Thanks for all the thoughtful replies, Ladies. I certainly have a lot to mull over here. TaratheLiberator, I would love to hear more about what you did, as your situation rings a bell with me. We absolutely have a consistent schedule. We have always had to have a consistent routine with him. He has input in the schedule (since I know that will be the next suggestion) and agrees to it. Right now he does "sit down school" for 3.5 hours Mon and Tue, 2.5 hours Wed, and 1 hour Thr. The rest of Thursday is for field trips. That is all the schooling in one week he can handle. I would love to scaffold his ideas as suggested, but don't have much experience in that area. I'll look into the mentioned books. I wish I could claim giftedness in the aforementioned 'grandiose' ideas, but I would be overselling the situation. He simply wakes up some mornings with a whole list of planned activities. I would love to just let school go for the day, and let him pursue his sudden desire to play elaborate games with his cars, but we've tried that and it leads to disaster. The next day, when it's time to get back to school he balks and ends up blowing up about school. For the next three weeks he will try every day to get out of school work and throw some kind of fit about not being able to skip it. I'm sorry I don't have time to answer all the comments on my situation.

Which part of the day goes well varies from day to day quite wildly. One day he sits down and does Latin with no problem, the next day he throws a fit about it. The rest of the week he does an average job of it. Same story for every subject. I have, since, Kindergarten, analyzed when the switch flips and adjusted accordingly. One thing that sets him off is too much volume of work overall. I cut back until he is not overwhelmed. But, all the while I'm wondering when we will ever get to these important subjects we are skipping. Any kind of writing has always set him off. I have always modified this for him, while expecting him to continue to develop. I watched a friend, ahead of me in homeschooling, let her son do everything oral because he hated to write. She was waiting for the "he'll want to write eventually" moment that everyone said would come. He's in High School next year and still cries about having to write something down on paper, because it is a struggle for him to do so. I decided not to do that. I made my son write, but not too much, and I expected improvement. But, he still hates to write and is only neat if I stand over him. Sometimes he throws a fit because he simply does not want to sit down and focus. Sometimes he is upset because he has made grandiose plans for the day and hates how school is "interrupting" them. But, then during breaks (think Christmas), he gets out of control because he doesn't have enough expected assignments. Having some calms him down (overall). It's a tricky balance. Working independently means simply completing an assignment without me standing over him. He's not ready to go to the next level and take material and educate himself. This year I wanted more time in the day to work with his younger sister. So I am trying to send him off to complete the written part of assignments on his own. But he still doesn't work independently. He doesn't read the directions for the written assignments, often does the wrong assignment because he didn't bother checking the assignment sheet, and it is all done sloppily. He seems to want me to leave him alone and let him do it, but then he doesn't really do it. And he's convinced correcting (or finishing!) incorrect (or incomplete) work is of the devil.

Or, at least, that's how it feels. Maybe I just need to hear that I'm normal. But, maybe I need to do something drastically different. I'm tired of the "I don't like school" comments. I'm frustrated that I spent TIME and energy teaching him grammar, etc. that he simply doesn't care to remember. He is good about dutifully doing what I say is imperative, but he doesn't like it, it isn't sticking, and I can tell he feels frustrated. (Honestly, he's good about dutifully doing it only after he throws fits - and sometimes cries.) He still cannot work independently, at least not with the traditional and classical materials I've been using. He skips things, doesn't follow directions, and is not neat. I have worked really hard to help him. I tweak his work load every year to what he can handle without major blowups (hidden frustration manifesting itself). He is in fourth grade this year, and we are still not getting to history. STILL! Because he cannot handle the extra work and still get imperative things like math done too. We only do four days of each subject a week, because he cannot handle five. Right now, those four-day-a-week subjects are Bible, Math, Latin, English, and Reading. Science works out to about 2 days per week with all the breaks in the wonky schedule it came with. Bible is an easy subject and only 15 minutes. Latin is Latina Christiana I, with his 2nd grade sister, and it seems easy for him. English and math he struggles with, even though he is smart and capable. He is able to learn a lot, but usually needs twice as much repetition as an average student would need in order to retain concepts. This child is challenging all my cherished notions about how best to educate a child. When read the Well Trained Mind I fell in love. I've tried to implement it with my son, making modifications for his... quirks... and it doesn't seem to be working well. I here readily admit that I'm upset that it just isn't working. It is really important to me that my children have skills like writing, math, and reading. Those are the very things he would rather not ever do. And it's not like he isn't learning anything, most people comment on how "smart" he is, but it is a big struggle for both of us for him to learn these things. I taught him to read, against his will, because asking him to sit down for 20 minutes four days a week was not too much to ask, in my mind. He still fought me all the way. Now? He using his un-asked-for tool all the time, with relish. I know that school/learning is not all fun, because it is work, and work is not always fun - especially when it is hard. But, the further we go with homeschooling, the more it feels like he truly dislikes school entirely. I do not want him to look back on homeschooling with disgust. I've tried to find what he likes and let him follow it, as much as is possible, on the side. But, that seems to lead nowhere. He jumps all over the place and doesn't hit anything in-depth, or has really expensive interests. He really would like to just play electronic games, watch tv, and play with his sisters or friends all day. I feel much too responsible for his future employment possibilities to just let him do that, as some have suggested to me. He has all these ideas about building things or inventions, but doesn't have the skill-set to follow through with these things. Contrast all of that with his younger sister. She doesn't always love school stuff, but it's rarely a struggle. Classical Ed is going swimmingly with her and she is retaining her knowledge. The biggest problem she has is her older brother eating up all of mom's available time and leaving her with less education that she is capable of achieving. This eating up of my time is a big issue. I just don't know what to do. I will continue pressing on and dealing with it, if it is what's best, but it just doesn't seem like it should be this hard. Part of me wants to let him dive headlong into his varied and fleeting interests with no formal education, but I fear for those basic skills I feel he needs. I cannot figure out how that would actually work. I'm not really sure what I'm actually asking here. Hopefully someone can read through the lines for me. Help? Ideas? Thoughts?

I tried Time4Learning and was thoroughly unimpressed. Just my experience with my kids, of course. But, I think it is clunky to use, difficult to determine grade level ahead of time, wacky in it's approach to 'grading', and disappointing in what it offers. I used it with my first grader, and put her in second grade since she is an avid reader and good at math. She was bored. I used it with my third grader, a very average fella, and the program couldn't handle his approach to schoolwork. He likes getting wrong answers with computer games/programs first to see what happens (the graphics can be funny). The program could not handle that. It gave me garbage data for him. It is not like so many learning games that are available out there for tablets, etc. You do not progress through levels as you improve. There are a set number of lessons for each subject and you are expected to do every lesson in every subject before you are done with a grade. But, showing that you are 'done' is not intuitive. My kids often missed the assessments buried under the layers, and then even when they did do them, there were not obvious signs for me that they had been completed. After three months I was done fiddling with it and paying for it. I could have spent all that money on a boatload of iPod games or Internet-based games that would have taught my kids a lot more. (Don't have a tablet...)

He sounds like a typical boy. There are many types of boys, and he fits one of the typical profiles. At 9 yo he just doesn't have the skills to always cope with failure as adults do. If you want to add another book to your reading list, try The Way of Boys by Anthony Rao. I found it incredibly insightful and helpful.

Sorry, should have been more clear I guess. I am trying to find out what the birthing center's policy is regarding these "midwifery only" options and whether that means I get a birth-center midwife to work with my OB, if my OB can actually authorize these things, or if I have to dump my OB and only use a midwife. I wasn't asking for my OB's opinion on midwives.

Oh, dear. This is getting complicated. I went to the library and came home with some books. Read The Official Lamaze Guide first. Was glad for the evidence-based approach, with just a toe-dip in the collective consciousness vibe. A lot of what I read resonated with me. I was really disappointed though that no specific information was given about breathing/laboring techniques. I have to find a class for that. Skimmed The Everything Birthing Book. Tried Birthing a Better Way but was gagging too much 1/2 way through it. There were no Bradley books at the library. The first thing I did was go to my birthing center website and fill out my birth plan. All the special interventions or non-interventions I wanted are "only available with a midwife." Crap. What does that mean? I have tried contacting various entities but am getting conflicting information about what it means and what I need to do. It would be easiest, probably, to call my OB's office, but I already know better than to upset the apple cart unnecessarily with doctors. And part of me would feel... very weird... dumping my OB who was with me during my serious complication in early pregnancy. On the other hand, at the past two appointments, she hasn't even remembered who I was. I tried to find a Lamaze class in my area. A nice Lamaze teacher answered me. There is a class I could squeeze in before my due date, but the coach must attend classes with me. *If* I have a coach, it'll be my husband, who can't attend with me, because we couldn't find childcare for our three other children three Wednesday nights in a row. Mmmmkay. I have looked for doulas in the area. There are 2 that I can find using a web search. I am still not quite sure about how/where a doula would or wouldn't fit into all this. I would have to start contacting them and asking a lot of questions. But, I hate tying up people's time and energy when I am still totally unsure about what I, myself, am going to be needing. I also found a nice midwifery practice that does homebirths that looks enticing. But, I don't know if my previous complication prevents a homebirth, don't know if I am too far away from them (might be), and don't know how I would handle that with my insurance. I am tired of making inquiries and phone calls. I am tired of juggling the choices. And I am throwing a pity party for myself over my lack of available support and the fact that my careful choosing of a birth center w/ all the desired amenities early on has turned out to do nothing for me. It was such a good idea to wait until I was 30 weeks pregnant to start all this investigation! :glare:

I really like this. Your weekly routine speaks to me. (I edited so the quote wouldn't be soooo loooong.)

There are so many great replies here. Thanks for the advice and encouragement. I will look into Bradley, Lamaze, and Doulas in my area. Any other advice or encouragement is welcome.

I love your list of suggestions. Thank you for all of them. You are so right, especially, on #2. I have to say, though, the two suggestions I have quoted just throw me for a loop. I have available to me, medical-wise, whoever lives in the area and whatever hospitals have been built by other people. With the changes in medical insurance this year in the US I have been surprised by what isn't covered anymore in maternity care. I want to do what you say, but I really am more at the mercy of the system than anything. Or at least that's how I feel.

No. I do not have any close female relatives. My family prides itself on drama. The only one I can think of who has done natural childbirth has... issues... and has said some very odd things about pregnancy and child rearing to me. She also was critical of my breastfeeding. This is what I am worried about with DH. His first idea of supporting anyone is to just do the job for them.

Ok, this might sound weird, but the idea of a Doula makes me nervous. All I can think is: Another person I have to get to know and be involved with?! I have looked at a couple of books on Amazon about Bradley and Lamaze... There are quite a few and they seem to receive worrisome negative reviews... Like they are more of a morale supplement to a class you take. I don't have time for a class. I was hoping to find a good book I could read and utilize from the comfort of my home. My husband coaching me is an option. Although our roles are usually reversed in that respect.

I know, right? I wish. I do not live by that hospital anymore.

TMI alert. You're welcome. So I accidentally had baby #3 medication-free. I got to the hospital late. By the time the epidural guy arrived I was almost done with transition. So the pain-free labor I had experienced the first two times was not even an option. I just had to finish transition and pop the baby out. But there was this nurse. This older nurse with big shoulders. A labor and deliver nurse who told me to grab her shoulders, told me how to breathe, and reminded me to relax every time I wrenched my back into knot. And to my shock, when I breathed as she said, 80% of the pain I was experiencing disappeared. At the worst part of the contraction she let me squeeze her shoulders and groan/moan/yell. The she reminded me to relax as the next contraction began (mine are always back-to-back, no break, at that point). At some point my upset-with-me-for-waiting-to-come-in OB checked me and declared I was a 10. I laid down, pushed, and was finished. It hurt like crazy. And I told everyone, "That's why women have epidurals!" But, I've changed my mind. Yes it hurt like I've never hurt before. But, I don't care. I did it. I made it through. And... it really wasn't all that bad. Fun? No. Org-smic (like some claim)? Ha! But, still, I did it. I made it through. I lived to tell about it. And I want to do it again. I figure it this way. Some crazy women push themselves to run marathons. 26 miles of running! That's crazy. Medication-free childbirth ain't nearly as crazy as that. Also, I've been watching Call the Midwife. And I did read A Midwife's Tale back in the day. But, here's the thing. I've tried looking into finding out about the breathing the nurse made me do - to make it through the pain - and I can't seem to find such information extricated from a whole lot of other, unnecessary information. I am not having a home birth. I don't hate my OB and believe she is the devil incarnate. I will not practice self-hypnosis, etc. I don't need a bunch of new-age philosophy in order to be convinced that my body can give birth naturally. I just want the breathing techniques and maybe other truly pertinent information. For instance, some help with writing up an understandable birth plan would be welcome. The one thing I really don't like about baby #3's birth was the panic of everyone (save the nurse) in the delivery room. Everyone was like "Oh my God, she's in pain!?!" They even made me rush through the pushing because they were so freaked out. I don't want a repeat of that. Do you ladies have any books or websites you can direct me to?

Very same boat here, three years into homeschooling.

I could not follow this as a rule in my homeschool. No way. Although, as others have mentioned, my chosen pieces of curriculum don't usually fit that mold to begin with. However, at certain times, with certain subjects, and with extenuating circumstances, I have used the 80% logic, or something like it, to calm myself and be ok with being forced to not finish. But, I don't start out my year or a subject with that mindset.

I love, love, love my Peterson Field Guide. I often talk about birds with a friend. She has a different guide and we always go back to mine. The drawings are clearer, and there are more of them.

Math Bingo Stack the States

Yes. It's totally ok. Lots of almost 7 yo boys are like this. He will eventually learn to write if you continue to provide practice. My son disdained handwriting instruction also. He ignored the rules for when to use capitals. My solution was to 1) use a timer and, 2) make "correct" handwriting only a big deal during penmanship lessons and, 3) use cursive straightaway. One day I sat down and tried to complete a penmanship exercise on my own. I cannot even remember why. But, I do remember how tired my hand was after just ten minutes of trying to make exact, well-formed, properly spaced letters. I had a hand cramp. And I have legible, nice handwriting otherwise. So if it was hard for me, I figured it was stressing my son out. I decided to limit his toture sessions to a length of ten minutes. I took the time to introduce the correct way to do a letter, then set the timer and had him work as much of the paper as he could finish in that time. He had good days and bad days. I guided him as he wrote ("remember to retrace"). And I kept it all as positive as possible. I gave up expecting correct handwriting during his other activities. All the other drawing and writing he does help perfect his fine motor skills. It wasn't until 3rd grade that I thought he should be expected to transfer his acquired penmanship skills to his other assignments. I made the announcement at the beginning of the year. I was consistent in enforcing it. That worked well for us. HTH

The Lie is certainly a good choice. It might be worth it to look at the Answers book series, if you haven't been through those yet. Also of interest might be The Great Turning Point. It explores how evolution replaced creationism in the church. (FYI, I have not read it myself.) You may also just want to ask her to look through the available videos on AiG and pick out the ones whose topics interest her in particular. HTH

My son was reading close to the level of your son by the end of his Kindy year. And he is a child who does not like to sit still and cannot concentrate for long periods. He only did reading lessons because Mommy made him. I think your thoughts about why the teacher feels the way she does are probably pretty accurate. If, as you say, most kids don't attend pre-K before PS Kindergarten, then it would be the K teacher's expectation that the majority of her students would be illiterate at the beginning of the year. I finished my Elementary Ed degree about 10 years ago, and the firm expectation given to me was that getting kids to read CVC words by the end of Kindergarten was a high and lofty goal. My experience in PS as an intern matched this expectation. Not all PS operate with such expectations. If the population that feeds the school is generally interested in academically oriented preschool then the K teachers in that district tend to expect their new recruits to be operating on a higher level. This is the case in my district, so the schools expect beginning readers in K, but have an action plan for the small # of kids who are not. But, even then it is not the same as the private schools I have been involved with or homeschoolers in general. There does tend to be a noticable difference in the reading ability of the primary grades.

My advice is to ignore the whole "nerd" issue. Red herring. This is the crux of the issue, I think. My daughter does the same sort of thing. All grins and giggles until she has to stop, think, and use brain-power processes she would rather not use. Then she falls into a pile of tears and self-pity and becomes uncooperative. So that is what I make an issue out of: the attitude. I ignore the tears or pity party. I tell her something like, "You're not allowed to give up just because you actually have to work at this now. You will not always immediately know the answer to something just by looking at it. That's life. Having to work through this is not the end of the world." I'm nice like that. :tongue_smilie:

It is entirely possible that you have not overestimated your daughter's abilities. You said you spent quite a few weeks before the test being very light with academics. This alone could account for the lower-than-expected score(s). I, myself, am a perfect example of this. One year, quite by accident, I had an easy-peasy academic load. The test at the end of the school year showed lower-than-expected results. Enter next school year. The academic load was challenging. Just two months into the year I retook the test and scored miles above my first scores. MILES. I had not learned any great new concepts or ideas that made a difference on the test. I had not done any test prep. I had simply been more engaged academically for the period before the second testing. The work I was doing was on-level and there was more of it in every subject. I think this really did make the difference. Just another thought on the subject...

I see that this question posted for you several times in different formats. I'm am thinking this is the complete question? I am not quite sure how to express my opinion on this. But, it seems to me that you've made an unecessary distinction between fact memorization and understanding mathematics. Memorizing math facts does not automatically mean that the child forgets the WHY behind the math facts. It CAN do that. But, I think that only happens when math facts are constantly placed in front of children to be memorized like some sentence in a foreign language. My children memorized their math facts because they repeatedly worked out the problems using manipulatives, pictoral representations, and mental math. Their ability to recall the process behind the fact, and apply it to harder problems, was never diminished after they had successfully memorized the facts and recalled the answers "without thinking". I guess I never made the memorization part a separate activity, but trusted that through repeated use the facts would cement themselves. And that's how it worked out.

Thank you. These responses are really helpful. Even if my son needs some hand holding, it still seems there won't be as much time involvement needed from me on a daily basis as is currently expected with A Beka. This is what I need. As helpful as it has been to pull out flashcards, concept cards, posters, board work, etc. every day, I know I won't be able to keep all that organized next school year. And my son has always wanted to "just get on with the lesson". He is now capable of doing so without completely running over the lesson, so Saxon seems like a good idea.