I'm going to be judgmental for a minute...

[ktgrok]

I'm only halfway into my coffee, and have PMS, so I apologize if this comes off harsher than it should. But am I the only one that thinks it is strange that Lucy Liu used a gestational surrogate not because she had any fertility problems, but because she was too busy to be pregnant???? She said she was working and didn't know when she'd have time to stop, so she used a gestational surrogate???  All I can think is, if you are working too hard to be pregnant, how will you have time for a baby??? And is this a standard we want to set for career women, that rather than allow ourselves to slow down a bit if need be, we should pay someone else to carry the baby for us? 

 

To be clear, I have a friend who has been a surrogate,a nd although I have my concerns about the idea when it comes to protecting women, legal issues, and other things, that isn't what this is about in this case. I just think it is so bizarre, and I do wonder if we will start seeing bosses saying 'No, you don't need maternity leave, or to stop dong dangerous work because you are pregnant, just hire a surrogate". 

 

Edited to add: It seems I may have misread, and she actually meant she hadn't had time previously, and now is older so using a surrogate, which makes so much more sense to me. 

Edited May 7, 2016 by ktgrok

[DawnM]

Well, if I could have afforded it, I may have chosen that.  I am kidding......sort of.

 

I have never lost the FIFTY extra pounds I gained through pregnancy.  My body is gone.  Shot to heck in a hand basket.

 

Most of the TV women don't have a lot of time for their kids.  They have 24/7 nannies.  I don't think she will be much different, so that actually doesn't bother me. If we want to get a on a bandwagon, we need to do it across the board.

 

And she may have other reasons she isn't mentioning.  

[DawnM]

And she already has one child born via gestational surrogate, Aug of 2015.

[JustEm]

To each their own. I hate pregnancy and wish it were over the second I find out I'm pregnant. But I love my kids and have planned to have all of them. If she doesn't want to be pregnant for whatever reason then I'm not going to judge her decision to have a child another way.

 

And finding time for pregnancy as an actress can be very different than finding time to be a parent. That bump really limits the roles you can get.

[poppy]

Maybe she's lying. None of our business.

[Daria]

I'm coming from this perspective as someone who chose to build my family through adoption, without ever attempting to get pregnant.  

 

When we judge people in this way, saying that it's fine to make surrogacy a second choice, but not a first choice, we're really saying that surrogacy isn't good enough.  That it isn't equal to becoming a parent the old fashioned way, it's less.  I'm not comfortable with that line of thinking.  

 

 

Edited May 8, 2016 by Daria

[Danestress]

Lucy Liu is not obliged to worry about what standard "we want to set" for career women. "We" aren't setting any standards, and I don't think lumping all women who get paid to do something into the category 'career women' and then treating the decisions of one of those women as setting standards for the rest makes sense.

 

And women 47 years old have a fertility problem almost by definition. That doesn't mean they can't get pregnant and carry to term, but the odds are much lower.

[maize]

OK, I admit that this feels icky to me, like a baby is just a product, and yeah, if you don't have time for pregnancy how will you find the time to raise the child for the next 18 years or so?

 

But...

 

Every father in the world becomes a parent without going through pregnancy.

[Guest]

I know a woman who had to do artificial insemination because her husband travelled too much with his job to have time to get pregnant. I think both situations are messed up.

[marbel]

NM. Offense not intended.

Edited May 7, 2016 by marbel

[poppy]

She's 47? I think not getting pregnant at 47 is entirely rational. And so is adding to your family. She is busy she says - but obviously also has the means to not work if she so chooses .

[ktgrok]

I want to clarify, I don't wish her ill, or think she's a bad person, or that her family is in ANY way, less. It's more the reasoning that struck me...saying she just didn't want to be pregnant would make sense to me. Saying she's too busy to be pregnant kind of didn't make sense to me...and it struck me as sad if we are saying women don't have time for pregnancy. 

 

Although maybe I misunderstood, I didn't realize how old she was. Maybe she meant she had been so busy she didn't have time to be a mom, and then it was "too late" so she went with a surrogate? That I would get too. It's the idea of I'm too busy for pregnancy that just seemed so odd to me. 

 

But if I ever met her I'd just congratulate her, because babies are a blessing, no matter what. 

[J-rap]

I feel a little uncomfortable about that too.  (And that says absolutely nothing against adoption.)  I know some young women who are considering putting off pregnancy altogether because they don't want it to affect their bodies that they have worked so hard to get just right.  I feel kind of sad about that.

 

That being said, I see society going more and more in the direction of having someone else carrying their babies, and wouldn't be surprised at all if someday in the future babies are grown in little pods in a pod hospital.  Maybe by then, it won't seem weird at all!

[Daria]

I want to clarify, I don't wish her ill, or think she's a bad person, or that her family is in ANY way, less. It's more the reasoning that struck me...saying she just didn't want to be pregnant would make sense to me. Saying she's too busy to be pregnant kind of didn't make sense to me...and it struck me as sad if we are saying women don't have time for pregnancy. 

 

Although maybe I misunderstood, I didn't realize how old she was. Maybe she meant she had been so busy she didn't have time to be a mom, and then it was "too late" so she went with a surrogate? That I would get too. It's the idea of I'm too busy for pregnancy that just seemed so odd to me. 

 

But if I ever met her I'd just congratulate her, because babies are a blessing, no matter what. 

 

She has a job that doesn't mesh well with pregnancy, because her appearance matters.  On the other hand, many Hollywood stars seem to do a great job of meshing parenting and acting.  Because of the stop and start nature of most TV sets, it's easy to have a nanny care for the baby on set, and visit with mom or dad during breaks.  

[Soror]

I read that article this week and that is not exactly how I read it at all. I read it that her time is running out and she had been busy with her career and hadn't noticed. I mean it is not like you are guaranteed to get pregnant right away as soon as you want and even if she tried naturally her relationship status is also unclear from what I could find. I could see the desire to have a kid on your own to make sure to avoid in potential future custody battles, especially for celebrities. Fwiw I didn't enjoy pregnancy either and most of mine weren't bad either. IF you have no ethical qualms with surrogacy it seems like the perfect solution for her situation- career that doesn't easily allow for pregnancy, older women who might have difficulty conceiving and high chance of problems and relationship that isn't of the type that you want a child attached to it.

Edited May 7, 2016 by soror

[Daria]

Yeah, I think I get you, Katie.  There is something... icky, as a pp said... about it to me.

 

But re: adoption - I see building a family through adoption as completely different than something like this.   I think people who adopt are heroes.

 

Please don't call me a hero, it comes with a strong connotation that the child is a burden or a sacrifice.  My son is neither.

 

I parent my child for the same reasons you parent yours, and I get the same rewards!

[lmrich]

She is 47! I will be judgemental - she looks amazing!!! 

I think she must have meant she was too busy to get pregnant when she was younger. Sometimes life sneaks up on you like that. 

 

 

[marbel]

Please don't call me a hero, it comes with a strong connotation that the child is a burden or a sacrifice.  My son is neither.

 

I parent my child for the same reasons you parent yours, and I get the same rewards!

I am sorry I offended you.  I certainly did not mean to imply anything negative about adoption or adopted children, quite the contrary.

[Katy]

She's 47.  She's lying, she had to use a donor egg, but she can't say that in Hollywood because anything that calls attention to her actual age will lead to her being cast as a grandmother, even though she looks like she's in her early 30's.  By having a baby now, she can pretend to be 20 years younger.  It's just a career thing, there is NO WAY she has no fertility issues at 47.  It's not possible.

[heartlikealion]

She has a job that doesn't mesh well with pregnancy, because her appearance matters.  On the other hand, many Hollywood stars seem to do a great job of meshing parenting and acting.  Because of the stop and start nature of most TV sets, it's easy to have a nanny care for the baby on set, and visit with mom or dad during breaks.  

 

Sometimes the pregnancy gets written into the script, other times awkwardly hidden by taller camera shots. Of course if you gain weight in your face it might not be as easy to hide.

[momacacia]

I totally understand not trying to get pregnant at 47. Also, this may not be unlike the British aristocracy of old (if my history is right). Sure, the moms had to have the babies but then Nanny took over and the kids saw mum and dad for about an hour a day and then went back to Nanny or whoever, before they were shipped off to boarding school of course.

 

Culture is huge and varied. Through experience I'm certainly persuaded that this SAH homeschooling all kids all the time lifestyle isn't the healthiest for many women, either.

 

Liu's decision isn't one I'd want to make and the British upper class lifestyle isn't one I'd want myself or my kids to live, but people have survived it. I understand the judgment, though, and I'd like to think in this situation that I'd give a real hard look at adopting a child who needed a family just as I felt a need for a child to love.

[City Mouse]

I agree that this is just a different version of what has always happened in wealthy families. Wet nurses used to be considered normal.

[ktgrok]

I definitely didn't realize how old she is, and that does color my feelings. As did finishing the full cup of coffee! I do think I read it wrong, and she meant she didn't have time when she was younger, and now this was the best/safest/etc option. That makes more sense to me.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Women selling their bodies to men:  backwards progress in feminist movement.

 

Women selling their bodies to other women: forward progress in feminist movement!  

 

Yay progress!  

 

Ok, I'm stepping out now.  I hate to be controversial and run, but I've got to knead pizza dough.  

[Reefgazer]

I don't think the OP was saying this.  I think she was saying that if you don't have the time to be pregnant, how do you have time for a child?  Justifiable question, IMO.  A nanny does not mean she has time for a child; it means the nanny has time for a child.  Granted, it's no one's business, but she kind of made it the public's business by publically putting it out there, 'ya know?  Having a baby via surrogate because she was too old is a different animal, I think.

I'm coming from this perspective as someone who chose to build my family through adoption, without every attempting to get pregnant.  

 

When we judge people in this way, saying that it's fine to make surrogacy a second choice, but not a first choice, we're really saying that surrogacy isn't good enough.  That it isn't equal to becoming a parent the old fashioned way, it's less.  I'm not comfortable with that line of thinking.  

 

Edited May 7, 2016 by reefgazer

[Reefgazer]

Bingo!

She's 47.  She's lying, she had to use a donor egg, but she can't say that in Hollywood because anything that calls attention to her actual age will lead to her being cast as a grandmother, even though she looks like she's in her early 30's.  By having a baby now, she can pretend to be 20 years younger.  It's just a career thing, there is NO WAY she has no fertility issues at 47.  It's not possible.

 

[ktgrok]

She may not have used a donor egg if she froze embryos earlier.

[Spryte]

Please don't call me a hero, it comes with a strong connotation that the child is a burden or a sacrifice. My son is neither.

 

I parent my child for the same reasons you parent yours, and I get the same rewards!

This. Yes. Thank you for both of your posts, and articulating what I felt. Both times.

[Guest]

Women selling their bodies to men:  backwards progress in feminist movement.

 

Women selling their bodies to other women: forward progress in feminist movement!  

 

Yay progress!  

 

Ok, I'm stepping out now.  I hate to be controversial and run, but I've got to knead pizza dough.  

 

This might be controversial if it made any sense.

 

I go to all the underground feminist revolt planning meetings//howl at the moon naked in the woods meetings and let me set you at ease: no one has ever made this statement.

 

But, like you, I too cheer progress, sister! Hooray for not being chattel equivalents because of our gender! It's the best!

[JustEm]

But imagine if she had said she was doing it because she didn't want to get pregnant. People would be judging her even more I think because they would view it as selfish and vain to want a child but not want it to mess her body up.

 

It is all just more mommy wars in my opinion and it needs to stop

[Mimm]

Having a baby is an invitation to start the judging. I feel for moms everywhere and celebrity moms even more. No matter what you do, you can rest easy in the knowledge that you're doing it wrong. :)

 

:grouphug:  Katie. Glad you're feeling better after your coffee.

Edited May 7, 2016 by Mimm

[Mergath]

Women selling their bodies to men:  backwards progress in feminist movement.

 

Women selling their bodies to other women: forward progress in feminist movement!  

 

Yay progress!  

 

Ok, I'm stepping out now.  I hate to be controversial and run, but I've got to knead pizza dough.  

 

Progress is each of us deciding what to do with our own bodies and not having someone else decide for us. And it's getting to make those choices freely, not having to do it out of financial desperation.

 

Some women become surrogates because they're done having their own kids and they want to help someone else have children. I see nothing wrong with that. 

[MercyA]

I'm more concerned about the enormous number of human lives lost in the process of artificial fertilization. Some are thrown away due to genetic imperfections; others are "selectively reduced" if too many of their siblings implant; 1 in 3 fails to survive the freezing process; 19 of 20 fail to survive injection into the uterus. So, yes, even after suffering from infertility for many years myself, I don't support Lucy Liu's decision.

[marbel]

I was up until 3am last night (getting an adult child home from college), and today I feel like I've been hit by a semi truck. And I'm only 44. There obviously no way I could cope with a non-sleeping tiny human being for any length of time NOW like I did when I was in my 20s and 30s. Just can't. I know women have babies well into their 40s (whether by birth, surrogacy, or adoption) , but OMG I have no idea how. I'm exhausted. (LOL)

 

:001_smile: I had my kids at 41 and almost-43, but... since they are the only two I had, I don't know any different.  So far, so good.  :)

 

(Maybe it's because I got a lot of sleep all those years I didn't have kids? :) )

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I was up until 3am last night (getting an adult child home from college), and today I feel like I've been hit by a semi truck. And I'm only 44. There obviously no way I could cope with a non-sleeping tiny human being for any length of time NOW like I did when I was in my 20s and 30s. Just can't. I know women have babies well into their 40s (whether by birth, surrogacy, or adoption) , but OMG I have no idea how. I'm exhausted. (LOL)

Ha! DH and I kept a friend's 2yo for a couple of hours recently. He was such a sweetie but we were DEAD when he left.

[Guest]

DH has a co-worker. Second marriage for both. He has no kids. She has one in college. Surprise! Pregnant at 46. They are slowly getting excited-ish.

[poppy]

I totally understand not trying to get pregnant at 47. Also, this may not be unlike the British aristocracy of old (if my history is right). Sure, the moms had to have the babies but then Nanny took over and the kids saw mum and dad for about an hour a day and then went back to Nanny or whoever, before they were shipped off to boarding school of course.

 

Culture is huge and varied. Through experience I'm certainly persuaded that this SAH homeschooling all kids all the time lifestyle isn't the healthiest for many women, either.

 

Liu's decision isn't one I'd want to make and the British upper class lifestyle isn't one I'd want myself or my kids to live, but people have survived it. I understand the judgment, though, and I'd like to think in this situation that I'd give a real hard look at adopting a child who needed a family just as I felt a need for a child to love.

 

British aristocracy of not all that old at all..... did you watch Downton Abbey? That show was set in the 1920s and the aristocrat kids were still being raised that way. (Except the bastard Marigold, in the end). 

[natalie]

I was up until 3am last night (getting an adult child home from college), and today I feel like I've been hit by a semi truck. And I'm only 44. There obviously no way I could cope with a non-sleeping tiny human being for any length of time NOW like I did when I was in my 20s and 30s. Just can't. I know women have babies well into their 40s (whether by birth, surrogacy, or adoption) , but OMG I have no idea how. I'm exhausted. (LOL)

 

 

I had baby #10 in December at the ripe old age of 46 1/2.  It has been the easiest baby by far in regard to dealing with lack of sleep.

 

As it turns out, middle-age induced insomnia pairs perfectly with middle of the night feedings and baby care!

[HS Mom in NC]

Being an adoptive parent is no more or less heroic than being a biological parent.  The term heroic implies it's greater.  I've done both.  They're different, but one isn't more heroic than other.

[Spryte]

Being an adoptive parent is no more or less heroic than being a biological parent. The term heroic implies it's greater. I've done both. They're different, but one isn't more heroic than other.

I agree.

 

And spinning off of this, we've gotten playground comments along the lines of, "they are so lucky to have you," and no - we are lucky to have them in our lives, the same way all parents are "lucky" to have their kids.

 

Families are families, however they are made.

[Daria]

I agree.

 

And spinning off of this, we've gotten playground comments along the lines of, "they are so lucky to have you," and no - we are lucky to have them in our lives, the same way all parents are "lucky" to have their kids.

 

Families are families, however they are made.

Yes! I hear this one often, when I am in a certain mood I've been known to say "That's funny. From where I sit your kids seem like the lucky ones."

[Spryte]

Yes! I hear this one often, when I am in a certain mood I've been known to say "That's funny. From where I sit your kids seem like the lucky ones."

Great response, for those certain days!

[Bluegoat]

It would make me wonder.  But there are so many variables when talking about one individual, who may well not feel she needs to answer instrusive questions totally truthfully.

 

But in terms of overall trends, I think it seems to fit into a catagory of women being expected to make their bodies fit into a system that views them as essentially mechanistic, and individuals as existing to work.

 

It reminds me a little of the company (was it google or microsoft) that so kindly wanted to offer it's female employees the opportunity to freeze their eggs so they could concentrate on their careers now.  There just seems to be something of a lack of perspective.

[Reefgazer]

40 and 42 here for my pregnancies.  I have no idea what it would feel like to be pregnant at 25.  But at 53, I still feel I would have the stamina to go another round, so it couldn't have been too bad!

:001_smile: I had my kids at 41 and almost-43, but... since they are the only two I had, I don't know any different.  So far, so good.  :)

 

(Maybe it's because I got a lot of sleep all those years I didn't have kids? :) )
 

 

Edited May 8, 2016 by reefgazer

[LucyStoner]

The chances of a successful pregnancy for a first time mom at 47 are slim. It could be that she either doesn't want to deal with the heartache of TTC unsuccessfully or miscarriage or that she has fertility concerns that she'd rather keep quiet. That is her perogative and not something she owes people she doesn't even know a detailed explanation of.

 

While pregnancy can occur past 45, it is more common with women who have already had children. First time moms in their late 40s are really beating the odds if they conceive and carry to term. I've only ever known 2 women who did it and it required extensive fertility care in both cases. Being 47 is for most women, itself a fertility problem.

 

Another thouyht. As an actress who doesn't look her age and still plays the the love interest parts/hot sexy characters in an industry that treats older women horribly, it's not in her marketing interests to discuss or admit to diminishing fertility. It's a reminder of her age that she may not be able to afford professionally.

[heartlikealion]

Just because someone is described as lucky doesn't mean others around them aren't lucky, too. I think it's just an attempt to say, "that's wonderful they got adopted into a loving family." Someone took the time to seek out the child(ren) and these children may have otherwise not known "family" in the same sense. There may have been a lot of red tape, etc. Not to say this can't happen in all families, but it may be perceived like, "wow, you went out of your way for these kids." /shrug

[DawnM]

She has a job that doesn't mesh well with pregnancy, because her appearance matters.  On the other hand, many Hollywood stars seem to do a great job of meshing parenting and acting.  Because of the stop and start nature of most TV sets, it's easy to have a nanny care for the baby on set, and visit with mom or dad during breaks.  

 

 

And many, many Hollywood types use a surrogate.  Now, some are due to infertility, and some are due to gay couples, but there are some who choose it for various reasons.   Susan Saranden comes to mind.  Her baby was born around age 50 through a surrogate.

 

Lucy Liu doesn't appear to be in a steady relationship.  Her first baby was born before her current boyfriend.  

I think that sometimes women get to a certain age and really want a child, relationship or not.  

 

She certainly has the means to care for a child, so that isn't an issue.  

 

And then we get into the entire question of how to raise a child and what is best, the only, or the right way.  

 

The mommy wars don't start at birth anymore.   

[Guest]

Both of Jimmy Fallon and his wife's kids were born via surrogate. He thanked his surrogate on air, with tears in his eyes.

 

No one said a word, prefaced with sorry-not-sorry, or not.

 

I have major qualms about surrogacy as well, mostly revolving around the necessarily capitalistic nature of the arrangement in a culture that doesn't really have mechanisms to otherwise appreciate the people who do this for other people. But, on the other hand....not my monkeys, not my circus.

 

And it's definitely not a good reason for me to exercise my judgey muscle on other women. There are so many truly awful human beans to work that out on.

[marbel]

I don't see this conversation as part of mommy wars.  I think it's good to ponder and discuss these sorts of issues.  I think it's OK for people to form opinions.  Isn't that part of what we want our kids to learn to do as we guide their educations?   I'm not sure the world is going to be better when we get to the point that pretty much anything everyone does is OK and no one can open their mouth and say "I'm not sure about this."  No one is condemning this woman, that I can see (I mean here on this board; I haven't read anything about this elsewhere).

 

Back in the days that the wealthy had wetnurses and governesses and parents saw their children very little - that was also during the time women of the upper classes pretty much had to get married and have children.   Not sure men always had choices either - the family line had to be carried on, right?  Wonder how many people married and had kids despite not wanting any of that?  I guess if I had kids but did not want them, I'd hire as much childcare as I could*.  I'm just not sure it's comparable to the situation being discussed.

 

I'm just thinking here, not making any pronouncements about "the way things ought to be done."  If that makes me a mommy warrior... then I don't know how we (general we in the world) can talk about anything, kwim? 

 

*Which is not the same as saying that anyone who hires childcare does not want their children. 

[LucyStoner]

Both of Jimmy Fallon and his wife's kids were born via surrogate. He thanked his surrogate on air, with tears in his eyes.

 

No one said a word, prefaced with sorry-not-sorry, or not.

 

I have major qualms about surrogacy as well, mostly revolving around the necessarily capitalistic nature of the arrangement in a culture that doesn't really have mechanisms to otherwise appreciate the people who do this for other people. But, on the other hand....not my monkeys, not my circus.

 

And it's definitely not a good reason for me to exercise my judgey muscle on other women. There are so many truly awful human beans to work that out on.

I'm with you. Surrogacy and ART is something I am not super comfortable with. Despite our fertility issues, I won't consider advanced fertility procedures. But I have two sons and sort of feel like "who knows what I would be willing to try if I didn't have my sons?" People just have to be trusted to make their own decisions. Edited May 8, 2016 by LucyStoner