. The little activities, that are a one-day thing, sure.... 

[QueenCat]

Your point escapes me.

 

This thread is not a rant against wealth. It’s not an assumption that no one should have nice things or do enjoyable things with their money. For twenty years, I have recognized that the ability to live on one income is itself a fantastic luxury. I live a life that is fantastically comfortable compared to how I grew up.

 

I did not say or mean that ALL people who grow up with perks will be selfish jerks.

 

You didn't make it about wealth. Others did, and it was offensive.

[gardenmom5]

I answered this queston when I said they are 98% fine. I doubt I have any friends who value exactly what I value and dislike all the things I dislike.

 

so - they're 1% selfish and 1% entitled?  they why even mention it?

[Scarlett]

so - they're 1% selfish and 1% entitled?  they why even mention it?

 

 

Not Quill but I assume because it was bugging her when she posted.  A post she probably now regrets.   :tongue_smilie:

Edited November 29, 2017 by Scarlett

[SeaConquest]

Personally, even for people whose love language is giving, there's manners. And it's impolite to gargantuantly outspend the recipient's possible gift in return.

 

I feel like, in the stampede of wealthy people whose feelings are hurt, we didn't really listen to a post Marbel made about how uncomfortable it feels to be the recipient of largesse, the extent of which you can't even approximately return.

 

Again, I think this really is a matter of personal opinion/preference. The friends I mentioned earlier, that recently sold their company for $$$$$, invited us to a week-long vacation with them. The house is costing them about 100k for the week. It's a surprise bday for the wife, includes a chef, butler, etc. There's no way we could ever reciprocate a gift like this. Was it rude of them to offer it to middle class friends? Again, we're close friends -- less than 15 people were invited. Should they only invite their wealthy friends? Frankly, I'm super stoked to be on the guest list to experience some place amazing with people we care about, and who care about us so much as to give so generously. Not a single bone in my body feels guilty about it. We've been friends through some tough times. That money didn't come for free; it was hard won. And we were there to support them through all of it. What is so wrong with enjoying the fruits of your labor now with your friends and loved ones? Isn't that kinda the point? Edited November 29, 2017 by SeaConquest

[amy g.]

I would phrase that “how uncomfortable it feels TO SOME PEOPLE to be the recipient of largesse, the extent of which you can't even approximately return.â€

 

A friend called once wanting to do a big financial thing for one of my kids. She prefaced it by saying, “I hope I’m not out of line. I know money can change relationships. I’m completely fine if you say no. I just really trust that you know what is in my heart and why I would like to do this.â€

 

I laughed and told her that I knew exactly what she meant because I often did such things for other kids on a much smaller scale, but I know that feeling that says “Why should this kid who I love have to struggle when when I wouldn’t even notice the cost of taking care of this for him.â€

 

I told her that I’d talk to Dh and be in touch.

 

On the way to talk to Dh, I saw the kid in question and said, â€Guess who just called with a proposition?†She said “Let me know what Dad’s instincts are about it.†It never occurred to me to not tell her about the offer.

 

I was quite surprised when Dh was hesitant to accept. I asked him if he thought there were strings attached. He admitted that he didn’t. I asked if he was worried it might have a negative outcome for Dd. He admitted that he didn’t.

 

I asked him how it was any different (other than scale) from anything we have done for other people’s kids. He admitted that it wasn’t.

 

I assured him that Dd and I were fine with whatever he wanted to do. We trusted his judgement, but for me, I can’t think why it is fine to do for others and not allow others to do for you other than plain old pride.

 

Later, when he had time to think it over, he agreed that the only issue was his pride. He wasn’t going to let that cost Dd an opportunity.

 

So this happened and the relationships have gone on just as before. Dd and I feel no discomfort about it at all even though there is no way we will ever be able to repay this. It isn’t meant to be repaid. It is a gift. Sometimes the loving thing to do is to allow people to give to you.

 

I’m not at all saying that pride is why Quill doesn’t want her son to accept the trip. Safety concerns or even just not feeling at peace about it are reason enough.

 

But I take issue with the statement that all people feel uncomfortable when they can not reciprocate a gift. Most people give with no thought or expectation or desire to be repaid in kind. They just want to share some of the bounty they have been blessed with with the people they love.

 

There isn’t a huge problem in this world of too many people sharing.

 

Isolation is far more common that inclusion.

 

I think this is part of why such a seemingly benign post has prompted such strong reactions.

Edited November 29, 2017 by amy g.

[Lisa R.]

 

 

 

 

 

There isn’t a huge problem in this world of too many people sharing.

 

Isolation is far more common that inclusion.

 

I think this is part of why such a seemingly benign post has prompted such strong reactions.

Excellent points.

[TravelingChris]

I don't have any issues with going to wealthier people's places or houses of lower income people.  If someone invites me, I go.  Both in homeschooling groups  and in the churches I attended, there were wide income differences in who attended.   For the most part, I didn't see much lording over others.  Yes, occasionally I did run across a rude person who had some beef-either with looking down on misfortune or jealousy over good fortune.  But I stayed away from such people.  I know one lady who seems to resent me for some reason and I am not sure exactly why but I think in general she is a very unhappy person and seems bitter about what life has given her ( a mentally ill child who is not doing well).  I am not sure what she thinks my life is like (how about three kids with serious medical issues) and it doesn't seem like I am the only one she resents.  I have noticed that the bitter people don't have more on their plates than the non bitter. 

[KungFuPanda]

ðŸ¿

[Ausmumof3]

That doesn't seem overly extravagant to me. There are different levels of wealth that I think people are grouping as one. the level she's talking about and I gave examples of were extremely wealthy.

 

I just went to a 1-year old's birthday party that had a petting zoo and pony. That was more than I would do, but I also understand that's a cultural thing. Not judgey at all. I've been to bouncy house parties and laser tag parties. Parties with face painters and clowns. Never gave it a second thought.

We've done the at home traditional parties with a nice BBQ or home cooked meal plus games with prizes and party bags and a cake and decorations. I suspect they cost more than a going out/destination party would when I add it all up.

[8circles]

There is no rephrasing necessary because Marbel's comment was that "it can be uncomfortable". 

[amy g.]

 

 

 

 

 

I feel like, in the stampede of wealthy people whose feelings are hurt, we didn't really listen to a post Marbel made about how uncomfortable it feels to be the recipient of largesse, the extent of which you can't even approximately return.

 

I was referring to this post which most definitely does not say can.

Edited November 30, 2017 by amy g.

[OrganicJen]

I'm actually not sure how I'd feel if I were in the OP's situation. When I was a teen and we went on ski trips we invited our friend's/neighbors kids along and I think their parents probably gave my mom some money for lift tickets etc. but I'm not sure. One of the kids did his own thing but the other kid, his sister, and I were friends and skiid together which was way more fun for me. I think the general feeling was that we were going and they liked to ski too so why not bring them along especially since We had fun together. We all had fun and so I think I would let my kid go do that type of thing with a friend's family too. But I also can see that it could feel weird for a parent letting their kid go do something with another family like that when they could never do it with their own family. I would probably be okay letting my kiddo go (this is hypothetical since he's special needs and never really could be away from us). I don't think it would make a child become entitled or to think their best memories were with another family. In a way I would think it would be more like going to a fun camp away from home or something...where the kids go away to camp so they are doing all that fun camp stuff with other kids and counselors, but it doesn't change their views on the times they spend with their family.

[eternalsummer]

I respect your belief about where the line falls in what is unacceptable consumerism and what is acceptable consumerism, but I don't know that I share it.  I know that most of us (all of us?), thrown into a society where food and running water and health care are not only not guaranteed but difficult to obtain, would look like excessive consumers, with our eating more than we need to survive, eating for pleasure instead of nutrition, driving places we could walk, educating kids beyond that which is practical and necessary for the function of their lives, etc.

[Alicia64]

I'm with you, OP.

 

One time a friend decorated Easter eggs w/ her kids and mine without telling me in advance. I thought, "Excuse me, I wanted that experience to be with me. Not you."

 

At the same time, I get her not getting it. These people may not get that they're infringing.

 

Alley

[8circles]

 

 

 

 

 

I feel like, in the stampede of wealthy people whose feelings are hurt, we didn't really listen to a post Marbel made about how uncomfortable it feels to be the recipient of largesse, the extent of which you can't even approximately return.

 

I was referring to this post which most definitely does not say can.

 

But she was referring to marbel's post which does.

[8circles]

lol, my paraphrase was imperfect.

 

Yeah, work on that.  ;)

[SeaConquest]

Just me, but actually I wouldn't take part in something like this, even for family or a best friend.

 

I think spending 100k on someone's birthday is obscene. Quill was talking about family values; well, actually, one of our values is that out of control consumerism is not OK, so it's unlikely I'd want my kids in that environment, 

 

Is it rude for them to invite their 'poorer' friends ? Idk. I do know I would feel very uncomfortable about it.

 

There are less extreme examples we could probably discuss :)

 

The island just suffered massive damage from hurricanes this past season, and is completely dependent upon tourism, so I am totally fine spending obscene money there. If that makes me lacking in family values, so be it, but that obscene money puts food on the table in many homes. 

[SeaConquest]

Maybe.

 

I still think spending 100k on someone's birthday is a level of consumerism I don't want to be around, nor do I want my kids to be around it.

 

And just to clarify, we won't be bringing the kids along. We already live in a beachy tourist area, so I doubt they would get much out of the vacation. Also, in contrast to Quill, I don't find being around my kids (ages 4 and 8) very relaxing at present, so I am perfectly happy to leave them with the grandparents (visiting from Quebec for the winter).

[fraidycat]

Isn’t the economy dependant on consumerism?

 

Like, somebody’s gotta buy the new stuff before it can become secondhand for frugal shoppers to scoop up at the thrift store and whatnot.

 

Travel employs many people in transportation, accomodation, food service, fuel, auto/airline industry, rubber hose factory, etc.

 

If we want people to have good paying jobs, we have to pay for those jobs to exist.

[SeaConquest]

It doesn't make you lacking in family values; it makes it incompatible with mine. And that would be a reason for me to say no.

 

Quill feels like 1. her son is seen as a convenience as much as anything.

                        2. this trip is too ostentatious for her and her family values.

                        3. she wants to do things with her kids that fit her family values

                        4. she doesn't want her ds to think these huge trips are any kind of norm

                        5. she doesn't think he's old enough to be off on a water trip without more trustworthy supervision.

 

 

All good reasons, imo, to say no. Your example related to 2 & 3. For you, it's OK. It fits in with your vaues. Sure. But that doesn't mean it fits in with everyone's values, and that anyone is being deprived when they make decisions in alignment with that fact.

 

In other words, Quill can say no, and that's perfectly OK, and no, her son isn't deprived and she isn't some class envying monster. 

 

Just to be clear, I never said that Quill's son was being deprived or that Quill was a class-envying monster.

 

I said that it seems she is having a tough go of things and that she may have some issues in this area (e.g. envy) that she might want to consider working through. She brought up both of these points in her previous posts.

 

I brought up most of my points in response to other thoughts in the thread, and I quoted people where appropriate. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by SeaConquest

[eternalsummer]

I think it's fine for Quill to say no; I think it's a bit ridiculous for her to judge another family as elitist and show-offy and "don't they know how to take a family vacation?" and etc. just because they spend more money than she does on things she doesn't spend money on.

 

I think it's perfectly fine to say, I don't believe in spending money on these things and I don't want my kids around people who spend money on these things - heck, I do that with electronics to a degree as we don't believe in owning/using small electronic devices (although I don't keep the kids away from people who do it, because then we'd never see anyone).  I even, in the privacy of my own thoughts (normally) say to myself, people who spend money on these things (smartphones, etc.) are misguided or valuing the wrong things or sleepwalking or stupid.

 

So I guess I understand the tendency to judge other people based on how they spend their money - but I don't extrapolate that to a personal thing; that is to say, I don't think they're trying to show off or show me up or teach me that small electronics are great and I'm less than for not using them or whatever.  I just think they want different things than I want, is all.

[SeaConquest]

Isn’t the economy dependant on consumerism?

 

Like, somebody’s gotta buy the new stuff before it can become secondhand for frugal shoppers to scoop up at the thrift store and whatnot.

 

Travel employs many people in transportation, accomodation, food service, fuel, auto/airline industry, rubber hose factory, etc.

 

If we want people to have good paying jobs, we have to pay for those jobs to exist.

 

I'm not even touching the issues of historical colonialization, which have raped many of these islands of their natural resources and rendered them dependent on tourism today. That is a whole other topic. And I don't know if this is partially Sadie's concern, but I can understand and appreciate the sensitivities around non-natives spending obscene amounts of money on island, and the argument that the high cost of living on island simply perpetuates a system of oppression to natives. On balance, however, I am not really sure how to change that system, and have seen first-hand how much locals suffer when tourists don't come (I saw this living in a tourist area of Mexico that had been hit hard by American impressions that it was a dangerous place; people suffered greatly when the American dollars stopped flowing to the area). So, perhaps, I am just throwing my hands up in the air, but I really don't know how to change things for native populations. That is very far outside of my area of expertise, and probably beyond the scope of this conversation.    

[SeaConquest]

Eh, I don't pick up envy.

 

I think envy is a word chucked around to make it seem like Quill's personal issue. Perhaps we could take her - a long time poster - at her word - these people are, perhaps, the tacky kind. Tackiness does exist, even at elite levels.

 

From her OP:

 

"I am also just jealous that they can not only do a trip like this for their family, something I have wanted to do always, but that they can also just tack on two extra kids so their own kids will have a constant friend at all times. I feel like they are out-classing us, or showing us up, in a way." 

[SeaConquest]

Well, sure, capitalism depends on comsumerism.

 

Why would you suppose that my family values include robust support for capitalism ?! :)

 

$100K could go a long way chucked into any other public good. 

 

They are extremely generous philanthropically as well. It isn't an either/or, IMHO.

[eternalsummer]

The only evidence she's given of their tackiness, though, is that they like to spend money on vacations and their kids, and that they like to invite their kids' friends over frequently (and often if one kid has a friend over, they invite over the other kid's friend).  She has implied, even stated directly, that those things - the spending on vacations and travel sports and the inviting the kids' friends over frequently - are elitist and tacky and show-offy and "too child-centered."

 

I dispute that those things, separate of some other behavior, are tacky.  I think they're normal.  I think most people in this society go on vacations commensurate with their income level, put their kids in sports or activities commensurate with their income level and their kids interests, and invite their kids' friends over for sleepovers and sometimes to go on vacations.

 

Heck, my parents were poooooor poor and we took my best friend with us to the beach when we went - it was a once in 10 years vacation, and I'm pretty sure my friend's bought her plane ticket to meet us there (we were driving from a different state, as we'd just moved), but we still took her.  My only sister is 6 years younger, I missed my best friend, and my parents probably figured she fit in the car and would share a bed with me in the hotel, it's worth the extra cost.  I dunno.  I just don't think this behavior is limited to rich people; it's just that rich people do it more richly than poor people do it, I guess.

 

As for "too child centered" - what is more child-centered than homeschooling?  We give up entire careers, decades of our lives, to educate kids better than the local public or any private we can afford (or at least that is the plan) - how does that not demonstrate child-centeredness?

[SeaConquest]

I understand you want to defend your friends. 

 

I don't think you are going to change my values around consumption, so let's leave it there. 

 

Pete Singer wrote some interesting stuff on this, though, if you're interested in it further.

 

I am honestly not trying to change your values re consumption. Overall, I think our planet would be a healthier place if more people shared them. I am more just discussing these issues, in part, because it helps me to work out my own views. It's the lawyer in me, I suppose. Sometimes, it even helps others to see their views more clearly.

 

But yes, my friends are good and generous people. Many posters on this board have bought their products, and I do feel compelled to defend them. Again, the lawyer. ;)

 

I will read up on Pete Singer's work. I appreciate the recommendation.

[OrganicJen]

I'm with you, OP.

 

One time a friend decorated Easter eggs w/ her kids and mine without telling me in advance. I thought, "Excuse me, I wanted that experience to be with me. Not you."

 

At the same time, I get her not getting it. These people may not get that they're infringing.

 

Alley

That's interesting, because I wouldn't have thought twice about it. If my kiddo had a friend over and we were doing an activity like decorating eggs I really wouldn't even think to ask if that was okay or think there could be a reason it wasn't. I think it just shows how we all have such different ideas about things and that most likely if a friend does something like that with our kiddo they probably really don't mean to offend but simply to include. I find it interesting reading in this thread what bothers some people and what others find normal.

[Joker]

Now I'm wondering how many parents I might have unknowingly ticked off because we did Easter eggs or Christmas cookies or whatever at our house while they were over. Some of the things brought up here are honestly nothing I would think of - even if it was my dc doing them at someone else's home. We would still do those things together so it wouldn't bother me at all. 

[amy g.]

Now I'm wondering how many parents I might have unknowingly ticked off because we did Easter eggs or Christmas cookies or whatever at our house while they were over. Some of the things brought up here are honestly nothing I would think of - even if it was my dc doing them at someone else's home. We would still do those things together so it wouldn't bother me at all.

I guess there is just no end to what some people manage to be irritated about.

[eternalsummer]

Ack, I was going to have DD12 invite over her 3 closest friends to make Christmas ornaments next weekend.  I wonder if I should clear it with the parents first?  They tend to be fairly free-child people, though.

[OrganicJen]

I think in general I'm just not an easily offended person because my default is to assume people mean well and don't intend to offend me and don't mean any harm, so I guess a lot of things don't really bug me that it sounds like bother other parents. I don't think I take most things personally, I just assume people are living their lives how they choose and aren't spending their time focused on me and what I might think of things, which I don't mind. So I'm sure we've all done something that could have offended someone else but if we mean well and are doing our best I don't think we should overly stress about how other parents may view every little thing we do with or around their kids.

[fraidycat]

I'm not even touching the issues of historical colonialization, which have raped many of these islands of their natural resources and rendered them dependent on tourism today. That is a whole other topic. And I don't know if this is partially Sadie's concern, but I can understand and appreciate the sensitivities around non-natives spending obscene amounts of money on island, and the argument that the high cost of living on island simply perpetuates a system of oppression to natives. On balance, however, I am not really sure how to change that system, and have seen first-hand how much locals suffer when tourists don't come (I saw this living in a tourist area of Mexico that had been hit hard by American impressions that it was a dangerous place; people suffered greatly when the American dollars stopped flowing to the area). So, perhaps, I am just throwing my hands up in the air, but I really don't know how to change things for native populations. That is very far outside of my area of expertise, and probably beyond the scope of this conversation.

I had to leave, so didn’t get to complete my thought process. I agree with you that there is no easy fix or one “right answer†regarding island communities. But the conversation has morphed to encompass all kinds of “extravagant money wasting†activities. Domestic travel can also be “excessiveâ€, yet employs people right here and now in several industries.

 

I was also thinking of the Halloween and birthday party examples. The ice cream truck workers took home paychecks for that work, I assume. So their families got to eat. The petting zoo employees or small business owners probably did not donate their time and resources to the birthday parties. These “extravagances†contributed to those family’s budgets. Caterers, groundskeepers, and so on got paid so the parties could take place.

 

I’m trying to wrap my mind around the mindset that only certain small, frugal, non-extravagant options are “acceptable†and what that looks like on a larger scale.

[eternalsummer]

I had to leave, so didn’t get to complete my thought process. I agree with you that there is no easy fix or one “right answer†regarding island communities. But the conversation has morphed to encompass all kinds of “extravagant money wasting†activities. Domestic travel can also be “excessiveâ€, yet employs people right here and now in several industries.

 

I was also thinking of the Halloween and birthday party examples. The ice cream truck workers took home paychecks for that work, I assume. So their families got to eat. The petting zoo employees or small business owners probably did not donate their time and resources to the birthday parties. These “extravagances†contributed to those family’s budgets. Caterers, groundskeepers, and so on got paid so the parties could take place.

 

I’m trying to wrap my mind around the mindset that only certain small, frugal, non-extravagant options are “acceptable†and what that looks like on a larger scale.

 

 

What I can't understand is why these small, frugal, non-extravagant options are morally acceptable, when their smallness and frugality is only frugal in a relative sense (that is, relative to other people in our social circle or our society); on a global scale, being overweight is extravagant; eating out is extravagant; keeping the house at 70 instead of 65 is extravagant - heck, using the heater at all when you're not in desperate need is extravagant!, homeschooling your kids instead of working and saving the extra $ (or giving it away) is extravagant, having more than one tv, or even one tv, is extravagant Etc.

 

I can see an argument for saying that it is socially improper to spend outside the general limits of your social status, okay.  But to say it is morally wrong to do so because a certain level of consumption is wrong but my level of consumption is definitely fine (even though their extravagance is just relative) - I dunno, I can't get it logically.

 

I can get it emotionally, though.

[Arcadia]

I won’t assume the family was trying to attract attention to their house by having the Ben & Jerry truck parked in front of their home. I live in a gated condo complex and my HOA has rules on where trucks can park so as not to obstruct the flow of traffic inside the complex. I won’t be surprised if the guy who rents the ice cream truck is supposed to host the truck at his driveway or designated parking area.

[fraidycat]

Well, sure, capitalism depends on comsumerism.

 

Why would you suppose that my family values include robust support for capitalism ?! :)

 

$100K could go a long way chucked into any other public good.

How does that $100K come to be, though? It’s not pulled out of thin air. It had to come from somewhere before it can go elsewhere.

 

If capitalistic job creation/retention isn’t for the “public good†via wages paid out of that $100K, giving those wage earners spending power, what does “public good†look like?

 

What is a better economic model that doesn’t rely on consumerism to some degree? Serious question.

Edited November 30, 2017 by fraidycat

[SKL]

I suspect that the inviting friend is on the receiving end of projection.  The 12yo's parents are feeling uncomfortable because they are going to deny their kid an opportunity (partly because they are too proud to accept an expensive gift), and they aren't really sure that's best for the child.  Rather than feel bad about their decision, they find a way to blame the inviter for making them feel uncomfortable.

 

That's the only way I can reconcile the OP's claim that these are nice people but they have evil ulterior motives behind their invitations.

[Corraleno]

I'm with you, OP.

 

One time a friend decorated Easter eggs w/ her kids and mine without telling me in advance. I thought, "Excuse me, I wanted that experience to be with me. Not you."

 

At the same time, I get her not getting it. These people may not get that they're infringing.

 

Alley

 

I don't understand what the other family was "infringing" on — if you wanted to dye eggs with your kids, couldn't you just do another batch at home? What did the other mom take away from you by including your kids in a fun activity?   :confused1:

[creekland]

Just me, but actually I wouldn't take part in something like this, even for family or a best friend.

 

I think spending 100k on someone's birthday is obscene. Quill was talking about family values; well, actually, one of our values is that out of control consumerism is not OK, so it's unlikely I'd want my kids in that environment, 

 

Is it rude for them to invite their 'poorer' friends ? Idk. I do know I would feel very uncomfortable about it.

 

There are less extreme examples we could probably discuss :)

 

I think spending 100K on a birthday is obscene and would never do it ourselves, but I'd have no problem going along on this trip (even with kids) and I'd definitely enjoy it.

 

My kids are at home at expensive resorts or in a backyard tent (or sharing a bedroom).

 

We all get to make our own decisions on how we want to spend money.  We should NOT judge others on their decisions simply because what they enjoy is different from what we enjoy.  That's what we've taught our kids and what we model in our own lives.  We make our own choices with our own money and let others freely do the same.

 

Isn’t the economy dependant on consumerism?

 

Like, somebody’s gotta buy the new stuff before it can become secondhand for frugal shoppers to scoop up at the thrift store and whatnot.

 

Travel employs many people in transportation, accomodation, food service, fuel, auto/airline industry, rubber hose factory, etc.

 

If we want people to have good paying jobs, we have to pay for those jobs to exist.

 

:iagree:

 

I had to leave, so didn’t get to complete my thought process. I agree with you that there is no easy fix or one “right answer†regarding island communities. But the conversation has morphed to encompass all kinds of “extravagant money wasting†activities. Domestic travel can also be “excessiveâ€, yet employs people right here and now in several industries.

 

I was also thinking of the Halloween and birthday party examples. The ice cream truck workers took home paychecks for that work, I assume. So their families got to eat. The petting zoo employees or small business owners probably did not donate their time and resources to the birthday parties. These “extravagances†contributed to those family’s budgets. Caterers, groundskeepers, and so on got paid so the parties could take place.

 

I’m trying to wrap my mind around the mindset that only certain small, frugal, non-extravagant options are “acceptable†and what that looks like on a larger scale.

 

:iagree: again.  Back in the last recession when companies were cancelling their Christmas Parties afraid they'd be seen as "too extravagant," I had friends who worked at those parties - catering, etc.  They were now out a major source of their income.  I guess signing up for Welfare Benefits is preferable to letting the economy work the way it should.

 

Whenever any of us spend money, it goes into the economic system supporting someone.  We use that concept to try to support mom and pop stores and restaurants (over chains with wealthy folks at the top).  We pay for some pricier places, but when doing so, we tip well (always in cash as putting it on the bill doesn't always get to the people it should) knowing that money helps a different segment of folks.  We're not perfect in our choices even with our own preferences, but folks work at Amazon and Walmart too.

 

Unlike Sadie, I don't mind joining others who choose to spend their money in different ways.  We're not into car racing, but my youngest lad went along to them with a friend of his who loved them.  My mom loves casinos.  I see no draw to them, but I've accompanied her a time or two.  We love dog racing.  My mom joins us going there.  I see no problem with the differences among us supporting our planet in the various ways it does as we all make our choices.  One person builds a deck to enjoy their yard.  Another travels.  The variety keeps far more employed than lack of variety would.  It keeps folks from having to sign up for Welfare Benefits instead!

[gardenmom5]

 

Whenever any of us spend money, it goes into the economic system supporting someone.  We use that concept to try to support mom and pop stores and restaurants (over chains with wealthy folks at the top).

 

one thing to keep in mind, many of those "chains" (especially fast food types, including KK) are franchises.  with individual private owners.  yeah, they have to pay their franchise/lisencing fee, but otherwise it is their business.  (and they do vary a bit, at least around here.)

 

that said - I tend to patronize smaller restaurants because they have better food. (even compared to the "not fast food" chain restaurants)

[creekland]

one thing to keep in mind, many of those "chains" (especially fast food types, including KK) are franchises.  with individual private owners.  yeah, they have to pay their franchise/lisencing fee, but otherwise it is their business.  (and they do vary a bit, at least around here.)

 

that said - I tend to patronize smaller restaurants because they have better food. (even compared to the "not fast food" chain restaurants)

 

:iagree:  We know some of them personally.  Those we know earn a nice living off of it and pay for their own expenses and wants from it - just as we do from our income sources.

 

It really takes all sorts of folks with their priorities in spending to keep many of us out of the Welfare Benefits line.

 

Donating to charities like food banks is good, but not at the expense of causing people to need that charity instead of being able to work at their job earning a living.

 

Donating to other charities is also worthy and tends to help fund jobs (museums, health causes, etc). 

 

One should just double check the charity they are donating to unless part of those they like funding are fundraising people themselves (sometimes known as scammers) or highly paid executives of the charity (again, unless that's who one wants to fund with the actual stated cause getting a lesser amount).

[mommyoffive]

I am honestly not trying to change your values re consumption. Overall, I think our planet would be a healthier place if more people shared them. I am more just discussing these issues, in part, because it helps me to work out my own views. It's the lawyer in me, I suppose. Sometimes, it even helps others to see their views more clearly.

 

But yes, my friends are good and generous people. Many posters on this board have bought their products, and I do feel compelled to defend them. Again, the lawyer. ;)

 

I will read up on Pete Singer's work. I appreciate the recommendation.

 

Well now I am curious that is they worked on.

 

I don't think what they are doing is wrong.  It is on the same level of middle class families spending what they do on kiddo birthday parties. 

[Peaceseeker]

Quill, you always seem to start the most interesting threads! I ate some popcorn and sit back and read all the interesting opinions for my nightly entertainment last night. I love these type of threads as long as they don't get personally attacking and whatnot. They really make me think. So thanks for that!

 

I don't have much to offer but wanted to throw out another perspective for some of you on going out for various activities vs staying in. My house is very small and my kids have shared a room for many years. Having more than like, one friend over, is really difficult. Although it is on a farm, it is a working farm and the land right around my house is used for running cattle. I have a busy highway next to me, unfortunately. So not a lot of great places for kids to run and play outside.

 

My kids always want to have friends over just to hang out but it is really tricky in this space. I end up saying, let's go out instead! So I end up being the mom dragging kids all over for entertainment, because I don't have that big sprawling house where they can just hang out. That is what I thought I would have at these ages but it didn't work out like that. So we do other things. Just throwing that out there for some people to consider! My house is too small for even a small family birthday party. We have to go to a restaurant. Friend birthday parties always involve a venue unless it is just one friend sleeping over. And sleeping over is easier than an afternoon playdate because there isn't much room to run outside and at least at night they will chill in a room and watch a movie or something.

 

So even though I am the mom who can take a group to play laser tag or have a fabulous birthday party, it is hard not to be the mom with the big sprawling house where all the kids can just be kids. I definitely see the value in that, and I love it when their friends invite them over just to hang out. I hope their parents don't mind that when I reciprocate, it is generally a going out activity though. It is one of the biggest adjustments to small house living I had to make. 90% of the time the size of my house is a blessing in my life. So much less stress and I do enjoy a smaller space. 10% of the time it has been a real pain in the you know what. I am really feeling it even more now that the kids are hitting ages where they really just want to hang out. In a few years when they fly the coop, I could even go smaller.

[SKL]

There's a good point up there - when we choose which things to be extravagant about, we should probably consider WHO is on the receiving end of our extravagance - both whom we're treating and who gets the benefit of what we're paying.

 

Some extreme examples maybe - first, the folks who clean my house.  That is a luxury if not an extravagance for me.  I have my reasons, but let's get real.  I could clean my own house, I've done it thousands of times and I'm not a quadroplegic.  But the money I pay to have it done is very helpful to those doing the cleaning.  They "need" the money to pay their expenses, which means that they are keeping it circulating through the economy.  A second example, let's say I buy a consumer product whose price is high mainly because of the value of the trademark.  (This would be rare for me, but I have bought some Harry Potter stuff.)  Not automatically wrong, but the next question is - who owns the trademark and what will they do with the profit?  Is it a company that does real profit sharing with all employees?  Do they have ethical business practices?  Do they give a lot to charities that I would be glad to support?

 

As for who is getting treated - well usually it's my own kids nowadays, but in the past I used to do a lot for nonprofits.  I would put on a big party for kids in a residential treatment center.  I would buy "non-necessities" for kids in the "adopt-a-family" program.  Nowadays I arrange for a big birthday cake to be provided for my sponsored students' birthdays.  These are not needed, but there is some value in giving disadvantaged kids "the time of their life" or just showing them that somebody cares for them to be happy.

Edited November 30, 2017 by SKL

[SeaConquest]

Well now I am curious that is they worked on.

 

I don't think what they are doing is wrong. It is on the same level of middle class families spending what they do on kiddo birthday parties.

I'm not anonymous on this board, but I'd feel bad about outing them. They're actually pretty private people and not generally ostentatious at all about their wealth. So, I don't think I should talk about them further. I'm sorry for the bait and switch. I shouldn't have said anything about them at all since I know they wouldn't want people to know about this bday party. Mea culpa.

[underthebridge]

Also, there seems to be a lot of extrapolation that supposes I am saying every child with wealthy parents grows up to be an entitled jerk. I did not say that. Heck, my MIL was “secretly†wealthy all those years, but she also made the kids milk the cows and build their own bikes so they wouldn’t get some crazy notion that things should easily come their way.

 

I’m talking about the way this family is. And I am commenting that they aren’t the only family I see with this sort of lavish focus on the kids. Among a certain segment of people, I see a lot of this. The parents seem to be flaunting the ability to be lavish with their kids. It’s one of the things that I have preferred about my homeschooling community all of these years; that attitude is rarer in homeschooling communities. In the wider affluent community, the flaunting started with who had their kids in Gymboree classes from birth and who had their babies dressed head-to-toe in fancy baby outfits and it continued on up to which travel sports clubs you could be in and what kinds of birthday parties you could do and so on. If others don’t encounter that - well, I guess you don’t. But I saw a lot of it before I found my homeschool niche and I jave seen a lot of it again since my older kids have been in private school.

Hi Quill, it is obvious you have given this a lot of thought and that it is striking a chord with many members here. As our kids get older, we have to come to a point where we decide whether we allow them to spend time with friends and families that we don't really like. Whether your views of this family are justified or not, they are your views and I don't think any amount of opinions here will change that.

 

I have been on both sides of this equation where I have offered other kids opportunities for trips and experiences that they wouldn't ordinarily have and my kids have had experiences that we would never be able to afford or would choose spend money on, so I can sympathize with both viewpoints. I do think that families who spend more lavishly than us are gracious and do appreciate the smaller outings that we reciprocate with. I also *really hope* that our generous offers to other families are received without resentment. I think it's great you are venting here because I would guess you have had these feeling brewing for quite a while and would never say them to this family.

 

Decide if your son's pleasure and happiness from spending time with this family is enough to bite your tongue and allow him to continue to go on outings. The one attribute you can say about this family is that they are generous with their wallet and their time! And in general, I find that although comparisons are inevitable, thinking too much about what other people have and how they spend it, is a sure way to unhappiness and resentment. There is always someone with more than us, unless we are Jeff Bezos.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

If doing holiday traditions with OPKs who happen to be over while we're doing holiday traditions, is now an offense land mine, I am so glad my kids are older now. Holy cow. I can't tell you how upset I would be if somebody was jealous and offended that their child participated in our holiday activities.

 

Is this part of Instagram parenting? Somebody else stole the child's initial look of pure wonder at Easter eggs that was supposed to belong on Mom's holiday photo shoot? Because that, or even an IRL version of it where the parent is jealous over all the "moments" their child is ever supposed to experience, is not normal, healthy parental love. That's ownership. That's control.

[8circles]

If doing holiday traditions with OPKs who happen to be over while we're doing holiday traditions, is now an offense land mine, I am so glad my kids are older now. Holy cow. I can't tell you how upset I would be if somebody was jealous and offended that their child participated in our holiday activities.

 

Is this part of Instagram parenting? Somebody else stole the child's initial look of pure wonder at Easter eggs that was supposed to belong on Mom's holiday photo shoot? Because that, or even an IRL version of it where the parent is jealous over all the "moments" their child is ever supposed to experience, is not normal, healthy parental love. That's ownership. That's control.

 

Yeah, I'm confused by those comments as well. I think this thread has well moved on.

[BarbecueMom]

If doing holiday traditions with OPKs who happen to be over while we're doing holiday traditions, is now an offense land mine, I am so glad my kids are older now. Holy cow. I can't tell you how upset I would be if somebody was jealous and offended that their child participated in our holiday activities.

 

Is this part of Instagram parenting? Somebody else stole the child's initial look of pure wonder at Easter eggs that was supposed to belong on Mom's holiday photo shoot? Because that, or even an IRL version of it where the parent is jealous over all the "moments" their child is ever supposed to experience, is not normal, healthy parental love. That's ownership. That's control.

My mom would have been upset over the eggs thing, too. I'm not sure how much was jealousy (I'm sure there's that - especially when it came to my father), a single working mother already missing a ton of important moments in her kids' lives, and how much is spectrum-ish rigidity in This Is How Things Are Done At Holidays. She really tries to be understanding when people get sick or have to work on actual holidays, but I can tell she's fighting back almost an anxiety attack when Thanksgiving isn't Turkey Dinner at Two, or someone's missing from Christmas Eve dinner, or something gets unwrapped out of order or forgotten. I can see her suppressing the inner-child tantrum.

 

So with the eggs, she'd have the picture in her head of how the coloring would go, and then someone else came along and turned her picture all topsy turvy. It's really taken 55+ years to figure out coping skills to deal with these things appropriately 90% of the time.

 

As a child, I would have never told her we colored eggs at someone else's house. As an adult, I let her do eggs with my kids because I don't want to!