Can a parent really do better than the experts?

[MelissaM]

Crazy question: Is an untrained parent really able to provide a rigorous education for their children? I do mean in general, but more specifically mothers with more than 2 children. Can a mother reasonably balance raising babies, caring for the home, cooking meals, and the very demanding tasks associated with rigorously educating the older children?

 

I hsed for 7 years and have been posting here (the older boards) for about 6 years so I am not a newbie or a heckler trying to create havoc. I am generally questioning is my problem ME (meaning am I a lazy teacher), are my children "average" and I expect too much, or are the stories of children years ahead of their peers (a la SWB) pumped up to make hsing appear that much better than ps.

 

I don't know. It's all so confusing.

[GothicGyrl]

Only one of my children are above average. And I don't worry about the other one (who is actually right about average). I don't strive to make them way above everyone else because my reasons for homeschooling, even though they are academic, are not such that I want to make my kids top of everything.

 

I've only got 2, but I stopped comparing myself to other homeschoolers a long time ago because I realized my kids were not their kids and I was not them.

 

IMHO, average is not a bad thing. Average is perfectly fine. *I* am only average. I am nothing special or above average. I want my kids to be better than me, but I'm not going to burn them out doing so. If my 6th grader isn't complaining about doing Algebra 2 and is doing it to a passing grade and my 10th grader isn't complaining that she's upset her sister is "smarter than her"... I'm doing good, then. :)

 

I read what everyone has for their kids in their sig lines and it stresses me out reading them! :) It's not a bad thing at all, because your kids are not my kids and vice versa, but I guess I'm truly just so laid back, that I can see my kids are just as smart as other's kids, only you can't quiz my kids to prove this because they'd fail. But give them some glue/toothpicks/popscicle sticks and I've got some serious building going on in my house.

 

All of that to say--worry creates stress, stress leads to an angry mommy. Stop stressing and worrying and do what YOU think is best for your kids. IMHO, only one of your kids (the 7th grader) should be doing anything "strenuous"--the rest should be sitting and listening to mommy talk. :)

 

As for your first question-- I think there truly are some experts out there that might know better than me on most things. DH knows physics better than me. I know biology better than him. The catch is that I am not trying to give my kids a "really rigorous education" and I never would either because I think it is overkill. Just focus on educating them to the best of their and your ability and stop trying to "out rigor" the Joneses.

 

kwim? :)

[Deece in MN]

The possiblity it there for parents to do better than experts, but the same possiblity is there for them to not do as well.

 

I don't think parents have to be experts in anything to teach their children. What they need to do is provide the right environment. And, yes, this takes commitment and work.

 

I do think there is some sacrifice involved, also. You can't do everything and do it all well. Therefore, you need to choose what is important to you. Your house may not be as spotless as you would like or you may not get as much exercising done or on and on. It is a season and as your family grows and changes you will have the opportunity to refocus as priorities change.

 

If hs'ing is important, then you need to give it proper attention. If you put in the time and effort it takes to provide your dc with the tools they need to do well, you will be rewarded with a job well done. I think it would be very hard to fail if the effort is put into hs'ing.

 

I do think that if you cannot or will not put in the time and effort to make hs'ing work, then you can/will fail and the children would be better off in the ps system (academically anyway).

 

I struggle with this constantly. I truly believe in hs for our family and my dc want to continue on with their studies at home. I have to keep hs'ing top priority so that I put the time and effort into making it work. Some days are better than others and once in a while I am afraid I will fail. I try to just keep plugging along and doing the best I can and continue to make the effort to give my dc what they need to succeed.

 

Wow, I really rambled on there. Oh, I do want to say that when I used the word "you", I wasn't meaning you specifically I was addressing the larger "you".

 

If hs'ing is important to you, you will do well. Try not to worry and enjoy the journey.

[j.griff]

My oldest has NO desire to "learn" from "the experts", IMO, there ARE no "experts" on learning. Every child is DIFFERENT, every child learns differently, and different situations are best for different children. Some may thrive in a public or private school setting, some may thrive with a private tutor, and some thrive at home with their parents teaching them.

If you're having problems achieving YOUR set goals for your children, then you're probably expecting too much. IMO, the main goal of homeschooling (at least for us), is to teach my children HOW to learn- I don't give much of a flip WHAT they learn or when, as long as they know HOW.

Why would you want a "rigorous" education? That sounds depressing and like there's no time for real life.

"Experts" may drill a child to near death, and that child still may never retain a lick of what they were drilled on.

[MelissaM]

When we compare education in the US to other countries we can see that the US is behind and desperately needs to step it up. Is it not the same for our own home schools? If anything, should we not be able to provide, at bare minimum, the level of education that the public school provides?

[LG Gone Wild]

Look, it isn't easy any way it's done. If your children are average, they would be average at school or at home. And anyway, experts aren't the end all and be all of education. Maybe they aren't as lazy as you claim yourself to be, maybe they are. While they don't have your obstacles, they have their own: large class sizes, obnoxious parents, lazy parents, disruptive children, school politics, PTA politics, negative work environments, plus their own domestic concerns.

 

I confess that I expect to raiser uber classical kids and will probably drive them insane while attempting to do so. But, I would be doing that if my kiddos went to a brick and mortar school. It's the Asian/Jewish in me. I constantly have to remind myself to chill out and reiterate that I want my kids to really know something rather than just score well on tests.

[Miss Peregrine]

I don't consider school teachers "experts" :)

[nancypants]

Crazy question: Is an untrained parent really able to provide a rigorous education for their children? I do mean in general, but more specifically mothers with more than 2 children. Can a mother reasonably balance raising babies, caring for the home, cooking meals, and the very demanding tasks associated with rigorously educating the older children?

 

I hsed for 7 years and have been posting here (the older boards) for about 6 years so I am not a newbie or a heckler trying to create havoc. I am generally questioning is my problem ME (meaning am I a lazy teacher), are my children "average" and I expect too much, or are the stories of children years ahead of their peers (a la SWB) pumped up to make hsing appear that much better than ps.

 

I don't know. It's all so confusing.

 

I'm reading this question on a really bad day.

 

As close as I am to pulling my hair out and as near as I am to tears (right on the brink) because my second son will not work without my eyes directly on him, I still have to say that I see homeschooling working and I believe in it because I believe in individuality. I want to foster individuality in my children.

 

Beyond that, today I'm not in the frame of mind to defend homeschooling. I'm sick. My house is a mess and one of my boys is fighting school at every turn. Still... I look at where they are and I know without a doubt that they are further along in their education, and especially their sense of self, than they would be in their respective grades at school. And where they are not further along they are being individually challenged and/or allowed to struggle to mastery without the same kind of pressure (and without slipping through the cracks) they would receive at school.

 

I probably needed to read this post today. I was thinking of quitting my day job!! :o

[Scarlett]

Whenever I begin to freak out about my own abilities as a teacher I just phone up my best friend whose ds10 is failing several subjects in 5th grade ps and then I feel better. :eek: Seriously, I don't feel better that HE is failing, but I am then forced to remember that I could hardly do worse than the public schools academically and I KNOW I am doing better with the character/social/religious training.

[MelissaM]

It is about so much more than academics.

 

Thanks for reminding me.

[GothicGyrl]

When we compare education in the US to other countries we can see that the US is behind and desperately needs to step it up. Is it not the same for our own home schools? If anything, should we not be able to provide, at bare minimum, the level of education that the public school provides?

 

And I DO provide that, as I am sure all here do. :) You are absolutely correct that we lag way behind other countries in education, but I'm not holding myself up to their standards, am I? The difference between the US and other countries, is that IMHO, the US started off wrong with education in the first place. The focus of education in other countries has always been top notch, while the US (early on) was just focusing on the 3 r's. And in some places, that's all they are still focusing on.

 

The US has never tried to rise above that. Even our colleges are out of reach for the majority of the population, which is so not fair. In other countries, "college" education is just the "next step" and always has been.

 

My whole point above was that I am not going to stress my kids out nor myself, trying to out rigor the Joneses. I can't and I won't. While I feel I am giving them a perfectly well enough education, I also recognize my oldest child's (in)ability to do the same stuff her sister is doing. But at the same time, there are things that my oldest does that my youngest wouldn't even attempt.

 

That's the beauty of homeschooling. That I (and all of us, in a sense) can recognize each child's abilities and tailor our education plan to that. While I do want my oldest heading off to college, I recognize that she just is not college material (not right now) and if I try to give her a "rigorous" education, she will shut down on me, likely to the point of my not getting her back, kwim? So I've accepted the fact that I've got a "beauty school student" on my hands (and a vet-in training, for the other) and I work to help her achieve that goal.

 

It might not be what YOU want for YOUR kids, but I don't see homeschooling as a competition of any kind and honestly, I get frustrated when I see stats that proclaim homeschooling's finest. Because we aren't in any kind of competition with anyone and we shouldn't be. We should all just be focusing on our own kids and doing what we can that is best for them.

 

If your kid rises above mine, I'm not going to cry over it and beat myself over the head wondering "what if I had just.." because that does not do her justice and my primary goal is HER. I'm not in this to compare my kids to anyone else's nor am I comparing methods or trying to find the "absolute best of the best" out there because I will not set my kid up for failure. I work with what I know (her abilities that is) and I teach her based on that. If her SAT scores aren't up as high as your child's, I'm not going to cry over it and neither will she.

 

But I say all of this because I think SAT scores are overrated anyway (and part of the education problem in this country), just as I think forcing them to learn a foreign language to graduate is sad as well. If you think I am a failure at homeschooling because I'm not running myself dry for not finding the "best of the best", then so be it. I am not doing this for you and as long as I remember that, my kids WILL succeed.

 

(the you being the general you, ok? I'm not angry at you, Melissa, or anyone else. It's just a discussion.)

[Crissy]

If anything, should we not be able to provide, at bare minimum, the level of education that the public school provides?

 

How do we go about determining the level of education public schools actually provide? Doesn't that vary as much in a public setting as it does at home? Can a public school actually *make* a student become educated to any particular level? Or does a student's desire to become educated determine the outcome no matter the situation?

[MelissaM]

if you and I were face to face we would probably be best of friends. ;)

 

And, no, I'm not kidding.

[elegantlion]

I don't believe any "expert" will take the time and have the concern for my child's education the way I will. There are subjects that I don't feel qualified to teach as he gets older, but I can certainly facilitate them.

 

Is an "expert" going to take time out of a subject to work on character issues that arise during teaching time? As a parent I can.

[GothicGyrl]

if you and I were face to face we would probably be best of friends. ;)

 

And, no, I'm not kidding.

:)

 

And to answer your other question--I don't juggle all of that other stuff. I get up in the morning, feed my animals, my kids make their own breakfast, I get coffee and then I sit on the computer until I am ready to teach. Everything else is ignored until school is done. I don't care about the dishes, my dirty floors, the unfolded clothes, the stinky dog, or dinner until school is done and that's that. :)

 

And above all else, DH knows this too. :p

[OH_Homeschooler]

You know, when I observe my three children and their different personalities and interests, I become more and more convinced that barring any major catastrophes, they're going to be who they're going to be whether they're homeschooled, public schooled, etc.

 

As long as I'm providing some stimulation for them, they're going to be just fine. I never thought I would be such a deterministic person, but there you have it. I'm in a hurry but otherwise I'd love to share details...but even the research generally backs up my anecdotal observations. Basically, if you're the best ever parent/teacher/whatever, the kids will turn out about the same as if you're a "pretty good" parent/teacher/whatever.

[JFSinIL]

are trained and expert in handling GROUPS of kids. They also have to meet the needs of whatever LD/special needs etc. kids are in the class. They (in our district at least) have to teach to the test to raise the school's overall scores. They (in our local school) do NOT have time to use the social studies or science materials provided with tax dollars as the administration insists they concentrate on math and language...which is tested. Logic/foreign language/geography etc are not touched at all.

 

I could NOT handle/lead the large and varied group of kids a public school teacher is trained to teach. I CAN teach one or two or more kids at home...and get to history/science/logic etc. With the extensive array of supporting materials now available to a homeschooler (including the advice of wise parents on this board!) it is not hard to offer a much more rigorous and broad education than is available at the local public school.;)

[Mama Lynx]

Even though I have the demands of a house and four children, each of those children is getting one-on-one, personalized tutoring in all subjects.

 

In a classroom, with an expert, they would not get that. They might get an excellent education from said expert, in a classroom. They might struggle and get nothing. If they struggle, said expert would mark down the earned grade, and move on. In my tutoring, if they struggle, I know and we work to teach and learn.

 

Will it look the same as what is taught/learned in a classroom? No. But I do think that one-on-one tutoring is the best type of learning situation, in general.

 

I've had teacher training/classes. Does that make me an expert? :) Those classes were all crap. Complete, utter, useless crap.

 

(Edited to add) Not that I don't think that home education can be worse than the public schools. Yes, it can. And even though I believe tutoring is best and I have the best situation for my kids, I do question, all the time, whether I am doing the best I can. That's my job - to do the best I can. So far, it's been far better than what the schools could have provided.

[Daisy]

I consider myself the expert. Okay, honestly, my Dh is a ps teacher with a master's degree in education. I have a BA in theology. Our education is as different as light is from day. Does his degree make him an expert at education? He doesn't seem to think so.

 

He says he learned a ton of theory all of which got chucked out the window with the next set of curriculum the district decided to buy. He suggests that most homeschooling parent have a better grasp on educational theory then most ps teachers. Because ps teachers just do the next thing they are told to do by the district.

 

Did he learn how to corral kids in college? Nope, that's ALL on-the-job training (hmm, I get that too). Granted he's had 15 years of training but he hasn't taught the same grade that entire time. So he has to relearn child development at each stage just like I have to.

 

So who is the expert? I happen to be an expert at MY children. I don't have to be an expert at anyone else's kid. My DH is an expert at playing the ps system. He is an expert at playing by the rules. He is an expert at making spread sheets that prove his children are learing so the admin stays off his back. But which of us is the better teacher? I would probably say he is (he is more patient). He would say I am.

 

As for who does a better job? Well, that depends on the motivation of the teacher. Who has the most passion? Who has the desire? Who has the commitment? Who have the drive to learn? Who isn't going to give up and just "do the next thing"? Who isn't going to give in and just teach to the test?

[Ria]

The answer in my case was yes, and is now no. When my chilldren were younger, I was able to give them a great education and I knew it. They thrived, I thrived, and life was good. Fast forward 16 years...I'm tired. I wasn't giving my best to my kids. High school and junior high brought a harsh reality - the kids in the public schools are taking foreign language from a fluent teacher, they have great science labs, there are honors classes, AP classes, etc.

 

My twins are now freshmen in college. We homeschooled, and used a cyber charter (but they were still at home), we enrolled them in a once-a-week classical program, they took classes at the community college and a local university. They got into great schools, dd got a full scholarship. I can look back and say I did just fine by them.

 

Now, however, I must face some unpleasant truths: I'm tired and I'm not giving my best to my children. We were in a co-op this year, but it has failed to meet academic expectations. My kids are bored and not challenged...and I know this, and I personally don't want to fix it anymore.

 

Gasp - I enrolled my 10th grader in public school last week. He loves it. He's got honors classes and is already feeling like he's working towards something...silly how a grade means more from a teacher than from me, lol. And...shock of shocks...we made the huge jump and enrolled the other three boys yesterday. It's done. I'm no longer a homeschooler. And I want to skip with joy, lol.

 

Can an untrained parent (and by this I assume you mean someone who is intelligent but not a teacher) give their children a great education? Absolutely, without a doubt. Can they also get tired and not do the best job? Absolutely. Homeschooling requires diligence, and not only on the part of the student.

 

I looked at myself and realized I was failing my kids - I was going through the motions, but the love of homeschooling was gone, and I was slacking. I enjoyed my years homeschooling, don't get me wrong, but I always said that I'd homeschool only as long as I could give my kids a better education than the public schools. These past few weeks I've realized that the truth of the matter is that the schools can do more than I can now.

 

And...I'm happy. Blissfully, contentedly happy, and so are the boys. And life is still good. :)

 

Ria

[Sandy in Indy]

When I was a ps middle school teacher, I tutored several homebound students. I was given THREE HOURS a week to get in the core subjects (LA, math, science, history). Those kids passed. I figure that surely I can do better at home with my kids. (And yes, I once considered myself one of those so-called experts...now I see many, many many hs parents who are much finer teachers than I ever was or will be.)

 

That said, I think there is pressure to produce "super students" as homeschoolers...as if we have to justify that, yes, we can do a better job than the ps. And yes, I often get caught up questioning if the hs courses I've chosen for my high schoolers are "rigorous" enough. I usually beat myself up a while before I get back to whatever made me chose that course in the first place. (Like right now there's a discussion on the hs board about Apologia Chemistry...threw me for a loop. But the bottom line is that my pharmacy-bound son has done well with both Chem courses and the university we're eyeing finds the material appropriate, so it's been "rigorous" enough for him.)

 

And while I homeschool so that my kids can have a great education, I also do so for other reasons. For our family, those things are equally important.

[Guest Lorna]

My mother is the head teacher of a small primary school (elementary). She did her first degree in Social Science and at the age of forty she decided to become a teacher. She studied for one year (mainly on classroom management) to become an 'expert'.

She is a very clever woman, but she by no means has any more knowledge than anyone else. I know she has a wonderful little school that gets good results.

Before Christmas she was telling me her staffing problems (someone was on maternity leave). She had to put classes together and change the syllabus for a bit. As long as things are ticking over it will be fine was her attitude. It reminded me a lot of the kind of situation most home schoolers beat themselves up about; perhaps a new baby in the house etc.

Real life happens. Teachers don't know it all. What they know mainly is about how to control a class and keep the majority of pupils up to scratch.

The advantage of home schooling is the lack of class control problems, the one to one attention and being able to go with the ability of the child. These are the things a teacher is 'an expert' in overcoming with a large group. The books and curriculum resources are the best 'experts' to teach the child and teachers rely on these as much as the home-schooler.

[fishnoises]

I don't know how teachers do it! Imagine a whole class filled with kids. Yikes. Also, about the expert thing, the only reason teachers are considered experts is because they had to get accredited or they would not be hired. There is no other way a parent is going to trust others with educating their children. Same is true with testing and grades. A parent cannot possibly know what is going on in the classroom without being there all day, every day. Parent-teacher meetings, tests and grades are all things that the experts have to be trained to do. Everything else is learned on the job (pretty much). I know my own abilities and limitations, and I pick out my own curriculum. I am the one on one that so many parents are resorting to after there kids have been at school all day. (Sylvan Learning, Kumon)

And like the other post said, it is so much more than academics. It is about each individual kid and what they need to become independant adults. (There is no formula for that.)

[Kathy in MD]

The answer in my case, was yes, and is now no. When my chilldren were younger, I was able to give them a great education and I knew it. They thrived, I thrived, and life was good. Fast forward 16 years...I'm tired. I wasn't giving my best to my kids. High school and junior high brought a harsh reality - the kids in the public schools are taking foreign language from a fluent teacher, they have great science labs, there are honors classes, AP classes, etc.

 

My twins are now freshmen in college. We homeschooled, and used a cyber charter (but they were still at home), we enrolled them in a once-a-week classical program, they took classes at the community college and a local university. They got into great schools, dd got a full scholarship. I can look back and say I did just fine by them.

 

Now, however, I must face some unpleasant truths: I'm tired and I'm not giving my best to my children. We were in a co-op this year, but it has failed to meet academic expectations. My kids are bored and not challenged...and I know this, and I personally don't want to fix it anymore.

 

Gasp - I enrolled my 10th grader in public school last week. He loves it. He's got honors classes and is already feeling like he's working towards something...silly how a grade means more from a teacher than from me, lol. And...shock of shocks...we made the huge jump and enrolled the other three boys yesterday. It's done. I'm no longer a homeschooler. And I want to skip with joy, lol.

 

Can an untrained parent (and by this I assume you mean someone who is intelligent but not a teacher) give their children a great education? Absolutely, without a doubt. Can they also get tired and not do the best job? Absolutely. Homeschooling requires diligence, and not only on the part of the student.

 

I looked at myself and realized I was failing my kids - I was going through the motions, but the love of homeschooling was gone, and I was slacking. I enjoyed my years homeschooling, don't get me wrong, but I always said that I'd homeschool only as long as I could give my kids a better education than the public schools. These past few weeks I've realized that the truth of the matter is that the schools can do more than I can now.

 

And...I'm happy. Blissfully, contentedly happy, and so are the boys. And life is still good. :)

 

Ria

 

There are very few people who can do the same thing for years without losing some of their enthusiasm.

 

Kathy, whose been on a sabatical from housework for several years and still hasn't regained any enthusiasm for the job :D

[GothicGyrl]

I wanted to add that my DH has his bachelors in physics/theatre/math (teaches physics/physical science), is working towards his Master's right now and when I ask him for curriculum advice, he looks at me and says "Now you know better"... :) He can give me advice for science/math, but that is as far as he goes.

 

Everything else he leaves up to me (and in some sense, he does for math/science as well)...

[Mamagistra]

I don't consider school teachers "experts" :)

 

Amen, crunchy. (Edited to say: While I certainly believe that there are talented teachers, I don't consider them to be experts with regard to my children.)

[amy g.]

I have a lifetime certification given to me by the state of Texas to teach children from birth to 6th grade.

 

I know how ignorant I am.

 

Our home school is shaped by who the kids are as much as it is shaped by who I am. I've taught in enough schools to know that rarely happens in classroom settings.

 

I get stressed about all of the things that I don't have time to teach, but the truth is that I teach them the things that are truly important to me, not necessarily the things that my brain tells me I should be teaching.

 

It is important to me that they learn to live lives that are balanced in regard to work and play and rest and art and music and nature and academics. This means that we will not finish Math today. We want to finish screening the compost for the new garden site, and get the rest of our seeds planted in newspaper pots. If it's still light after that, I promised Dd she could take her new horse for a ride.

 

When I was talking to my sister, yesterday she commented on how self confident and emotionally healthy my kids are. I think that is just as important as a "well-trained mind". She said, "Kids really need parental attention, and it's free, but also so costly."

 

I do and will out source some classes that I know I can't teach well, but I won't let them take such a full load that they don't have time to daydream and play and be kids. I don't think that any of mine will get a perfect score on the SAT, but I know they will have the creativity and work ethic to fulfill their own dreams.

 

I can not do a better job than the public school of meeting the public school's goals, but I'd be a fool if I thought that the public schools could do a better job than I can of meeting our family's goals.

[Plaid Dad]

Some parents can do better than some experts with some kids some of the time.

 

I think the question really is: Can I or my designated agent (spouse, co-op teacher, tutor, online instructor, etc.) do better than a government (or private institution's) employee with this child in this subject right now?

 

I will undoubtedly need to outsource some subjects, particularly as my dd gets older. But right now the only subject that my dw and I can't teach as well as an expert is swimming. We belong to the Y. Problem solved.

[Audrey]

Crazy question: Is an untrained parent really able to provide a rigorous education for their children? I do mean in general, but more specifically mothers with more than 2 children. Can a mother reasonably balance raising babies, caring for the home, cooking meals, and the very demanding tasks associated with rigorously educating the older children?

.

 

Short answer: Oh heck yeah, honey!

 

Longer answer: Yes, of course we can, however it is always a matter up to the individual. Tales of uber-advanced children may or may not be accurate, but if they aren't your reality, then it hardly matters, does it? I think we all struggle with doubts. We're pioneers! Do you not think that the settlers of the West had doubts, too? Of course they did. Yet, they succeeded -- some of them. And, they failed, too -- some of them.

 

I do manage to get it all done, but I've had to learn to relax my standards on housekeeping, and learn to delegate those things which I simply do not have the time to do as well as should be done (mainly cleaning). I also work 15 hours a week outside the home, plus about 25 hours a week telecommuting from home. On top of that, I have to travel about once a week, give or take, depending on the season.

 

My son is doing above grade level work in some academic subjects, on grade level in others, and even below grade level in one. Yet, he is successful -- and our homeschool is successful -- by my standards, which I know exceed our public school standards.

 

Still, I have doubts -- because I'm human, too.

[Beth in Central TX]

I think so. That's part of the reason why we homeschool. Other reasons include religious training and character building, but I also want my boys to be academically competitive too. If I didn't think I could provide adequate training in all 3 areas, then I would be looking for other options that would.

[yvonne]

I agree with the post above about not thinking elementary teachers are "experts" in teaching beyond dealing with groups of children. Therefore, I think I can definitely do as good or better a job than the average elementary teacher.

 

However, at the high school level, I am really doubtful that I, as a parent, could cover all subjects as well as individual teachers with a passion for their particular field.

 

I attended a private high school and, looking back, it was wonderful! Amazing! My French teacher was ... French... and passionate about literature. My English teachers.... extremely knowledgeable and passionate about literature. Biology, Chemistry, Physics... all taught by people well-educated and passionate about their fields. Latin... taught by a through-and-through Classics professor.

 

Can I replicate this by myself at home? Not a chance.

 

Yes, I can outsource, but that's limited by cost. There are private high schools nearby that would definitely do a better academic job than I could, but, unfortunately, those will beyond our reach financially.

 

I wonder if a "good" public high school can do a better job? And if a child gets into the AP level classes, I imagine those are taught by "experts" in their fields, so perhaps a public high school could work.

 

Of course, you also have to take into the social consequences of the whole school setting into consideration and decide if you want to make that academic/social trade-off. But from a purely academic perspective, I do think that, at the high school level, "experts" in their fields could do a better job than I could.

[dangermom]

There are things my kids are going to miss if they stay homeschooled through 12th grade. There are things they would miss if they went to PS, too. There isn't a perfect education, but I chose homeschooling because I think that I can do better overall (if I commit myself properly) than a professional who is trying to teach 20+ kids at once, at least in the early years. The professional *may* know more than I do about child education, but she's spread thinner, and I know more about my kids and am able to give them more one-on-one attention.

 

My oldest kid is one of those fairly bright (not genius, but doesn't struggle), compliant kids who often gets ignored in a classroom. I've worked in a school and I've seen it; the teacher spends most of her effort on the kids in crisis, which they need--but the kids who aren't struggling get almost ignored because they aren't crying out for help and there just isn't enough time for everyone. I was one of those kids, and when I did need help I actually didn't know that I could ask for it.

 

About teaching more than one kid and running a home at the same time: it is pretty hard. I only have two, and I'm not sure how I'm going to cope when the younger one starts K seriously. I'm hoping that by then we can afford to have someone come in to help with the cleaning. I can only do so much, and I'm now reaching the edge of what I can manage and stay sane.

 

I want my kids to work to the best of their ability and to get a solid, rigorous education, but that doesn't mean that I want them to work years ahead of their PS friends or be super-geniuses. If I could give the same sort of things (solid basic skills, interest in learning, ability to reason) to every kid, I would, because I'm hoping that the kind of education I'm aiming for would be a good base for any citizen, regardless of chosen profession.

 

It will be a long time before we hit high school, so I'm mostly thinking for younger ages here. It's true that I can't specialize so much that I could give my kids an excellent higher-level education in any subject. Luckily, I have a math genius for a husband and a community college in town. When we get to age 14+, it will be time for my kids to be making some decisions for themselves about their educations, and public school is an option. Happily, the local HS is much better than mine was--mine was, seriously, nearly useless. If my kids can get dedicated, passionate teachers for some subjects, I will consider them very lucky; I certainly never had any before college. So my personal experience has made me a little cynical about that.

[Peek a Boo]

Yes, i believe that "the average" homeschool parent can give their kid a top-notch education. Not the Perpetually Tired parent {{hugs, Ria}}, and not the Lazy parent. But most "average" homeschoolers I know at least strive to make sure their kids have resources to get the dc into a great school later or set for self-education throughout life. High School is NOT the be-all-end-all.

 

Don't forget that when we compare education stats to other countries it's not really a fair comparison either: they only show their top-level students --we include scores from EVERYone ...even special needs students.

 

When a system that is staffed entirely by experts fails A LOT of students a year, i have less faith in the expert part and more faith in the student part. The schools have experts monitoring your student All. Day. Long. ....and kids STILL fail.

 

However, I do not homeschool for academics.

I can't really offer much advice for WTM methodology, but I have gleaned a lot over the years :-)

 

I homeschool for the social aspects --

I *refuse* to send my kids to a school [or church/ Scout group/ youth group/ co-op] where bullying, negative peer pressure, social isolation, and varying levels of violence are a DAILY occurrence and either dismissed or handled badly [by intent or restricted by school policy] by the teachers, staff, and other kids. Sure --we encounter stuff like that at groups [and we are in a lot of social groups], but homeschooling gives us a chance to REALLY examine those times and discuss them w/o needing to battle the emotional scarring of years of daily carp.

 

The religious benefits are an added bonus, but not the crux of why I homeschool :D

[Jean in Newcastle]

most homeschooling parent have a better grasp on educational theory then most ps teachers. Because ps teachers just do the next thing they are told to do by the district.

 

So who is the expert? I happen to be an expert at MY children. I

 

Hear! Hear! I agree that I am an expert at my children (unless I get really stumped and then I ask the think tank on the WTM boards for their advice). Most teachers do not create their own curriculum. They follow the curriculum choices of the school district and much of that is influenced by the educational "flavor of the month". When I taught professionally and when I talk to professional teachers I hear over and over how frustrated they are when they are given inferior curriculum. I don't have to be an expert on 2nd grade mathematics, I just have to know enough to be able to choose Singapore math as the best curriculum out there! (Or Math - U- See or . . .) It is the same for history curriculum and/or approaches. I do believe that some curriculum or approaches are better overall. I am also very happy that we have a choice of some wonderful curriculum available (designed by experts who did a lot of reading, studying and pondering). Then as the experts in our children that we are, we can choose the one that best fits our children. As far as the juggling involved, we all make choices and priorities. Some families make better choices than others. I know of some homeschooling families who have made a series of bad choices and their kids can and do end up a year or so behind their peers in the public schools. I am careful to try and make responsible choices to keep my kids at least up to grade level (that is my litmus test): if I am unable to do even that (provided that there are not disabilities that would keep the child below grade level even in p.s.) then my choice would be to enroll my kids in the p.s. So far that has not been an issue. Even when I had to slow way down due to ill health earlier this year, my kids were way ahead of their p.s. peers - not due to their innate abilities necessarily but due to superior curriculum. My eldest is 5th grade (and doing work in the 5th - 7th grade range). As we move up the educational ladder, I will have to work harder to be able to choose superior curriculum. I will ask the experts around me for help. My dh will help to choose the best math and science curriculum because he's more of an expert at those fields than I am. I'm better in the humanities but I will ask some friends (who are specialists in history or writing) for their advice too. I will ask the experts on the curriculum board too. At this point, I think I can still handle doing the tutoring in these subjects even if I am learning along side my dc in some areas. If I can't, I will farm out these subjects to those who are more expert than me. But I will choose to farm out these subjects in more of a tutorial setting - I like the one-on-one individualized setting of homeschooling too much. And even if my ds is starting to grow a mustache and is developing his pecs, I will still be the #1 expert on his character (along with my dh)!

[G5052]

I've been an adjunct professor teaching private, public, and homeschooled kids for nine years. I've homeschooled my own kiddies seven years. And finally, I've been teaching other people's homeschooled kids for four years now.

 

I think that it can be done if:

 

 

• The parent has a decent education or is willing to study along/ahead
  
• The parent can honestly access their weaknesses and delegate to resources that make up the shortfalls (assuming that they can afford and have such resources available)
  
• The parent can effectively pace themselves for the long haul (may depend on the child too, certain children are frankly easier to homeschool the whole way)
  
• The relationship of parent and child is such that homeschooling gets truly gets done to the level that the child is capable of
  

 

Sadly this type of parent is not that common, but it does encourage me that it can be done. In our case, I've chosen to go with very scripted curriculum for grade school and plan to delegate almost completely to Classical Conversations after that. It's still year-by-year though, even though I thought I'd never say that.

 

Flexibility is important!

[WTMindy]

I don't consider school teachers "experts" :)

 

Some are and some aren't. But, a person with a degree in math is probably going to be able to help a student with their trigonometry better than a teacher who hasn't had algebra since high school. I'm not saying it can't be done, homeschool students teach themselves all the time, but for a student who struggles in math it does help to have someone who knows what they are doing.

[TRILLIUM]

I've been having a hard time lately. By standardized test scores we do better than PS. I feel good about my fifth grader, okay about my 8th grader and kind of bad about my 10th grader.

 

Now in some respects my tenth grader is your dream 10th grade homeschooler. She is motivated, studying for AP tests, hard working, self taught and all. But it is so lonely. It might be different if there were other acedemically oreinted high school students that she knew, but there aren't. I'm hopeful that next year when she is finally old enough for cc classes that things pick up. I'm really thinking of sending my next to the local public school next year for high school. They have a good foreign language program and lots of AP classes.

[gardenschooler]

However, at the high school level, I am really doubtful that I, as a parent, could cover all subjects as well as individual teachers with a passion for their particular field.

 

I attended a private high school and, looking back, it was wonderful! Amazing! My French teacher was ... French... and passionate about literature. My English teachers.... extremely knowledgeable and passionate about literature. Biology, Chemistry, Physics... all taught by people well-educated and passionate about their fields. Latin... taught by a through-and-through Classics professor.

 

Can I replicate this by myself at home? Not a chance.

 

I wonder if a "good" public high school can do a better job? And if a child gets into the AP level classes, I imagine those are taught by "experts" in their fields, so perhaps a public high school could work.

 

But from a purely academic perspective, I do think that, at the high school level, "experts" in their fields could do a better job than I could.

 

Just wanted to jump in to give my perspective on the high school level. While the high school you attended sounds fantastic with its very specialized teachers, that is not always the case. I'd even venture to say that it is often not the case nowadays (and of course, depending on where you live).

 

In our school district, we have an extreme teacher shortage, to the point that new teachers are allowed to start teaching even before they're certified. I don't remember the exact statistics, but at one point there was a huge uproar because the percentage of non-certified teachers was so high.

 

One other thing I've noticed about honors and AP classes that my dd and my friend's kids are taking at our local high school - it's not so much the teaching making it an honors/AP class, as it is the course requirements and level of independent study required. The amount of class time they have vs. the amount of independent work and study required to make an A or B in the class is about 1 to 4.

 

Our district even sites 'independent study' as one element that changes a class from standard to honors. I was sure to point this out when I went to enroll my dd in 'Honors' for 10th grade (it worked :)). One thing I know my dd came away from our homeschool armed with is GREAT study skills.

 

I fully agree with you that experts in their fields can do a very thorough job teaching that subject. Unfortunately, the experts aren't always teaching at the high school. In most schools, it's the luck of the draw. Some schools and districts have a higher ratio of very good teachers, some less. My dd ended up with a few great ones, and a few that seem to be just biding their time until retirement.

 

For my middle dd who will continue homeschooling through high school, I fully intend to seek out those experts as we need to - whether it's in the form of a tutor, a mentor, an on-line class, a cc class, an audited college class, a homeschool class, or even Teaching Co. dvds! If none of those are available, we'll just have to learn it together and hone our independent study skills in the process.

 

To me, the beauty of homeschooling is being able to have so much choice. We can go seek out the best ourselves.

[gardenschooler]

Certain children are frankly easier to homeschool the whole way

 

The relationship of parent and child is such that homeschooling gets truly gets done to the level that the child is capable of

 

 

Ain't that the truth. Part of the reason I'm so optimistic about high school for my middle one is because she is that kid, and we have that relationship.

 

And that's also why my oldest is in ps! :D

[mcconnellboys]

I think that parents of large families *can* do an excellent job of educating their children. I know families who do this. That doesn't mean that *all* large families (or even small ones) will succeed at this. Children have to also want success for themselves. If they are not able to internalize this while they're young, it's not the end of the world. Lots of people go to college when they're older and more mature.

 

For homeschooling, I think it helps tremendously if the parents are well organized themselves, or good organizers. Now, by that I don't necessarily mean that their house will always be spotless, LOL, as it may be dirty for a decade! What I mean is that if either or both of them possess good organizational capabilities, so that they can pretty effortlessly order their days, and prioritize the important tasks that need to get done, then I think they can more easily accomplish the work that their children need to do in order to thrive, as well as instill those same sort of abilities (maybe) in their children to help them order their own days. What is important to one person may not be at all important to another. If education is the most important thing to a family, then that will come first, above housework, cooking dinner, etc.

 

I know parents who simply can not (and it does not matter what the size of their family) give up their own personal time or get their days organized. This would be the same even if all their children were out of the house all day long. For that person, hsing may certainly not be a good option. I have seen families where the children simply were not being schooled appropriately at all, at any level. They just weren't being schooled - period.....

 

Do I think that an above-average-IQ parent, who has worked for years in high level jobs as a professional can't come home and homeschool their children? Certainly not. I see a ton of them doing an excellent job, just as they did when they were in the work world. They apply themselves to that work just as they did with any job they've ever had....

 

Do I think an average-IQ parent, who has never held a job can adequately school their children? I absolutely do! I've seen them do it. Where there's a will, there's a way. One can pretty much DO *anything* that one sets one's mind to....

 

Lots of parents outsource hs for the high school years not because they don't feel they can do it, but because at the rhetoric stage children really *need* to discuss ideas with a larger number of people in order to draw on a larger wealth of perspectives. They already should pretty much know what we think by then. It's time for them to begin to see how perspectives may differ and learn how to deal with that.

 

I think one hears a lot of stories about children who work ahead of their chronological age because 1) homeschooling facilitates that and allows a lot of "average" kids to achieve more of their true potential than they would lost in the mix of regular school, where their achievements or abilities might never be recognized and they might not ever be challenged, and 2) lots of folks who are homeschooling are doing so because they saw above average or "gifted" potential in their children early on that for whatever reason they felt would not get addressed within regular school, so they brought them home to address those issues themselves.

 

I think that the larger the family, the more involved every member of it needs to be in helping to keep the house, prepare the meals (and clean up), etc. so that Mom doesn't have to be super-human. But I also believe that relaxing the standards of what constitutes an acceptable state for a house is important when there are little guys around. They grow up very, very quickly and the immaculate house will keep until a day when they're off on their own....

 

Do I think that someone who has earned a degree in some area of education has some sort of expert advantage over a parent in teaching their child? Well, maybe, if they're quick and intelligent and heavily invested in their area of teaching and absolutely in love with imparting knowledge to others. Some folks are just natural teachers and will teach wherever they are in life, no matter what their official job title happens to be. Other folks *think* they want to become teachers or get stuck in what becomes a dead-end job for them that they don't have the wherewithal to leave, and end up taking out their frustrations on their poor students, instilling a hatred of education, rather than a love of it.

 

All in all, I think that most parents have the will to see to it that their children receive the best education possible, whether they're providing it firsthand or farming it out. I think we can certainly count on them more often than not to put their children's interests first. I think HSLDA's recent statistics indicate that homeschooled adults are faring quite well within our economy and did well in college, so that would bare me out....

 

And even if a parent doesn't have the will to see that their children are well educated, that doesn't make them bad people. Every person on earth is not gifted with the same talents. Not everyone is a nurturing mother, either. People are just different. Different doesn't necessarily equate with bad. I would hope that anyone who feels that they cannot educate their children would feel willing and able to give them up and allow them to receive education elsewhere. And just love them in other ways!

 

Regena

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yes, I so agree that it is the luck of the draw in the high schools. In my p.s. high school algebra class, our teacher spent way more time drawing football diagrams on the board than quadratic equations (he was also the coach). My history teacher was very good on history but even better at ridiculing Christians and singing bawdy songs. My English teacher was half soused most of the time though he was very knowledgeable about literature. My science teacher was the best, so was my home ec, P.E. etc. Now at the private college prep boarding school I went to after that, all the teachers were genuine experts as well as professionals.

[Laura K (NC)]

A parent is the best guidance counsellor. A parent knows best what her/his child needs and when he needs it. If a parent can't teach a subject, he can find someone or something that can do it best.

 

I've heard of a lot of local families who throw in the towel in 9th and 10th grades. Their kids are thriving in public schools. Are the kids thriving because the parents did a poor job? That's illogical. The kids thrive because the parents have already done an excellent job. One parent and a few kids will always win out over one detached "expert" teacher in a room of 30. If you don't think that teacher gets burned out sometimes and gives less than their best, you're crazy. You have one set of emotional problems with a student, but that teacher has 30 sets.

 

My own "expert" history teacher in high school was a football coach. Heh. Can I do better? If I personally can't do better, I can hire someone who can do MUCH better. I don't have to watch while my kids endure a clunker of an "expert" every other year while we wait in hope for a real expert the following year, or maybe the year after that...

 

Experts... who is a better expert at raising your children than you are?

[PinkInTheBlue]

I've been watching my best friend from high school go back to college and get her master's in elementary education. She doesn't have far to go before she goes into the classroom. I've been very interested in her classes and assignments. I've watched and listened. There is no doubt in MY opinion that she will graduate with no more knowledge than I received by doing a fair amount of studying and reading before beginning homeschooling. The real education on how to teach she'll receive in the classroom by the same trial and error I did. She's taken many wonderful classes on how to make games and unit studies and theory and philosophies of education. I have to be honest with you; I'm amazed at what they are calling a master's in elem. ed.

 

A degree in high school education might be different (I'm sure it is) but from my experience with 3 different high schools before graduation says a good or bad teacher is nothing but luck-of-the-draw. I had horrible teachers that prove the ridiculous uselessness of tenure and I had wonderful teachers that educated, challenged and encouraged me.

 

My plan is that we'll homeschool all the way through. I'll continue to reach out when I want assistance (DIVE cd-roms:) ) , teach what I know and learn ahead as needed. We'll take it a step at a time.

[Robin in Tx]

If you go to the hs board, you will find plenty of families who have been successful. And you'll find a few who have chosen other paths with one or more of their children. Yes, it can be done, but that doesn't mean that everyone can or should do it.

 

Where have you seen SWB go on about hs kids being years ahead of their ps counterparts? I'm curious, because you say the stories are ala SWB, but I don't recall exaggerated claims in TWTM. As a matter of fact, the last time I heard SWB talk at a conference, she strongly warned against this sort of arrogance.

 

Not everyone who homeschools does so for academic reasons. For those of us who do (I'm part way in this camp), do so because they want their child's education to look different... not just to get years ahead, but to be as good as possible. We want different skills emphasized and different approaches to content. You can't compare with the ps average, and if you do you will be disappointed. The one on one tutoring might give your child the best advantage and make them look above the ps *average*, but there will always be plenty of kids at your local ps who are stellar students that your kid would have a tough time measuring up against.

 

I know that homeschool groups like HSLDA put out reports about how much better hs students do on SATs, etc., but I think you have to be careful with that. The average hs student is at an advantage over the adverage ps student, and if that hs student went to ps, it may be that they would perform just as well because the parent is the type who is diligent about staying on top of the child's courses, homework, special tutoring needs, etc. I think the more involved a parent is in a child's education (the more the parent takes ownership of seeing to their child's good educatin), the better the child's chances. Our kids happen to have parents who are serious about that involvement/ownership. If they appear to be ahead of the average ps kid, it is because of that, imo. And they will not always be ahead of the most advanced or advantaged ps student. But they might be more specialized, which will help them in the long run.

 

 

Good luck,

Robin

[CalicoKat]

BUT homeschooling is so much more than just teaching academics. I AM the expert on my children, their personalities, their likes, their dislikes, their preferred ways to learn. I AM the expert who is passionate about my kids and finding the best learning environment, curriculum, methods, and motivation for them.

 

Perhaps they're experts, but I am the specialist.

 

I don't disagree that perhaps my kids would be getting more education in a public school environment. I don't disagree that perhaps there is a better teacher for them to learn from. Yes, our homeschool might not be the best academic environment with 5 kids.

 

BUT homeschool is not just about academics. We've had a ton of unsolicited feedback from the numerous visitors in our house these past 2 months while I've been sick and recovering. I've been hearing reports of how my kids have blown away people with their politeness, ability to have a conversation, taking loving care of their younger sibs, helping out with the chores in the house, etc. This is encouraging to dh and I. We want more for our kids than to just be the smartest kids, we want them to also be the nicest kids--kids who are enjoyable.

[RoughCollie]

I have had 22 years of education and I've seen only a few teachers I would call experts. The other day, DH said that he thinks the *experts* are teaching at the private college-prep schools and that they are experts first in their respective fields. I think he has a valid point.

 

I also think it is difficult to teach in a public school setting. The teachers don't have much leeway in determining what they will teach and how they will teach it, and the schools have to supply all comers with an education.

 

Meanwhile, I am the expert on my children. I spend a lot of time researching how to teach each one of them effectively, and I handpick the curricula I use or made up my own. My class sizes were small, either one student (when tutoring was needed) or four students. My expectations are high, certainly higher than that of the PS or of the parochial school three of my children attend this year, and are in line with what my children can achieve if they apply themselves.

 

Two of my children are being tested at the PS for learning disorders. This is to put a label on what I've known is wrong for years, so that DH and I can determine how best to approach high school and preparation for college and careers for these children.

 

The school psychologist keeps asking me how my kids test so highly in various areas in which they would be expected to do very poorly, given their learning difficulties. She's never seen anything like it, she says.

 

That's because she has never tested a homeschooled child whose parents were determined to give their children the best education possible in a manner in which the child was the most responsive to learning.

 

I think that is what homeschooling is all about -- well, not all -- but a large part of it.

 

I think of homeschooling as a full-time job which requires overtime. I figure that however I manage my household: cooking, cleaning, and etc. -- I can't do worse than a more typical mother who works full-time.

 

I've had it easier in one respect, in that my 4 children were always educated on the same grade level in most subjects. I had no babies to take care of while teaching the others.

 

Rigorous means "characterized by rigor; rigidly severe or harsh, as people, rules, or discipline" according to dictionary.com.

 

I don't think of the education I give my children as being rigorous. I think it's mostly interesting, sometimes tedious or boring, challenging ... but not rigorous. To me, rigor takes all the fun and excitement out of learning.

 

YMMV.

 

RC

 

Now at the private college prep boarding school I went to after that, all the teachers were genuine experts as well as professionals.

[WTMindy]

Can an untrained parent (and by this I assume you mean someone who is intelligent but not a teacher) give their children a great education? Absolutely, without a doubt. Can they also get tired and not do the best job? Absolutely. Homeschooling requires diligence, and not only on the part of the student.

Ria

 

Ria, YOU ROCK! I think you are spot on!

[Jenny in Atl]

Can a public school actually *make* a student become educated to any particular level? Or does a student's desire to become educated determine the outcome no matter the situation?

 

This statement really rang true with me. As a kid I went to both good and not so good public schools, and in both settings, there were kids who did well/failed no matter the teachers, no matter the pressures of drugs, cliques, etc.

 

I think my kids are doing better with me at home vs. school (either pubic or private) but I often wonder how much of it has to do with me and our sitting, and how much is them? There are often times I wish for an awesome high school to open near by, where learning is valued, and expectations for all students are high (encouraging each student to find their strengths). However, this is not the case, at least on the public level here.

[Mx5]

I have a lifetime certification given to me by the state of Texas to teach children from birth to 6th grade.

 

I know how ignorant I am.

 

Our home school is shaped by who the kids are as much as it is shaped by who I am. I've taught in enough schools to know that rarely happens in classroom settings.

 

I get stressed about all of the things that I don't have time to teach, but the truth is that I teach them the things that are truly important to me, not necessarily the things that my brain tells me I should be teaching.

 

It is important to me that they learn to live lives that are balanced in regard to work and play and rest and art and music and nature and academics. This means that we will not finish Math today. We want to finish screening the compost for the new garden site, and get the rest of our seeds planted in newspaper pots. If it's still light after that, I promised Dd she could take her new horse for a ride.

 

When I was talking to my sister, yesterday she commented on how self confident and emotionally healthy my kids are. I think that is just as important as a "well-trained mind". She said, "Kids really need parental attention, and it's free, but also so costly."

 

I do and will out source some classes that I know I can't teach well, but I won't let them take such a full load that they don't have time to daydream and play and be kids. I don't think that any of mine will get a perfect score on the SAT, but I know they will have the creativity and work ethic to fulfill their own dreams.

 

I can not do a better job than the public school of meeting the public school's goals, but I'd be a fool if I thought that the public schools could do a better job than I can of meeting our family's goals.

 

It's not just about education, it's about life. It's about our kids some day not being kids anymore, and being able to think and reason and live their lives fully.

[Antonia]

He taught for 17 years, and *could not read*! He admits he faked his way through college and his job. Makes you wonder just how "expert" all those so-called experts are.