Adults-only weddings

[LMD]

Dh lost a friend over this issue. Our <1 year old daughter was specifically not invited to the wedding. The groom had been dh's groomsman/witness, and even his parents came along for our ceremony.

It was a surprise to us that we couldn't bring her, there were quite a few babies/kids in our friendship group who had all been to other weddings and behaved well. Groom was in fact becoming a stepfather himself with this wedding and there were certainly going to be some close family kids there. At under 1 she would not need her own chair or meal. It was a daytime wedding.

 

I stayed out of it but dh was really hurt and said that he wouldn't go if his family was excluded.

 

On the flip side, I was slightly hurt that my own cousins weren't brought to my wedding because their parents - my aunts - preferred a fun, kid-free day (cousins were all in the 9+ age range, and I did set up a kid friendly atmosphere)

 

I'm with those who believe that weddings are a family/cultural milestone and it is good for everyone to include kids where possible. I also try to assume the best of people and mind my own business.

Edited September 14, 2016 by LMD

[Jane in NC]

Personally, I think too many adults today have forgot what a joy children can be. Sure the youngers interrupt inappropriately and don't lend to a serene environment.

They enliven whatever is going on around them! True, it IS up to the host, but I think in the OP's situation, and for invited guests who have young children, it was rather rude not to give a heads up. 

 

To be honest, I love hearing babies at funerals.  We were attending one last fall when a wee babe laughed during a quiet moment.  It brought a smile to everyone's faces and certainly reminded us that another generation awaits in the wings.

 

But I can see the challenge of young children in some wedding venues. My niece was in a beach wedding to which I was not invited.  I was at the beach though since I wanted to catch a glimpse of the bride, my niece as a bridesmaid, etc.  Niece's son ran from the wedding to the water with niece's husband following. I grabbed the boy and told the Dad that I could hang with the lad.  Dad went back to the ceremony and rescued a wet kid when it was over. 

[Reefgazer]

Not really - gluten free/dairy free can eat fish/meat, veggies, and fruit, standard meal fare. 

How insulting --- if they really wanted our family to attend they would have gluten free and dairy free meals!

 

Edited September 14, 2016 by reefgazer

[Reefgazer]

I was referring to valuing the parents' presence.

 

As I mentioned in my post, the babysitting can be made *available*, with parents paying the hourly rate if they chose to attend (no additional cost to the bridal couple).  This has the effect of actually giving the parents a realistic option to attend, not a fake option with an RSVP that everyone knows will come back with a "No". 

How does putting children in a separate room and providing pizza and a babysitter = valuing them? They're still not at the wedding. What exactly is the child getting out of that experience? It's not as if the 2 year old is going to have fond family memories of this wedding whether he's at the event or in another room. This puts the Special Snowflake status squarely on parents of infants expecting this level of service from a bride and groom. Why should they have to pay for their guests' babysitting? Are they also going to provide skilled nursing for my grandmother with dementia? They must not value her! 

 

If they host a party for children, omitting one child of several in a family group would show a lack of value for that particular child. Not inviting children in general means it's not an event for children. It doesn't make some blanket statement that they think children are valueless. 

 

[Alicia64]

I was bummed several years ago when a man I'd known forever married a second wife. She said, "no kids" even though he clearly wasn't on board, he just didn't want to upset her.

 

I slipped in, saw them be married, and then slipped out. We had twin four year olds -- and no family or sitters nearby.

 

Later I found out that one of his friends just said, "whatever" and brought in his kids.

 

The really annoying thing is that my boys would have been quiet and really well mannered; they would have known the experience was a solemn moment.

 

Just a bummer.

 

Alley

[AimeeM]

Not really - gluten free/dairy free can eat fish/meat, veggies, and fruit, standard meal fare. 

Sure, but if gluten-free is necessary because of intolerance or allergies, the naturally gluten free foods need to be prepared in a certified (or at least entirely) gluten-free/allergen-free environment. Around here most bakeries won't even offer GF or dairy free or "guaranteed allergen-free" because they can't guarantee no cross-contamination (I know because we tried to find a GF cake for my daughter years ago - one that was made for an event, not previously frozen and stuck in a grocery store freezer unit).

Edited September 14, 2016 by AimeeM

[marbel]

I was invited to a wedding once and I specifically asked if I could bring my baby. (The invite did not specify no kids) He was six months old and I had no one to watch him. The. We got there and babies were no permitted in the ceremony. It was a little awkward. The bride was happy to see the baby though. Other people seemed less enthused. The wedding started at 5 and we left at 10 and dinner still had not been served. I would have liked a little clearer direction regarding kids in that case.

 

 

The invitation doesn't need to say "no kids."  It should have the name(s) of the person/people invited.    That's how you know whether or not kids are included.

 

Sorry ealp but you inadvertently set me off on a rant.  Don't mean to pick on you, but this has been bothering me for some time.  I think it's so crazy that so often, people with kids either assume their kids are included in any invitation the adults receive, or they don't know if the kids are invited or not.  

 

Over the summer I had a going-away party for a friend.  I was very careful that the evites were "addressed" to the adults:

 

Lucy and Ricky Ricardo

Tom Petty and Joan Jett

Don Henley

Chrissie Hynde

 

But still people asked me if they could bring their kids. It's so awkward having to say "sorry, no, this party is for adults."  One family brought their kids anyway and that was really awkward - the mom said "I couldn't tell if it was OK to bring the kids or not."  Of course at that point I had to say it was fine, but it was obvious it wasn't since 75% of the people there were parents but there were no other kids.

 

It's the only family relationship this happens with.  If my daughter (who lives at home with mom, dad, and sibling) receives an invitation to a party, we assume she is the only one invited.  Invitations don't say "no parents, please!"   "No annoying big brothers."  Right?   It sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?  

[Valley Girl]

I was referring to valuing the parents' presence.

 

As I mentioned in my post, the babysitting can be made *available*, with parents paying the hourly rate if they chose to attend (no additional cost to the bridal couple).  This has the effect of actually giving the parents a realistic option to attend, not a fake option with an RSVP that everyone knows will come back with a "No". 

 

As people have pointed out, it's not just the issue of cost. There are MANY factors that make providing childcare for guests unrealistic (though not impossible), not the least of which is quite likely to be a scarcity of well-known and reliable caregivers willing to step up and do it. Not everyone has a list of responsible college-age kids who would love to step in or a bevy of loving grandmother-types with nothing else to do. Should the bridal couple place a want ad and hire strangers to do it? Parents can do that themselves if they're comfortable with that type of arrangement.

 

ETA: I think it's great if a couple has an accommodating venue and wants to provide something. It's the expectation that they're somehow obligated to solve people's childcare issues that frustrates me. I could just as easily say that if the guests valued being present for the wedding day, they would move heaven and earth to attend no matter what. But that would be ridiculous because there are plenty of reasons why people value the couple getting married but still can't attend.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Reluctant Homeschooler

[FaithManor]

Sure, but if gluten-free is necessary because of intolerance or allergies, the naturally gluten free foods need to be prepared in a certified (or at least entirely) gluten-free/allergen-free environment. Around here most bakeries won't even offer GF or dairy free or "guaranteed allergen-free" because they can't guarantee no cross-contamination (I know because we tried to find a GF cake for my daughter years ago - one that was made for an event, not previously frozen and stuck in a grocery store freezer unit).

Exactly. Any restaurant here that offers gf or dairy free only offer one or two items and with a big posted warning. I am allergic to wheat so eat at my own risk. Sis is a full blown celiac sufferer so no eating. I have coordinated 11 weddings in 3 years and do not have a single vendor in my list who will work around food allergies because in order to keep liability low, he or she would have to have more than one enclosed kitchen and supply room. The gf kitchen cannot have anything with wheat protein in it and employees cannot go between the two kitchens because of cross contamination. This does not even address nut issues which are even worse!

 

And on top of that, I also do not have a single wedding venue for receptions that will provide a second room for a gathering of babysat children. Most of the churches will not unlock their nursery/cry rooms during ceremonies and provide changing tables in their bathrooms. I don't blame them because they do not know what got used or didn't so have to provide a full disinfecting before Sunday worship.

 

It just is not reasonable.

[heartlikealion]

I believe etiquette is 4 weeks prior, which really isn't long enough for people making plane reservations etc. So I do think people traveling by plane should get a heads up, just so they can make some decisions. I wouldn't leave my kids with a baby sitter I don't know in a city that I'm traveling too. So I'd arrange for just one parent to go, or we'd send regrets, if kids were not invited. I'd want to know that before making plane reservations, which most people do 2 months out at least. 

 

Yeah, I was going back and forth on the "is the wedding invite a heads up?" thing because when it comes to booking flights you don't really want to push it that close!

 

[heartlikealion]

The invitation doesn't need to say "no kids."  It should have the name(s) of the person/people invited.    That's how you know whether or not kids are included.

 

Sorry ealp but you inadvertently set me off on a rant.  Don't mean to pick on you, but this has been bothering me for some time.  I think it's so crazy that so often, people with kids either assume their kids are included in any invitation the adults receive, or they don't know if the kids are invited or not.  

 

Over the summer I had a going-away party for a friend.  I was very careful that the evites were "addressed" to the adults:

 

Lucy and Ricky Ricardo

Tom Petty and Joan Jett

Don Henley

Chrissie Hynde

 

But still people asked me if they could bring their kids. It's so awkward having to say "sorry, no, this party is for adults."  One family brought their kids anyway and that was really awkward - the mom said "I couldn't tell if it was OK to bring the kids or not."  Of course at that point I had to say it was fine, but it was obvious it wasn't since 75% of the people there were parents but there were no other kids.

 

It's the only family relationship this happens with.  If my daughter (who lives at home with mom, dad, and sibling) receives an invitation to a party, we assume she is the only one invited.  Invitations don't say "no parents, please!"   "No annoying big brothers."  Right?   It sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?  

 

I think I could see this either way. You've also got people going, "well my address labels might only have adult names on it, even when something is from our household" or "I don't want to squeeze 'and kids' on this envelope." I guess you could go with "the XYZ family" on the invitation, but people may have reasons for not liking to address things that way. Maybe there are 4 Johnsons on their invitation list or extended family lives together and the invite is for just the people closest to them that live at that address, not every single person with the surname Johnson. I dunno.

[ktgrok]

I think I could see this either way. You've also got people going, "well my address labels might only have adult names on it, even when something is from our household" or "I don't want to squeeze 'and kids' on this envelope." I guess you could go with "the XYZ family" on the invitation, but people may have reasons for not liking to address things that way. Maybe there are 4 Johnsons on their invitation list or extended family lives together and the invite is for just the people closest to them that live at that address, not every single person with the surname Johnson. I dunno.

 

But...but..but....there are rules about this!

 

This is WHY there are rules, in fact. To avoid confusion. 

[Guest]

Still not understanding you. It's bad for churches to suggest that weddings are private affairs? If you get married in a church, you should publish it in the paper and invite in anyone and everyone who wants to appear? Churches should be public free-for-all spaces? 

 

Maybe I can chime in on this one, and Bluegoat will answer, as well.  This is one of the kinds of posts that is hard for me to make because it is so easy to sound snooty but that is not the reality.  It's just an explanation of how the Church of which I am a part believes, and why, and maybe that will go a little way in clarifying.  I'm an Orthodox Christian, FWIW.

 

Orthodoxy teaches that there are a number of sacraments.  More than 2, and at least 7, and we don't really have a "limit" because life itself is viewed sacramentally.  THAT is another discussion.  Life is also lived in communion...with Christ and with one another.  Sacramental living is by its nature communal living.  Which means that when there is a baptism or a wedding (we call them "crownings" and we don't have vows...) or a funeral or an offering of the Holy Eucharist...it's communal.  I wouldn't go so far as to say that everyone is *expected* to be there...but I will go so far as to say that everyone is *included* in the invitation to be there.  That doesn't preclude the couple from inviting those outside the Church--not at all--or from sending formal invitations to everyone they particularly wish to be there.  But if I show up for a wedding at my parish for which I did not receive an engraved invitation, I am not wrong to do so, because we live our lives in communion with one another.  

 

That said, no we don't send a notice to the urban daily newspaper and invite all comers, and the sanctuary is not the place where "free-for-all" would apply.  People bring their babies...or they don't.  If the babies or the children get out of hand, they get taken out of the sanctuary.  It really has not been a problem.  But we are generally not recording the service, anyway.  (No point--it is the same for everyone.  So everyone who is married can basically revisit their own crowning.)  

 

That is for the wedding.  The reception can be a private affair, but usually, rather than exclude anyone (due to cost or space) people prefer to go simple and include everyone.  We have wonderful dance receptions with all kinds of fun things to do...but it is as likely as not that the flowers have been brought and arranged by parishioners, the food catered by volunteers from the parish, instead of a live band, a talented parishioner as DJ, and the reception site an Elks Lodge (not the Ritz Carlton) and so on.

 

And, there are exceptions.  For example, a friend's son married a priest's daughter, and the parish is a small, small one.  That one, there had to be made an announcement that because of all the priests and their families and the largeness of both families, that this wedding had to be invitation-only.  And everyone understands when that happens.  But it is an exception.

 

I was turned away when I went to a funeral; I had NO idea that the deceased had died in a way that was causing a big civil disobedience problem and so the funeral had to be restricted for security's sake.  It was a new experience to be excluded, but the thing I remember being most disappointed about was that I scraped my new car's wheel on the curb trying to turn around and get out of there.  :0)  

 

Maybe the first paragraph was all I really needed to write; it is really about having a different mindset re: sacramental living in communion with one another.  That's the net-net.  

[heartlikealion]

But...but..but....there are rules about this!

 

This is WHY there are rules, in fact. To avoid confusion. 

 

True. I just think that lots of us (saying us because I'm including myself among society, not people in this thread in particular) are ignorant to certain rules or don't expect that the person composing the invite necessarily gave all the info. Sure, yes, I wouldn't think "no kids" if I saw Mr. and Mrs. on an invite. But I could see how depending on the relationship there might be a, "wait, is this intentionally leaving out the kids?"

Edited September 14, 2016 by heartlikealion

[Guest]

..

Edited September 16, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[Loowit]

But...but..but....there are rules about this!

 

This is WHY there are rules, in fact. To avoid confusion. 

 

There are "rules" but not everyone knows them or follows them on both sides.  My cousin's daughter got married a few years ago.  We got an invitation to the wedding.  It was addressed only to DH and I, so we assumed it was adults only.  We chose not to attend for a few reasons none of which were the adults only assumption.  I found out later that she expected us to know that it was a family event and that kids were invited also.  I was going just based on what was on the envelope.  This was the first time we got an invite that seemed to be adults only.

 

I find a lot of the time when we think that something is a pretty much universal rule of etiquette, it really is what we grew up with or see as the norm in our region or family of origin.

[FaithManor]

But...but..but....there are rules about this!

 

This is WHY there are rules, in fact. To avoid confusion.

Exactly.

 

No bride or groom can possibly anticipate every "practice" of every family.

Edited September 14, 2016 by FaithManor

[Guest]

Sure, but if gluten-free is necessary because of intolerance or allergies, the naturally gluten free foods need to be prepared in a certified (or at least entirely) gluten-free/allergen-free environment. Around here most bakeries won't even offer GF or dairy free or "guaranteed allergen-free" because they can't guarantee no cross-contamination (I know because we tried to find a GF cake for my daughter years ago - one that was made for an event, not previously frozen and stuck in a grocery store freezer unit).

 

I have a ton of allergies, so I'm not just talking through my hat here.

 

If I were celiac (which I am not), I wouldn't eat a single thing I couldn't read the label from.  

I am scary-allergic to nuts, eggs, and dairy.  I eat before I go to receptions/public gatherings.  Maybe there will be something I can eat...but maybe there won't.  And at least I won't have to leave.  I also carry stuff to eat in my car.  It's just not that big a deal, and I'd rather not eat something that might put me down for a few days.  

 

Aimee, I'm not keying off you you in particular...mostly saying that as an allergy sufferer, I don't feel that wedding hosts have to go berserk trying to find something for me to eat.  I can take care of it myself, and usualy would prefer to.  

[monstermama]

I broke multi-quote, but some more additional information.

 

We got the invite (addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Last-Name, so I realized when I saw it that it was adults-only) about 5 weeks before the wedding.  We got the save-the-date, gosh, sometime around Christmas, so over 9 months before the wedding.  I honestly have no clue who that was addressed to! 

 

Thank you for all the opinions.  I do really appreciate hearing different perspectives!  We usually go to 2-3 weddings a year, and all of the ones I remember have included kids, except one where the reception was held at a bar.  This one is an early afternoon ceremony with the reception around 3pm (which I knew before I got the invitation because I've listened to both my sister and my niece vent about issues finding a venue for the particular date she wanted).  I had this image in my head of adults-only weddings being highly formal black-tie affairs and that they weren't the norm.  With some of the stories shared, I can certainly understand why kids would not be welcome at weddings!

[ktgrok]

True. I just think that lots of us (saying us because I'm including myself among society, not people in this thread in particular) are ignorant to certain rules or don't expect that the person composing the invite necessarily gave all the info. Sure, yes, I wouldn't think "no kids" if I saw Mr. and Mrs. on an invite. But I could see how depending on the relationship there might be a, "wait, is this intentionally leaving out the kids?"

 

And that is the problem with a more informal society. Lots of benefits, don't get me wrong. I like being able to wear yoga pants on a plane rather than dressing up in a traveling suit. But when the rules of etiquette don't get passed down, you get confusion and hurt feelings. Breaking the rules on purpose is fine, if you already know them, but not knowing them causes problems. 

 

That's why there are books about how to do this, in every library. I didn't know it all, so when I got married I got a book :)

[Julie Smith]

The invitation doesn't need to say "no kids."  It should have the name(s) of the person/people invited.    That's how you know whether or not kids are included.

 

Sorry ealp but you inadvertently set me off on a rant.  Don't mean to pick on you, but this has been bothering me for some time.  I think it's so crazy that so often, people with kids either assume their kids are included in any invitation the adults receive, or they don't know if the kids are invited or not.  

 

Over the summer I had a going-away party for a friend.  I was very careful that the evites were "addressed" to the adults:

 

Lucy and Ricky Ricardo

Tom Petty and Joan Jett

Don Henley

Chrissie Hynde

 

But still people asked me if they could bring their kids. It's so awkward having to say "sorry, no, this party is for adults."  One family brought their kids anyway and that was really awkward - the mom said "I couldn't tell if it was OK to bring the kids or not."  Of course at that point I had to say it was fine, but it was obvious it wasn't since 75% of the people there were parents but there were no other kids.

 

It's the only family relationship this happens with.  If my daughter (who lives at home with mom, dad, and sibling) receives an invitation to a party, we assume she is the only one invited.  Invitations don't say "no parents, please!"   "No annoying big brothers."  Right?   It sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

 

I have gotten two wedding invites addressed just to me and Dh. No mention of, "and kids" or "the family". We rsvped to both saying we would be coming. For one of them both the bride and groom seemed surprised we didn't bring the kids because they were exited about seeing them and had a little something for them. For the other the bride said she was sorry the boys couldn't make it to the wedding.

 

So now I phone and check. When asking the bride/groom I let them know that it is their preference and I wouldn't be offended either way. I also wouldn't be offended if my kids aren't invited and other kids are.

[bettyandbob]

People make fun of etiquette books, but one of the things they provide is a reference to how to address an invitation and how to read it. Very basic. No one should be confused.

 

It's been 25 years since I got married. That's probably the last time I consulted an etiquette book. The info is probably online now.

 

In response to the pp who thinks people don't appreciate dc anymore, I don't think that's an issue. The issue is so many people ignore etiquette and don't know basic common niceties, that their dc have no sense how to behave in public anymore. Too many events at ruined by children running amuck. Too many parents are simply deaf to the own dc wailing. People planning events want them to be fun for all invited, not just for the children who do whatever they want. So the answer is to exclude the children.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Diana P.

[momto10blessings]

I'm not a fan and probably won't attend if they are adult only. but I won't hold it against them.

[Greta]

And that is the problem with a more informal society. Lots of benefits, don't get me wrong. I like being able to wear yoga pants on a plane rather than dressing up in a traveling suit. But when the rules of etiquette don't get passed down, you get confusion and hurt feelings. Breaking the rules on purpose is fine, if you already know them, but not knowing them causes problems. 

 

That's why there are books about how to do this, in every library. I didn't know it all, so when I got married I got a book :)

 

My dd and I were having a conversation the other day about this.  I was longing wistfully for the days when our society had more formal rules of etiquette, because for someone who is really socially awkward like me, it seems like it would be nice to know exactly what's expected of you rather than trying to wing it and figure it out as you go!  DD thinks that the advantages of an informal society outweigh the costs.  Perhaps she's right.  I haven't had occasion to actually compare - I'm just romanticizing based on 19th century novels.  :lol:

 

I need a book!  Emily Post?  Miss Manners?  Other?   

[Greta]

Too many events at ruined by children running amuck. Too many parents are simply deaf to the own dc wailing. People planning events want them to be fun for all invited, not just for the children who do whatever they want. So the answer is to exclude the children.

 

 

Yes. I think I've posted this in a similar thread before, because I'm having deja vu, but I attended a wedding once where one particular family's children were running around like it was a playground instead of a wedding reception.  They ran into a table, knocking over the centerpiece and glasses.  They ran into many guests, and the bride.  And the parents just sat and smiled obliviously and did absolutely nothing to curtail them in any way.  So I would suggest that the people who are upset at couples who don't invite children might consider redirecting their ire to the parents who don't parent, because I believe they are the ones ruining it for everyone.

[marbel]

My dd and I were having a conversation the other day about this.  I was longing wistfully for the days when our society had more formal rules of etiquette, because for someone who is really socially awkward like me, it seems like it would be nice to know exactly what's expected of you rather than trying to wing it and figure it out as you go!  DD thinks that the advantages of an informal society outweigh the costs.  Perhaps she's right.  I haven't had occasion to actually compare - I'm just romanticizing based on 19th century novels.   :lol:

 

I need a book!  Emily Post?  Miss Manners?  Other?   

 

I'm curious what advantages your daughter sees to doing away with etiquette rules.  That isn't meant to be snarky, if it reads like it.  I'm genuinely curious.  But I don't know if she is talking about truly formal etiquette, such as that practiced by wealthy elite (or nobility) with servants and such.   

 

It seems to me that people didn't like etiquette rules because they were too formal or stuffy or something, so people moved away from them.  So what have we replaced them with?  Confusion, hurt feelings, and even anger.  Hosts don't know how to extend invitations and guests don't know how to respond.  No one knows what is expected because there's no shared standard.   I dunno, that doesn't sound better to me.  :-)

[Guest]

My dd and I were having a conversation the other day about this. I was longing wistfully for the days when our society had more formal rules of etiquette, because for someone who is really socially awkward like me, it seems like it would be nice to know exactly what's expected of you rather than trying to wing it and figure it out as you go! DD thinks that the advantages of an informal society outweigh the costs. Perhaps she's right. I haven't had occasion to actually compare - I'm just romanticizing based on 19th century novels. :lol:

 

I need a book! Emily Post? Miss Manners? Other?

Miss Manners is hilarious and very readable. I put her Guide to Excrutiatingly Behavior on the back of the John and my son read it cover to cover. And thanked me.

 

It is an enormous help to have the assistance of etiquette. It's like traffic laws--if everyone knows what to expect from all the other drivers, everyone is more at ease as a driver.

[marbel]

I have gotten two wedding invites addressed just to me and Dh. No mention of, "and kids" or "the family". We rsvped to both saying we would be coming. For one of them both the bride and groom seemed surprised we didn't bring the kids because they were exited about seeing them and had a little something for them. For the other the bride said she was sorry the boys couldn't make it to the wedding.

 

So now I phone and check. When asking the bride/groom I let them know that it is their preference and I wouldn't be offended either way. I also wouldn't be offended if my kids aren't invited and other kids are.

 

When you responded to the invitation, did you say how many people were coming?  Most wedding invitations I get now have a website on which to rsvp, but some people still use the little card.  In any case, I've always needed to fill in a space with the number attending.  I guess they did not do that?  Otherwise they would have noticed that you said 2 people would be there, when they were expecting more, and they could have let you know to bring the kids. 

 

Weird that they expected the kids but didn't include them on the invitation.  

[Guest]

If I had a large family, I'd have a very small wedding at the church, followed by a big reception at a park or someplace--not a big catered meal--where everyone could come.

That's common around here - smaller ceremony, bigger and less formal reception.

[Greta]

I'm curious what advantages your daughter sees to doing away with etiquette rules. That isn't meant to be snarky, if it reads like it. I'm genuinely curious. But I don't know if she is talking about truly formal etiquette, such as that practiced by wealthy elite (or nobility) with servants and such.

 

It seems to me that people didn't like etiquette rules because they were too formal or stuffy or something, so people moved away from them. So what have we replaced them with? Confusion, hurt feelings, and even anger. Hosts don't know how to extend invitations and guests don't know how to respond. No one knows what is expected because there's no shared standard. I dunno, that doesn't sound better to me. :-)

I think she's just in favor of more relaxed etiquette rules, not getting rid of them entirely. For example, she likes to dress nicely for her classes, and for social events. But she also likes the ability to just wear a logo tee and some faded denim shorts when we go out for errands. (And dressing nicely by modern standards is a whole lot easier and more comfortable now than it was in the days when women had to don corsets and many layers before stepping out the door!)

 

She was saying that she thinks that more rigid/formal etiquette results in the violations of those rules being taken far more seriously, so she would be constantly nervous about messing up. Personally, I think more formal rules would be liberating, because then I wouldn't be stressed out wondering what I'm supposed to do. But I can kind of see her point too.

[Greta]

Miss Manners is hilarious and very readable. I put her Guide to Excrutiatingly Behavior on the back of the John and my son read it cover to cover. And thanked me.

 

It is an enormous help to have the assistance of etiquette. It's like traffic laws--if everyone knows what to expect from all the other drivers, everyone is more at ease as a driver.

Thanks, Patty Joanna! I just put it in my Barnes and Noble cart. :)

 

ETA: And I like your traffic analogy!

Edited September 15, 2016 by Greta

[Murphy101]

Would they move people so the invited guests could have seats or space? If a hundred people randomly appear for mass? Do the couple pay a rental fee for the facility? I wouldn't be upset about random people appearing but more people who were specifically not invited. BPD family members who've been cut out and would appear to create a spectacle type thing. They had a cop at the funeral home for one side of the family (not mine, lol).

I have no idea if they would move people or not. I'd think the job of ushers is to help people find a seat, so it'd hopefully be a non issue. I don't think a hundred people would just appear. Guess it could happen, but not in my local parishes. Maybe in a famous cathedral it might? Idk.

 

They do pay a fee to rent the reception areas, but I don't think they pay for the sanctuary area. Not sure. But they have the option of not having a Catholic wedding if they don't want to have a Catholic wedding with all that requires.

 

I guess a family could rent a cop if they felt it necessary. Otherwise I'd think family would have to step up and step out with the purposely not invited crazies.

[poppy]

Not really - gluten free/dairy free can eat fish/meat, veggies, and fruit, standard meal fare. 

 

 

 

I feel like my point was being lost.... so many people feel insulted if their kids aren't invited, the suggestion was  "just get a sitter and order pizza", my reply is that there are most definitely people who still be upset if their children's diets were not specifically catered to.  

[Χά�ων]

Not something I would ever do, and not common in my extended family, but it's their wedding, their money. But I also wouldn't likely attend, especially if it was out of town and no babysitters. If in town, I might try to make it to the ceremony but not the reception. Now that my kids are older, I would attend. Honestly, I can't recall ever attending a wedding without children.

Mostly this. I am unable to recall attending a wedding without children. I would attend an adult only wedding now that my son is older, but would miss having the kids around, the kids are more fun.

 

Whenever family weddings happened I volunteered to entertained the littles. Way more fun than dealing with last minute stresses and a job that I could never be pulled away from to do something else.

[Ellie]

 

I need a book!  Emily Post?  Miss Manners?  Other?   

 

Judith Martin's Miss Manners books are my favorite (and I've read them all, lol): Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior, Miss Manners' Guide to the Turn of the Millennium, Miss Manners' Guide to Rearing Perfect Children. Miss Manners On Weddings. Not only are they fun to read, but they really are excellent guides to correct behavior and all that. :-)

[KungFuPanda]

To be honest, I love hearing babies at funerals. We were attending one last fall when a wee babe laughed during a quiet moment. It brought a smile to everyone's faces and certainly reminded us that another generation awaits in the wings.

 

But I can see the challenge of young children in some wedding venues. My niece was in a beach wedding to which I was not invited. I was at the beach though since I wanted to catch a glimpse of the bride, my niece as a bridesmaid, etc. Niece's son ran from the wedding to the water with niece's husband following. I grabbed the boy and told the Dad that I could hang with the lad. Dad went back to the ceremony and rescued a wet kid when it was over.

Whoa, whoa, WHOA! You crashed the wedding. Somehow, at midnight, I'm enjoying picturing it. Everything is funny after midnight.

[HS Mom in NC]

I do wish she'd mentioned it to us before we got the invites so we could've planned better.  Do you think guests traveling from out-of-town should be given a heads-up about it through the grapevine?

 

I don't understand these two sentences.  The invitation, sent a month before the wedding, tells you it's adults only.  How is that not letting you know so you can plan well?  Aren't the out of town guests getting invitations that say adults only?  How is that not a heads up?  Am I missing something here?

 

My mother was a church organist during the 80s and played for scores of weddings. My favorite aunt was a wedding planner/coordinator for years.  I completely understand why people now do adults only weddings. It's mind boggling how many relatives allow terribly disruptive behavior from children during a wedding ceremony and reception events.  I'm not talking about minor things, I'm talking about screaming meltdowns over nothing, colicky babies in the sanctuary during the ceremony because the mommies really wanted to see the whole thing,  kids out of control knocking punch bowls over, and such.

 

I don't think weddings are about community-I don't think they have been for a century. They're not about any family traditions the bride and groom have chosen not to include. They're about what the couple wants.  I also don't believe that American culture is monolithic enough for books about the "right" behavior at a wedding to be universally applicable.  If never has been. Sorry.  I've been to a wide range of weddings from all sorts of different family and religious traditions.  America is a hugely diverse place and the dramatic variations in norms at milestone celebrations (weddings, baby showers, birthday parties) reflects that fact whether people want to recognize it or not.

 

If people get an invitation that doesn't have "Family" on it, then they need to ask if the kids are invited too. Some people send the invitation addressed to the parents when the whole family is invited.  Some people address the invitation to only the people in the household  who are invited.  People can complain that it's not universally standardized, but it isn't universally standardized. It's never going to be universally standardized. Don't invest emotion in things beyond your control and you'll be generally happier.  When parents ask if their kids are invited, they should be prepared to graciously accept the answer they're given, even if they don't like it.  It's not their wedding.  At their  wedding they can do it any way they want. If the invitation says no kids, then it's no kids.  It's a very bad idea to take offense at it or take it personally; people who choose not to take it personally are generally happier.   Not everyone gets an invitation to everything every time. That's how the adult world works. Like I said, when it's your event you can do it your way.

[Zinnia]

I don't understand these two sentences.  The invitation, sent a month before the wedding, tells you it's adults only.  How is that not letting you know so you can plan well?  Aren't the out of town guests getting invitations that say adults only?  How is that not a heads up?  Am I missing something here?

 

 

 

 

In our family, a niece's wedding, the child of my SISTER, would be close enough that there would be conversations ahead of time about travel and accomodations.  For us, no, a month isn't a long time to plan that, but I'm thinking about pretty significant travel, not an hour away, either.  And as part of those conversations, I could see my SISTER or my NIECE mentioning that it's adult only, to give me a heads up.  

 

This is not a random invite.  This is a very close relative, and the wedding involves travel.  For this case, I'd say a heads up is appropriate.

[heartlikealion]

And that is the problem with a more informal society. Lots of benefits, don't get me wrong. I like being able to wear yoga pants on a plane rather than dressing up in a traveling suit. But when the rules of etiquette don't get passed down, you get confusion and hurt feelings. Breaking the rules on purpose is fine, if you already know them, but not knowing them causes problems. 

 

That's why there are books about how to do this, in every library. I didn't know it all, so when I got married I got a book :)

 

I have an Emily Post book at my house. I'm just saying I don't normally open it and I don't expect that everyone is using it. It won't help me decode their invite if they weren't going by a book to begin with.

 

ETA: we're talking about a society that often doesn't acknowledge an RSVP. I left a phone number on mine and people still didn't respond.

Edited September 15, 2016 by heartlikealion

[Jane in NC]

Whoa, whoa, WHOA! You crashed the wedding. Somehow, at midnight, I'm enjoying picturing it. Everything is funny after midnight.

 

Actually I did not crash the wedding.  Many beaches are public.  Niece was in a wedding on private property visible from the public beach.  Grand nephew was the toddler who shot through the crowd and ran to the water (public beach) because why would anyone go to the beach and not go in the water??  They were grateful that I was there to intercept the runaway.

 

Beach weddings are common where I live.  They are often problematic--wind, gawking tourists, lack of understanding of tides by well intentioned planners, nosy aunts...

[ktgrok]

I have no idea if they would move people or not. I'd think the job of ushers is to help people find a seat, so it'd hopefully be a non issue. I don't think a hundred people would just appear. Guess it could happen, but not in my local parishes. Maybe in a famous cathedral it might? Idk.

 

They do pay a fee to rent the reception areas, but I don't think they pay for the sanctuary area. Not sure. But they have the option of not having a Catholic wedding if they don't want to have a Catholic wedding with all that requires.

 

I guess a family could rent a cop if they felt it necessary. Otherwise I'd think family would have to step up and step out with the purposely not invited crazies.

 

I'm pretty sure there is not a rental fee. Perhaps a cleaning fee, but not a rental fee, for the sanctuary. You pay an honorarium (gift) to the Priest, for any musical people you use, set up or clean up, but not the use of the sanctuary because by being a member of the parish it is already for your use. 

[ktgrok]

I don't understand these two sentences.  The invitation, sent a month before the wedding, tells you it's adults only.  How is that not letting you know so you can plan well?  Aren't the out of town guests getting invitations that say adults only?  How is that not a heads up?  Am I missing something here?

 

 

If you need to make plane reservations and are trying to get a decent price, and arrange time off of work, no, 1 month is often not enough in this day and age. 2 months is advised for plane tickets. That is why people send save the date cards.  If they buy a plane ticket for each kid, then find out they aren't invited when you get the invitation a month later, that's a problem. 

[Reefgazer]

In which case, it is appropriate for the guest to ask to bring their own food.  Food allergies, like diabetes, doesn't need to be an impediment to attending a wedding; it is a totally different set of circumstances than a babysitter.

Sure, but if gluten-free is necessary because of intolerance or allergies, the naturally gluten free foods need to be prepared in a certified (or at least entirely) gluten-free/allergen-free environment. Around here most bakeries won't even offer GF or dairy free or "guaranteed allergen-free" because they can't guarantee no cross-contamination (I know because we tried to find a GF cake for my daughter years ago - one that was made for an event, not previously frozen and stuck in a grocery store freezer unit).

 

[Reefgazer]

I highly doubt that there is a scarcity of known child care providers among a large group of people partying in/near their hometown (I agree destinations weddings are difficult for this).  I don't see child care issues as anything special - no more so than planning a meal, reserving a block of hotel rooms, or coordinating parking for the reception.

As people have pointed out, it's not just the issue of cost. There are MANY factors that make providing childcare for guests unrealistic (though not impossible), not the least of which is quite likely to be a scarcity of well-known and reliable caregivers willing to step up and do it. Not everyone has a list of responsible college-age kids who would love to step in or a bevy of loving grandmother-types with nothing else to do. Should the bridal couple place a want ad and hire strangers to do it? Parents can do that themselves if they're comfortable with that type of arrangement.

 

ETA: I think it's great if a couple has an accommodating venue and wants to provide something. It's the expectation that they're somehow obligated to solve people's childcare issues that frustrates me. I could just as easily say that if the guests valued being present for the wedding day, they would move heaven and earth to attend no matter what. But that would be ridiculous because there are plenty of reasons why people value the couple getting married but still can't attend.

 

[Reefgazer]

But then they can provide their own food, worse case scenario.  It's not difficult to accommodate food allergies or illnesses like diabetes, but not providing childcare or saying no kids nearly guarantees the kid-couple won't attend.  My point was, why pretend it's important that they be there if the wedding couple has made it almost a sure-fire that they cannot?

I feel like my point was being lost.... so many people feel insulted if their kids aren't invited, the suggestion was  "just get a sitter and order pizza", my reply is that there are most definitely people who still be upset if their children's diets were not specifically catered to.  

 

[Pam in CT]

Actually I did not crash the wedding.  Many beaches are public.  Niece was in a wedding on private property visible from the public beach.  Grand nephew was the toddler who shot through the crowd and ran to the water (public beach) because why would anyone go to the beach and not go in the water??  They were grateful that I was there to intercept the runaway.

 

Beach weddings are common where I live.  They are often problematic--wind, gawking tourists, lack of understanding of tides by well intentioned planners, nosy aunts...

 

 

:lol: Having fun imagining the consequences, here...

[marbel]

If you need to make plane reservations and are trying to get a decent price, and arrange time off of work, no, 1 month is often not enough in this day and age. 2 months is advised for plane tickets. That is why people send save the date cards.  If they buy a plane ticket for each kid, then find out they aren't invited when you get the invitation a month later, that's a problem. 

 

I agree - four weeks is definitely not enough time for out-of-town guests to plan.   A quick google search brought me this:

 

 

1. When should we send out our wedding invitations?

Traditionally, invitations go out six to eight weeks before the wedding -- that gives guests plenty of time to clear their schedules and make travel arrangements if they don't live in town. If it's a destination wedding, give guests more time and send them out three months ahead of time. Most couples also send out save-the-date cards. They go out at six to eight months.

 

 

This is from theknot.com, which as far as I can tell from wedding invitations I've received recently, is pretty popular. 

 

Oh, here's their comment on adults-only weddings:

 

 

5. We're having an adults-only wedding (no kids). How can we make sure this is clear to our guests?

Address your invitations correctly -- to each guest by name, not “and guest" -- and guests should understand that the invite is meant for only those mentioned. If you find that some reply with their children's names added, give them a call and explain that you're having an adults-only wedding and that you hope they can still attend. If there are a lot of kids in your family, you may want to consider hiring or arranging for a babysitter. It's definitely not required, but it's a nice gesture. Just be sure to include this information on the wedding website.

 

(ETA: re: the bolded about hiring babysitters - this advice I disagree with.  I'm in the camp of "parents should arrange their own childcare."  In the case of a small wedding with not too many kids, I'd reconsider.  My daughter (along with 2 other teens) provided childcare for a medium-sized wedding/reception in a situation where all the caregivers knew the kids, had cared for them before, etc.  That worked well. But generally - no.)

 

None of this is new to me; as far as I know these etiquette guidelines have been around at least as long as I have (60 years!) and have been followed at nearly every wedding I've known of, in 4 different states.     That's probably why I don't  understand all the confusion and not knowing what to do.  

Edited September 15, 2016 by marbel

[skimomma]

I highly doubt that there is a scarcity of known child care providers among a large group of people partying in/near their hometown (I agree destinations weddings are difficult for this).  I don't see child care issues as anything special - no more so than planning a meal, reserving a block of hotel rooms, or coordinating parking for the reception.

 

It really is not that simple.  Having tried it myself I ran into issues with the venue right away.  They were not going to accommodate us by providing use of another room or allowing non-catered food in for the kids.  This was before we even tackled the fact that we had no sitters in mind.  It was not a destination wedding but it did take place in my home town where I no longer lived so yes, there was a "scarcity of known (and trusted) child care providers."  My 65 year old mother certainly did not have her finger on the babysitter crowd at that point in her life and neither did any of my other aging relatives.  If a plethora of other venues were available (perhaps one that would have been more accommodating) we would not have been in the situation to begin with.  Had we been able to find an available venue with higher capacity, we would not have had to limit the guest list to begin with.

 

That is just one example of why it was not that simple.  Child care is more special than parking or hotel rooms because real live children are involved.  

[Valley Girl]

I highly doubt that there is a scarcity of known child care providers among a large group of people partying in/near their hometown (I agree destinations weddings are difficult for this).  I don't see child care issues as anything special - no more so than planning a meal, reserving a block of hotel rooms, or coordinating parking for the reception.

 

Maybe not where you live. Maybe not with your crowd. But that is absolutely NOT the case everywhere or within every social circle. Between expectations like this and people who can't be bothered to RSVP and then actually stick with that answer, I'm really starting to hope my kids elope.

 

 

ETA: Sorry, I don't mean to sound harsh. I'm just not understanding why--when people who have BTDT give you real-life examples of how it ISN'T easy--you keep insisting it is.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Reluctant Homeschooler

[skimomma]

but not providing childcare or saying no kids nearly guarantees the kid-couple won't attend.  My point was, why pretend it's important that they be there if the wedding couple has made it almost a sure-fire that they cannot?

 

Not true.  I have attended many child-free weddings and I have arranged my own child care.  There are two that I did not attend because I could not.  Probably 20+ that I did when dd was still young enough that child care was necessary.  

 

I had a child-free wedding.  Of the people we invited with kids, none did not attend due to child care issues.  The locals arranged their own child care and the out of towners either left their kids with a caregiver at home or asked for our assistance in finding local options.  To say it "nearly guarantees" they won't attend is an exaggeration.  

 

On a side note, we have attended a handful of weddings where group child care was arranged.  We made use of it twice.  It was a disaster.  A group of kids being supervised by a group of sitters that do not know those kids in an unfamiliar setting resulted in us leaving early with a distraught kid.  

 

My dh owns a business that throws a very large party for clients every year.  It is adult only (venue is 18 and up) but many people have trouble finding child care so he does do the "kids room with sitters" thing and frankly it is a hot mess every year.  The parents, many of which are repeaters, still say they want it.  But really, the parents are constantly being called back to calm upset toddlers or inconsolable crying or wet pants or whatever.....  The kids are bored and just want to troll the party.  It is impossible to find a movie or activity that will engage kids from 1-12 years old.  Picky eaters and allergies.  Blah blah blah.  We get hit with it all and it really is not simple or ideal.  I really cannot see how the parents manage enjoy themselves.  But we will continue to provide it as long as the venue allows and parents demand it.  I will say that we have to pay those sitters very very well.  It is a thankless job.  And that is only for two hours!  I cannot imagine making ti work well for more time.