Colleen Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 In my ongoing effort to win Queen of Questioning Authority title, I'm considering challenging a traffic ticket I received the other day. Here's the deal: As I was approaching an intersection, the light turned yellow. (Meaning, of course, "slow down/stop" here in the States. I get mixed up sometimes when I'm driving across the border where the yellow light conveys a different meaning.) Any-hoo, because it was very early morning with virtually no traffic present, and because ~ yes, I admit it ~ I was in a hurry (soccer mom thang), I went ahead and turned left rather than stopping. I am very confident that the light was still yellow when I entered the intersection, and turned red while I was in the process of turning. Well, you know the rest of the story. Right after I completed the turn, I was pulled over. My town is one of those places where traffic citations are a given when you get pulled over; forget warnings. So yeah, I got the ticket and went on my merry way, but what irks me is that the officer said I turned on a red light. As I said, I believe I initiated the turn while the light was yellow. He claimed I wasn't even at the intersection yet when the light turned red, which is just plain wrong. So now, on principle, I feel compelled to not only "explain the circumstances" and get the fine knocked down a bit, but to actually challenge it altogether. It's essentially his word against mine, and I can assume the badge will win. But truth be told, he can't prove his case with a preponderance of evidence. Has anyone ever challenged this one? Or maybe I'm the only one who isn't an upstanding citizen.:tongue_smilie: Btw, did I tell you the Fair refunded me for having my car towed in August? I got lucky on that one, I admit.;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsdash Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I call those lights Pink and I always turn or proceed if it is safe to do so. If depends upon the traffic and common sense, of course, but there is no law that I'm aware of that says "stop at the yellow light because it's going to turn red." I thought it moreso meant "proceed with caution". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen Posted October 16, 2008 Author Share Posted October 16, 2008 Think I tried to squeeze too many words in there and lost a couple in the process!:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMW Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I fought this very same traffic violation and I had witnesses with me in my car. The judge listened, sympathetically, then said that he couldn't take my side against an officer's. Then, since I seemed like such a decent lady, I could pay the fine and he would clear my driving record as if it had never happened at all... so the authorities took my money and that was that. In the state I was in the law said that you could not enter an intersection when a light was red. I did not disobey that law. Still makes me mad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motherofjoy Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 In my experience, without evidence to the contrary, the judge always believes the officer. Maybe your local traffic court is different. In many areas, a traffic citation received on a clean record gives you some options, like a class instead of a fine. It certainly won't hurt to go to court and try to argue your case. You seem like a person who can give a reasoned point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 My father once challenged a ticket. At the hearing, the officer didn't show up and the ticket was automatically voided. I've heard that often the officers are too busy to deal with things like that - but I'm in a large city so maybe it's different. And my dad was sure he was right & the officer was wrong so maybe that was part of it too. I'd think it's worth the effort. BTW, I live in one of those places where you can't enter an intersection on a yellow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommybee Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 http://www.amazon.com/Beat-Cops-Fighting-Traffic-Winning/dp/0963464116/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224178444&sr=1-1 My library has this book and it had some interesting idea's for how to beat stuff like this, especially when you are sure your right. There was something in it about rescheduling your court date because you are then more likely to not have the cop show up. I just recently got a bogus speeding ticket and he gave me no warning. Now I've paid a huge fine and am having to do online traffic school to keep it off my record. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 If the police don't come to court, and sometimes they don't, you win. Even if they come, you'll probably get a reduced fine or cleared driving record because you took the trouble to appear. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paula in MS Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I believe you have to clear the intersection before it turns red or it is illegal. If it turns red while you are in the intersection, you are running the red light. If you go to court and the officer does not show up to give testimony, you will probably win. (This happens pretty often. They cannot be at court all the time.) Just check on the definite law before you go to court. Paula Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbie Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 This is my guessing at Cali driving rules. Isn't it if your tires are over the line on a yellow you are fine. Just saying, thats how they drive here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vida Winter Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I believe I would also fight the ticket. Funny aside: One of my county's claims to fame is that we do not have a single stop light. And I just found out that the road I (and 4 other families) live on is considered a driveway by the county. You gotta love small towns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty ethel rackham Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I always understood it that you are not supposed to enter an intersection at on yellow. The yellow light is for clearing the intersection. If you entered on green and waited to turn, you could turn on yellow/becoming red because you had entered the intersection before the yellow. My brother had this happen to him. As he was turning left on a yellow, a car hit him running the yellow light. Both parties were issued tickets. The officer said that db did not enter the intersection on a green so he was equally at fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSinIL Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Here if you do not clear the intersection before it turns red - you ran a red light. A quiet time of day with little traffic is NOT the time to try and make it through a yellow light - the police officer has no one else to be watching but YOU!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 In OR, a yellow light means that you must stop unless unable to do so safely. Not sure if it's the same in WA, but if it is, as you seem to have indicated here: the light turned yellow. (Meaning, of course, "slow down/stop" here in the States. then I think you need to pay the fine. It doesn't really matter whether the officer was correct about exactly when the light turned. He's human, and prone to error, too. But you've admitted that it turned red while you were in the intersection, which means that you had time to stop safely, which means that you (likely) broke the law. If you know that you broke the law, then challenging the ticket becomes about either being right about exactly when the light turned, or getting out of paying the fine for breaking the law. That's my honest and direct opinion. I lurk often and remember reading about the fair parking--I'm glad you got a refund. :) Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Here if you do not clear the intersection before it turns red - you ran a red light. That is the law in our state as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Hood Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I learned at traffic school many years back, that it can seem like you're in the clear from the inside of your car, but from the outside you may indeed, be behind the line. That instruction comes from an officer, if that is any clue to how they judge things, at least in California. I am always aware of my vehicles position every time I enter an intersection on a yellow light and wonder what the officer would have seen. It certainly would not hurt to fight it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Here if you do not clear the intersection before it turns red - you ran a red light. I've never heard this before. When I did Driver's Ed (years ago in MI) and on drivers' test in each state I've moved to (NJ VT) , you could not enter an intersection on a red light - nothing about clearing it at all. What states does this apply to? And how are travelers supposed to know this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CookieMonster Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I always understood it that you are not supposed to enter an intersection at on yellow. The yellow light is for clearing the intersection. If you entered on green and waited to turn, you could turn on yellow/becoming red because you had entered the intersection before the yellow. Wow, now see, I didn't know that. I wonder if that's the universal legal interpretation of a yellow light or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom to Aly Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I had this happen a few years ago, and I went to court. The policeman admitted I went into the intersection just as the light turned yellow (I know I would have had to slam on my brakes to stop at that point, my dd was very young, I didn't consider that safe), and the judge still said I was wrong, you cannot enter an intersection on a yellow light!!! Because I had a perfect record, he dismissed it, but basically told me he would always consider the driver a "liar" (his words) if they contradicted the policeman! (he was also letting me off because I had the same story as the policeman) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan in SC Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I would try to contact the officer before the court date. In our state, he/she has the ability to drop the entire matter. If you were very polite dealing with the officer, then it doesn't hurt to try! PS- My husband, a criminal attorney, has mentioned this to several friends of ours! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 This is my guessing at Cali driving rules. Isn't it if your tires are over the line on a yellow you are fine. Just saying, thats how they drive here. Yup, rear tires in the intersection when it turns red - you are fine in CA. i operate under that assumption HERE too.... And DH has fought a ticket and won - the cop didn't shop in Los Angeles at the 3:30pm court date on the wednesday before Thanksgiving. Imagine that! LOL!! He did have pictures to prove he was right too (lane issue in a semi), and was actually irked he didn't get to show them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I think you should try to fight it, if for no other reason than to keep your record clear. And hope you get a lenient judge. But honestly? if i was the judge and heard your reasoning? I'd still find you guilty and make you pay the fine, esp since you know that yellow means slow down/stop. I don't think my kids would describe me as "lenient" when it comes to driving rules tho ;) and yes, cadam, i'm sure the engineers are working for one outcome and the DoT is working for a different one. Since it is the DoT that is in charge of how those lights are to be used to maximize safety, what the engineers were going for doesn't really matter.......:tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolash Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 just admit you did the wrong thing, pay the fine and leave it at that. Really, do you have to go to to "challenge authority"? The fact is, if you hadn't tried to make through the light, you would have never gotten the ticket. Simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governess Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 In my county in CA, I believe, if you take the ticket to traffic court and you lose, you not only have to pay the fine but you also lose the ability to go through traffic school to get the ticket taken off your record. So there is a risk to fighting it, if you have the ability to go to traffic school for this ticket and if you have a law like this in place where you live. IMO, the only way you could win this one is if the officer doesn't show up. I've read that some people call the station to find out what day the police officer is off duty and schedule their court date accordingly. The officer isn't likely to give up his day off just to come into court. I'm not sure how easily people give this information out though. :glare: Good luck! It is quite annoying to have to pay a fine for something when there's no proof that you are guilty of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Does the town run cameras in the cop cars? If you know you were legal, find out how to get the tape entered as evidence. If the angle was all wrong to show what you were doing then argue that the cop didn't have a good view of the incident. The only other thing to do if there isn't evidence either way, is just show up. Some times you get lucky and the officer won't. If that happens then the case will automatically be dismissed for lack of prosecution witness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiCO Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I was so surprised when I moved to Colorado from Connecticut years ago- people actually stopped at yellow lights! And there was no delay in the green, so no one anticipated the green lights, either! What's up with that? And dh couldn't believe I would drive around yelling at people for driving wrong. (I've long become a local, so I'm a much calmer driver now.) Anyway, my point is that driving expectations vary greatly from place to place. I think I would get a ticket here for running a yellow light, unless it turned yellow as I was about to enter the intersection, making it dangerous to stop. If I were you I would fight the ticket just to not have it on my record. And stop driving like a crazy soccer mom. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I had this happen when I was 19. I went to court and was fined 6 dozen homemade cookies for the local camp. Along with instructions they should not be degrogatory toward the police. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowWhite Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 When I attended driver's education many years ago, the protocol for turning left was to enter the intersection (on green or yellow), then turn as soon as traffic cleared, which is sometimes AFTER the red light. There are times traffic is so heavy the intersection is never clear enough for a left hand turn until the light is red. I would challenge it as you have little or nothing to lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 (edited) why not.... just admit you did the wrong thing, pay the fine and leave it at that. Really, do you have to go to to "challenge authority"? The fact is, if you hadn't tried to make through the light, you would have never gotten the ticket. Simple as that. __________________ Because it's not wrong to enter an intersection on a yellow light? :confused: Yellow light: Warns that the light is about to turn red. If you are too close to the intersection to stop safely, proceed with caution, through the intersection From the Vermont Driver Manual, p. 45 http://www.aot.state.vt.us/dmv/documents/Manuals/DriverLicense/2007DriverManual.pdf "too close to stop safely" is a judgment call. It doesn't say anything about exiting the intersection before it turns red, just to "proceed with caution." Edited October 17, 2008 by In The Great White North Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB in NJ Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Yellow lights last forever in Jersey, and they mean "hurry up!" not "slow down." :lol: Yeah, I would fight it. Nothing to lose, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andie Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Because it's not wrong to enter an intersection on a yellow light? :confused: From the Vermont Driver Manual, p. 45 http://www.aot.state.vt.us/dmv/documents/Manuals/DriverLicense/2007DriverManual.pdf "too close to stop safely" is a judgment call. It doesn't say anything about exiting the intersection before it turns red, just to "proceed with caution." But she wasn't just driving through the intersection (in which case she could argue that she could reasonably have proceeded through before the light went red) she was making a left hand turn, which requires more time and a potential complete stop once in the intersection. It's reasonable to assume that action mightn't be completed in the time it takes to go from yellow to red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 It's reasonable to assume that action mightn't be completed in the time it takes to go from yellow to red. ___________ The Driver's Manual doesn't say there is a requirement to complete the action before it turns red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andie Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 The Driver's Manual doesn't say there is a requirement to complete the action before it turns red. Well, I haven't read the Washington driver's manual, granted, but I've not lived anywhere that blocking an intersection is acceptable. I didn't post to be argumentative, just pointing out that she skirted in and then made a left hand turn, it wasn't as simple as timing going *through* the light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crissy Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 I didn't post to be argumentative... Oh, riiiiiight. You rabble-rouser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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