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[The Girls' Mom]

Cleaning up personal info.

Edited March 22, 2017 by The Girls' Mom

[Scarlett]

I am sorry.  I feel your pain because I have a similar situaiton with my brother.  He isn't homeless though and he is on disability.  He is on his 4th wife and although each of them had their own issues they all help him hobble along in some manner until he was able to get disability.

 

I think your best bet is to get him to volunteer to let you have guardianship of him.  If he volunteers you can probably get quite a lot done....but it will not be a piece of cake even then.  I hope someone with some real knowledge will respond.

[G5052]

Yes, if he volunteers, it's easy.

 

Getting guardianship without that can be tough. You'd have to have a lawyer and go to court with medical professionals that will testify to his mental capabilities. In some courts that can be done by letter, but locally at least, the doctor has to go.

 

He may do best in a home for people with those types of challenges. There are quite a few in my metropolitan area, but none in my county.

[The Girls' Mom]

Yes, if he volunteers, it's easy.

 

Getting guardianship without that can be tough. You'd have to have a lawyer and go to court with medical professionals that will testify to his mental capabilities. In some courts that can be done by letter, but locally at least, the doctor has to go.

 

He may do best in a home for people with those types of challenges. There are quite a few in my metropolitan area, but none in my county.

.

Edited March 22, 2017 by The Girls' Mom

[FaithManor]

Gently, if you take guardianship and he has legal and financial problems, in some states you can be stuck with the responsibility.

 

Ask me how I know! The county prosecutor wanted my brother to take guardianship of our male dna contributor. Thankfully we both consulted our lawyers and found out this was because the county could stick us with the costs of his public defender and court fees. We were a much better bet for "recovery" than the terminally ill cancer patient, thus the pressure "Don't you want to look out for your dad?"

 

In some states it also means they count your income against him in terms of getting services paid for by the county or through Medicare/Medicaid.

[Scarlett]

Gently, if you take guardianship and he has legal and financial problems, in some states you can be stuck with the responsibility.

 

Ask me how I know! The county prosecutor wanted my brother to take guardianship of our male dna contributor. Thankfully we both consulted our lawyers and found out this was because the county could stick us with the costs of his public defender and court fees. We were a much better bet for "recovery" than the terminally ill cancer patient, thus the pressure "Don't you want to look out for your dad?"

 

In some states it also means they count your income against him in terms of getting services paid for by the county or through Medicare/Medicaid.

 

 

So it might be better if her brother was made a ward of the state?  She could still advocate for him but not be responsible for him that way.

[TrulySusan]

Before you try to get guardianship, make sure you wouldn't be legally responsible for his actions. DH and siblings considered getting guardianship for their mom, but no one wanted to be held liable if she did anything harmful. This may be state specific, but worth finding out about.(In the end, dmil became medically unable to act on her mental illness issues, so no one had to pursue this.)

 

Good luck!

[Carol in Cal.]

FWIW, I have a friend whose 22 year old son went off the deep end, and the social worker recommended that she not seek guardianship of him because she would become responsible for any damage that he caused, like a parent to a minor child.  So she kept an eye on things, and helped, but at a legal distance.  The social worker was 'in charge' but she had a good relationship with her.  It was very hard.  If he refused to release information to her, she could not get it, for instance.

[zoobie]

If at all possible, speak to a lawyer before the visit. As FaithManor said, you need to know all the implications before you do anything. Does he have a public defender?

[The Girls' Mom]

Thank you for reminding me of this.  

 

I don't know if they've assigned him a public defender yet (don't they have to if he cannot afford a lawyer?  He has zero money or assets.)

 

It would absolutely hurt him if they took our income into account. And he's so prone to doing stupid stuff that I definitely don't want to be responsible for his legal run ins.  

 

I don't have a go to lawyer to speak to, and can't really afford to hire one right now anyway.  I think I'm just going to go see him and see how bad he really is.  Keep in mind, I've not spoken to him in person in several years.  There have been a few (often belligerent) phone calls in that time, and a few FB interactions, but that is it.  I've gotten a few accounts from relatives that he's seen the past couple of years.  Between that and Google pulling up his mug shots, that is really the only way I've kept tabs on him.  

I guess my hope is that he can somehow get evaluated for disability and some help.  I don't even know if he has insurance or how (or even if) he's getting insulin.  

[FaithManor]

So it might be better if her brother was made a ward of the state? She could still advocate for him but not be responsible for him that way.

Yes and in many states while a ward, the social worker in charge of him will still consult next of kin on medical issues because it helps them avoid lawsuits over care decisions.

[FaithManor]

Thank you for reminding me of this.

 

I don't know if they've assigned him a public defender yet (don't they have to if he cannot afford a lawyer? He has zero money or assets.)

 

It would absolutely hurt him if they took our income into account. And he's so prone to doing stupid stuff that I definitely don't want to be responsible for his legal run ins.

 

I don't have a go to lawyer to speak to, and can't really afford to hire one right now anyway. I think I'm just going to go see him and see how bad he really is. Keep in mind, I've not spoken to him in person in several years. There have been a few (often belligerent) phone calls in that time, and a few FB interactions, but that is it. I've gotten a few accounts from relatives that he's seen the past couple of years. Between that and Google pulling up his mug shots, that is really the only way I've kept tabs on him.

 

I guess my hope is that he can somehow get evaluated for disability and some help. I don't even know if he has insurance or how (or even if) he's getting insulin.

Try community legal aide. They may be able to answer some questions. I would consider it though well worth the $100 consultation fee to sit down with a criminal attorney followed by one who specializes in medicaid and other community service programs.

 

It saved us from a very bad fate!

[kroe1]

In the state of Florida, there is something called a Marchman Act that allows families to force a temporary evaluation and assist. See if there is something similar in your state. But, what might be better for you is finding ways to deal with your perceived responsibility. Just because you share DNA does not mean you have to help. And, it certainly does not mean your family has to give up anything to accommodate him. Unless, you forced the drugs and alcohol down his throat, it is not your direct problem.

[maize]

I would contact a disability lawyer. They typically work on a contingency basis so you do not pay out of pocket.

 

http://www.disabilitysecrets.com/question16.html

Edited March 15, 2017 by maize

[zoobie]

Thank you for reminding me of this.

 

I don't know if they've assigned him a public defender yet (don't they have to if he cannot afford a lawyer? He has zero money or assets.)

 

It would absolutely hurt him if they took our income into account. And he's so prone to doing stupid stuff that I definitely don't want to be responsible for his legal run ins.

 

I don't have a go to lawyer to speak to, and can't really afford to hire one right now anyway. I think I'm just going to go see him and see how bad he really is. Keep in mind, I've not spoken to him in person in several years. There have been a few (often belligerent) phone calls in that time, and a few FB interactions, but that is it. I've gotten a few accounts from relatives that he's seen the past couple of years. Between that and Google pulling up his mug shots, that is really the only way I've kept tabs on him.

 

I guess my hope is that he can somehow get evaluated for disability and some help. I don't even know if he has insurance or how (or even if) he's getting insulin.

Public defender really depends. If he waived his right to counsel... (and yes, they'll take that even if they know he's high/out of his mind. Then you have to fight it later or you're already so screwed it doesn't matter. Our public defender system is so messed up here. :( )

[Ottakee]

Can you see if he can get a community mental health case worker? They can help with counseling, treatment, meds, housing, etc.

[Lanny]

I took a very quick look at some of the replies and echo what they suggested to the OP about her need to be extremely cautious, before signing any legal papers, because the impact upon her and her family could be catastrophic. It is wonderful that she would like to help her brother, but her most important thing is that she protect herself and her family.

 

If she can help him in some way, without being legally and financially responsible for him, that's one thing. But being his Guardian or having a POA or Conservatorship or whatever, could really open her and her family to legal and financial issues that would ruin them. 

[The Girls' Mom]

In the state of Florida, there is something called a Marchman Act that allows families to force a temporary evaluation and assist. See if there is something similar in your state. But, what might be better for you is finding ways to deal with your perceived responsibility. Just because you share DNA does not mean you have to help. And, it certainly does not mean your family has to give up anything to accommodate him. Unless, you forced the drugs and alcohol down his throat, it is not your direct problem.

I know that I'm not responsible for him.  However, I also know that we got dealt a crap hand to start off with.  He got sucked into the mire before he could get out.  He was literally a child when he started drinking and doing drugs. I just was lucky enough to meet my husband and get away from there at 16. I was the one that took care of him until I left.  Dh and I tried for years to get my mom (and later his dad after she passed away) to let him come stay with us, to get him out too, but they wouldn't do it.  

 

 

I'm not willing to put my own family at risk, and feel no obligation to do so.  However, I do feel obligated to at least TRY to get him some help.  I'm the only person in a position to do so, especially since he seems incapable of helping himself.  

 

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by The Girls' Mom

[Scarlett]

I know that I'm not responsible for him.  However, I also know that we got dealt a crap hand to start off with.  He got sucked into the mire before he could get out.  He was literally a child when he started drinking and doing drugs. I just was lucky enough to meet my husband and get away from there at 16. I was the one that took care of him until I left.  Dh and I tried for years to get my mom (and later his dad after she passed away) to let him come stay with us, to get him out too, but they wouldn't do it.  

 

 

I'm not willing to put my own family at risk, and feel no obligation to do so.  However, I do feel obligated to at least TRY to get him some help.  I'm the only person in a position to do so, especially since he seems incapable of helping himself.  

 

 

 

 

 

(((((Hugs)))))

 

You are a good sister.

[The Girls' Mom]

I took a very quick look at some of the replies and echo what they suggested to the OP about her need to be extremely cautious, before signing any legal papers, because the impact upon her and her family could be catastrophic. It is wonderful that she would like to help her brother, but her most important thing is that she protect herself and her family.

 

If she can help him in some way, without being legally and financially responsible for him, that's one thing. But being his Guardian or having a POA or Conservatorship or whatever, could really open her and her family to legal and financial issues that would ruin them. 

Thanks Lanny.

 

This is why I've been asking questions (and not just here, but this place can be a wealth of information).  We are pretty cautious people, and I would definitely avoid signing anything without a full understanding of the implications.  I just haven't done this before, and need information about what is possible.  Throwing around ideas is actually very helpful, and gives me some direction as to how I want to proceed.

 

I want to see him face to face.  To see how he is doing and find out if he's actually clean (if I can).  If he needs rehab, I want to help him get there.  If he needs to apply for disability, I want to be able to help him do that.  He doesn't know what questions to ask, and would probably agree to whatever they told him to do.  

[Lang Syne Boardie]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[PeterPan]

Can you see if he can get a community mental health case worker? They can help with counseling, treatment, meds, housing, etc.

 

This. Sigh. Until they get him on enough meds and into enough counseling that he's stable, he's not going to make any progress. On a separate note, staying clean is something he'll do when he hits rock bottom. It's not something you can make happen for him. And rock bottom can be very, very ugly. Having both mental illness AND addiction in the same person is heartbreaking.

 

I can see why you're conflicted. There are support groups for families of addicts. You can look in your newspaper to find one. It's better to get their help than to replicate the mistakes of others who've been down that road. 

[G5052]

Yes, this thread is reminding of details that didn't apply to my parents when consulted multiple lawyers on their situation.

 

All three lawyers told me that they did NOT recommend guardianship for an adult who is mobile and capable of criminal behavior because of the liability issues mentioned here. In their experience, being a ward of the state was better. 

 

For an individual living peacefully with the guardian or in a nursing home, they said that guardianship makes sense.

[MooCow]

.

Edited March 17, 2017 by MooCow

[Lanny]

If the jail is a big one, possibly there is a Social Worker who can give you an idea about where you might look for help for him?  If he wants to change, with luck that will happen. If he does not want to change, you cannot do it for him.  I hope the visit goes well.

[AmandaVT]

Can you see if he can get a community mental health case worker? They can help with counseling, treatment, meds, housing, etc.

 

This. See if there's a community mental health center near him. They can help with everything, basically. Housing, treatment, counseling, meds, finances, job placement, etc. 

 

DH worked at our local community mental health center for years. On the weekends, his team delivered medications to people who needed meds but were unable to take them on their own. Clients had case managers who would help get the clients into appropriate housing, act as rep payees to manage their finances, etc. Also, if he's in need of a group home, they'll be the ones to speak with about that as well. 

[Farrar]

Can you see if he can get a community mental health case worker? They can help with counseling, treatment, meds, housing, etc.

:iagree: I know people are suggesting a lawyer, which you might need at some point, but I think a social worker would be a much better help as you figure out what you even need to do and try to get him the services he needs.

 

:grouphug: I hope this works out as well as possible for you and him.

[maize]

:iagree: I know people are suggesting a lawyer, which you might need at some point, but I think a social worker would be a much better help as you figure out what you even need to do and try to get him the services he needs.

 

:grouphug: I hope this works out as well as possible for you and him.

I would look into both. A social worker can help connect him with services, a disability lawyer can guide you and him through the process of applying for disability. Neither should cost you money.

[The Girls' Mom]

I found a mental health facility in his county that deals with addiction and mental illness.  They also offer services for those that need medication management.  That will probably be my next stop after I see my brother tomorrow.  I'm still scrounging for services.  Most of what is available is for the elderly or children.  

Edited March 15, 2017 by The Girls' Mom

[Lanny]

@The Girls' Mom   I suggest that you DO NOT SIGN any papers tomorrow.  Visit with him, see how it goes, and then possibly go to the facility you mentioned in Post #29.  Then, as you drive back to your home city from there, and in the next few days, you can let what you learned/saw/sensed in your visit with your brother sink in and try to absorb and reflect upon this. Then, you and your DH can discuss what you might be able to do to help your brother.  If you can do anything for him.  Changing requires that the person wants to change. Wanting to change isn't a given.  Being able to change, if one wants to, is difficult. GL to your brother and to you and your family. 

[The Girls' Mom]

@The Girls' Mom   I suggest that you DO NOT SIGN any papers tomorrow.  Visit with him, see how it goes, and then possibly go to the facility you mentioned in Post #29.  Then, as you drive back to your home city from there, and in the next few days, you can let what you learned/saw/sensed in your visit with your brother sink in and try to absorb and reflect upon this. Then, you and your DH can discuss what you might be able to do to help your brother.  If you can do anything for him.  Changing requires that the person wants to change. Wanting to change isn't a given.  Being able to change, if one wants to, is difficult. GL to your brother and to you and your family. 

Oh how I know that.  So many people in our family have struggled (and often lost the fight) with addiction.  I've seen it happen over and over.  "I'm coming clean!" They do ok for a few weeks or months, and then crash back down into it.  

 

He's not going anywhere until the 21st at least, so I do have a few days to process.  I'm rounding up the few sane extended family members we have to see if I can get him a network of fallback people, and people that are willing to keep me in the loop.  I have a long day ahead of me tomorrow, I think.  Thankfully, I have several days without prior commitments to do some legwork.   

[gaillardia]

I didn't see long term treatment centers mentioned. It used to be a thing in the metropolitan area of Baltimore and DC. You said he may not have accessibility to such things. There was one I knew that could be used from 3 months to 18 months, inhouse. 

 

Last year, NPR did a story on how hard it is for addicts to get admitted into treatment facilities nationwide, especially in some areas that are having widespread drug addictions and overdoses. 

I know how heartbreaking it can be to go through this kind of stuff and how used up one can end up feeling. Knowing what I know now, I never would have helped my extended family member. Police, jail, wrecked vehicle, clean out the apartment, the boss, all of it and more. What a shambles. It is an illness, don't lose sight of that.

 

If you can, get yourself to Al-Anon. Fortunately, my family member ended up with a strong sober support system and has done okay for the most part but has basically quit communicating/responding to me. It's been a lifetime of drug use and alcoholism.

I sincerely wish you good luck.

[The Girls' Mom]

I saw him today.  It is a mess, and there are some things that I found out about that kind of changes what I thought might be happening.  Domestic abuse is likely, and brain injury causing this behavior is very possible.   :crying:   I have a lot to think about and a lot of calling to do.  

[Scarlett]

I saw him today. It is a mess, and there are some things that I found out about that kind of changes what I thought might be happening. Domestic abuse is likely, and brain injury causing this behavior is very possible. :crying: I have a lot to think about and a lot of calling to do.

Oh I am so sorry. :(......did you go there and back today?

[Guest]

I saw him today. It is a mess, and there are some things that I found out about that kind of changes what I thought might be happening. Domestic abuse is likely, and brain injury causing this behavior is very possible. :crying: I have a lot to think about and a lot of calling to do.

😔

[gaillardia]

I'm very sorry you have to deal with this, but he is fortunate someone cares. (((HUGS))) 

[Minerva]

:grouphug:

[Innisfree]

Hugs. I'm so sorry. I hope you find some path that will give you some peace and give your brother the best outcome possible.

[The Girls' Mom]

Oh I am so sorry. :(......did you go there and back today?

 

I did.  It was a very, very long day.

[Anne in CA]

I did.  It was a very, very long day.

Didn't want to like this, but I'm sorry.

[Twigs]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Scarlett]

I did. It was a very, very long day.

Wow that is a long day.

 

What does your Dh think about the next steps?

[displace]

:(. I'm sorry to hear that.

[The Girls' Mom]

Wow that is a long day.

 

What does your Dh think about the next steps?

.

Edited March 22, 2017 by The Girls' Mom

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

HUGS. So sorry this is happening to you. I'm in social work at our county jail.

 

Is his case being updated online? If so, watch for his court dates. When they are scheduled, try to be at the courthouse. If he has a public defender, a few mins before his case goes up is the only time he will see him and you want to be there to hear what's going on. It happens very quickly and people with mental health issues usually have no idea and cannot relay it to their families later. Then get that attorney's contact info and have your brother sign something that says you can communicate with him. Stay informed.

 

Possibly try to get him sentenced to a treatment facility since the charges are alcohol related. He can stay in jail until a bed opens up usually at no charge. We sentence a lot of people to a 9 month inpatient program followed by 3 months transitional housing. It's TOUGH, but a good safe place for someone who has nowhere to go upon release. Also see if the jail has assigned him a mental health case manager/counselor/social worker. These are all separate departments and do different things based on what his specific needs were determined to be at his intake, so it's good to know what they feel are his most pressing issues. Mental health treatment moves SLOWLY behind bars and is mostly triage related. Jail is not where one gets real help. They can't speak to you directly, but they need to make sure his meds are being administered and monitored.

 

Is he in the infirm unit or psych unit at the jail? That will make a difference as to whether they are considering him high physical health risk or high mental health risk. You may also ask the public defender if he can be determined incompetent, which is different from incapacitated as it specifically affects ability to actively participate in his defense. Most of the time we send incapacitated individuals to a mental health facility for competency restoration. It's not necessarily a fun place, but clean and safe for him for a few months while you explore your options and get a grip on what you can do.

 

HUGS again. I know this is so much to deal with. Good for you for not abandoning your brother.

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

Sorry, that gor so long. Hopefully you can just reference some of it as you need to. HUGS again.

[The Girls' Mom]

HUGS. So sorry this is happening to you. I'm in social work at our county jail.

 

Is his case being updated online? If so, watch for his court dates. When they are scheduled, try to be at the courthouse. If he has a public defender, a few mins before his case goes up is the only time he will see him and you want to be there to hear what's going on. It happens very quickly and people with mental health issues usually have no idea and cannot relay it to their families later. Then get that attorney's contact info and have your brother sign something that says you can communicate with him. Stay informed.

 

Possibly try to get him sentenced to a treatment facility since the charges are alcohol related. He can stay in jail until a bed opens up usually at no charge. We sentence a lot of people to a 9 month inpatient program followed by 3 months transitional housing. It's TOUGH, but a good safe place for someone who has nowhere to go upon release. Also see if the jail has assigned him a mental health case manager/counselor/social worker. These are all separate departments and do different things based on what his specific needs were determined to be at his intake, so it's good to know what they feel are his most pressing issues. Mental health treatment moves SLOWLY behind bars and is mostly triage related. Jail is not where one gets real help. They can't speak to you directly, but they need to make sure his meds are being administered and monitored.

 

Is he in the infirm unit or psych unit at the jail? That will make a difference as to whether they are considering him high physical health risk or high mental health risk. You may also ask the public defender if he can be determined incompetent, which is different from incapacitated as it specifically affects ability to actively participate in his defense. Most of the time we send incapacitated individuals to a mental health facility for competency restoration. It's not necessarily a fun place, but clean and safe for him for a few months while you explore your options and get a grip on what you can do.

 

HUGS again. I know this is so much to deal with. Good for you for not abandoning your brother.

 

Thank you so much!  He is in the "medical" ward.  It isn't a huge facility, so they may not have a separate psyche ward?  His sugar was crashing when they brought him in so he's been there.  He's not violent, or anything, so they wouldn't have done a mental eval on him.  If you talk to him for a minute or two, he seems fine...slowish but fine.  But if you have more than a 10 minute conversation with him, you realize that he talks in circles, and cannot recall information well at all.  He answers "I don't know" to a lot.  

 

Since he is non-violent, and he turned himself in for the probation violation, I am afraid that they will just release him with no help.  

 

Do you know how hard it is to get him transferred to another county for rehab?  Dh gave me the go ahead to see if we can't get him here somehow so I can be close enough to help him get to appointments and keep an eye on him.  

[Reefgazer]

Rough hand.  I don't have any assistance to offer, but I want to wish you luck in whatever you do for your brother.

[Scarlett]

 

Thank you so much! He is in the "medical" ward. It isn't a huge facility, so they may not have a separate psyche ward? His sugar was crashing when they brought him in so he's been there. He's not violent, or anything, so they wouldn't have done a mental eval on him. If you talk to him for a minute or two, he seems fine...slowish but fine. But if you have more than a 10 minute conversation with him, you realize that he talks in circles, and cannot recall information well at all. He answers "I don't know" to a lot.

 

Since he is non-violent, and he turned himself in for the probation violation, I am afraid that they will just release him with no help.

 

Do you know how hard it is to get him transferred to another county for rehab? Dh gave me the go ahead to see if we can't get him here somehow so I can be close enough to help him get to appointments and keep an eye on him.

Being closer will help you a lot. I hope you can find him some housing.

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

 

Thank you so much! He is in the "medical" ward. It isn't a huge facility, so they may not have a separate psyche ward? His sugar was crashing when they brought him in so he's been there. He's not violent, or anything, so they wouldn't have done a mental eval on him. If you talk to him for a minute or two, he seems fine...slowish but fine. But if you have more than a 10 minute conversation with him, you realize that he talks in circles, and cannot recall information well at all. He answers "I don't know" to a lot.

 

Since he is non-violent, and he turned himself in for the probation violation, I am afraid that they will just release him with no help.

 

Do you know how hard it is to get him transferred to another county for rehab? Dh gave me the go ahead to see if we can't get him here somehow so I can be close enough to help him get to appointments and keep an eye on him.

Do you have funds for a private attorney? It will be so much easier if you do. I don't have anything bad to say about public defenders. They are just too overworked to do much besides show up and get signatures on plea bargains. It's just really hard to get in touch with them, find them, or make your wishes known.

 

If your brother already has a probation officer that he was in semi-regular contact with, that's another angle you can work.

 

Anyone can help you navigate this. The chore is finding someone who is willing to take the time and make the effort. Good Luck!

 

Don't get discouraged. I promise your patience will be tried within an inch of your life. When that happens, hang up, have wine, start again tomorrow. Rinse. Repeat.