Middle-school student manhandled for opting out of the Pledge

[Tangerine]

I also find it a little odd that if the Pledge is to be taken so seriously, why people wouldn't want children to reach some sort of age of understanding before reciting it.

[Guest]

I also find it a little odd that if the Pledge is to be taken so seriously, why people wouldn't want children to reach some sort of age of understanding before reciting it.

None of my kids, to my knowledge, have ever recited the pledge and that's exactly our reasoning.

[rose]

I will never say a pledge of allegiance to anyone besides God and I teach my children to do likewise. I actually consider doing so to be a form of idolatry. I think that people here need to recognize that patriotism to any degree goes fundamentally against some people's religions. For me, I feel like my true identity is with the Kingdom of God. My fellow citizens are those you are also bringing themselves under the rule of Jesus. My present physical nationality is just by happenstance. I can respect that it's a decent country and appreciate the peace here without wholly allying myself with it. Most people would not expect a foreigner to swear the pledge (I'm assuming), why can't people here choose to consider themselves foreigners as well? Isn't the next logical step to forbid emigration, like N. Korea?

 

Suggesting that if you don't like the pledge then you should stay out of the schools is not much different than suggesting that if you don't like the pledge then you should just leave the country. The gov't and tax money goes to provide much more than schools. They provide safety, roads, employment, security, etc. Should someone who refuses the pledge also abstain from accessing any of those services?

[goldberry]

You may also have the right to leave the room (don't quote me on that one), but you legally can not be compelled to leave or "come in late" during Pledge of Allegiance time.

 

I had an elementary teacher try to make me stand out in the hallway during the pledge.  You can guess the effect that had on how the rest of the class viewed me.  Those in power can choose to educate or to inflame.  A teacher treating this respectfully passes that idea onward.  A teacher like the one in the OP inflames the rest of the class with the idea that this is so horrible that those in authority have a right to be mad about it.  

 

Which is why the response of authority to the NFL situation is so important.  If leaders came out to say that, whether they disagreed or not, it did not mean these people "hate America", then it's an opportunity to make people think about it.  Instead.... well... our most important leader chose to bolster his popularity, without caring if it would increase division or incite hatred. 

 

(Side note, my mom did take care of the above situation pretty quickly! ;) )

[Scarlett]

I had an elementary teacher try to make me stand out in the hallway during the pledge.  You can guess the effect that had on how the rest of the class viewed me.  Those in power can choose to educate or to inflame.  A teacher treating this respectfully passes that idea onward.  A teacher like the one in the OP inflames the rest of the class with the idea that this is so horrible that those in authority have a right to be mad about it.  

 

Which is why the response of authority to the NFL situation is so important.  If leaders came out to say that, whether they disagreed or not, it did not mean these people "hate America", then it's an opportunity to make people think about it.  Instead.... well... our most important leader chose to bolster his popularity, without caring if it would increase division or incite hatred. 

 

(Side note, my mom did take care of the above situation pretty quickly! ;) )

 

 

This is exactly the kind of escalation you were talking about in the other thread...I saw the same thing in Russia....once the government ruled JWs 'extreme' the general population felt much more free to persecute and harrass JWs.  

[Lady Florida.]

It's not even like the Supreme Court decision was recent.  It was decided in 1943.

 

Yep. That was even before "under God" was added - not that that's necessarily relevant but I was just using it as a reference to how long ago it was.

[Lady Florida.]

Just to clarify, you legally have the right to sit or stand quietly while other people say the Pledge..

 

The JW student I had used to stand quietly. I told him it was okay to sit but he chose to stand. I did have to explain to the rest of the class why he didn't recite it because they were starting to harass him over it. We had a little impromptu lesson in civics even though that wasn't what I taught. I also explained to them that no one had to say the pledge, that the choice not to didn't have to be religious. I was fortunate (or actually my JW student was fortunate) that they were a good group of kids who, once they understood, left him alone.

[goldberry]

The JW student I had used to stand quietly. I told him it was okay to sit but he chose to stand. I did have to explain to the rest of the class why he didn't recite it because they were starting to harass him over it. We had a little impromptu lesson in civics even though that wasn't what I taught. I also explained to them that no one had to say the pledge, that the choice not to didn't have to be religious. I was fortunate (or actually my JW student was fortunate) that they were a good group of kids who, once they understood, left him alone.

 

It wasn't all "fortune" though, you contributed to that outcome by being proactive in explaining. :)  Some people want to be proactive in condemning, and outcomes are different. 

 

Editing to add I was raised to stand because it indicated we were still being respectful.  If I had ever been caught horsing around or being disrespectful I would have been in trouble! 

Edited September 26, 2017 by goldberry

[barnwife]

Apparently the teacher was unaware of West Virginia State Board of Education vs. Barnette. Landmark case. Is it not studied in the school law course teachers have to take?

 

I have nothing to add except that, at least in my state, there is no dedicated course in "school law" for teachers. (At least, there wasn't when I graduated, and I believe there still isn't.)

 

However, I remain flabbergasted that anyone believes it's okay to accost someone else over the Pledge.

[HS Mom in NC]

You only need to get to the word manhandled in the sentence to be upset by this.  Teachers aren't allowed to manhandle students.  I'm not sure where exactly the line is when it comes to restraining a student who is physically attacking someone, but no one was in physical danger from this kid, so why was the teacher even touching him at all? No matter what the kid was sitting for, a good reason or a bad one, manhandling isn't appropriate. 

Any teacher so emotionally upset that they lose control and grab a kid has serious psychological and/or character issues. 

I'm not a Mennonite or JW, but I choose not to say the pledge because I take pledges and vows VERY seriously and would never even consider making a pledge/vow about anything or to anything other than God because I'm a Christian. My wedding vows were to God, not a country or flag.  What other Christians choose to do about the pledge is their business and they can go legitimately either way on that.  I don't physically manhandle someone with a different point of view than mine.  Sheesh!

I do stand for the national anthem and if people are pledging I stand silently and respectfully so as to not distract anyone or bring attention to myself. I don't go on about why I'm not participating-someone would have to ask me directly or bring up the topic in some way.

I do think it's really bizarre that people are OK with a child pledging at an age where they can't possibly comprehend what it means, so while I think older kid and adult participation can be legitimate, young children are just blindly parroting.

[Terabith]

Because public school, paid for by American tax dollars, is optional. If you hate the US that much, stay out of the public schools and stop using up American resources. Spending 60 seconds giving a little respect and thanks to what you are about to receive and have been receiving is not too much to ask.

 

Um, no.  Pretty sure education is compulsory everywhere.  Your posts are horrific and completely devoid of both compassion and common sense. 

 

[Scarlett]

It wasn't all "fortune" though, you contributed to that outcome by being proactive in explaining. :) Some people want to be proactive in condemning, and outcomes are different.

 

Editing to add I was raised to stand because it indicated we were still being respectful. If I had ever been caught horsing around or being disrespectful I would have been in trouble!

Yes, me too. Stand respectfully, hands to ones side.

[Daria]

Two different issues here.  One is that that you can't force someone to say the pledge, or stand for the pledge.

 

The other is that a teacher thought it was OK to manhandle a kid at all.  Even if the kid was doing something clearly against the rules, teachers aren't supposed to put their hands on children unless they have consent (e.g. I'm tying your shoe, or giving you a high five, and you clearly don't mind), or there's a clear immediate safety concern that can't be addressed another way.  For a kid who is seated, the only things I can picture that would meet that concern would be things like, kid is choking, kid is experiencing anaphylaxis, or there is a fire or a tornado.  

 

[Word Nerd]

I’ve seen a couple of articles refer to the homeroom teacher as a “teacher consultant,†and one said the district would not confirm whether she trains other teachers. If so, it’s even more disturbing that someone responsible for educating other educators would behave this way toward a student.

[catz]

Because public school, paid for by American tax dollars, is optional. If you hate the US that much, stay out of the public schools and stop using up American resources. Spending 60 seconds giving a little respect and thanks to what you are about to receive and have been receiving is not too much to ask.

 

Did you stop to gratefully say the pledge every time you utilize subsidized health care?  Because that's about equivalent.  Do you call your own kids snowflakes every time they don't follow an order?

 

I really do not get the mind set that if you don't blindly drop everything to say the pledge or for the national anthem you are performing some horrible wrong.  It literally hurts NO ONE.  It only bothers you if you allow it to and freedom of speech and expression is a founding principle of this country.  There are many, many ways to be a positive, contributing member of society and to respect and honor our military.   If you stand and recite the pledge, but vote for politicians who cut funding for vet services at every turn for example your pledge may mean absolutely nothing. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

If these teachers aren't sure of the policy, why not wait until they can ask about it before being a jerk?  And do they not know that everyone has cameras and every piddly thing ends up on the news?  Either way, in what universe are they allowed to be physically rough in a school (barring self defense)?  The student can't opt to not say the pledge and you think that's so heinous it warrants that action, but somehow you think the rough action is warranted/ok/allowed?  What dim bulbs work for these schools?

 

We had a story somewhat locally where a bus driver told students that girls had to sit on one side of the bus and boys the other.  There was some ruckus where some transgendered students sat on the side he didn't approve of so he turned into some sort of barky lunatic.  First of all, the district has no such policy requiring boys/girls to sit apart on the bus.  He just completely made that up.  And on top of that he went against the policies put in place to address transgendered students.  Wackadoodle. 

[creekland]

so while I think older kid and adult participation can be legitimate, young children are just blindly parroting.

 

IME, older kids (high school) are so "autopilot" with it by the time we get them that they are blindly parroting as well.  Maybe when they get into Gov't Class (junior or senior year) they have a section that talks about it, but maybe not too.  I rarely get inside that class to know.

[Joker]

In response to some students, including my own two, taking a knee this week during the pledge other students have started wearing Confederate flag apparel. 😳 So far, nothing has been said but I worry it won't end well.

 

 

Also, the Confederate stuff here is just weird. We're in the Midwest, not the South.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

In response to some students, including my own two, taking a knee this week during the pledge other students have started wearing Confederate flag apparel. 😳 So far, nothing has been said but I worry it won't end well.

 

 

Also, the Confederate stuff here is just weird. We're in the Midwest, not the South.

Holy cow.

 

I'm seeing some of the same here in the Midwest. People are not Ok with black men peacefully protesting, and the obvious response to that is to be more visible with confederate flags. ???? I looked up history of KKK and the like, in Indiana and Ohio, and it's pretty alarming how active white supremacist groups are in these states.

[Joker]

Holy cow.

 

I'm seeing some of the same here in the Midwest. People are not Ok with black men peacefully protesting, and the obvious response to that is to be more visible with confederate flags. ???? I looked up history of KKK and the like, in Indiana and Ohio, and it's pretty alarming how active white supremacist groups are in these states.

 

Yep. We're in Indiana and this weekend had to take a detour on the way to a state park. Almost every single house we passed on that back road detour had a confederate flag flying. I've never seen anything like it and it shook us up a bit. We're more aware of who we live by now that's for sure. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Yep. We're in Indiana and this weekend had to take a detour on the way to a state park. Almost every single house we passed on that back road detour had a confederate flag flying. I've never seen anything like it and it shook us up a bit. We're more aware of who we live by now that's for sure.

Pming you about location

[Laura Corin]

 

Seriously, where is your empathy?

 

Missing, missing, missing.  As when she attacked a young American man who (may have) carried out a stupid prank overseas and who then ended up dead.  

My best wishes to her own son as he spends time in a foreign country.

[Paige]

I think often in situations like this it isn't about the supposed infraction of the student/other person at all. It's about the teacher or other authority figure's need to control and losing his or her temper and own self control. The student did not do what was asked and that's all it takes sometimes. It has nothing to do if whether or not the request is valid. The student does not have to stand for the pledge and shouldn't be manhandled for it. On the other hand, if the student had been asked to stand to go to lunch, his 2nd class, or whatever, he should do it, but had he not, the adult still does not have the right to manhandle him! A parent, security officer, principal, nurse, or someone else should be called in to negotiate and deescalate, with appropriate consequences given later. Situations like these are about poor self control and anger management in the adult and I think any adult/person in authority could succumb if they don't watch themselves. 

 

 

[goldberry]

In response to some students, including my own two, taking a knee this week during the pledge other students have started wearing Confederate flag apparel. 😳

 

So why the confederate flag not the American flag?  No, couldn't have anything to do with racism....  

[kiwik]

Yes shouldn't have been done. Probably has been done thousands of times before. Nowadays things that would have been sorted in house are splashed all over the news. I'm not sure whether it is better or not. Since he doesn't seem to have been hurt the teacher needs to apologise to the boy and the whole class and receive whatever is the appropriate discipline. Nothing to see here folks. Move on.

[creekland]

Living in the heart of major Civil War territory near Gettysburg, the polarization our country has developed in recent years - that has escalated exponentially lately - gives one really eerie feelings.

 

We (humans) sure don't learn a heck of a lot from history.

 

It honestly seems like one must be choosing sides at this point.  Even sports must choose sides.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Yes shouldn't have been done. Probably has been done thousands of times before. Nowadays things that would have been sorted in house are splashed all over the news. I'm not sure whether it is better or not. Since he doesn't seem to have been hurt the teacher needs to apologise to the boy and the whole class and receive whatever is the appropriate discipline. Nothing to see here folks. Move on.

Excepting it hasn't been done thousands of times before, in American public schools. What we are saying as current teachers, former teachers, former students who did say the pledge AND former students who didn't say it, is this:

 

Everybody knows that students don't have to say it.

 

There may be variations on policy, whether a note from home is required, or how the non-pledging student is to conduct himself during the pledge. There may be variations on consequences, depending on school discipline and home training of fellow students. IOW, he mays be criticized for it, or have to endure some uncomfortable conversations at first. But everybody, everybody, everybody knows that he is not to be physically snatched up and compelled to swear an oath.

 

This is a teacher who is off the chain during a volatile era regarding national symbols and peaceful protest. It's news.

[historically accurate]

In response to some students, including my own two, taking a knee this week during the pledge other students have started wearing Confederate flag apparel. 😳 So far, nothing has been said but I worry it won't end well.

 

 

Also, the Confederate stuff here is just weird. We're in the Midwest, not the South.

 

I'm sorry; that's awful.  :grouphug:  

 

I didn't feel like I should "like" this post, but I really felt it needed an acknowledgement of some sort. 

[Lady Florida.]

Yes shouldn't have been done. Probably has been done thousands of times before. Nowadays things that would have been sorted in house are splashed all over the news. I'm not sure whether it is better or not. Since he doesn't seem to have been hurt the teacher needs to apologise to the boy and the whole class and receive whatever is the appropriate discipline. Nothing to see here folks. Move on.

 

There's plenty to see and it isn't a common occurrence. Corporal punishment was once accepted in schools but even with that there were specific guidelines. 

 

As a former teacher I don't want to move on when I see members of my chosen profession act unprofessionally. Whether it's having affairs with students, spouting their religious or political beliefs (even ones I agree with) to impressionable students, or violating the law by physically accosting a student, I want to see it stop. And I will speak out against it and call for teachers who do any of those things to be punished. No one with an education degree walks into a classroom not knowing that these things are unacceptable and depending on the action, against the law.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Lady Florida.

[rose]

Living in the heart of major Civil War territory near Gettysburg, the polarization our country has developed in recent years - that has escalated exponentially lately - gives one really eerie feelings.

 

We (humans) sure don't learn a heck of a lot from history.

 

It honestly seems like one must be choosing sides at this point.  Even sports must choose sides.

I'm in Canada but it's fascinating to me to see this play out in the US. What I don't know from history is how something like this could play itself out. If tensions continue to rise civil war could be around the corner but how does civil war occur in a country where the two sides are not geographically sorted any more? Would it be like Northern Ireland? What about an "Christian" version of ISIS? What other examples, even far out there examples, are there that we could glean from?

[Ravin]

In response to some students, including my own two, taking a knee this week during the pledge other students have started wearing Confederate flag apparel. 😳 So far, nothing has been said but I worry it won't end well.

 

 

Also, the Confederate stuff here is just weird. We're in the Midwest, not the South.

 

I will admit to encouraging my DD in the speech countering game. She is annoyed by a boy at school who wears a Trump hat, so I'm letting her design her own to wear to school. I think it's important to let students learn that speech is the appropriate counter to speech, even if it's speech you don't like.

[creekland]

I'm in Canada but it's fascinating to me to see this play out in the US. What I don't know from history is how something like this could play itself out. If tensions continue to rise civil war could be around the corner but how does civil war occur in a country where the two sides are not geographically sorted any more? Would it be like Northern Ireland? What about an "Christian" version of ISIS? What other examples, even far out there examples, are there that we could glean from?

 

I guess I see it mostly being like the Dr Seuss Sneetches story, except both sides will think they are the Star Bellied Sneetches.  Folks will end up being ostracized if in areas where they aren't the majority and many will probably end up moving to a better fit.  There IS a bit of geographical sorting that has happened already in Deep Red or Deep Blue states/areas.  More will happen.  Trouble could come whenever someone makes the first shot.  Well, it already comes then, but it could get more common, and more common, etc.

 

What hubby and I were discussing is where we moderates fit into all of this.  We don't think we do.  We aren't financially ready to move just yet, but are working on it and should be ready in 2-4 years.  If the "climate" continues as it has been doing, we'll definitely be ready to depart.  Canada is attractive and my step-mom is Canadian, but it's too cold for too long.   :coolgleamA:

[ktgrok]

In response to some students, including my own two, taking a knee this week during the pledge other students have started wearing Confederate flag apparel. 😳 So far, nothing has been said but I worry it won't end well.

 

 

Also, the Confederate stuff here is just weird. We're in the Midwest, not the South.

 

Because nothing says "I support the USA" like wearing the flag of one of it's enemies. Sigh. 

[kiwik]

There's plenty to see and it isn't a common occurrence. Corporal punishment was once accepted in schools but even with that there were specific guidelines.

 

As a former teacher I don't want to move on when I see members of my chosen profession act unprofessionally. Whether it's having affairs with students, spouting their religious or political beliefs (even ones I agree with) to impressionable students, or violating the law by physically accosting a student, I want to see it stop. And I will speak out against it and call for teachers who do any of those things to be punished. No one with an education degree walks into a classroom not knowing that these things are unacceptable and depending on the action, against the law.

I said appropriate action should be taken - maybe that is deregistration, retraining, being fired. I am just not sure that one teacher's unprofessional behavior is that big news given all the other stuff that is happening in the world.

 

Eta. Maybe the appropriate action is assault charges. I don't know.

Edited September 28, 2017 by kiwik

[luuknam]

I said appropriate action should be taken - maybe that is deregistration, retraining, being fired. I am just not sure that one teacher's unprofessional behavior is that big news given all the other stuff that is happening in the world.

 

Eta. Maybe the appropriate action is assault charges. I don't know.

 

 

If this had happened a year ago, it should not have been news worthy (worthy of consequences, of course, but not national news). However, right now... I don't know. What are the odds that the teacher reacted this way *because* of recent news events wrt the pledge, and would not have manhandled the kid had the kid done the same thing a year ago? I don't know.

[rose]

I guess I see it mostly being like the Dr Seuss Sneetches story, except both sides will think they are the Star Bellied Sneetches.  Folks will end up being ostracized if in areas where they aren't the majority and many will probably end up moving to a better fit.  There IS a bit of geographical sorting that has happened already in Deep Red or Deep Blue states/areas.  More will happen.  Trouble could come whenever someone makes the first shot.  Well, it already comes then, but it could get more common, and more common, etc.

 

What hubby and I were discussing is where we moderates fit into all of this.  We don't think we do.  We aren't financially ready to move just yet, but are working on it and should be ready in 2-4 years.  If the "climate" continues as it has been doing, we'll definitely be ready to depart.  Canada is attractive and my step-mom is Canadian, but it's too cold for too long.   :coolgleamA:

The thing is that Canada is NOT moderate in this issue. If Trump and Clinton had ran here Clinton would have won by an epic landslide. Our current PM has a very liberal and he's well liked.

 

That said, if you still like Canada, you could consider the west coast. The weather is the same as Seattle. Of course, there's always Mexico too... :coolgleamA: