So mad! Do I need legal...update #61

[Barb_]

So I'm redoing my house after the fire. We have insurance money, but it's still money and the custom cabinets aren't cheap. Point being, I'm paying this guy multiple thousands of dollars and he has acted like working with me is an inconvenience. Long, long story but he never asked what I would like...he just designed things the way he wanted down to switching my dishwasher to the other side of my sink without asking (away from my actual dish cabinets, because "most people are right handed." Well, I am not.) I would catch things and change them and he would be so irritated. He kept telling me, "we always do it this way."

 

Well, toward the end, we'd had enough of each other but were too deep into it to quit. He was arguing that I didn't actually want cherry wood (I did) and that everyone likes Alder (too soft for an island). I disagreed but went with him anyway to look at some alder cabinets. While there I noticed the cabinet finish was dull. I told him when it came time I didn't like the flat look and wanted more sheen. He snapped, "we don't do it that way...everyone likes flat finish." I responded that I didn't care for it on my cabinets and would prefer a light sheen. He actually mildly sneered at me and said, "what, you want like a semi-gloss? No one does that anymore." And I responded no, somewhere in between and I would email him.

 

On 7/25 I emailed him that I liked a 25% satin finish. I have been so busy other contractors that I didn't notice he never responded (he never bothered responding unless I asked him to though).

 

Guess what? He flat finished my $25K cabinets.

 

He said I signed off on it. What I signed off on was:

 

Flat finished end panel: Pantry/oven/linen

 

I was under the impression that he meant the hidden end panels on the sides were flat finished. I never imagined he would switch the finish to spite me.

 

Here is the email I sent:

 

A-, the day we met, I asked you not to flat finish the cabinets and you said, "Well we always do them that way." I responded that I preferred a bit of sheen and you said, "Well, what do you want, like a semi-gloss?" I said I didn't think so and that I would go home and figure that out and email you. I am forwarding the email of July 20 where I asked for a satin finish on the cabinets. I just realized I never received a response to this email and would like to verify that the finish is indeed a satin finish as I requested.

 

He replied:

 

Barb

The Lacquer sheen is call Dull it is on your signed cabinet spec. sheet. Please let me know if you have any other question.

 

I replied:

A-, I specifically asked you not to use dull sheen the day we met and looked at your flip house. I also requested in writing a 25% sheen which you did not respond to. You also did not send me a sample door as I was promised. All I see are flat finished end panels on the spec sheet. I was under the impression that meant the end panels hidden inside the cabinets. I signed the bid in good faith and would appreciate your making it right.

 

Any other ideas? This guy is a close friend and associate of my general contractor whom I like and trust. He also finds this guy difficult at times but highly recommended him for the quality of his work. I have copied him on all the emails.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Barb_

[Tess in the Burbs]

you may need legal interference with this guy.  I'd be afraid of letting him near what he has done already for fear he would purposely mess something up to spite you...

 

[Barb_]

This isn't the only thing he did.  I requested moldings instead of toekick at the bottom of my cabinets everywhere but the sink and the sink side of the island.  He argued with me that I wouldn't like them.  I told him that's what I preferred.  He purposefully left off a chunk of one molding on one side of the dishwasher and installed a toekick instead.  He drew it that way on the plan even though he knew exactly what I wanted.  I really think he put these things in there to sabotage the project.  I'm just gobsmacked.

 

 

[gardenmom5]

I agree, it sounds like time to talk to a lawyer - and report him to the bbb.

[Lawana]

What a nightmare!!

 

Sorry I don't have anything for you but sympathy.

[nevergiveup]

Well, apparently you are a saint because I would have fired him by now.

 

 

And, then sued.

Edited September 15, 2017 by nevergiveup

[Barb_]

I'm just so irritated that I trusted him and didn't go through the final with a fine toothed comb.  I went through all the other stuff detail by detail every step of the way and never thought he'd change it on me at the last second.  So frustrated.  With him and myself.

 

Maybe I'll just pay out of pocket and have the things refinished.  How much does that cost?  Less than an attorney?  I've never hired a lawyer and I feel intimidated.

[Barb_]

Well, apparently you are a saint because I would have fired him by now.

 

 

And, then sued.

 

I thought about it halfway through but didn't want to upset the general contractor because we have a great working relationship.  It would have put our project soo much farther behind and I've already been out of my house for a year.

[QueenCat]

Has he already been paid?

[Barb_]

Some other things he has fought me on:

 

The height of my closet bars (he's 6-3 and my teens barely over 5 feet)

 

The color of my paint (he wanted me to choose from one paint deck he keeps in a drawer--no color matching)

 

The style of the doors (90% of people choose this one)

 

He refused to color match a stain for the island off a photo.  Insisted I bring him a piece of wood or pick from his basic collection of samples.

 

The fact that I didn't want a laundry sink in my tiny laundry room (He kept drawing it in)

 

...there were so, so many.  If I asked what something met he'd act like I was stupid.  When my husband came along one time, he was very nice and explained everything he was saying.  That is so NOT how he acted with me.

[Jyhwkmama]

You need an attorney to write a strongly worded letter--at the least.

[Barb_]

Has he already been paid?

 

I know he's been paid at least half.

 

What's more, he's only installed the frames right now.  He's still building on the cabinets and hasn't even finished the doors and drawers or island.  It would be a fairly simple fix. 

[Barb_]

You need an attorney to write a strongly worded letter--at the least.

 

Ok. Damn.  Time to adult.

 

ETA: What sort of lawyer am I looking for?

Edited September 15, 2017 by Barb_

[OneStepAtATime]

1.  Call IMMEDIATELY and tell him to stop work on the cabinets until you can get this straightened out.  

2.  Also send a certified letter stating the same.

3.  Talk to a lawyer.  You've paid a lot of money already and don't even have the cabinets yet.  Talk to a lawyer.  Do it quickly.  

4.  And talk to the main contractor.  Since he is getting copied on the emails he should be hopefully aware of some of the issues.  Don't trust that he is your friend in this, though.  Be careful how you discuss things with him.  But see if he can pressure this guy into fixing the cabinets the way you wanted.

5.  In fact, since obnoxious cabinet guy seems to respond better to your husband maybe write out EXACTLY, IN DETAIL what you want for your cabinets and have your husband present it, signed with both your signatures, and insist he sign, too.

 

TBH, you may not have a ton of legal ground to stand on if most of what you agreed to and he disagreed with and changed without permission is not clearly, and I mean in detail, included in writing either in the original contract or as an official addendum that you both initialed.  Contractors have a lot of legal clout in most states.  Verbal agreements are almost worthless in many instances.  

 

But I would be VERY proactive in trying to fix this before he does one iota more of work.

 

ETA:  Even if you end up not needing a lawyer immediately, I would seek one out now.  Start the leg work so if you do end up needing one, you already have one to call.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[Pen]

Before getting a lawyer, I'd suggest getting your general contractor to step in. Isn't this what general contractors do? Made sure all the parts work together?

[Guest]

I don't like this, but I was to empathize with your frustration and it is completely warranted. I'd get legal help at this point too, given the cirumstances as I understand them, and sizes of the jobs.

[Guest]

This isn't the only thing he did. I requested moldings instead of toekick at the bottom of my cabinets everywhere but the sink and the sink side of the island. He argued with me that I wouldn't like them. I told him that's what I preferred. He purposefully left off a chunk of one molding on one side of the dishwasher and installed a toekick instead. He drew it that way on the plan even though he knew exactly what I wanted. I really think he put these things in there to sabotage the project. I'm just gobsmacked.

These aren't change orders. He is being totally ridiculous.

[Selkie]

Before getting a lawyer, I'd suggest getting your general contractor to step in. Isn't this what general contractors do? Made sure all the parts work together?

 

Yes, exactly. The general should be the one overseeing the subs and making sure any problems are corrected.

[lispy]

I can't quote, but I think you said you think that he's been paid half. So I'm assuming you are not paying him but the GC? If this is correct (And really even if it's not), your issue is actually with the GS, not the subcontractor. Unless you hired this sub yourself. In that case, in this situation, I would still be inclined to get the GC involved. He can "shake things up a bit" and likely get things resolved much more quickly and painlessly than a legal battle.

[OneStepAtATime]

I can't quote, but I think you said you think that he's been paid half. So I'm assuming you are not paying him but the GC? If this is correct (And really even if it's not), your issue is actually with the GS, not the subcontractor. Unless you hired this sub yourself. In that case, in this situation, I would still be inclined to get the GC involved. He can "shake things up a bit" and likely get things resolved much more quickly and painlessly than a legal battle.

Good point.  Are you paying this man directly or is the GC?

[4everHis]

Put a halt on the work NOW! Do not let him do one more thing or pay him one more dime until this is agreed upon to YOUR liking. My husband is in the kitchen and bath business. He would NEVER do this to someone. This is not the way it's done.

[Happy]

I'm appalled the GC hasn't already told the guy to knock it off. If the GC is not directly supervising the cabinet guy, I'd make sure he knows in details how unhappy you are. The GC has no business referring a guy like this to others. If someone I recommended treated someone I referred them to like this, I'd have a firm talk with him. Then cut him from my preferred list. 

​And don't even get me started on why he listens to your husband and not to you. For that he needs a solid kick in the shin. 

 

 

[Barb_]

Okay, I've ratcheted down from boiling to a steady simmer. THANK YOU for being a sounding board. I did exactly as Pen and others advised and called my GC. I told him I'd copied him on the emails, but wanted to run everything by him over the phone. He said there isn't any reason he can't change the finish because the drawer fronts, panels and cab doors are still in the workshop. He said he's going to work through the issues and he and I will meet on Monday.

 

I did tell him this was indicative of the disrespect he'd shown me through the entire project and that I'd have fired him three months ago if it wouldn't have put us so far behind. I also mentioned the baseboard issue and said I was originally going to live with it as I thought I was a misunderstanding, but given his response to the paint finish I want him to address that as well.

 

I'll update after the weekend.

[Barb_]

Photo of weird baseboard

 

https://ibb.co/cejzM5

[Barb_]

Good point. Are you paying this man directly or is the GC?

Yeah, the contractor is paying him out of our payments.

[QueenCat]

I know he's been paid at least half.

 

What's more, he's only installed the frames right now.  He's still building on the cabinets and hasn't even finished the doors and drawers or island.  It would be a fairly simple fix. 

 

Nm, I saw your update.

Edited September 15, 2017 by QueenCat

[Barb_]

Put a halt on the work NOW! Do not let him do one more thing or pay him one more dime until this is agreed upon to YOUR liking. My husband is in the kitchen and bath business. He would NEVER do this to someone. This is not the way it's done.

Thank you for saying this. You know how it is. You start thinking, "Is it me? Am I just difficult?" But I keep reminding myself that he is the one being paid here, duh. And yeah, I did tell the GC not to pay him any more money until we straighten things out.

[Jyhwkmama]

Photo of weird baseboard

 

https://ibb.co/cejzM5

 

 

Oh hell no!

 

That needs to be fixed.

[Barb_]

I'm appalled the GC hasn't already told the guy to knock it off. If the GC is not directly supervising the cabinet guy, I'd make sure he knows in details how unhappy you are. The GC has no business referring a guy like this to others. If someone I recommended treated someone I referred them to like this, I'd have a firm talk with him. Then cut him from my preferred list.

 

​And don't even get me started on why he listens to your husband and not to you. For that he needs a solid kick in the shin.

Ha! Yep, I know exactly why. My husband wrote a summation of the situation so far and sent it to the GC just so he knows we're presenting a united front. Part of the problem is, this cabinet guy isn't only a cabinet guy, he's also a custom home builder. He doesn't really need my business as this isn't his bread and butter. So he's bossy. And opinionated. And likes things to be fast and easy.

[Barb_]

Oh hell no!

 

That needs to be fixed.

Thank you. Yes. It looks ridiculous, doesn't it?

[Annie G]

That baseboard looks weird.  I'm so sorry you're going through this. I don't understand why people make things so hard. Why not just do it the way you want it??? Some people enjoy a power trip...hope your gc can get it fixed for you. 

:grouphug:  You've been through enough!

[Barb_]

That baseboard looks weird. I'm so sorry you're going through this. I don't understand why people make things so hard. Why not just do it the way you want it??? Some people enjoy a power trip...hope your gc can get it fixed for you.

:grouphug: You've been through enough!

Thanks, Annie. I needed that hug.

 

I think he just had the attitude of, "I'm the expert; I know best. How dare she tell me how to do my job?"

[OneStepAtATime]

Dang that baseboard is ODD!  And I am glad you are presenting a unified front.  Hopefully the GC can get this addressed pronto.  Hugs and good luck.

[Barb_]

I accidentally skipped responding to this.

 

I know. I signed the stupid thing and I'm so annoyed with myself. I know better. That's why I'm hesitant to spend money on an attorney because I think I screwed up.

 

Rich is reading the arizona statutes this weekend just to see where we stand and as I mentioned I've contacted my contractor. He has more skin in this game than the cabinet guy. I'm saving your post in case I need to move forward on Monday. What sort of attorney should I be calling for this situation? Any idea?

 

1. Call IMMEDIATELY and tell him to stop work on the cabinets until you can get this straightened out.

2. Also send a certified letter stating the same.

3. Talk to a lawyer. You've paid a lot of money already and don't even have the cabinets yet. Talk to a lawyer. Do it quickly.

4. And talk to the main contractor. Since he is getting copied on the emails he should be hopefully aware of some of the issues. Don't trust that he is your friend in this, though. Be careful how you discuss things with him. But see if he can pressure this guy into fixing the cabinets the way you wanted.

5. In fact, since obnoxious cabinet guy seems to respond better to your husband maybe write out EXACTLY, IN DETAIL what you want for your cabinets and have your husband present it, signed with both your signatures, and insist he sign, too.

 

TBH, you may not have a ton of legal ground to stand on if most of what you agreed to and he disagreed with and changed without permission is not clearly, and I mean in detail, included in writing either in the original contract or as an official addendum that you both initialed. Contractors have a lot of legal clout in most states. Verbal agreements are almost worthless in many instances.

 

But I would be VERY proactive in trying to fix this before he does one iota more of work.

 

ETA: Even if you end up not needing a lawyer immediately, I would seek one out now. Start the leg work so if you do end up needing one, you already have one to call.

[OneStepAtATime]

I accidentally skipped responding to this.

 

I know. I signed the stupid thing and I'm so annoyed with myself. I know better. That's why I'm hesitant to spend money on an attorney because I think I screwed up.

 

Rich is reading the arizona statutes this weekend just to see where we stand and as I mentioned I've contacted my contractor. He has more skin in this game than the cabinet guy. I'm saving your post in case I need to move forward on Monday. What sort of attorney should I be calling for this situation? Any idea?

 

I believe you need a Construction Attorney conversant with your particular state's laws/statutes.  Good luck.  I hope the GC will step up to the plate.

[prairiewindmomma]

The GC needs to raise holy hell with the sub and make this right. I would absolutely halt payment and hash this out now.

[Pegasus]

I'm OK with weird or odd but those baseboard photos are just wrong. That would upset me way more than the finish. I hope the GC can reach a solution for you with the sub.

[CadenceSophia]

Your contract is with the GC so your problem is with the GC, actually. I don't even know if you can take legal action against a subcontractor directly (DH says no). Unfortunately, is most likely you don't have a good enough contract to do anything legally speaking. The up side of that is if you do decide to talk to a lawyer, you are looking for prices for writing scary letters, not going to court or anything.

 

My husband's job is essentially your position on a really grand scale and his biggest stress comes at times when he's having to limp along with bad contractors because it would be too costly (time or money) to sue and continue with someone else, and trying to decide where that line is. Don't feel badly about your decisions to try and keep the project going. I doubt you really made anything worse with that one signature.

 

DH says the only option you might have is to not pay the GC for something else until he steps in and fixes the cabinet situation.

[MercyA]

I feel for you.  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Liz CA]

If you have to continue dealing with him personally - rather than through GC, be sure to be direct, professional and to the point. When he makes ludicrous comments like: "This is how we do it now" immediately inform him that you have personal preferences regardless of what others order and that you expect it done the xyz way. If thinks he can argue with you, stop him immediately and clearly state that you have made up your mind about it and you expect xyz and nothing else.

 

With people like this I avoid small talk.  I have experienced that they sometimes think the more they talk the better the chances of changing your mind or they are just muddling the convo to later claim "you said..."

I would probably end every conversation with: Are we clear on this? Or something similar. Send an email about every last little thing - cc GC as you did - so you have a document trail.

 

It does not matter that he is a big dog doing little dog's work. He agreed to to do your kitchen. You are the consumer.

Your GC needs to tell him to fix the things that have not been done to your specifications.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Liz CA

[Farrar]

Does he have a Yelp page? If not, you can make him one. And, you know, let the world know what you think of his sexist, jerky, prima donna deal.

 

More immediately, I think you need to talk to the GC. Pitch a fit. Or make your dh deal with him. He's clearly one of those men who only respect men.

[Jkacz]

We're in the middle of building a custom home right now, and our builder is NOTHING like what you are describing. We've made several decisions he has disagreed with, but all he says is "have you considered X" or "most people choose Y, are you sure that's what you want?" Once we confirm the decision, he has NEVER been sneaky about changing anything.

 

I'm sorry that you are going through this. I hope your GC can get it resolved.

[gardenmom5]

Oh hell no!

 

That needs to be fixed.

 

^ what she said.  (that was my very first thought.)

 

this guy has a *real* passive aggression problem.  

if he's this much of an Sweet Old Battleaxe - he may very well not have as much business as you think.  why else would he be doing your cabinets if he was busy building houses?

[Catwoman]

Ha! Yep, I know exactly why. My husband wrote a summation of the situation so far and sent it to the GC just so he knows we're presenting a united front. Part of the problem is, this cabinet guy isn't only a cabinet guy, he's also a custom home builder. He doesn't really need my business as this isn't his bread and butter. So he's bossy. And opinionated. And likes things to be fast and easy.

Well, he accepted your business, so he has no right to act like a jerk!

 

I'm so sorry you've been having so many problems with that guy, Barb, and I hope your general contractor can get things straightened out with him.

 

You have been through enough. You don't need that idiot making everything difficult for you. :grouphug:

[Amira]

:grouphug:

[Rebel Yell]

Thanks, Annie. I needed that hug.

I think he just had the attitude of, "I'm the expert; I know best. How dare she tell me how to do my job?"

More hugs :grouphug: and something for you to laugh about... over the summer we had both bathrooms redone. They are back-to-back, mirror image of each other, and the plumbing for both sinks, toilets, and tubs were tied together, so it made sense to do both. We had some serious issues, such as water leakage/damage, broken semi-functional fixtures, and falling-apart tub surrounds, so not just a cosmetic remodel. Anyway, we picked out the basic stuff: tub or shower, color of fixtures... but little details such as exact placement of the shelves in the shower? Or the precise height of the grab bar? Or the placement of the shower curtain rod? He kept asking me about those, and honestly, I had NO IDEA. Like where should the grab bar be? He kept saying it was up to me and I had no clue. I kept trying to ask where do most people place it? DH & I are average height, so no need for anything unusual. I shoulda called your guy :rolleyes:

 

I hope this gets straightened out and you get the kitchen you want.

[Valley Girl]

I'm so sorry, Barb! The cabinet maker's behavior is completely unacceptable. I hope the GC understands just how pervasive and wrong the disrespect and disregard you've been treated to is. He really needs to rethink recommending that guy in the future. It's OK for the cabinet guy to make recommendations. That's part of his job. But unless he's paying for the job from his own pocket, he needs to remember who the paying customer is. Everybody else's taste does not have to be yours. He sounds like a real...charmer. Glad you're on your way to a resolution.

[kiwik]

Before getting a lawyer, I'd suggest getting your general contractor to step in. Isn't this what general contractors do? Made sure all the parts work together?

If he is a sub contractor he is employed buy the main contractor. Talk to them first. And he sounds like the kind of idiot who only listens to men. Do you have a husband or can you borrow one to lurk in the background next time you talk?

 

Eta. Just read he listens to your husband. Reminds me of when I went shopping with the boys dad for plumbing and building stuff and the guy kept addressing all the answers and additional questions to him even though I was the one doing the shopping. After the second time my ex told the guy "don't ask me, she is the expert" and pointedly started looking at something else.

 

I have never seen mouldings instead of kickplates - they are cute except the bit he stuffed up.

Edited September 17, 2017 by kiwik

[Barb_]

If he is a sub contractor he is employed buy the main contractor. Talk to them first. And he sounds like the kind of idiot who only listens to men. Do you have a husband or can you borrow one to lurk in the background next time you talk?

Nah, I'd rather assert my right to take up space :)

[kiwik]

Nah, I'd rather assert my right to take up space :)

Just added a comment to my post.