How do I talk to my DH about household/life work

[lauraw4321]

After the additional details, I really hope counseling is effective. I would wonder if it's all extreme ADHD or if there is narcissism affecting things as well. As far as medication goes, he could take a booster med on his way home in order to be fully functioning for his family. Does he take the meds on weekends? Do you notice them being effective during typical workday hours then?

 

I also wouldn't leave DD's birthday present up to him. That's not fair to risk her feelings. It totally sucks that everything is up to you. :grouphug:

 

He's not a narcissist. Truly. He is a very good person.

 

He's already ordered her present, and it was a good choice. 

 

He does take the meds on the weekends and they do help.

 

We did not live together before we got married. I didn't think ADD was "real" until we were married.  Hahahaha! Although I nearly broke up with him for being so late to pick me up all the time. If I'd only known...

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

He's not a narcissist. Truly. He is a very good person.

 

He's already ordered her present, and it was a good choice. 

 

He does take the meds on the weekends and they do help.

 

We did not live together before we got married. I didn't think ADD was "real" until we were married.  Hahahaha! Although I nearly broke up with him for being so late to pick me up all the time. If I'd only known...

 

This is good news! Baby steps...

[Laura Corin]

 

No, I don't think so. Of course the father can handle the task - but then he needs to be left in peace to handle the entire task HIS way. The father can be in charge of figuring out how to get the kids on the bus. He will not forget the shoes when he is in charge of the entire operation. But vague tasks like "getting ready" - not clear what that entails.Packing the backpack when he has not been given the information that kid x needs y? Not possible, since he is not a mind reader.

 

 

 

Yes.  When Husband lost his job and I ended up working full time, he slowly took over household tasks.  But I needed to let him do it and not keep managing the tasks.  For example, we both add things to an online shopping list when we notice that they are running low, but he does the shopping.  I would normally have bought everything on the list in one go, whereas he prefers to shop for smaller batches more frequently.  That sometimes means that I can't cook what I want to cook, but he has taken on the task of shopping, and I need to back off.  I can cook something else - it's no big deal.

[eternalsummer]

You would leave food on the dishes? I'm with your DH on this one! Dishes are done when there's no work left for someone else to come along and do after you. It's like any other job. I wouldn't hand my (theoretical) boss an outline and say, here you go, the brief is done. I'd be fired. Of course my theory is that when people do stuff half assed around here is that they're passive aggressively trying to get "fired" from helping. That at some point the amount of energy I have to expend to get them to do the job is more than if I'd do it myself.

 

Well, the thing is, I don't care about tiny specks of food here and there.  To me, the dishes are done when they are clean enough that I would be willing to eat off of them or cook in them.

 

Work you do for a boss is different, because in that case you are subordinate and are doing work to satisfy someone else's requirements.

 

In our case, I just don't do the dishes :)  On the occasion that I do them, I do them the way DH prefers, but I still miss specks of food on occasion, because I don't particularly notice them.  Dishes look clean to me long before they look clean to him.

[eternalsummer]

But if, as you describe in your other post, he is unable to remember his wallet and his phone which he uses every.single.day, he may be simply incapable of remembering an isolated task he has been told about once on a previous day.

He cannot handle the daily routine tasks of adult life - waking up, taking wallet, coming home - without your reminder. So expecting him to remember anything beyond that seems like asking him to do the impossible.

 

I hope you guys find help.

 

Yes, I know that I personally would probably have forgotten these things.

 

I also used to lose my wallet or phone on a daily basis, OP.  Here is what I did:  I found a wallet that has a space for my phone (I don't have a big phone) and a loop and a carabiner clip, so I attach my car keys to it.  The only trick is that when I put the keys in the car,  I take out my phone and put it next to the gear shift.  So sometimes I forget to put it back in, and go in somewhere without my phone, but at least my keys and cards/cash are never separated, so I can't leave the house without my card and I can't leave a store without my card and etc.  

 

Unfortunately, I did leave this entire contraption in a bathroom on a road trip recently, because I'd taken my keys off of the wallet to give to a valet at the hotel.  One day was all it took (I forgot to put them back on the wallet the next morning) and I lost my wallet, including my ID and debit card and etc., because they were no longer connected to my keys.

 

These were obviously not things I did because I don't care about my DH - they had nothing to do with DH, and mostly inconvenienced me.

[eternalsummer]

regarding the morning alarms, that would be a disaster for me.  I was fine at getting the kids to school when it was just my responsibility, because my phone had an alarm that went off at the right time every morning (I never turned it off, even on holidays).  Remembering to set an alarm some mornings and not others would never happen.  When you go for a run, you need to set an alarm - preferably two alarms, if you can - and put a big note on top of the alarm-turn-off-switch that says HEY YOU HAVE TO GO GET THE KIDS READY FOR SCHOOL, I AM ON A RUN.  Or something like that.  

 

Honestly I was still not great at morning organization, and when it was just DD12 in school (when she was 10) I turned mornings over to her - she learned to set an alarm, eat breakfast, take all of her stuff with her, and bike to school. It was a huge relief.  Eventually your kids will be older, and will not need as much organization from above :)

[ktgrok]

Isn't "mental work" a bit of an exaggeration for what we are discussing here?

 

 

an example of me having to do the mental work is dinner. If I ask DH to feed the kids dinner and tell him about when, he will. If I don't, he will absolutely NOT notice that it is edging past dinner time and no one has eaten and that is why the kids are going feral. He just won't. Often it is the same with bedtime. He can get kids ready, but will NOT do so unless someone asks him. He doesn't notice. Just one example. 

[winterbaby]

He doesn't sound like a narcissist but taking everything out of your wallet does suggest a certain level of self-absorption. I wonder if he would be quite so helpless if you weren't there. He has gotten used to the workaround for his limitations being that you remember for him rather than having to come up with his own workarounds and reminders to himself. If these issues were really insurmountable, he would be homeless in the streets without you. Do you think he would really allow that to happen, or would he figure it out? You have made it safe for him not to figure it out. To some degree - though noone on here can say just how much - there is a question of attitude, perhaps subconscious. There is some element, however small, of that gender role thing several posters have pointed out. There's a reason one never hears stories of ADD/autistic/etc. women whose husbands painstakingly scaffold every detail of their personal functioning for them.

[Carol in Cal.]

But if, as you describe in your other post, he is unable to remember his wallet and his phone which he uses every.single.day, he may be simply incapable of remembering an isolated task he has been told about once on a previous day.

He cannot handle the daily routine tasks of adult life - waking up, taking wallet, coming home - without your reminder. So expecting him to remember anything beyond that seems like asking him to do the impossible.

 

I hope you guys find help.

No, I don't think so.

 

'Asking him to do the impossible' is not it.  'Asking him to consider this important enough to bother to figure out a way to step and do as an adult' is the point.

 

For example--I have *no* sense of direction.  I can get lost in places I have been in dozens of times.  I don't notice things like what stores are where very often.  A classic thing for me to do is notice something that has been in our neighborhood for decades and think it is new.

 

But, I know this about myself.

 

So before there was GPS, I would carry maps.  I would write down instructions on how to get places.  I would print out Yahoo maps once they became available. 

 

I did not call my husband and ask him to walk me through exactly how to get to Adamson Street while I was driving, turn by turn.  Rather, I took the approach that I need to make and keep my own commitments and figure out a way to *scaffold myself* to be able to do that.  Because I am not 9, and I am not 12.  Rather, I am an adult.

 

This guy is walking through life not bothering to remember or make lists or set his own alarms or otherwise do what it takes to be a responsible adult in a family.  That is indeed exhausting for those around him, and it is also a bit demeaning in that obviously he can't entirely be like this at work or he wouldn't have a job, so he must think that that is important and this is not--which is a very small step from disrespecting his wife for being engaged with this inferior stuff.  I don't blame the OP at all for being sick of it.

 

[regentrude]

'Asking him to do the impossible' is not it.  'Asking him to consider this important enough to bother to figure out a way to step and do as an adult' is the point.

 

But the OP stated that the man apparently cannot even manage to do simple tasks like wake up, shower, take his wallet, and leave for work without her help. That's why I think he may not be able to execute a complex task like "get children ready".

 

If she deems him unable to do the simplest things, why expect him to complete a complex task? Apparently, he cannot function on a basic adult level without her, which must be incredibly frustrating - but if that is the case, asking for multi-step processes seems completely futile to me.

 

ETA: I have no personal experience with ADD and cannot judge what is possible or impossible for an individual with this condition. But from what the OP writes, it seems possible to me that he simply cannot function at the level she expects.

Edited June 28, 2017 by regentrude

[bolt.]

I don't know if your husband's issues are solvable -- but I'm pretty sure, if you need too, and if you could get past it feeling unfair, you can totally run your household like a superhero.

 

My DH has a chronic illness. He works (and he currently does get up for work himself, keep himself hygienic, and take the things he needs), but otherwise, he is a *bystander* to my well-oiled-machine of a household. I don't depend on him for anything task-wise -- though sometimes he volunteers, or I ask if he can do this or that.

 

I like him, and he earns our bread. That's enough of a contribution for someone in his condition. I don't know your DH's condition, but, if things are severe, is it possible that you could forget "fair" and just decide to do the heavy lifting?

 

Sometimes the line between "he won't" and "he can't" can be really hard to see. Watch for it. If you see it in your life, it might help you react to the situation differently.

Edited June 28, 2017 by bolt.

[Catwoman]

But the OP stated that the man apparently cannot even manage to do simple tasks like wake up, shower, take his wallet, and leave for work without her help. That's why I think he may not be able to execute a complex task like "get children ready".

 

If she deems him unable to do the simplest things, why expect him to complete a complex task? Apparently, he cannot function on a basic adult level without her, which must be incredibly frustrating - but if that is the case, asking for multi-step processes seems completely futile to me.

 

ETA: I have no personal experience with ADD and cannot judge what is possible or impossible for an individual with this condition. But from what the OP writes, it seems possible to me that he simply cannot function at the level she expects.

I agree with everything you have written, but I think Carol touched on an important question in her post, when she wondered how Laura's dh manages to hold down a regular job, when he is seemingly so incapable of handling very basic tasks and responsibilities at home. If the guy can't remember his wallet, how can he remember the things he needs to do for work every day?

 

Like you, I have no personal experience with ADD, so I'm not sure what's possible or impossible, either. It appears to me that you're right about not being able to expect him to handle complex tasks if he can't handle simple tasks, but I have to admit that the work situation confuses me a bit.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Catwoman

[regentrude]

I agree with everything you have written, but I think Carol touched on an important question in her post, when she wondered how Laura's dh manages to hold down a regular job, when he is seemingly so incapable of handling very basic tasks and responsibilities at home. If the guy can't remember his wallet, how can he remember the things he needs to do for work every day?

 

Like you, I have no personal experience with ADD, so I'm not sure what's possible or impossible, either. It appears to me that you're right about not being able to expect him to handle complex tasks if he can't handle simple tasks, but I have to admit that the work situation confuses me a bit.

 

Yes, I find this puzzling too. He cannot get himself there unaided, but once he's at work, the ADD is to his advantage? 

[lauraw4321]

Yes, I find this puzzling too. He cannot get himself there unaided, but once he's at work, the ADD is to his advantage? 

 

I was going to let this go, but, what the heck; I'll bite.

 

First, his medicine is at its highest effect when he's at work. So there's that.

 

Secondly, the core task of his work (not the administrative things, but the core WORK) involves making complicated mathematical models to predict how complex physical structures will react when complex forces are applied to them. Many people cannot do this kind of work well because it requires intense concentration. Intense to the point of forgetting to eat. And he is VERY good at that aspect of his job. Like, wins national awards, good. He hyper-focuses. He also thinks about the problems in much more creative ways than his co-workers do. Which seems to be tied to ADD. By that I mean, someone with ADD's brain just works differently than NT's people's brains. Now I suppose there may be people who think as creatively as he does that don't have ADD, but in my experience the two are linked.

 

I have joked that he wouldn't be good at his job if he had to remember mundane things like taking his cell phone to work. When there is a really interesting problem it is hard to pull him out of it. 

 

But the mundane parts of work?  Like filling out expense reports? Turning in paperwork? Yeah, not so great at those.

 

ETA: I have point out to him that those other parts - the administrative tasks, for example - are in fact part of his work. Because he tends to view them simply as annoyances. I've tried to reframe them to him as being important to his job as well, but he doesn't really buy that.

Edited June 28, 2017 by lauraw4321

[kbutton]

I wonder if he would be quite so helpless if you weren't there. He has gotten used to the workaround for his limitations being that you remember for him rather than having to come up with his own workarounds and reminders to himself. If these issues were really insurmountable, he would be homeless in the streets without you. Do you think he would really allow that to happen, or would he figure it out? You have made it safe for him not to figure it out. To some degree - though noone on here can say just how much - there is a question of attitude, perhaps subconscious. There is some element, however small, of that gender role thing several posters have pointed out. There's a reason one never hears stories of ADD/autistic/etc. women whose husbands painstakingly scaffold every detail of their personal functioning for them.

 

There really are some people who would have to limit their life to the barest details to be effective at work. It happens. Often they have no social life, or a wracked with anxiety (or extremely rigid), but they do manage to hold it together. Also, compartmentalizing...more on that later.

 

No, I don't think so.

 

'Asking him to do the impossible' is not it.  'Asking him to consider this important enough to bother to figure out a way to step and do as an adult' is the point.

 

For example--I have *no* sense of direction.  I can get lost in places I have been in dozens of times.  I don't notice things like what stores are where very often.  A classic thing for me to do is notice something that has been in our neighborhood for decades and think it is new.

 

But, I know this about myself.

____

 

This guy is walking through life not bothering to remember or make lists or set his own alarms or otherwise do what it takes to be a responsible adult in a family.  That is indeed exhausting for those around him, and it is also a bit demeaning in that obviously he can't entirely be like this at work or he wouldn't have a job, so he must think that that is important and this is not--which is a very small step from disrespecting his wife for being engaged with this inferior stuff.  I don't blame the OP at all for being sick of it.

Above the ------ I inserted--some people with EF issues know themselves and adapt. For some, knowing themselves is the biggest EF challenge. It's not like ADHD looks the same for everyone. Below the ---- It is demeaning, but it may be unconscious. It could be quite the show when he finds out, which I suggest the OP tackle with professional help because it could be a long process, or it could be really touchy. 

 

As for being like this at work, MANY people can handle one realm of life and not another. It's more about compartmentalizing, going with the group culture at work, or any number of details that make it or break it. It is entirely possible that his work is perfect for him in many ways, and he doesn't need to be different. If he's great at his job, people at work might be putting up with a heck of lot that no one knows, but the give and take in that environment is more evenly distributed. Getting up, having a wallet, etc. is life at home--the stuff he does before work. Yes, it affects work, but it's at home. 

 

I am trying to explain vs. make excuses. Trust me when I say that it's really incomprehensible sometimes, but I'm not making stuff up. 

 

Some people really don't have a sense of place, context, time, etc. that makes for a really ugly interpersonal combo. Do you know how hard it can be to walk down the street with someone who has ADHD? Lol! One person might be okay, particularly if you are holding hands, like one does when they are dating. Fast forward to kids or being around multiple family members with ADHD--the wheels fall off the bus, and walking down the street is a three-ring circus. How can someone be so oblivious to how they walk? Easy--it was normal for their family and/or their family gave up walks in favor of some other activity that did work. It's really not so hard to recondition one's self to a different normal without knowing it to accommodate an ADHD spouse if you are a person who genuinely "lives and lets live" or tries to be flexible as a rule. But then one day, you're in Neverland, and you don't know how you got there.

[kbutton]

There's a reason one never hears stories of ADD/autistic/etc. women whose husbands painstakingly scaffold every detail of their personal functioning for them.

 

Um, google. You'll find them. One of the gender stereotypes involves women with ADHD being shamed into silence by gender expectations of a Pinterest-worthy house or who knows what. I've also personally worked with people who can literally train you down to the tiniest detail of their job but who cannot DO their job. Real scenario. Really stressful. I worked in a team environment where we did everything possible to prop this person up (like, most bosses would never go to these lengths), and we did a lot of troubleshooting on what this woman could do or not do, why, how to make her successful--it was literally occupying hours of our time. One day she could do a task, the next not. She could do it in a certain scenario but not another. We devised a situation in which we had her "train" a new person. She was flawless in the training setting. It was awful because we could not figure out a way to make things work. The boss opted to have all of us continue to prop her up and fix her work (it was as fantastic as it sounds), and he was willing to do so indefinitely (he was a piece of work himself--he liked having people dependent on him). She became increasingly paranoid about her own performance (she could sense we were all on edge), and when the new person started to be relied on and more competent, she quit, citing to the boss that we were on a trajectory to replace her. It was one of the worst work situations I was ever in and super stressful. 

 

On a separate note...

I think the OP mentioned not living together before marriage. I really think that in some realms (my realm would be the conservative Christian, no living together or s*x before marriage scenario, but I don't know about the OP), pastors, mentors, etc. really need to be better versed on ADHD and the red flags and be competent to give advice. It is possible for people to really want the same things and be very compatible on paper, talk it out, be "on the same page," but not at all be equally competent in executing that vision for life.

[ktgrok]

My husband scaffold for me although not to that extent. He even used to keep an extra copy of my ID for me.

[Ravin]

Also, my kids have gotten into the habit of trusting mom as the household manager. So they tell ME stuff and I'm expected to make sure it's done.

 

 

If I had a nickel for every time DD asked me "what's for dinner" knowing that DH is the one who cooks dinner and has been since he quit working f/t to go back to school in 2010 (so, half her life!)...it wouldn't pay off my student loans, but it'd be a nice pile of change for sure!

[zoobie]

We have a friend who is beyond brilliant. She started a company right out of grad school with some friends and then sold it, stayed on as a creative consultant for a few years, then retired young. We met her right after she retired and she was LOST without having an executive assistant to handle everything. She had been a fairly involved parent but in a stereotypically successful male way. Her wife handled all the setting up of the appointments, buying clothes, etc. She just played with and loved on the kids whenever she was home. Then they separated and she had to figure out all the mundane crap. She was very open about the struggles and would literally take notes when she asked me how to do XYZ. She hired a housekeeper for a transition period so they would have food and clean clothes and such. She probably should have hired a personal assistant to deal with bills and car tags and all that jazz. Anyway, I completely understand how OP's DH functions at work and not at home. He probably uses all his EF abilities at work and has nothing left to give at home. (Which SUCKS for his wife, don't get me wrong!) Similar to a kid who holds it together at school all day but can't at home. If he weren't so gifted in one area to be able to have that professional job and didn't have a steady spouse and support system, his life would likely be total chaos.

 

Anyway, I also understand how other geniuses and high powered whatever (actors, singers) lose everything to an untrustworthy business manager too.

[maize]

I don't know if your husband's issues are solvable -- but I'm pretty sure, if you need too, and if you could get past it feeling unfair, you can totally run your household like a superhero.

 

My DH has a chronic illness. He works (and he currently does get up for work himself, keep himself hygienic, and take the things he needs), but otherwise, he is a *bystander* to my well-oiled-machine of a household. I don't depend on him for anything task-wise -- though sometimes he volunteers, or I ask if he can do this or that.

 

I like him, and he earns our bread. That's enough of a contribution for someone in his condition. I don't know your DH's condition, but, if things are severe, is it possible that you could forget "fair" and just decide to do the heavy lifting?

 

Sometimes the line between "he won't" and "he can't" can be really hard to see. Watch for it. If you see it in your life, it might help you react to the situation differently.

This is the reality in my household as well, minus the well oiled machine bit. I muddle through doing the best i can because just doing what it takes to be the breadwinner takes pretty much everything my dh can muster. There is no equitable distribution of labor, but then, there is not an equitable distribution of health either. Since I have the greater portion of the latter, the greater portion of the former also falls to me. Edited June 28, 2017 by maize

[regentrude]

I was going to let this go, but, what the heck; I'll bite.

 

First, his medicine is at its highest effect when he's at work. So there's that.

 

Secondly, the core task of his work (not the administrative things, but the core WORK) involves making complicated mathematical models to predict how complex physical structures will react when complex forces are applied to them. Many people cannot do this kind of work well because it requires intense concentration. Intense to the point of forgetting to eat. And he is VERY good at that aspect of his job. Like, wins national awards, good. He hyper-focuses. He also thinks about the problems in much more creative ways than his co-workers do. Which seems to be tied to ADD. By that I mean, someone with ADD's brain just works differently than NT's people's brains. Now I suppose there may be people who think as creatively as he does that don't have ADD, but in my experience the two are linked.

 

I have joked that he wouldn't be good at his job if he had to remember mundane things like taking his cell phone to work. When there is a really interesting problem it is hard to pull him out of it. 

 

But the mundane parts of work?  Like filling out expense reports? Turning in paperwork? Yeah, not so great at those.

 

ETA: I have point out to him that those other parts - the administrative tasks, for example - are in fact part of his work. Because he tends to view them simply as annoyances. I've tried to reframe them to him as being important to his job as well, but he doesn't really buy that.

 

Thank you for "biting" and taking the time to explain. It helps me understand better. 

Edited June 28, 2017 by regentrude

[MotherGoose]

My kids are 11, 8, and toddler, so YMMV with this. But I leave dh a list of what needs to be done (presumably by kids ) and ask him to make sure it happens/help. So I'm not leaving HIM a to do list, I'm leaving the kids one. But he's making sure the kids do theirs and by default he's getting things done.

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:

 

Read Smart But Scattered.  Read ADD Friendly Ways to Organize Your Life.  Really embrace that his brain works differently than yours.  What seems a simple series of tasks to you may be a pile of randomness and frustration to him, and much of what seems logical to you will never even have a chance to be thought about for more than a few seconds (if at all) before other things will push those thoughts out of the way.  

 

Try to picture it this way...pretend in your own head in the span of 1 minute you think about the laundry, the dishes, the bill that you have to mail, your child's shoes that are muddy, the vacuuming that still needs to be done, the dinner that you need to cook, the groceries you still need to buy and on and on and on.  They are all vying for your attention and you cannot focus on just one thing and get it done because your brain can't prioritize these things.  It is all just a random mess in your head.  You may get a few things done but much gets lost, forgotten, or never even thought of in the first place.  Now at the end of the day you are still being bombarded with tons of thoughts only now you are also getting a sense from your spouse that you have failed because you didn't do a lot of the things that your spouse felt you should have.  So now you are also demoralized and defensive and hate feeling like a failure.  You are also still trying to combat the zillions of thoughts rushing through your head.  

 

I know your schedules are erratic and you are trying to find ways to shift the balance of things after 13 years of doing it in a way that is hard on you, but the best thing that can happen to a person with ADHD is routine.  Solid, consistent, predictable, clearly laid out routine so he isn't having to guess and change and try to remember.

 

1.  Make a list of EVERY little thing that has to be done on a day to day basis.  All minute steps included.  Brainstorm as a team ALL the things that need to be done.  Get his input.  Look at that list together.

2.  Make a clearly laid out calendar of your family's schedule each day, and each week.  Details count, including a realistic estimate of things like brushing teeth, etc.  Yes this is a pain but it will help.

3.  Sit down and after looking at those lists, work as a team to divide up all the work that must be accomplished each day and then set up a more balanced routine.  Clearly lay it out as best the two of you can so that a routine can be established.  Don't keep shifting responsibilities for things, at least not until he and you have both got the routine down.  You are responsible for one set of things and he is responsible for another.  Keep it consistent, even though that does not really provide you with the flexibility you were hoping to get implemented.  He needs consistency.  He needs routine.  

4.  Find a way to keep that routine in place regardless of schedule whenever possible.  For him to function independently without constantly relying on you to do the bulk of the mental planning/work he has to have a routine.  Things done in the same order at the same time each day.  This includes where he puts his wallet and his keys and getting them out of that location again each morning.  Accept that while you try to implement that schedule it will be on your shoulders to set it up, implement it, and scaffold your husband in a positive and supportive and encouraging manner until he has internalized the routine.  This will take time.  And it sucks.  But without it he will not be able to function effectively in the way you are wanting him to.

 

:grouphug:

[Catwoman]

I was going to let this go, but, what the heck; I'll bite.

 

First, his medicine is at its highest effect when he's at work. So there's that.

 

Secondly, the core task of his work (not the administrative things, but the core WORK) involves making complicated mathematical models to predict how complex physical structures will react when complex forces are applied to them. Many people cannot do this kind of work well because it requires intense concentration. Intense to the point of forgetting to eat. And he is VERY good at that aspect of his job. Like, wins national awards, good. He hyper-focuses. He also thinks about the problems in much more creative ways than his co-workers do. Which seems to be tied to ADD. By that I mean, someone with ADD's brain just works differently than NT's people's brains. Now I suppose there may be people who think as creatively as he does that don't have ADD, but in my experience the two are linked.

 

I have joked that he wouldn't be good at his job if he had to remember mundane things like taking his cell phone to work. When there is a really interesting problem it is hard to pull him out of it. 

 

But the mundane parts of work?  Like filling out expense reports? Turning in paperwork? Yeah, not so great at those.

 

ETA: I have point out to him that those other parts - the administrative tasks, for example - are in fact part of his work. Because he tends to view them simply as annoyances. I've tried to reframe them to him as being important to his job as well, but he doesn't really buy that.

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation, Laura -- you've clarified a lot for me! :)

[winterbaby]

Um, google. You'll find them. One of the gender stereotypes involves women with ADHD being shamed into silence by gender expectations of a Pinterest-worthy house or who knows what. I've also personally worked with people who can literally train you down to the tiniest detail of their job but who cannot DO their job. Real scenario. Really stressful. I worked in a team environment where we did everything possible to prop this person up (like, most bosses would never go to these lengths), and we did a lot of troubleshooting on what this woman could do or not do, why, how to make her successful--it was literally occupying hours of our time. One day she could do a task, the next not. She could do it in a certain scenario but not another. We devised a situation in which we had her "train" a new person. She was flawless in the training setting. It was awful because we could not figure out a way to make things work. The boss opted to have all of us continue to prop her up and fix her work (it was as fantastic as it sounds), and he was willing to do so indefinitely (he was a piece of work himself--he liked having people dependent on him). She became increasingly paranoid about her own performance (she could sense we were all on edge), and when the new person started to be relied on and more competent, she quit, citing to the boss that we were on a trajectory to replace her. It was one of the worst work situations I was ever in and super stressful. 

 

On a separate note...

I think the OP mentioned not living together before marriage. I really think that in some realms (my realm would be the conservative Christian, no living together or s*x before marriage scenario, but I don't know about the OP), pastors, mentors, etc. really need to be better versed on ADHD and the red flags and be competent to give advice. It is possible for people to really want the same things and be very compatible on paper, talk it out, be "on the same page," but not at all be equally competent in executing that vision for life.

 

I didn't say there were no non-neurotypical women, I said their husbands don't scaffold for them. I am autistic with executive function issues and my husband does not scaffold for me. If there are any out there who do, good for them, but in general it's not a coincidence that this type of care coincides with the type of work women have historically been expected to do for men anyway.

 

[PeachyDoodle]

I haven't read all the replies, but just wanted to say that I get it, OP. Really, I get it.

 

When I reach my frustration limits, I tell DH that I am overwhelmed because I HAVE TO THINK FOR FOUR PEOPLE. All the time. I have to remember EVERYTHING. He is always more than willing to do anything I ask him to do, and he does have a set of chores that are his sole responsibility (which he does reliably and well). But when it comes to *seeing* things that need doing and taking care of them, or thinking through the details of a task (particularly things that involve the kids, or any kind of long-range planning or logistics), he needs everything spelled out for him. And quite often, it's easier just to do it myself.

 

I try not to become frustrated with him because he genuinely wants and is willing to help. But the executive piece is just not his forte. So I try to find ways to maximize our strengths. In a lot of ways, this boils down to him doing "physical" tasks, while I handle "mental" ones. Sometimes it looks like he's handling more than his fair share, because his tasks are visible in a way that mine are not. But I think the important thing is for both partners to realize that division of labor is not limited to physical chores.

 

Maybe try approaching it from this angle: Assign him as many things as possible that are ongoing, repeatable tasks that don't require much executive planning. If the dishwasher needs unloading in the mornings, he does it. Or perhaps he does the dishes everyday. When it gets done is up to him, that way you don't have to worry about whether he has to leave early, etc. Managing kids beyond the basic, most obvious tasks (getting dressed, being fed, bathing) is yours. So if you have to leave early in the morning, you put out the sunscreen and bug spray and remind the kids and dh to use it. You pack backpacks and lunches, etc. You make doctor's appointments and write a list of questions for the doctor, even if he's the one who physically takes them to the appointment.

 

If you and he are both in agreement that responsibilities are evenly divided, it doesn't matter if some are more visible than others. And you can still mange the things you do well, without being overloaded.

[Scarlett]

Talk to him.

"Hey, I still have to clean up the kitchen/fix lunches for tomorrow/pack the girls' backpacks/run a load of laundry. I'd like to spend some time with you. Would you please do xyz, so we can then enjoy our evening time together?"

Rinse and repeat.

If you have tolerated him watchig you work for 13 years, this may take a while, but it's worth being persistent about. For the sake of the next 40 or so years.

I agree keep talking. Tonight, Dh got home at 7 and I was working...(at home). Dh starts to go outside.....I said what are you going to do? Brushhog. I said nooooo!!! He looked at me like why not? I said, we need supper. If you go out to do that there won't be supper. So he stayed inside and cooked and then I helped clean up because I was finished working by then.

[displace]

To the people recommending counselors: what type do you recommend? A psychiatrist who can prescribe medicines? A psychologist specializing in marriage, or someone specializing in ADD? What if the spouse hasn't been diagnosed?

[Ausmumof3]

:grouphug:

 

Read Smart But Scattered. Read ADD Friendly Ways to Organize Your Life. Really embrace that his brain works differently than yours. What seems a simple series of tasks to you may be a pile of randomness and frustration to him, and much of what seems logical to you will never even have a chance to be thought about for more than a few seconds (if at all) before other things will push those thoughts out of the way.

 

Try to picture it this way...pretend in your own head in the span of 1 minute you think about the laundry, the dishes, the bill that you have to mail, your child's shoes that are muddy, the vacuuming that still needs to be done, the dinner that you need to cook, the groceries you still need to buy and on and on and on. They are all vying for your attention and you cannot focus on just one thing and get it done because your brain can't prioritize these things. It is all just a random mess in your head. You may get a few things done but much gets lost, forgotten, or never even thought of in the first place. Now at the end of the day you are still being bombarded with tons of thoughts only now you are also getting a sense from your spouse that you have failed because you didn't do a lot of the things that your spouse felt you should have. So now you are also demoralized and defensive and hate feeling like a failure. You are also still trying to combat the zillions of thoughts rushing through your head.

 

I know your schedules are erratic and you are trying to find ways to shift the balance of things after 13 years of doing it in a way that is hard on you, but the best thing that can happen to a person with ADHD is routine. Solid, consistent, predictable, clearly laid out routine so he isn't having to guess and change and try to remember.

 

1. Make a list of EVERY little thing that has to be done on a day to day basis. All minute steps included. Brainstorm as a team ALL the things that need to be done. Get his input. Look at that list together.

2. Make a clearly laid out calendar of your family's schedule each day, and each week. Details count, including a realistic estimate of things like brushing teeth, etc. Yes this is a pain but it will help.

3. Sit down and after looking at those lists, work as a team to divide up all the work that must be accomplished each day and then set up a more balanced routine. Clearly lay it out as best the two of you can so that a routine can be established. Don't keep shifting responsibilities for things, at least not until he and you have both got the routine down. You are responsible for one set of things and he is responsible for another. Keep it consistent, even though that does not really provide you with the flexibility you were hoping to get implemented. He needs consistency. He needs routine.

4. Find a way to keep that routine in place regardless of schedule whenever possible. For him to function independently without constantly relying on you to do the bulk of the mental planning/work he has to have a routine. Things done in the same order at the same time each day. This includes where he puts his wallet and his keys and getting them out of that location again each morning. Accept that while you try to implement that schedule it will be on your shoulders to set it up, implement it, and scaffold your husband in a positive and supportive and encouraging manner until he has internalized the routine. This will take time. And it sucks. But without it he will not be able to function effectively in the way you are wanting him to.

 

:grouphug:

I think this post just confirms my suspicions that I have add because this totally is what it feels like in my head! So true...

[kbutton]

To the people recommending counselors: what type do you recommend? A psychiatrist who can prescribe medicines? A psychologist specializing in marriage, or someone specializing in ADD? What if the spouse hasn't been diagnosed?

 

Someone who knows ADHD, and then get referrals from there if they can't prescribe meds, and meds are needed. It's more important to have someone that understands.

 

The not being diagnosed thing is potentially difficult no matter what kind of practitioner you see. The non-ADHD spouse should probably tell the counselor up front that they think their spouse warrants a diagnosis and see how they would approach that.

 

Some people are fine without meds too. Some people have very mild symptoms. I think the OP's situation is a bit unusual in severity (but not in all that it encompasses).

[kbutton]

I didn't say there were no non-neurotypical women, I said their husbands don't scaffold for them. I am autistic with executive function issues and my husband does not scaffold for me. If there are any out there who do, good for them, but in general it's not a coincidence that this type of care coincides with the type of work women have historically been expected to do for men anyway.

 

 

This article has an example:

https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/19/attention-disorders-can-take-a-toll-on-marriage/

 

I agree that gender roles are showing up here are not a coincidence, but I have known situations where a wife has ADHD and the husband does scaffold. I know some of the situations involve financial scaffolding (husband taking complete control of finances)--that's probably also somewhat a thing that men have traditionally managed.

 

Perhaps it would be better to say that when a person scaffolds a spouse with ADHD, the type of scaffolding offered is influenced by gender roles while crossing over into all areas of life when it's severe enough. 

[fraidycat]

Now that you have posted more details, I just wanted to say that I'm sorry you're so frustrated and I hope your dh can perhaps get his meds changed so he can be more independently functional. It must be so hard for you to have to manage everything all the time. :grouphug:

 

On the other hand, your dh has a diagnosed problem, so it doesn't seem fair that you should get angry with him for not being able to handle the tasks you set for him or to remember to do things around the house that most of us would consider to be routine. Let's face it, getting the kids ready for camp or remembering to unload the dishwasher may seem like simple things to you and me, but if your dh needs a reminder to take his own shower in the morning, a multi-step process like getting the kids ready for camp might seem overwhelming to him, and it probably wouldn't even occur to him to unload the dishwasher unless you put a big note on the kitchen countertop reminding him to do it.

 

I hope you're able to get his meds changed and that you find a good counselor. Honestly, I don't know how you have managed to live this way for so many years, and I can understand why you're reaching a breaking point. The only comfort I can try to provide is that your dh probably isn't intentionally upsetting you; he may not be able to help himself learn to do the things you want him to do and accept the responsibilities you'd like him to shoulder.

 

Oh -- and after reading all of your posts, I now especially believe you shouldn't leave him with the responsibility of choosing, buying, and wrapping your dd's birthday gift. I think you may be setting him up for failure and setting your dd up for disappointment.

 

Sending you hugs. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

I have to disagree with the bolded.

 

Anger is a completely valid and normal human emotion. In fact, it is necessary to motivate change in any situation that feels unfair. We, as humans, don't change until we get pissed off enough. OP is using her valid anger to try to facilitate change in her situation. Shaming her for very normal and necessary emotions isn't cool.

[winterbaby]

Perhaps it would be better to say that when a person scaffolds a spouse with ADHD, the type of scaffolding offered is influenced by gender roles while crossing over into all areas of life when it's severe enough. 

 

Key word: when. Because whether scaffolding is offered at all is highly influenced by gender roles. That is the reality I am living, it would be nice if you could stop trying to deny it.

[kbutton]

I didn't realize your first thought (snipped here) was meant to include the second one (snipped below). I did not mean to deny or argue against your experience.

 

I was trying to include more scenarios, and I am sorry my way of doing that implied that your situation is not real. It feels horrible when that happens to me, and I am truly horrified that what I said had that effect.

 it's not a coincidence that this type of care coincides with the type of work women have historically been expected to do for men anyway.
 

 

Key word: when. Because whether scaffolding is offered at all is highly influenced by gender roles. That is the reality I am living, it would be nice if you could stop trying to deny it.

[End Quote]

I think this is very good point even though I didn't realize it was your original point (or part of it?).

 

I read it originally (and probably with other posts in my mind as well) as "men don't scaffold women with ADHD because traditional division of labor means that caring chores like helping with the kids are women's work" vs. "caring jobs [including offering scaffolding for life skills] are historically women's work, so a man is less likely to scaffold his wife if she struggles with life skills." (Which is what I take the second statement to mean, and I could be completely wrong about that as well.) 

 

I may still be botching your meaning, and I don't expect you to clarify unless you want to. ***ETA: I am not trying to say that because some women's husbands scaffold them that there are no gender roles at play at all. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by kbutton

[Catwoman]

I have to disagree with the bolded.

Anger is a completely valid and normal human emotion. In fact, it is necessary to motivate change in any situation that feels unfair. We, as humans, don't change until we get pissed off enough. OP is using her valid anger to try to facilitate change in her situation. Shaming her for very normal and necessary emotions isn't cool.

It's getting to the point on this forum where the use of one word can be called out as "shaming." :glare:

 

I wasn't "shaming" Laura, and she is free to feel any way she likes. I can certainly understand why she would be frustrated, but I'm not sure I agree with you that anger is appropriate. That's not really fair to her dh because he can't seem to help being the way he is. If he is legitimately incapable of completing complex tasks and remembering household responsibilities, getting angry with him for not doing what he is physically unable to do isn't productive and may be hurtful to him because he may want to do the right things and be upset with himself that he can't do them.

 

If he wasn't willing to seek help for the issues that are upsetting Laura, I could understand why she would be angry about that, but from what she has posted, that doesn't seem to be the case. He said he is amenable to the idea of counseling and he is already on medications so he recognizes that he needs treatment for his condition. It sounds like his meds may need to be adjusted, but I'm not a doctor so I don't know for sure about that.

 

Again, I do understand why Laura feels very frustrated. She has been living this way for years and she is at her wit's end about it and needs things to change. That makes perfect sense to me, and I doubt I would have handled it anywhere near as graciously as she has. I'm hoping that she and her dh can work together to get him the help he needs so he will be more functional around the house and so she won't have to shoulder all of the responsibilities on her own.

[fraidycat]

It's getting to the point on this forum where the use of one word can be called out as "shaming." :glare:

 

I wasn't "shaming" Laura, and she is free to feel any way she likes. I can certainly understand why she would be frustrated, but I'm not sure I agree with you that anger is appropriate. That's not really fair to her dh because he can't seem to help being the way he is. If he is legitimately incapable of completing complex tasks and remembering household responsibilities, getting angry with him for not doing what he is physically unable to do isn't productive and may be hurtful to him because he may want to do the right things and be upset with himself that he can't do them.

 

If he wasn't willing to seek help for the issues that are upsetting Laura, I could understand why she would be angry about that, but from what she has posted, that doesn't seem to be the case. He said he is amenable to the idea of counseling and he is already on medications so he recognizes that he needs treatment for his condition. It sounds like his meds may need to be adjusted, but I'm not a doctor so I don't know for sure about that.

 

Again, I do understand why Laura feels very frustrated. She has been living this way for years and she is at her wit's end about it and needs things to change. That makes perfect sense to me, and I doubt I would have handled it anywhere near as graciously as she has. I'm hoping that she and her dh can work together to get him the help he needs so he will be more functional around the house and so she won't have to shoulder all of the responsibilities on her own.

Laura did not lose her mind and scream obscenities at her DH and call him names. That would be a "wrong" way to express her anger. You told her she shouldn't be angry. Anger is always an appropriate and normal reaction when something "isn't fair". What one DOES with that anger can be "right" or "wrong", but the emotion itself is good and normal. A person can even feel both anger and compassion at the same time, being angry at the situation and compassion for her DH. In this case, Laura asked how can she make things better for herself and her family in a neutral setting. IMO, she did all the right things.

 

So that I don't derail this thread any further, I will not get in to this any further. We can just agree to disagree on what is or is not shaming, no matter how subtle. We are in agreement that things need to change in support of the OP, so I'll leave it at that.

 

I just want honor and validate you Laura and your feelings in this matter. I hope you can find a workable solution for you, because you matter too. :grouphug:

Edited June 29, 2017 by fraidycat

[Catwoman]

Laura did not lose her mind and scream obscenities at her DH and call him names. That would be a "wrong" way to express her anger. You told her she shouldn't be angry. Anger is always an appropriate and normal reaction when something "isn't fair". What one DOES with that anger can be "right" or "wrong", but the emotion itself is good and normal. A person can even feel both anger and compassion at the same time, being angry at the situation and compassion for her DH. In this case, Laura asked how can she make things better for herself and her family in a neutral setting. IMO, she did all the right things.

 

So that I don't derail this thread any further, I will not get in to this any further. We can just agree to disagree on what is or is not shaming. We are in agreement that things need to change in support of the OP, so I'll leave it at that.

 

I just want honor and validate you Laura and your feelings in this matter. I hope you can find a workable solution for you, because you matter too. :grouphug:

Quite honestly, I think you're being very nitpicky here.

 

I'm happy to agree to disagree about what constitutes "shaming," though, because it was never my intention to shame Laura.

[wendyroo]

Laura did not lose her mind and scream obscenities at her DH and call him names. That would be a "wrong" way to express her anger. You told her she shouldn't be angry. Anger is always an appropriate and normal reaction when something "isn't fair". What one DOES with that anger can be "right" or "wrong", but the emotion itself is good and normal. A person can even feel both anger and compassion at the same time, being angry at the situation and compassion for her DH. In this case, Laura asked how can she make things better for herself and her family in a neutral setting. IMO, she did all the right things.

 

So that I don't derail this thread any further, I will not get in to this any further. We can just agree to disagree on what is or is not shaming, no matter how subtle. We are in agreement that things need to change in support of the OP, so I'll leave it at that.

 

I just want honor and validate you Laura and your feelings in this matter. I hope you can find a workable solution for you, because you matter too. :grouphug:

 

Thank you for this.

 

I often feel that this board is telling me that because my kiddos have mental health problems, that I shouldn't get angry at them or ever take their behavior personally.  And I am often left thinking, "But he punched me!!  Right in the face.  Broke my glasses.  It HURTS!!  And it is going to be expensive and inconvenient.  I AM angry!!"

 

I exercised every ounce of my self-control not to scream at him or punch him back, so I don't think I should have to feel guilty for what I consider to be righteous anger.

 

Wendy

[Corraleno]

I can certainly understand why she would be frustrated, but I'm not sure I agree with you that anger is appropriate. That's not really fair to her dh because he can't seem to help being the way he is. If he is legitimately incapable of completing complex tasks and remembering household responsibilities, getting angry with him for not doing what he is physically unable to do isn't productive and may be hurtful to him because he may want to do the right things and be upset with himself that he can't do them.

 

If he wasn't willing to seek help for the issues that are upsetting Laura, I could understand why she would be angry about that, but from what she has posted, that doesn't seem to be the case. He said he is amenable to the idea of counseling and he is already on medications so he recognizes that he needs treatment for his condition. It sounds like his meds may need to be adjusted, but I'm not a doctor so I don't know for sure about that.

 

I'm not Laura, but I've lived the exact scenario she describes — including my (now Ex) DH taking all the cash and the debit card out of my wallet, multiple times, without telling me. 

 

The anger isn't about the fact that the spouse has ADD, it's that a grown-ass 40-something man, who knows he has ADD and loses his phone/wallet/keys all the time, not only refuses to find a solution to that (setting up a system to reduce the chances of constantly losing things), he continues to do it despite knowing that it seriously inconveniences someone else. There is no freaking excuse for that to happen more than once, and that one time should be followed by profuse apologies, promises it won't happen again, and a request for help in making sure it doesn't. "Fixing" his problem by making it her problem is selfish and disrespectful. When that "solution" is applied to every single aspect of daily life, it becomes completely untenable.

 

I had the same conversation with my Ex that is detailed in the cartoon posted upthread. I listed all the "invisible" tasks that took up 90% of my brainpower, and said that I felt like he and the kids were basically offloading all of the boring, mundane tasks of everyday life management into my brain, so they could keep theirs free for fun stuff, while I felt like I was trying to run a major corporation with the processing power of a single 10 yr old PC and dial-up internet. It left me totally stressed out, while his life was stress-free — in his world there were no deadlines, nothing to remember, no bills to pay, nothing hanging over his head. 

 

The anger is real, and it is exhausting to be angry all the time. Laura said she used to be angry all the time, but now she's not. I totally identify with that because I got to the same place — but it was not a place of peace and acceptance, it was a place of resignation. I was no longer angry because after 20 years of saying the same thing over and over, explaining that his refusal to take any responsibility for mitigating the seriously damaging effects his ADD was having on me, I gave up hoping that it would ever get better. 

 

A child with executive function issues can't help it — I get frustrated with my DS, and sometimes I get angry or upset at specific situations (like leaving expensive equipment behind at competitions), but I don't get angry at him, because he is still learning how to create the kind of scaffolding that he knows he needs. And when he does screw up, and it causes problems for other people, he is very apologetic and more than willing to find solutions so it doesn't happen again. But a 40 yr old man who has been told for a decade or more that his wife cannot simply "loan" him half her brain for the rest of his life, so he doesn't have to even try to take on the responsibilities of a normal adult? That guy does not get a pass.

 

ETA: Adjusting meds is not going to help unless the spouse is also willing to put in the hard work to change several decades of bad habits, and agree to take responsibility for setting up — and using — systems to manage the executive function issues.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Corraleno

[lauraw4321]

 

I'm not Laura, but I've lived the exact scenario she describes — including my (now Ex) DH taking all the cash and the debit card out of my wallet, multiple times, without telling me. 

 

The anger isn't about the fact that the spouse has ADD, it's that a grown-ass 40-something man, who knows he has ADD and loses his phone/wallet/keys all the time, not only refuses to find a solution to that (setting up a system to reduce the chances of constantly losing things), he continues to do it despite knowing that it seriously inconveniences someone else. There is no freaking excuse for that to happen more than once, and that one time should be followed by profuse apologies, promises it won't happen again, and a request for help in making sure it doesn't. "Fixing" his problem by making it her problem is selfish and disrespectful. When that "solution" is applied to every single aspect of daily life, it becomes completely untenable.

 

I had the same conversation with my Ex that is detailed in the cartoon posted upthread. I listed all the "invisible" tasks that took up 90% of my brainpower, and said that I felt like he and the kids were basically offloading all of the boring, mundane tasks of everyday life management into my brain, so they could keep their's free for fun stuff, while I felt like I was trying to run a major corporation with the processing power of a single 10 yr old PC and dial-up internet. It left me totally stressed out, while his life was stress-free — in his world there were no deadlines, nothing to remember, no bills to pay, nothing hanging over his head. 

 

The anger is real, and it is exhausting to be angry all the time. Laura said she used to be angry all the time, but now she's not. I totally identify with that because I got to the same place — but it was not a place of peace and acceptance, it was a place of resignation. I was no longer angry because after 20 years of saying the same thing over and over, explaining that his refusal to take any responsibility for mitigating the seriously damaging effects his ADD was having on me, I gave up hoping that it would ever get better. 

 

A child with executive function issues can't help it — I get frustrated with my DS, and sometimes I get angry or upset at specific situations (like leaving expensive equipment behind at competitions), but I don't get angry at him, because he is still learning how to create the kind of scaffolding that he knows he needs. But a 40 yr old man who has been told for a decade or more that his wife cannot simply "loan" him half her brain for the rest of his life, so he doesn't have to even try to take on the responsibilities of a normal adult? That guy does not get a pass.

 

I told DH last night that I was at the point where I had spent months figuring out if there is some kind of family-saving alternative to divorce. Live in the same house, but have no relationship or expectations of the other person? I don't want to destroy my family. I also try to be a Christ-follower, and I know the commands on divorce. 

 

The scary thing is that he wasn't really shaken by this revelation of mine. Which makes me think that my underlying resentment/simmering disappointment/resignation/whatever emotional words you want to use have made him retreat and withdraw to the point that the idea of separating doesn't seem so terrible to him either. He's even more committed to the idea of marriage than I am in general, but this isn't good. I've been googling counselors and have a few names to call.

 

I did read him some of the sections of The Distracted Couple (thank you for the recommendation), and he saw how we were following some of the negative dynamics described in it. But he balked at the idea that it's "all on him" and "all his fault," which I didn't say or even try to imply. I said we both clearly had work to do. I suffer from depression (which I treat), he has ADHD.  We need to figure out better solutions. He also said that given his age, he doubts he can change much. Which I also fear. 

[eternalsummer]

Well, I'll tell you that until last year sometime I did not realize I might have executive functioning issues that might be caused by ADD.  I just thought I was inconsiderate and/or lazy.  Upon realizing there might be a reason for my forgetfulness and lackadaisicalness that wasn't a moral failing, I started thinking of ways to reduce the effects of the forgetfulness (this is when I started attaching my keys to my wallet, for example).  

 

Being an adult doesn't mean you can't develop new habits or new ways of coping with a deficiency.  Probably you will have to change your expectations somewhat too - not that you must not expect him to share the burden equitably, but that you must redefine equitable to yourself.

 

So this thing you're irritated about in a couple of circumstances - where you ask him to do something a couple of times and he doesn't do it thoroughly or on time or just forgets it entirely - that will probably be hard for him to change.  For me, at least, it would be easier if you pick a few things that are driving you crazy trying to manage - say the morning routine for the kids - and just offload them entirely. 

[Corraleno]

I told DH last night that I was at the point where I had spent months figuring out if there is some kind of family-saving alternative to divorce. Live in the same house, but have no relationship or expectations of the other person? I don't want to destroy my family. I also try to be a Christ-follower, and I know the commands on divorce. 

 

The scary thing is that he wasn't really shaken by this revelation of mine. Which makes me think that my underlying resentment/simmering disappointment/resignation/whatever emotional words you want to use have made him retreat and withdraw to the point that the idea of separating doesn't seem so terrible to him either. He's even more committed to the idea of marriage than I am in general, but this isn't good. I've been googling counselors and have a few names to call.

 

I did read him some of the sections of The Distracted Couple (thank you for the recommendation), and he saw how we were following some of the negative dynamics described in it. But he balked at the idea that it's "all on him" and "all his fault," which I didn't say or even try to imply. I said we both clearly had work to do. I suffer from depression (which I treat), he has ADHD.  We need to figure out better solutions. He also said that given his age, he doubts he can change much. Which I also fear.

 

That's not a good sign.  :sad:   :grouphug: 

[ETA: I mean the fact that he is already using that as an excuse, not that he really *can't* change. Because of course he can — if he wants to.]

 

Living in the same house without what I would consider a normal married relationship was how I spent the last few years before the divorce. No matter how much you love someone, it's hard to feel like a genuine wife and partner to someone who basically needs to be managed like a child. And it's hard to respect someone who constantly disrespects you — I think that was probably the biggest issue for me. I felt constantly used and disrespected, and his refusal to change his behavior, despite knowing how damaging and hurtful it was to me, ultimately made me lose respect for him. A relationship without trust and respect is hardly a relationship at all.

 

I really hope you can work things out. Your kids are still so young.  :sad:  Ironically, it was DH who asked for the divorce; I had basically resigned myself to living that way for the sake of the kids. He had other, untreated mental health issues at the time, and convinced himself that he was perfectly normal and functional, and I was just unreasonably demanding and controlling, so he would be better off alone. In the first year after the divorce, he overdrew his bank account multiple times (bank statements? what are those?), got a ticket for expired registration and insurance (how was he supposed to know???), got a warrant because he didn't pay the ticket (you mean you can't just stick that in the glove compartment and forget about it?), had utilities shut off, lost his P.O. box because he didn't pay the renewal notice, and a million other things. He solved those problems by quickly moving in with someone else, who will handle all those things for him. Because the easiest way to solve a problem is to make it someone else's problem!

 

As difficult and traumatic as the divorce was (I did still love him and I wanted him to get help), I have to say that my life is so much less stressful now. And the depression that I dealt with for the last decade? Gone. I am determined to make sure my son knows how to manage his ADD in ways that will not destroy future relationships. But I'm afraid that there are a lot of men out there (some ADD, some just jerks, some both) who really don't see why they can't just offload all the stressful stuff into someone else's brain.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Corraleno

[Carol in Cal.]

I told DH last night that I was at the point where I had spent months figuring out if there is some kind of family-saving alternative to divorce. Live in the same house, but have no relationship or expectations of the other person? I don't want to destroy my family. I also try to be a Christ-follower, and I know the commands on divorce. 

 

The scary thing is that he wasn't really shaken by this revelation of mine. Which makes me think that my underlying resentment/simmering disappointment/resignation/whatever emotional words you want to use have made him retreat and withdraw to the point that the idea of separating doesn't seem so terrible to him either. He's even more committed to the idea of marriage than I am in general, but this isn't good. I've been googling counselors and have a few names to call.

 

I did read him some of the sections of The Distracted Couple (thank you for the recommendation), and he saw how we were following some of the negative dynamics described in it. But he balked at the idea that it's "all on him" and "all his fault," which I didn't say or even try to imply. I said we both clearly had work to do. I suffer from depression (which I treat), he has ADHD.  We need to figure out better solutions. He also said that given his age, he doubts he can change much. Which I also fear. 

 

I'm sorry, Laura.  This sounds really hard.

 

The point I was trying to make with my post earlier is that I think that adults should figure out their own systems for what they are not good at, pretty much.

This doesn't have to be an admission of failure, and they don't really have to change to do this.  What they have to do, usually, is to figure out a way to scaffold THEMSELVES.  My personal scaffolding, luckily, is easier now that I have a GPS on my cell phone, but I printed out yahoo maps for YEARS.  If my husband had scaffolded for me, it would have been a system of looking for landmarks that entirely does not work for me.

 

Maybe your husband could make his own lists, or Siri reminders, or smart watch notifications, or text messaged calendar entries.  Any way you slice it, he has tools available to make it easier now than at any previous time in history, and also, his own handchosen tools are going to work better for him than anything someone else comes up with, very likely.

 

[kbutton]

I told DH last night that I was at the point where I had spent months figuring out if there is some kind of family-saving alternative to divorce. Live in the same house, but have no relationship or expectations of the other person? I don't want to destroy my family. I also try to be a Christ-follower, and I know the commands on divorce. 

 

The scary thing is that he wasn't really shaken by this revelation of mine. Which makes me think that my underlying resentment/simmering disappointment/resignation/whatever emotional words you want to use have made him retreat and withdraw to the point that the idea of separating doesn't seem so terrible to him either. He's even more committed to the idea of marriage than I am in general, but this isn't good. I've been googling counselors and have a few names to call.

 

I did read him some of the sections of The Distracted Couple (thank you for the recommendation), and he saw how we were following some of the negative dynamics described in it. But he balked at the idea that it's "all on him" and "all his fault," which I didn't say or even try to imply. I said we both clearly had work to do. I suffer from depression (which I treat), he has ADHD.  We need to figure out better solutions. He also said that given his age, he doubts he can change much. Which I also fear. 

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

That is so very difficult. I am sorry.

 

People have changed this dynamic, and of course, some people have split up. I really hope you are able to get what you need whichever way this situation goes for you.

[lllll]

I told DH last night that I was at the point where I had spent months figuring out if there is some kind of family-saving alternative to divorce. Live in the same house, but have no relationship or expectations of the other person? I don't want to destroy my family. I also try to be a Christ-follower, and I know the commands on divorce. 

 

The scary thing is that he wasn't really shaken by this revelation of mine. Which makes me think that my underlying resentment/simmering disappointment/resignation/whatever emotional words you want to use have made him retreat and withdraw to the point that the idea of separating doesn't seem so terrible to him either. He's even more committed to the idea of marriage than I am in general, but this isn't good. I've been googling counselors and have a few names to call.

 

I did read him some of the sections of The Distracted Couple (thank you for the recommendation), and he saw how we were following some of the negative dynamics described in it. But he balked at the idea that it's "all on him" and "all his fault," which I didn't say or even try to imply. I said we both clearly had work to do. I suffer from depression (which I treat), he has ADHD.  We need to figure out better solutions. He also said that given his age, he doubts he can change much. Which I also fear. 

 

Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but the bolded sounds like it could just be a bad case of denial.  And, possibly, the realization as to just how MUCH work he has to do ahead of him.  I imagine it IS daunting, the amount of work he'll have to do to improve his behavior, from your brief description.  And you can't do it for him, that's for sure.  

 

:grouphug: