What Religion Provides, for the Not Religious

[Seeking Squirrels]

I think it is important for parents to raise their children within some sort of ethical framework that encourages people to look beyond their own selfish interests and work for the good of the community. Religion is one way to do this (and what our family chooses to do) but even if someone is atheistic or agnostic, there are secular humanist alternatives.

 

What I see as the most problematic about the decline in spirituality in our society is that the role of religion in getting people to think less selfishly and more altruistically has too often not be replaced by a secular alternative. 

 

If church isn't for you due to your non-belief, you need to work hard to find something to replace it.

I have to disagree. This to me feels akin to the socialization argument against homeschooling. Just as PS is not the only way to raise kids who can socialize, religion is far from the only way to raise kids who can think of others. One need not work hard to find a replacement as though religion is the default. 

[Crimson Wife]

I have not made the observation that people who do not attend church are less community minded or altruistic than people who do.

There are plenty of secular way to serve the community and look "beyond their own selfish interests".

 

I agree with your second statement, but not your first. There are selfish jerks among both the religious and the non-religious, but the percentage seems to be quite a bit higher in the latter group.

[Crimson Wife]

I have to disagree. This to me feels akin to the socialization argument against homeschooling. Just as PS is not the only way to raise kids who can socialize, religion is far from the only way to raise kids who can think of others. One need not work hard to find a replacement as though religion is the default. 

 

I never claimed that religion is the only way to raise kids who are altruistic. If you read my OP, I stated that there are secular alternatives.

 

But if you don't have your child sitting in a house of worship every week hearing the message that God/Yahweh/Allah/etc. wants them to put service to others before themselves, then you as a parent need to make an active effort to have a similar-but-secular "the community before the self" message sent to your child on a regular basis. Pop culture certainly isn't going to teach it.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Do they also mention how emotionally and psychologically taxing it is to 'fake it' over many years, without ever 'making it' ?

All it's brought me so far is incredible peace to finally be in "tribe" that I'm aligned with morally.

 

YMMV...

[regentrude]

I agree with your second statement, but not your first. There are selfish jerks among both the religious and the non-religious, but the percentage seems to be quite a bit higher in the latter group.

 

The we will have to agree to disagree.

 

I have not found people to be "better" people in this country where a very large portion of the population claims to be Christian and where their religion is pervasive in society, compared to the more secular country where I grew up.

I see that orders of magnitude more violent crimes are committed and that there is no societal support for a social network. In fact, I see religious leaders very outspoken against the latter.

 

If religious people are less likely to be selfish jerks, how can you explain this sorry situation?

Several very secular countries seem to do significantly better on all measures of social justice, care for the weak, and safety than this one.

Edited January 9, 2017 by regentrude

[Pawz4me]

I agree with your second statement, but not your first. There are selfish jerks among both the religious and the non-religious, but the percentage seems to be quite a bit higher in the latter group.

 

My experience has been the total opposite.

[regentrude]

My experience has been the total opposite.

 

yep. And it is part of the reason I am no longer Christian.

Which is very ironic: I grew up Christian in communist East Germany, where that was barely legal and they really made it difficult for us. The Christian church was at the forefront of the peace movement and the environmental movement, which were also barely legal, and was the most progressive societal force.

But then I moved to the rural Midwest in the US and encountered zealous "Christian" jerks. I have never had non-religious adults threaten my children or tell me how to live my life. thanks, but no thanks.

[MercyA]

nm, maybe this came off wrong. :blushing:  

 

Edited January 9, 2017 by MercyA

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah I've had mostly negative experiences myself.  When I moved here I was looking for a new homeschool group.  One of the first people I met invited me to a religious based group.  Of course that did not interest me, but I thought I'd give the idea a chance.  So I just asked a few basic questions.  I asked her if they require a statement of faith and if they welcome any flavor of religion.  She told me that "unfortunately" they welcome any flavor of Christian.  Unfortunate because XYZ groups aren't Christian in her opinion.  Then she went on to tell me she can just tell when someone is the right kind of Christian.  You can see it in the way they live their life and how they talk.  Apparently I passed her test which is HIGHLY hilarious since really I'm a flaming atheist since forever. 

[MEmama]

And once again we have a thread specifically for atheists, taken over by Christians who want to tell us how it is according to their own narrow viewpoint.

Sigh.

[LucyStoner]

I found what I was looking for in this regards by volunteering. We cook for homeless teens, collect socks and supplies for the homeless and volunteer at the non-profit which distributes food to all of the area food banks. Some of the people we do this with are religious (Muslim, Christian, Jewish) and some are not.

 

I love many aspects of my Catholic upbringing but I can't in good conscience support the Archdiocese and the Papacy with my regular attendance or tithe because of various gender, sexuality, birth control and global spread of HIV issues.

[MEmama]

It's always an eye opener to see what they really think of us :)

 

I especially love the bit where our atheism is equated with a disability - being 'hard of faith'.

 

And the bit where we atheists have to work extra hard at making sure our children don't grow up to be selfish jerks.

 

You either laugh or cry...

Oh I laugh. But I keep my mouth shut because they really don't want to know what I think. :)

[Lady Florida.]

That's nice for you. It brought me years of suffering. 

 

But maybe that's because my moral alignment is out of whack or something...

 

Better get yourself to some sort of church replacement group. Maybe it's not to late. Plus, think of your children.  :glare:

[Greta]

There are selfish jerks among both the religious and the non-religious, but the percentage seems to be quite a bit higher in the latter group.

 

 

That has not been my experience at all, and I say this as a religious person.  Sure, I've met non-religious jerks.  But I've met far more religious ones, and they are all the more insufferable because they are convinced that their nastiness is endorsed by God.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I like the food.  They often have BBQs and stuff. 

 

:lol:

[MercyA]

It's always an eye opener to see what they really think of us :)

 

I especially love the bit where our atheism is equated with a disability - being 'hard of faith'.

 

I don't know if you're talking about me or not, but I like you, and I don't view your atheism as something like a disability.

 

And once again we have a thread specifically for atheists, taken over by Christians who want to tell us how it is according to their own narrow viewpoint.

Sigh.

 

Who said this thread was specifically for atheists? ananemone asked, "Alternatively, is there a religion I could actually believe?  I just don't see it." Who is going to reply to that question in the affirmative, other than religious people? 

Edited January 9, 2017 by MercyA

[MEmama]

I don't know if you're talking about me or not, but I like you, and I don't view your atheism as something like a disability.

 

 

Who said this thread was specifically for atheists? ananemone asked, "Alternatively, is there a religion I could actually believe? I just don't see it." Who is going to reply to that question in the affirmative, other than religious people?

The title. :)

 

Mercy, my comments aren't directed at you. You always display an open mind. :)

[MercyA]

The title. :)

 

Mercy, my comments aren't directed at you. You always display an open mind. :)

 

Okay, fair enough, but I was responding to her last question, which perhaps was tacked on as an after-thought.  :)

 

Thank you for the compliment. It means a lot. 

[bibiche]

And I would like to say that the thing I almost want more than any of the rest of it is the Group Sing.

 

The closest thing is singing the national anthem at sporting events, and it doesn't approach hymn singing at churches, even when I don't believe the hymns! The glory you religious people must experience singing hymns, I am so jealous.

I know of people who get their Group Sing on at Disney World. Anthropologists study this, seriously. ;)

[Happy2BaMom]

nm

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2017 by Happy2BaMom

[MercyA]

nm 

 

Edited January 10, 2017 by MercyA

[Wheres Toto]

I am not generally bitter about religion - I have no bitterness about growing up Catholic, for example - but I do have quite a lot in regard to the combo of homeschoolers + religion. Particularly homeschoolers + Christianity. 

 

Maybe homeschoolers just aren't the best advertisment for the faith where I live. But you could not get a less virtuous group of people if you tried. Very insular. Very loving and giving to anyone in the 'in group'. But woe betide if you are in the 'out' group. 

 

There are individual exceptions, of course.

 

I strongly agree with this.  My view of Christians growing up was extremely liberal UMC and less liberal but pretty mellow Catholics.  It wasn't until I got to know (online and IRL) more homeschoolers that I really started to struggle with my view of Christianity, if I could continue to consider myself Christian, and if I WANTED to continue to consider myself Christian.  Then learning more about the history of the church, how the Bible was really written, just added to the struggle.   It caused me a few years of struggle.

 

I'm pretty good with it now.  I decided I didn't care whether other people thought I was Christian or not, if they thought I was doing it right, believing it right.   In a lot of ways, I'm probably more Deist. I believe there is something out there, I think that the Biblical account has a strong hand of man in it (rather than fully divine) but that it's as good a framework as any, and its the one I'm familiar with so I'm going with it.   I looked up Progressive Christianity at one point and it was pretty close.  Basically I think Christian is just one of the ways for people to have faith in something bigger than they are, to hear a comforting message, and have a community of peers, but it's not the only way or even necessarily the best way.  I think much (most?) of the Bible is allegorical, metaphorical and not literal.  

 

We attend a UMC where the pastor basically told us that it was not necessary to believe everything in the official stance of the church or even everything he preached in order to belong.    There's very little you MUST believe this, this, this and this, or you are wrong and will burn in hell.

[ktgrok]

 I believe there is something out there, I think that the Biblical account has a strong hand of man in it (rather than fully divine) but that it's as good a framework as any, and its the one I'm familiar with so I'm going with it.   I looked up Progressive Christianity at one point and it was pretty close.  Basically I think Christian is just one of the ways for people to have faith in something bigger than they are, to hear a comforting message, and have a community of peers, but it's not the only way or even necessarily the best way. 

 

 

This exactly encapsulates my views. Especially the bolded. 

[Greta]

Alternatively, is there a religion I could actually believe? I just don't see it :(

Does the "story" of any religion resonate with you? Not because you believe it to be literally true, but because it speaks to you on some level, it touches you in some way? It inspires you, uplifts you?

 

I think that our culture has reduced faith to mere intellectual assent. But it is so much more than that, and I'm not even sure that part is necessary. Perhaps the story doesn't have to be literally, factually, historically true in order to be mythically, spiritually true. If it has beauty and value for you, does it matter if it has facts?

 

These questions have been on my mind a lot lately. I hope you find the answers you're seeking.

[eternalsummer]

I haven't read in detail and will later, but briefly:

I am not a good singer.  A choir would be weird.  That is kind of one of the benefits of belonging to a religious tradition, I think - you don't have to figure these things out for yourself, or actively join different organizations.  It's just part of everyday life for religious people.

 

I find metaphorical value in many religious texts and stories, esp. Judeo-Christian ones as they reflect the way my society has formed, etc.  I just think it would be weird for me to join a church.  I can't pray - there's no one there for me!  I would feel like an imposter.

 

The idea of a physical separate God in the sky somewhere is a non-starter for me.  The idea of a positive organizing force to the universe is possible, but really any anthropomorphization at all makes it impossible to believe.

 

 

Community organizations are a good idea, especially ones with a concrete mission.  I would like to get the kids involved in community service work eventually anyway.  I guess I am just wishing all of this could be done for me and I didn't have to go look for it, hah :)

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

That's nice for you. It brought me years of suffering. 

 

But maybe that's because my moral alignment is out of whack or something...

 

 

I wonder if this is the difference between a person deciding to exercise for HERSELF, and even though she feels silly dressing up in her tights and tank top and going to a gym full of equipment she barely understands and "faking it" til she makes it ...

 

and a woman who feels external pressure to meet some beauty ideal and therefore goes through the motions, "faking it" to fit in to someone else's box?

 

I really have no idea and I don't know your personal history.  But I want to clarify that I'm speaking of a person who WANTS religion, yet feels awkward about it all and not a woman who is quietly dying inside because the alternative is (for example) being ostracized by her patriarchal cult.  

[Rosie_0801]

 

I must be weird in that I'm one of the few who doesn't miss the church community or rituals. 

 

Americans seem more disposed towards community in religion than Aussies.

 

 

 

 

Crimson Wife said:

 

 

If church isn't for you due to your non-belief, you need to work hard to find something to replace it.

 

Not really. Not all people are born with the need to find a guru to follow and not being a jerk isn't that difficult.

 

 

 

MercyA said:

 

 

 Who said this thread was specifically for atheists? ananemone asked, "Alternatively, is there a religion I could actually believe?  I just don't see it." Who is going to reply to that question in the affirmative, other than religious people?

 

Or non-religious people. As several have done in this thread. As I said somewhere else on here recently, it is not unknown for non-religious people to direct their friends to religion when that's what they need.

[eternalsummer]

I guess everything has pros and cons.  I've never been religious (I was raised largely without religion, except for my grandmother who was a converted Reform Jew and took me with her to services when I spent the summers and occasional holidays there).  So maybe I have a somewhat rosy picture of being part of a religious community.

 

I guess some of my disconnect is that while I do believe in many of the same precepts as most religions, both the concrete beliefs and for the most part the sacred texts are a sticking point.

 

The Tao Te Ching I can understand and take seriously more or less in its entirety, but I know nothing about the religion of Taoism, and it's not my culture anyway.

 

The Bible has a lot of good material, but I just find some (okay, many) of the episodes related in it either unbelievable or sort of contradictory (that is, the author implies that a good action has been taken when it is clearly not a good action to me) or both.  That in turn makes it hard for me to take the religion itself seriously.  I mean, if your holy book says that a man was actually willing to slit his son's throat because a voice from the sky told him to, and that that was good, how do I take anything else the book says seriously?  If you're telling me (as two very kind Mormon missionaries did) that these new books of the bible were discovered by a guy written on tablets of gold but no one is allowed to see them, and by the way the Israelites were in Mexico before Native Americans (or something like that), how am I supposed to view anything else the religion says as credible?  (separate, of course, of the things that seem to me to be sort of precursors to the religion, like commonly held moral beliefs).

 

I guess I see religion largely as a convenient and useful vehicle for those moral beliefs, and I wish I could join the vehicle for the benefits it has, but it just seems so ridiculous in reality that I can't.

 

I do believe there is a positive organizing force to the universe.  I believe there is something after death, but I don't know what (like with a black hole - we just don't get any information back from the other side).  I believe there is Right and Wrong and that it is important to do Right, but I don't believe there is a God (like, a concrete God) who invented everything and decided what was Right.  I dunno, I confuse myself, I guess.

 

 

Getting all of these things piecemeal (choirs and community events and etc.) is good but it does lack the overarching purpose and sense of belonging, I think.  Possibly part of the trouble is that all institutions in the west are somewhat diminished from generations ago - people don't trust government, they are leaving religion, they don't trust the media, etc.  They are even leaving public schools in favor of individual learning, haha :)

 

Someone mentioned Waldorf - man, have we had a time with Waldorf.  DD11 was in a Waldorf charter for a year and a half, and it was in many ways very good - they are big on community and moral values and service and ritual and definitely the Group Sing, which is great.

 

Unfortunately they are a bit nutty.  But I am thinking about co-opting some of their rituals to use in our home.  I just wish I could find a source of ritual where the rituals also meant something that I believed in, you know?  I can't just say a prayer or a phrase or sing a hymn if I don't believe that I'm singing it to anyone, or that there is any concrete reason to sing it.

[Rosie_0801]

Unfortunately they are a bit nutty.  But I am thinking about co-opting some of their rituals to use in our home.  I just wish I could find a source of ritual where the rituals also meant something that I believed in, you know?  I can't just say a prayer or a phrase or sing a hymn if I don't believe that I'm singing it to anyone, or that there is any concrete reason to sing it.

 

Pagans seem to like spelling magic with a k, magick. I find it an irritating word, but the idea is useful. One definition I work with is the things we do to change our perception. Prayers or hymns or whatever are, to me, just magick. They keep you focused on a thing you're trying to keep focused on. You might want to sing to yourself, your higher self, the universe, someone you are missing, the fabric of reality, what or whoever. 

 

I had someone the other day tell me she was going to pray for me, even though I don't believe in it. I do, I just don't believe in it the way she does. She believes she is petitioning her god on my behalf that He might pull a few strings in my favour. I, on the other hand, imagine that into her standing with me, part of my support team. To her those ideas are probably two very different things. To me they are the same.

 

It sounds like you need to define what you need a ritual for. Once you know what the purpose of it is, you'll find something to do the job. What rituals do you have? Ritual is only a religious word for habit. What comforting habits do you have? What motivating habits do you have? 

[Carrie12345]

I have not made the observation that people who do not attend church are less community minded or altruistic than people who do.

There are plenty of secular way to serve the community and look "beyond their own selfish interests".

 

On a societal scale, I have not seen institutional religion at the forefront of working and advocating for social equality and justice.

 

This.

 

My family is active in many diverse circles.  We're close to a lot of non-religious, not-so-religious, religious-but-not-Christian, AND Christian people in a wide variety of contexts. And I can't think of a single group that doesn't have a community service element.  Maybe our Lego Club doesn't have an official cause, but the majority of participants overlap into our other groups that do. And they definitely don't line up with their "religious rank".

 

Animal rescues, homeless vets, food banks, soup kitchens, clothing drives, Syrian refugees, road clean ups, nature centers, domestic violence shelters, literacy programs, Red Cross (and similar), resource conservation, Head Start, marathons and walks for every cause out there... My kids have been participating with *all of their friends pretty much forever, and now their peer groups (well, obviously for my oldest ones) are identifying, planning, and organizing the activities on their own.

 

Interestingly enough, many of these activities, organized by a range of the "non-religious" (be they atheist or Other,) are done with the help of donated and/or rented church space, and some are done *for the churches' own outreach.  Because the kids don't really care what anyone believes, so long as people are being helped.

[chiguirre]

 I just wish I could find a source of ritual where the rituals also meant something that I believed in, you know?  I can't just say a prayer or a phrase or sing a hymn if I don't believe that I'm singing it to anyone, or that there is any concrete reason to sing it.

 

I find that seeing rituals as a way of marking the passage of time and the turning of the seasons is meaningful enough for me. That gives me a reason to sing or set aside a few minutes to contemplate the changes that come with the seasons and appreciate their beauty. I'm not doing it for any external entity but for my own well being. It reminds me to value life and not get caught up in the daily whirlwind. That's a concrete reason to sing.

[ktgrok]

 

The Bible has a lot of good material, but I just find some (okay, many) of the episodes related in it either unbelievable or sort of contradictory (that is, the author implies that a good action has been taken when it is clearly not a good action to me) or both.  That in turn makes it hard for me to take the religion itself seriously.  I mean, if your holy book says that a man was actually willing to slit his son's throat because a voice from the sky told him to, and that that was good, how do I take anything else the book says seriously?

 

 

I guess when I look at such things I think of them as allegory, or object lessons. Like Aesop's fables.

[Bluegoat]

There are a lot of good church choirs out there stuffed full of people who aren't especially CHristian.  The arts are an important way for many people to connect with something trancendant, even if they don't connect in other ways.

 

Faith is a funny thing, the idea that it is willed. 

 

I think your thought about the role of religion in society are interesting.  Something else I would say is that in most cultures, religion is the main way that people talk about meaning - there is a large specialized vocabulary, for example, to talk about what it means to exist, or relationships between people, with nature, in quite a different way than you find in the sciences.  A lot of the ritual in religion, be it private meditation or something communal like liturgy, are meant to allow people and communities to seek or reflect on meaning in the world around them and in their own actions - they provide a framework and a discipline that creates a kind of accountability, often just with our own conscience.  Reflection is made an explicit part of the process, seeking connectivity, and its done in a way where we can do it as a group or communicate it very accurately with a group.

 

Philosophy is of course also able to give thoughts on meaning and language for meaning, and psychology can give us practice, but once you take those and make them communal and create some sort of ritual out of the practice, we call it a religion.

 

If you are looking for a religion you could believe, I'd take Rosie's advice, you need to start with what you believe, not what you don't.  I'd try looking at some sort of Platonism.  Unfortunatly it is closer to philosophy than religion, but if it resonates, quite a few religions are essentially communal and ritual Platonism.

[Bluegoat]

I am not generally bitter about religion - I have no bitterness about growing up Catholic, for example - but I do have quite a lot in regard to the combo of homeschoolers + religion. Particularly homeschoolers + Christianity. 

 

Maybe homeschoolers just aren't the best advertisment for the faith where I live. But you could not get a less virtuous group of people if you tried. Very insular. Very loving and giving to anyone in the 'in group'. But woe betide if you are in the 'out' group. 

 

There are individual exceptions, of course.

 

I see this some here as well.  It's a very paerticular kind of Christianity though, and it seems to almost exclusivly be brought here from a way of thinking that developed in the US which is very much into spreading themselves and their methods around.  Even groups here that didn't used to seem that way sometimes change after one of these very wealthy American groups starts sending them money, materials, and pastors.  So you can find a group of Baptists or even Lutherans which were much more like European Baptists and Lutherans who suddenly change their services and music and start being like a tv evangelical group, talking about YEC, singing different music and changing their services. 

 

Once it arrives though it seems to start creeping into other groups.  I find it really disconcerting.

[SparklyUnicorn]

OP, I went through a similar period of searching and wondering.

 

I'm over it.  LOL

 

It's personal and you might come to a very different conclusion, but my conclusion is I really don't need a religious club to live a fulfilling life.  I can't go along with beliefs and behaviors that I find embarrassing (for lack of a better way of putting it) just for the sake of acceptance in a club.  

 

I also chalk this up to the fact that even though I'm an atheist, I don't live in a world of atheists.  I'm surrounded by messages and beliefs that are in opposition to what I believe.  Some of that stuff wears off on you whether you like it or not. 

[mellifera33]

I'm not caught up on this thread because my 3 y/o is crawling on me, but I've often thought that this song is almost a creed for the nonreligious. 

[Bluegoat]

I guess everything has pros and cons.  I've never been religious (I was raised largely without religion, except for my grandmother who was a converted Reform Jew and took me with her to services when I spent the summers and occasional holidays there).  So maybe I have a somewhat rosy picture of being part of a religious community.

 

I guess some of my disconnect is that while I do believe in many of the same precepts as most religions, both the concrete beliefs and for the most part the sacred texts are a sticking point.

 

The Tao Te Ching I can understand and take seriously more or less in its entirety, but I know nothing about the religion of Taoism, and it's not my culture anyway.

 

The Bible has a lot of good material, but I just find some (okay, many) of the episodes related in it either unbelievable or sort of contradictory (that is, the author implies that a good action has been taken when it is clearly not a good action to me) or both.  That in turn makes it hard for me to take the religion itself seriously.  I mean, if your holy book says that a man was actually willing to slit his son's throat because a voice from the sky told him to, and that that was good, how do I take anything else the book says seriously?  If you're telling me (as two very kind Mormon missionaries did) that these new books of the bible were discovered by a guy written on tablets of gold but no one is allowed to see them, and by the way the Israelites were in Mexico before Native Americans (or something like that), how am I supposed to view anything else the religion says as credible?  (separate, of course, of the things that seem to me to be sort of precursors to the religion, like commonly held moral beliefs).

 

I guess I see religion largely as a convenient and useful vehicle for those moral beliefs, and I wish I could join the vehicle for the benefits it has, but it just seems so ridiculous in reality that I can't.

 

I do believe there is a positive organizing force to the universe.  I believe there is something after death, but I don't know what (like with a black hole - we just don't get any information back from the other side).  I believe there is Right and Wrong and that it is important to do Right, but I don't believe there is a God (like, a concrete God) who invented everything and decided what was Right.  I dunno, I confuse myself, I guess.

 

 

Getting all of these things piecemeal (choirs and community events and etc.) is good but it does lack the overarching purpose and sense of belonging, I think.  Possibly part of the trouble is that all institutions in the west are somewhat diminished from generations ago - people don't trust government, they are leaving religion, they don't trust the media, etc.  They are even leaving public schools in favor of individual learning, haha :)

 

Someone mentioned Waldorf - man, have we had a time with Waldorf.  DD11 was in a Waldorf charter for a year and a half, and it was in many ways very good - they are big on community and moral values and service and ritual and definitely the Group Sing, which is great.

 

Unfortunately they are a bit nutty.  But I am thinking about co-opting some of their rituals to use in our home.  I just wish I could find a source of ritual where the rituals also meant something that I believed in, you know?  I can't just say a prayer or a phrase or sing a hymn if I don't believe that I'm singing it to anyone, or that there is any concrete reason to sing it.

 

It sounds in part like you might find it useful to look at more in depth treatments of how those kinds of stories are understood.  In some cases it won't help - the story about Joseph Smith is meant to be understood as historic fact in a very modern sense, so if you don't think it's credible, you just don't.  OTOH, stories about people doing bad things in religious texts don't necessarily mean that god thinks those acts were actually good, only that the people writing them down thought he did.  Anthromorphization is an interesting topic as well, it isn't always as concrete as it seems. 

[Lady Florida.]

I'm not caught up on this thread because my 3 y/o is crawling on me, but I've often thought that this song is almost a creed for the nonreligious. 

 

Interesting. I've never heard (or heard of) that song.

 

This is our (non-religious) Christmas song.

 

 

[Greta]

 I just wish I could find a source of ritual where the rituals also meant something that I believed in, you know?  I can't just say a prayer or a phrase or sing a hymn if I don't believe that I'm singing it to anyone, or that there is any concrete reason to sing it.

 

The sheer joy of singing seems to me to be sufficient reason to sing.   :001_smile:

 

And regarding prayer (or something "prayer-like") I googled "non-religious prayers" and found some interesting stuff!

 

http://secularseasons.org/celebrations/graces.html

 

http://www.spiralgoddess.com/InterFaith_Daily_Prayers.html

[Happy2BaMom]

...

 

Personally, I feel like the benefit is even greater.  Religion facilitates and channels many of the social instincts I think we all have - the Group Sing, for instance (doesn't every society have a version of the Group Sing?), and meaningful seasonal festivals, and community service, and identity, and friendship with likeminded people, and a million other things - relative certainty about life after death (the best thing I can say is that it is like a black hole, which is kind of scary), a concrete code of behavior, a sense that there is someone (God) who loves you despite your worldly problems, etc.

 

Unfortunately I can't get any of these benefits because I can't force myself into faith.

 

Do any non-religious people feel the same way? Is this a postmodern problem?  Is there a solution?

 

Alternatively, is there a religion I could actually believe?  I just don't see it 

 

 

It sounds like you are missing having a cohesive community and a shared spiritual purpose / sense of meaning / philosophy / joint experience(s). That primarily involves intimacy with others.

 

That's different than finding a personal spiritual path that includes most of the elements you mentioned.

 

For example, I am very dedicated in studying a Druid spiritual path right now, that involves weekly lessons, working with a tutor, fairly rigorous personal spiritual exercises, seasonal ceremonies, etc etc., but although there are many Druid groups in many areas of the country, I live far from any, so the chances of my having any truly shared religious community, in any kind of 'macro' or meaningful way, is.....um, well, NONE.  However, I am deeply satisfied by the path I found and am deeply relieved about not having to experience cognitive dissonance about what is taught as part of the path. (Not trying to be snarky here toward any other path, just relating my personal experience.)

 

IMHO, unless you are: 1) willing to go "universal spirituality", such as UU, or 2) somehow get past your sticking points around the tenants of Christianity (or possibly Judaism), there is no solution to your conundrum of trying to have group intimacy and near-complete personal spiritual integrity in the same place. You can find group intimacy in other non-profit / charitable groups, you can find a spiritual path that is deeply yours, but the U.S. is still very much a Christian culture when it comes to group spirituality, and in many areas, that's about the only option for those who want both at the same time in the same place. 

 

I don't mean to be pessimistic, just realistic. Perhaps squarely facing the competing, and fairly mutually antagonistic, desires you have will help you gain clarity on which desire/need is the one that must be fulfilled, and which can be compromised to achieve that end?? 

Edited January 10, 2017 by Happy2BaMom

[Bluegoat]

Practically, sometimes working backwards can turn out well - you find something that appeals to you in terms of disapline or aesthetics or values, and try it out for a while - like, six months, say, and see what you think of it then. Sometimes things seem to fit together better.  It's not the way we normally think of doing things but it has the advantage that it gives you options that you find actually around you.   In some places though, the options are so limited you may not be able to find a place like that.

[MercyA]

Or non-religious people. As several have done in this thread. As I said somewhere else on here recently, it is not unknown for non-religious people to direct their friends to religion when that's what they need.

 

Sorry, Rosie, I didn't mean to offend. You're right, of course, non-religious people have done that on this thread and elsewhere.

 

I guess the idea that someone would recommend a religion to someone else when they personally believe it to be false (or, at least, imaginary) is a bit foreign to me. However, if one looks at religion as a way to meet personal needs, help others, find community, etc. rather than a way to know an actual, living God, than I can see why a non-religious person might recommend it to a friend.

[TravelingChris]

I have known people who attended Episcopalian services but weren't believers.  There is a man attending my church (PCUSA) whose beliefs don't seem to be Christian. He has been attending for a long time, much longer than me.  I also know a woman who attended Military chapel services and Protestant Women of the Chapel and she wasn't a believer. 

[MotherGoose]

I guess everything has pros and cons. I've never been religious (I was raised largely without religion, except for my grandmother who was a converted Reform Jew and took me with her to services when I spent the summers and occasional holidays there). So maybe I have a somewhat rosy picture of being part of a religious community.

 

I guess some of my disconnect is that while I do believe in many of the same precepts as most religions, both the concrete beliefs and for the most part the sacred texts are a sticking point.

 

The Tao Te Ching I can understand and take seriously more or less in its entirety, but I know nothing about the religion of Taoism, and it's not my culture anyway.

 

The Bible has a lot of good material, but I just find some (okay, many) of the episodes related in it either unbelievable or sort of contradictory (that is, the author implies that a good action has been taken when it is clearly not a good action to me) or both. That in turn makes it hard for me to take the religion itself seriously. I mean, if your holy book says that a man was actually willing to slit his son's throat because a voice from the sky told him to, and that that was good, how do I take anything else the book says seriously? If you're telling me (as two very kind Mormon missionaries did) that these new books of the bible were discovered by a guy written on tablets of gold but no one is allowed to see them, and by the way the Israelites were in Mexico before Native Americans (or something like that), how am I supposed to view anything else the religion says as credible? (separate, of course, of the things that seem to me to be sort of precursors to the religion, like commonly held moral beliefs).

 

I guess I see religion largely as a convenient and useful vehicle for those moral beliefs, and I wish I could join the vehicle for the benefits it has, but it just seems so ridiculous in reality that I can't.

 

 

I do believe there is a positive organizing force to the universe. I believe there is something after death, but I don't know what (like with a black hole - we just don't get any information back from the other side). I believe there is Right and Wrong and that it is important to do Right, but I don't believe there is a God (like, a concrete God) who invented everything and decided what was Right. I dunno, I confuse myself, I guess.

 

 

Getting all of these things piecemeal (choirs and community events and etc.) is good but it does lack the overarching purpose and sense of belonging, I think. Possibly part of the trouble is that all institutions in the west are somewhat diminished from generations ago - people don't trust government, they are leaving religion, they don't trust the media, etc. They are even leaving public schools in favor of individual learning, haha :)

 

Someone mentioned Waldorf - man, have we had a time with Waldorf. DD11 was in a Waldorf charter for a year and a half, and it was in many ways very good - they are big on community and moral values and service and ritual and definitely the Group Sing, which is great.

 

Unfortunately they are a bit nutty. But I am thinking about co-opting some of their rituals to use in our home. I just wish I could find a source of ritual where the rituals also meant something that I believed in, you know? I can't just say a prayer or a phrase or sing a hymn if I don't believe that I'm singing it to anyone, or that there is any concrete reason to sing it.

With all due respect, please know I'm not telling you all will be well if you are a Christian or anything else. I've had definite religious struggles myself and I'm now Catholic and very much at peace. I just say this because it does seem that you are searching for something. I normally do not intrude on conversations to impose my beliefs, and I'm not trying to do that here.

 

However,it does sound like you are searching for something. Many Christians you encounter in homeschooling circles do believe the entire Bible literally. The Catholic Church teaches that we must believe the gospels of Christ literally, but not the Old Testament. That excludes most of the "crazier" stories. Books that helped me when I went through this are "The case for Christ" and "The case for Faith" by Lee Strobel. He is a journalist, and set out to prove that God/Christ didn't exist--he was an atheist. Through his research, he came to believe. The books are matter I found fact and not at all preachy, and are in a q and a format. He's not Catholic. Once again, I hope that you don't take this as trying to insert my beliefs on you, but I'm trying to answer some of the questions you raise.

[Onceuponatime]

I'm not caught up on this thread because my 3 y/o is crawling on me, but I've often thought that this song is almost a creed for the nonreligious.

 

What is the name of the song? I can't open the link on my tablet. Thanks.

[Rosie_0801]

Sorry, Rosie, I didn't mean to offend. You're right, of course, non-religious people have done that on this thread and elsewhere.

 

I guess the idea that someone would recommend a religion to someone else when they personally believe it to be false (or, at least, imaginary) is a bit foreign to me. However, if one looks at religion as a way to meet personal needs, help others, find community, etc. rather than a way to know an actual, living God, than I can see why a non-religious person might recommend it to a friend.

 

The bolded and unbolded are more or less the same thing to me. I directed a friend to the EO church because that's how she needed to needed to know HER actual, living god. My being an atheist is entirely irrelevant to that. I wasn't the one needing to be EO.

 

I wouldn't recommend it to everyone, but there's a theory of spirituality in the Higgenbotham's Christopaganism book I think you'd find interesting. It's probably on the web somewhere, but since my book is out in the shed somewhere, I can't tell you whose theory it was or what they called it.  :angry:  However, sorting through books in the shed is on this afternoon's agenda, :ack2: so if I find the book, I'll come back with those details.

[lanalouwho]

I could have written the OP myself. A few months ago, I even tried going to the local Baptist Church. I have friends there. I have family there. I figured if I could find the community I was craving anywhere, it would be there.

The people were super nice and welcoming, but I always felt like a fraud. And trying to fake it is exhausting. I remember asking DH if there was such a thing as an atheist church. (Anarchists have meetings, so why not, right?)

Anyway, I have no answers for you, but I can definitely commiserate. I hope you can find something that works for you.

 

Sent from my HTCD160LVW using Tapatalk

[MercyA]

The bolded and unbolded are more or less the same thing to me. I directed a friend to the EO church because that's how she needed to know HER actual, living god. My being an atheist is entirely irrelevant to that. I wasn't the one needing to be EO.

 

I wouldn't recommend it to everyone, but there's a theory of spirituality in the Higgenbotham's Christopaganism book I think you'd find interesting. It's probably on the web somewhere, but since my book is out in the shed somewhere, I can't tell you whose theory it was or what they called it.  :angry:  However, sorting through books in the shed is on this afternoon's agenda, :ack2: so if I find the book, I'll come back with those details.

 

That's an interesting way of looking at it, Rosie. I just can't get behind the idea that "god" is basically a concept that fulfills people's needs, when I know Him to be an actual, active, living Person. He is Who He is, not who I might make Him to be. I'm not a philosopher or an apologist, so I'll just leave it at that.  :)

 

Good luck on your book sorting! 

[Rosie_0801]

That's an interesting way of looking at it, Rosie. I just can't get behind the idea that "god" is basically a concept that fulfills people's needs, when I know Him to be an actual, active, living Person. He is Who He is, not who I might make Him to be. I'm not a philosopher or an apologist, so I'll just leave it at that.  :)

 

I have the occasional flash of post-modernism. It can happen to anyone. :p

 

As to the bolded, well that's the believers' business, not mine.

[MercyA]

dp

Edited January 11, 2017 by MercyA