Can you intellectually know something, but not *feel* it?

[38carrots]

How do thoughts / intellect work together with emotions? Is it paradoxical, that one can *know* that one is loved, and yet knot *feel* it, for example? What about feeling something, but not knowing something?

 

We had an interesting conversation tonight. DH is notorious for not "getting" feelings. One of the things that I told him was that I knew he loved me, but I didn't feel it, and then we spent some time analyzing this idea. :smilielol5: It was completely incomprehensible to him. And when I tried to put my feelings aside, I can see his point of view. If I know, with certainty, that he loves me, why wouldn't I feel it? This sounds absurd. Now he went to bed, and I'm still up, thinking (and feeling!)

 

What does it mean to *feel* loved? Why is it different from just knowing that one is loved? Are those entirely separate? Why is it enough for some people to know, and some people need to feel it?

 

ETA: more questions in #18

Edited January 13, 2016 by 38carrots

[Guest]

Sure! To be honest I struggle with that sometimes in both my marriage and faith. My emotions can go all over the place so I just come back to the fundamental principles and facts I know to be true and let the rest spin in the breeze while I work through my thoughts. Especially in marriage sometimes I'm just not 'there' in my heart in tenderness or affection but I know, intellectually, that there is no place I'd rather be than with him. Eventually my heart comes back around but some days I just feel so blah.

[gardenmom5]

How do thoughts / intellect work together with emotions? Is it paradoxical, that one can *know* that one is loved, and yet knot *feel* it, for example? What about feeling something, but not knowing something?

 

We had an interesting conversation tonight. DH is notorious for not "getting" feelings. One of the things that I told him was that I knew he loved me, but I didn't feel it, and then we spent some time analyzing this idea. :smilielol5: It was completely incomprehensible to him. And when I tried to put my feelings aside, I can see his point of view. If I know, with certainty, that he loves me, why wouldn't I feel it? This sounds absurd. Now he went to bed, and I'm still up, thinking (and feeling!)

 

What does it mean to *feel* loved? Why is it different from just knowing that one is loved? Are those entirely separate? Why is it enough for some people to know, and some people need to feel it?

 

absolutely possible.  I'm too fuzzy - I've been up with a sick child.  at least he does't need a bucket by his bed.

 

[abba12]

Definitely. As someone with PTSD I experience it constantly on one issue or another. Hoping someone else might be able to offer a better explanation as to how it works since mine is based on mental illness induced situations

[creekland]

When talking about relationships, that's what Love Languages are all about.  We feel loved when someone else "speaks" our language.  We don't when they don't even if we can rationally know it.

 

Then the problem comes that when one doesn't feel loved for long enough, the brain will convince them they aren't loved...

 

Originally the Five Love Languages are a (Christian author) book, but I'm sure one can likely find out quite a bit about them online now.

 

I know our marriage improved significantly after hubby and I studied them in a small group and each of us learned to speak the other's language (mine is time - his is verbal/touch).  We hadn't been married for too many years.  One older (retired) couple in our group made the comment, "I wish we had known about this long ago" rather wistfully.  I felt sorry for them.

 

There are other things one can know, but not feel too.  Our rational brain and emotional brain are two different areas.

[Onceuponatime]

This is hard. I think there are lots of factors, hormones and life experiences are big ones. I'm more of an analyzer, but I get it.

 

The love languages thing is okay, but can still fall short. When my dh discovered that concept, he went overboard and used it as a manual for life. He became discouraged and felt unloved when people didn't respond enthusiastically.

 

For example, my love language is acts of service. That is my preferred way to love other people and I love it if someone is considerate enough to think of ways in which they can be of help to me. This was never dh's strong point. So, he decided he was going to do all kinds of stuff for me, but not the stuff I really needed or wanted done. Then he expected to be praised and patted on the back, which I found irritating.

 

It was easier when we had just learned to accept each other the way we were. My personal thought is that emotions are deceptive and not a true measure of reality.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Onceuponatime

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

It is possible that you are limiting yourself with using only the word "love" to describe a feeling.  

 

You know you are loved- that your DH is committed to you, supports you, and cares for you.  But maybe what you are not FEELING is appreciated, noticed, flirted with, admired, respected, remembered... or any combination of those things and others.  If you can put a more precise word on what you are NOT feeling, maybe that would help.  Love is very vague.  

[BlsdMama]

How do thoughts / intellect work together with emotions? Is it paradoxical, that one can *know* that one is loved, and yet knot *feel* it, for example? What about feeling something, but not knowing something?

 

We had an interesting conversation tonight. DH is notorious for not "getting" feelings. One of the things that I told him was that I knew he loved me, but I didn't feel it, and then we spent some time analyzing this idea. :smilielol5: It was completely incomprehensible to him. And when I tried to put my feelings aside, I can see his point of view. If I know, with certainty, that he loves me, why wouldn't I feel it? This sounds absurd. Now he went to bed, and I'm still up, thinking (and feeling!)

 

What does it mean to *feel* loved? Why is it different from just knowing that one is loved? Are those entirely separate? Why is it enough for some people to know, and some people need to feel it?

 

 

Absolutely.

 

Feelings *do* lie to us.  They can  tell us something is wise when it is not, or not hurtful when it is.  I've actually told my children, "We determine our actions based on right and wrong.  We don't let FEELINGS determine our ACTIONS."

 

Lots of people FEEL it's effective to scream at their kids. It's not.  I could go on and on with an awful lot of examples.

[Chris in VA]

Maybe a little rabbit trail, but I think some people have this problem with their faith, too.

 

Dd's Sunday school class was going thru the Nicene Creed, and the teacher asked what they thought about it, and if they believed it all. Some said yes, some no, but all had things to share. So I told dd that you can look at I Believe as a statement that says, "I intellectually assent to these things," or you can look at I Believe as a statement that says, "I put my trust in."

 

I think love is the same way. Instead of making it about feelings or about intellect solely, maybe thinking of it as "I put my trust in" could be another way.

 

(I hope that's clear--I'm a little under the weather today and not writing very clearly.)

[creekland]

For example, my love language is acts of service. That is my preferred way to love other people and I love it if someone is considerate enough to think of ways in which they can be of help to me. This was never dh's strong point. So, he decided he was going to do all kinds of stuff for me, but not the stuff I really needed or wanted done. Then he expected to be praised and patted on the back, which I found irritating.

 

FWIW, hubby and I had to teach each other our specific dialects - spelling out what we liked and didn't in plain English.  Sometimes we still do, but we're both pretty fluent now (after years of practice).  The book only goes so far if one just looks at the overall part of it.  That's probably a good point to make, 'cause I can definitely see it going badly like in your example.

 

Figuring out our kids' love languages has helped us develop very close relationships with them too.

[38carrots]

Absolutely.

 

Feelings *do* lie to us.  They can  tell us something is wise when it is not, or not hurtful when it is.  I've actually told my children, "We determine our actions based on right and wrong.  We don't let FEELINGS determine our ACTIONS."

 

Lots of people FEEL it's effective to scream at their kids. It's not.  I could go on and on with an awful lot of examples.

 

This is what I struggle with. I do think that feelings can and should determine our actions. But when I start thinking more about it, I realize that I don't believe feelings such as anger or hatred should (for me), as it doesn't, again, *feel* right. But happiness and maybe sadness? Yes.

 

However, I never met a person who felt it it was good to scream at their kids or felt it was good to leave babies CIO. On the contrary, those people intellectualize their actions. How many moms I heard say, "It didn't feel right to me, but I HAD to put my baby on a schedule."

 

[heartlikealion]

I bet it's like if you know you need to eat or drink, but have no appetite (like if you are sick). Logically you know you're dehydrated, but you don't feel thirsty. That's maybe the analogy I'd go with.

[Janie Grace]

I think that childhood pain can block us from feeling loved even if we are being well loved in our "love language." If you what you learn when you are little is that you are unworthy of love/attention/nurture, it is hard to feel it even when it is given later on. 

[fairfarmhand]

This is what I struggle with. I do think that feelings can and should determine our actions. But when I start thinking more about it, I realize that I don't believe feelings such as anger or hatred should (for me), as it doesn't, again, *feel* right. But happiness and maybe sadness? Yes.

 

However, I never met a person who felt it it was good to scream at their kids or felt it was good to leave babies CIO. On the contrary, those people intellectualize their actions. How many moms I heard say, "It didn't feel right to me, but I HAD to put my baby on a schedule."

 

 

However, some things that "Feel good" in the moment are really bad ideas.

 

Teen "love" feelings in the moment can lead to some bad places. The feeling that you need to be accepted by a group feels good in the moment but you can feel pretty foolish later if you do something dumb to get that feeling. I don't think happiness or sadness needs to be a gauge for our actions. I've had friends lose children and for a long time felt that life should end right there. But they have other kids. Their feelings can't determine the rest of their lives.

 

WRT to the OP's question:

 

I can know I am a good mom, but be in the throes of something awful with one of my kids, and not Feel like a good mom.

 

I can know that I am worthy, but feel worthless.

 

I can know that I am a good wife, but after I've done something unkind, I can feel like a terrible one.

 

I can know my kids love me, but after I've laid down the law, I don't feel loved. Same with my dh when we've gone through a rough patch.

 

As someone who struggles constantly with insecurity and depression, I have learned to analyze my feelings on a regular basis. Feelings are not necessarily truth.

 

My dh is a very secure person. He doesn't understand my self doubts and depression either.

[38carrots]

I bet it's like if you know you need to eat or drink, but have no appetite (like if you are sick). Logically you know you're dehydrated, but you don't feel thirsty. That's maybe the analogy I'd go with.

 

That's a good one! Especially for DH as he never drinks, and always says "Oh, I'm so dehydrated! I didn't drink for the entire day?"

 

 

:smilielol5:

[RoughCollie]

It is possible that you are limiting yourself with using only the word "love" to describe a feeling.  

 

You know you are loved- that your DH is committed to you, supports you, and cares for you.  But maybe what you are not FEELING is appreciated, noticed, flirted with, admired, respected, remembered... or any combination of those things and others.  If you can put a more precise word on what you are NOT feeling, maybe that would help.  Love is very vague.  

 

I think this is a great point.  Being told you are loved, but being treated like a fungible object, leads to not feeling the love. Actions speak louder than words.

 

The people I feel loved by are people who love me -- me, as an individual -- not me as whatever role I play in their lives, and which can be filled by hired help.

[Onceuponatime]

I think this is a great point. Being told you are loved, but being treated like a fungible object, leads to not feeling the love. Actions speak louder than words.

 

The people I feel loved by are people who love me -- me, as an individual -- not me as whatever role I play in their lives, and which can be filled by hired help.

I love this.

[38carrots]

So is there any validity to feelings? What I've been teaching DD since she was little (and very emotional) is that "That's okay to feel this way, but it is NOT okay to act this way."

 

In my example, DH would say something that "hurts my feelings." I try to always try (but not always succeed) to frame it that it was my responsibility that my feelings got hurt. It is not "YOU hurt my feelings." But yep, it is a fact. An example would be I've accomplished something I worked on really hard (let's say a painting) and I show it to him excitedly, and he'd give it half a look and go back to what he was doing.

 

So logically I do know that DH does not like my paintings. Totally not his style. But each time when I pour my heart and soul and skill (and some talent) into a painting, I wonder if this time it will be different and he will actually like it. Emotionally? Still want to show him. Still feel hurt when it is not even "Those are nice purples in the sky." (lol)

 

So are my feelings valid? He thinks they are not, because I should know better than to show him my paintings, so intellectually I'm setting myself up for his reaction, and since I know it all, why would I feel hurt?

 

(I'm just talking to myself ha-ha, trying to figure it out. I really love the Hive's honest opinions, because The Hive helps me figure things out.)

 

So why do I need feelings? They are a big part of my life, but I'd be much better off just responding logically to things, right? lol

 

I think  my feelings make me who I am. A loving, empathetic, caring, artistic, compassionate, kind. Emotional wreck.

 

When I tell DH that I feel hurt by his words, all I really want to hear is that he didn't mean to and that he is sorry. For him this means that I'm emotionally manipulative because I want him to say something that he believes is not true. So here is the conundrum. I know (feel?) that if he said those words, they would "make me feel better." In my emotional reality, these words would be true *to myself* because when I see someone hurt I FEEL it in me that I'm sorry, I didn't meant to, and I driven to offer empathy and hugs. There's a hole in me, if I don't extend empathy. Those words are not true for DH, because he believes emotions are primitive, are not true, are not valid, and he has no feelings of guilt or regret when I'm upset because *HE* didn't do it. It is all my own doings.

 

I can see his point, but I can't live with myself being like this. I don't feel overwhelming guilty if I accidentally hurt someone's feelings, and maybe it is not even guilt, but my first *Feeling* is to reach out, to tell or show that it was an accident. That I didn't mean to. That I wish things were different. So to me, this would mean saying "sorry" because it *feels* right. Not because I feel guilty, not because I'm inferior, not because it was my fault, legally defined.

 

Saying "sorry" never feels right to DH, because intellectually he didn't do anything wrong.

 

So I'm feeling sad / upset / emotional that he didn't say one kind word about my painting again. He thinks that I'm being ungrateful and ignorant because *of course* he is supportive. He paid for all my painting supplies. He paid for my seminars.

 

So??

 

 

 

 

[goldberry]

When DH and I went through counseling MANY years ago, I remember distinctly the counselor saying, "All feelings are real, but they are not all true."

 

That was like a smack in the head to me.  I used to go both directions.  Either believing automatically what I felt was true, even if it wasn't.  But also the other way, I don't like this feeling, or I know it's not true, so I will just squash it.  The feeling is still real and needs to be dealt with. Sometimes that just means simply acknowledging, "I feel this way right now, because we had a rough spot, but I know that DH really loves me." and move on.  Sometimes it means you need to take more action to find out why you keep feeling that way.  

[MBM]

How do thoughts / intellect work together with emotions? Is it paradoxical, that one can *know* that one is loved, and yet knot *feel* it, for example? What about feeling something, but not knowing something?

 

We had an interesting conversation tonight. DH is notorious for not "getting" feelings. One of the things that I told him was that I knew he loved me, but I didn't feel it, and then we spent some time analyzing this idea. :smilielol5: It was completely incomprehensible to him. And when I tried to put my feelings aside, I can see his point of view. If I know, with certainty, that he loves me, why wouldn't I feel it? This sounds absurd. Now he went to bed, and I'm still up, thinking (and feeling!)

 

What does it mean to *feel* loved? Why is it different from just knowing that one is loved? Are those entirely separate? Why is it enough for some people to know, and some people need to feel it?

 

Yes, you can absolutely cognitively know something but not feel it.

 

There are three areas of the brain that register empathy. Some people only register this in one area, the area that explains, not the areas that feel. Dan Goleman's book Focus explains this in more detail.

 

If a person cannot *tune in* emotionally to others, that suggests that something is amiss with their mirror neurons and areas of their brain that work with those neurons. If these parts are functioning well, two strangers can sit silently in a room and accurately know what each other is feeling without speaking a word. That is how powerful the whole process is.

 

Trauma, which can include seemingly innocuous events, can damage the ability to tune in. An example of this is a child who grows up feeling that his opinions and feelings don't matter or are dismissed, who doesn't have his emotions mirrored back (acknowledged and described), or who is not taken into account. Trauma is common in the US. Treatment involves reactivating the mirror neurons, learning how to mirror others, and learning how to not be hijacked by other people's negative emotions. The damage often occurs in areas that don't respond well to talk therapy.

 

People can learn to *turn off* or *numb* their ability to feel and process difficult emotions (depersonalize), often when they feel trapped. The problem with doing so is that it tends to shut off about six key areas of the brain (what is known so far) even while they are relaxed and not experiencing much stress. Brain imaging scans show this. People who depersonalize have muted feelings overall. Worse, despite being able to numb their feelings, their bodies can react negatively all throughout life unless the trauma is properly treated.

 

The reason it's important to know about mirroring emotions is because people who learn to recognize and feel their emotions well have the most agency, the ability to control one's life. Emotions are merely road signs we read that help guide us as we live our lives, allowing us to adapt or make changes. Emotions and physical health are also intertwined which is why as the number of untreated traumatic events increases, so do many other problems: drug and alcohol use, early pregnancy, heart disease, autoimmune disease and early death.

 

If you want to learn more about trauma and its effects, Bessel van der Kolk's book The Body Keeps the Score is top notch. I'm reading it for a second time now.

[MBM]

I think that childhood pain can block us from feeling loved even if we are being well loved in our "love language." If you what you learn when you are little is that you are unworthy of love/attention/nurture, it is hard to feel it even when it is given later on. 

 

Yes. Absolutely. The message the child gets is that she is unworthy which permeates their lives down to their cells and is not easily undone without proper treatment.

[Onceuponatime]

Hmm. Is your dh *never* wrong about anything? That would be unusual. My guess is that emotions make him uncomfortable and he doesn't want to deal with them. That itself is a kind of emotion.

 

Emotions are primitive. We are primitive people. Even husbands have functioning primitive brains, wether they want to admit it or not. Otherwise, we might not have children. 😊

 

Does he agree that he should treat others the way *they* want to be treated, or does he think he should treat all people the way *he* wants to be treated. There is a big difference. Even my emotional dh has trouble understanding this. In, fact I think it's pretty common for most people.

[38carrots]

Yes, you can absolutely cognitively know something but not feel it.

 

There are three areas of the brain that register empathy. Some people only register this in one area, the area that explains, not the areas that feel. Dan Goleman's book Focus explains this in more detail.

 

If a person cannot *tune in* emotionally to others, that suggests that something is amiss with their mirror neurons and areas of their brain that work with those neurons. If these parts are functioning well, two strangers can sit silently in a room and accurately know what each other is feeling without speaking a word. That is how powerful the whole process is.

 

Trauma, which can include seemingly innocuous events, can damage the ability to tune in. An example of this is a child who grows up feeling that his opinions and feelings don't matter or are dismissed, who doesn't have his emotions mirrored back (acknowledged and described), or who is not taken into account. Trauma is common in the US. Treatment involves reactivating the mirror neurons, learning how to mirror others, and learning how to not be hijacked by other people's negative emotions. The damage often occurs in areas that don't respond well to talk therapy.

 

People can learn to *turn off* or *numb* their ability to feel and process difficult emotions (depersonalize), often when they feel trapped. The problem with doing so is that it tends to shut off about six key areas of the brain (what is known so far) even while they are relaxed and not experiencing much stress. Brain imaging scans show this. People who depersonalize have muted feelings overall. Worse, despite being able to numb their feelings, their bodies can react negatively all throughout life unless the trauma is properly treated.

 

The reason it's important to know about mirroring emotions is because people who learn to recognize and feel their emotions well have the most agency, the ability to control one's life. Emotions are merely road signs we read that help guide us as we live our lives, allowing us to adapt or make changes. Emotions and physical health are also intertwined which is why as the number of untreated traumatic events increases, so do many other problems: drug and alcohol use, early pregnancy, heart disease, autoimmune disease and early death.

 

If you want to learn more about trauma and its effects, Bessel van der Kolk's book The Body Keeps the Score is top notch. I'm reading it for a second time now.

This is very interesting. I just ordered "Focus," looked really good. Can't wait to read it.

 

If what most you are talking about here (thanks for sharing!) from Focus or from The Body Keeps the Score? Or some other book?

 

Thanks.

 

 

[sassenach]

So is there any validity to feelings? What I've been teaching DD since she was little (and very emotional) is that "That's okay to feel this way, but it is NOT okay to act this way."

 

In my example, DH would say something that "hurts my feelings." I try to always try (but not always succeed) to frame it that it was my responsibility that my feelings got hurt. It is not "YOU hurt my feelings." But yep, it is a fact. An example would be I've accomplished something I worked on really hard (let's say a painting) and I show it to him excitedly, and he'd give it half a look and go back to what he was doing.

 

So logically I do know that DH does not like my paintings. Totally not his style. But each time when I pour my heart and soul and skill (and some talent) into a painting, I wonder if this time it will be different and he will actually like it. Emotionally? Still want to show him. Still feel hurt when it is not even "Those are nice purples in the sky." (lol)

 

So are my feelings valid? He thinks they are not, because I should know better than to show him my paintings, so intellectually I'm setting myself up for his reaction, and since I know it all, why would I feel hurt?

 

(I'm just talking to myself ha-ha, trying to figure it out. I really love the Hive's honest opinions, because The Hive helps me figure things out.)

 

So why do I need feelings? They are a big part of my life, but I'd be much better off just responding logically to things, right? lol

 

I think my feelings make me who I am. A loving, empathetic, caring, artistic, compassionate, kind. Emotional wreck.

 

When I tell DH that I feel hurt by his words, all I really want to hear is that he didn't mean to and that he is sorry. For him this means that I'm emotionally manipulative because I want him to say something that he believes is not true. So here is the conundrum. I know (feel?) that if he said those words, they would "make me feel better." In my emotional reality, these words would be true *to myself* because when I see someone hurt I FEEL it in me that I'm sorry, I didn't meant to, and I driven to offer empathy and hugs. There's a hole in me, if I don't extend empathy. Those words are not true for DH, because he believes emotions are primitive, are not true, are not valid, and he has no feelings of guilt or regret when I'm upset because *HE* didn't do it. It is all my own doings.

 

I can see his point, but I can't live with myself being like this. I don't feel overwhelming guilty if I accidentally hurt someone's feelings, and maybe it is not even guilt, but my first *Feeling* is to reach out, to tell or show that it was an accident. That I didn't mean to. That I wish things were different. So to me, this would mean saying "sorry" because it *feels* right. Not because I feel guilty, not because I'm inferior, not because it was my fault, legally defined.

 

Saying "sorry" never feels right to DH, because intellectually he didn't do anything wrong.

 

So I'm feeling sad / upset / emotional that he didn't say one kind word about my painting again. He thinks that I'm being ungrateful and ignorant because *of course* he is supportive. He paid for all my painting supplies. He paid for my seminars.

 

So??

I can really see both sides of this problem, and I do sympathize with your desires, but I think you are creating conflict where none should exist. One of the problems with F types (of which I am one- married to a T no less) is that we can create dynamics where we set up expectations that put others in the wrong when they are not actually doing anything wrong. Would it be nice and affirming if your dh audibly admired your painting? Yes. However, he truly isn't wrong for not meeting that expectation. Furthermore, I suspect that this isn't the only area of your life where you have put on expectations that he will give you certain reactions or affirmations. It can be absolutely exhausting for a spouse to have to predict what response will make the other spouse happy. My experience (especially as dh and I have counseled couples in our church) is that the T spouse grows cold to trying to meet any one of those expectations, because there is always a new unspoken one behind it.

 

Hear me on this, marriage is a partnership, so I don't believe that the T spouse is exempt from putting in effort and loving the F spouse well, including emotional needs, but since I'm directing this towards you, I'm putting the emphasis on the downfalls of F types. Also, I will say that Fs are often the source of the conflict, so a lot of the root work has to happen with them.

 

This is an area where marriage counseling could REALLY help. Also, I second Love Languages.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Sassenach

[MBM]

Most of it is from The Body Keeps the Score but both books are well worth reading.

[38carrots]

Hmm. Is your dh *never* wrong about anything? That would be unusual. My guess is that emotions make him uncomfortable and he doesn't want to deal with them. That itself is a kind of emotion.

 

Emotions are primitive. We are primitive people. Even husbands have functioning primitive brains, wether they want to admit it or not. Otherwise, we might not have children. 😊

 

Does he agree that he should treat others the way *they* want to be treated, or does he think he should treat all people the way *he* wants to be treated. There is a big difference. Even my emotional dh has trouble understanding this. In, fact I think it's pretty common for most people.

 

He believes emotions are inferior, that they only get one into trouble, and therefore are to be avoided. He rarely thinks that he is wrong.

 

He wants to treat others the way he wants to be treated, because that's the right away. The emotions way is the wrong way and shouldn't be encouraged.

 

[fairfarmhand]

I think in terms of what that person did.

 

"you spoke unkindly." "That was inconsiderate." "That was rude."

 

It is not your fault that someone "hurt your feelings" if they were behaving badly. Of course, some days we're all oversensitive, and that's why we need to analyze feelings instead of just accepting them as is. "I'm hurt. Why am I hurt? Is this valid? Was this person intentionally hurtful? Just thoughtless?" I give people a little more mercy if they're just thoughtless vs. Intentionally hurtful.

 

WRT to your paintings, I'd accept that my dh was never going to love them like I would. I have a similar thing. Someone I care deeply for and admire doesn't care for my writing style. It does hurt because I value this person's feelings. I'd love for this person to genuinely appreciate the writing that I do, but it's not that person. So I've stopped asking. I depend on others outside the house to affirm that part of who I am.  this person who loves me  is glad I write because it means something to me. THey provide what I need to do it, because I LOVE IT.

 

Kind of like if one of your kdis got into something....I don't know...horse judging, math contests, soapmaking...whatever...and they did it because they loved it. You may not understand their passion. You may feel that their soap is exactly like 4000 other bars of soap, that horse moved identically to another, whatever...but you support them because it;s important to them. Your husband doesn't express his support verbally. But he sees support as more than just words of affirmation. He supports your art because he loves you. And what you do is NOT who you are. Your art may be an expression of your personality, but to your dh it's NOT YOU! I think as artists (I'm throwing myself in there because I also draw, and words are my art) It's really easy to see the creative outlet as an expression or extension of ourselves, and that's why we take it personally when someone else doesn't appreciate it.

 

But to your dh, you're more than a painting. To my loved ones, I'm more than words on a page. And that;s what I have to keep in mind. If someone chopped off our fingers and I could never write and you could never paint, they'd still love us. That's important.

 

 

Edited January 13, 2016 by fairfarmhand

[Guest]

Well your paintings are about you not him. He wants, sounds like, to make it about him and then make you second guess everything you feel so that it stays about him.

 

This makes it sound like I am way down on your dh but I'm not. This is a thing ppl get in the habit of doing. Making things about themselves.

[38carrots]

I can really see both sides of this problem, and I do sympathize with your desires, but I think you are creating conflict where none should exist. One of the problems with F types (of which I am one- married to a T no less) is that we can create dynamics where we set up expectations that put others in the wrong when they are not actually doing anything wrong. Would it be nice and affirming if your dh audibly admired your painting? Yes. However, he truly isn't wrong for not meeting that expectation. Furthermore, I suspect that this isn't the only area of your life where you have put on expectations that he will give you certain reactions or affirmations. It can be absolutely exhausting for a spouse to have to predict what response will make the other spouse happy. My experience (especially as dh and I have counseled couples in our church) is that the T spouse grows cold to trying to meet any one of those expectations, because there is always a new unspoken one behind it.

 

Here me on this, marriage is a partnership, so I don't believe that the T spouse is exempt from putting in effort and loving the F spouse well, including emotional needs, but since I'm directing this towards you, I'm putting the emphasis on the downfalls of F types. Also, I will say that Fs are often the source of the conflict, so a lot of the root work has to happen with them.

 

See, I logically do get it.

 

He is not wrong, because he is his own person.

 

Would I be able to ignore my loved one's achievements? I can't. It would feel like torture to me.

 

I do know that he views communicating with me as "expectations" and "manipulations" and he stoically and consciously won't give in. And I don't want him to be pressured into not being true to himself. I don't.

 

I don't set out with thinking, Oh, I'm going to show him my art, and I'm expecting him to praise it. But I guess there is an implicit expectation, no, not of praise, but of a connection? Because this is how I roll. I share because of needing to connect.

 

So then this leads me towards not sharing. Because logically I know I shouldn't (he won't connect). And emotionally I am growing out of the idea of insanity, where you do the same thing over and over expecting a different result. I haven't shared much in a while. When I don't share, I don't feel connected. When I don't feel connected, I don't feel we have a relationship, because a relationship for me is about emotional connection.

 

I can't intellectualize this all I want, but I still don't see how to go around it.

 

My teen DD started telling me that she doesn't feel like sharing with DH anymore because in her opinion he underreacts to her achievements. I can talk to her until I'm blue in my face that DD is probably wired differently, that daddy doesn't feel emotions the way we do, that daddy is a thinker, that daddy loves her...And we do talk about this a lot. But she is like me. She doesn't feel comfortable sharing with him because at the end she ends up *feeling* down. Just like I do.

 

I want her to be better than me. No one talked to me when I was a kid and explained those things. We talk and talk and talk about knowing vs feeling, and that daddy supports her and loves her, but no, daddy won't support her with words, because he can't.

 

But part of me is asking, is this for real? At first I was telling her to "prep" Dad. He is might not know all the details of why some things are important to her, so he can't know what's important to her and what not. If she were to just tell him, "hey, got graded in martial arts today" he might not know that it was a big deal. So DD would tell him, "Dad, so you know how I find martial arts really hard? And I'm terrified of gradings? I got graded today and I got my next stripe."

 

And it turns out she ends up feeling more hurt because she shared something really personal with him, and still got "okay, I guess" from him.

 

And when I teased it out of him later, his reply was that well, it was a stripe, not a full belt, so not important. Didn't she tell you she was terrified and it WAS a HUGE deal for her? "What to be terrified of? They only grade when you are ready anyway. She KNEW she was ready. Not a big deal."

 

So?

[38carrots]

I think in terms of what that person did.

 

"you spoke unkindly." "That was inconsiderate." "That was rude."

 

It is not your fault that someone "hurt your feelings" if they were behaving badly. Of course, some days we're all oversensitive, and that's why we need to analyze feelings instead of just accepting them as is. "I'm hurt. Why am I hurt? Is this valid? Was this person intentionally hurtful? Just thoughtless?" I give people a little more mercy if they're just thoughtless vs. Intentionally hurtful.

 

WRT to your paintings, I'd accept that my dh was never going to love them like I would. I have a similar thing. My dh HATES the way that I write. It does hurt because I value his feelings. I'd love for him to genuinely appreciate the writing that I do, but it's not him. So I've stopped asking. I depend on others outside the house to affirm that part of who I am.  For my dh, he's glad I write because it means something to me. He provides what I need to do it, because I LOVE IT.

 

Kind of like if one of your kdis got into something....I don't know...horse judging, math contests, soapmaking...whatever...and they did it because they loved it. You may not understand their passion. You may feel that their soap is exactly like 4000 other bars of soap, that horse moved identically to another, whatever...but you support them because it;s important to them. Your husband doesn't express his support verbally. But he sees support as more than just words of affirmation. He supports your art because he loves you. And what you do is NOT who you are. Your art may be an expression of your personality, but to your dh it's NOT YOU! I think as artists (I'm throwing myself in there because I also draw, and words are my art) It's really easy to see the creative outlet as an expression or extension of ourselves, and that's why we take it personally when someone else doesn't appreciate it.

 

But to your dh, you're more than a painting. To my dh, I'm more than words on a page. And that;s what I have to keep in mind. If someone chopped off our fingers and I could never write and you could never paint, they'd still love us. That's important.

 

If this person is not intentionally hurtful, because he doesn't believe it should be hurtful, but he does know that in some weird, emotional, inferior to him way, you will end up feeling hurt? Is it still unintentional?

 

You got it right, it hurts when it comes to art, because I do see it as part of me.

 

I do need to remember that his support is financial support, and this is what is most important to him. I know he is feeling shaken in his beliefs, because he heard two of our kids, on different occassionas, say something like "Mom makes this family work, Mom holds it all together."

 

He recently stated that it is his belief that *he* is the one who holds this family together by providing income. And of course he does, it is true.

 

Whenever one of the kids (especially the oldest two) are upset that Dad doesn't pay attention to them, I remind him that he provides for everything and this is how he shows his love. Again, intellectually, I do get it. Emotionally? "Spend 10 minutes talking to your kid when they ask for it, for pete's sake!"

 

Again, I don't seem to be able to reconcile my thoughts and my feelings.

 

 

[fairfarmhand]

If this person is not intentionally hurtful, because he doesn't believe it should be hurtful, but he does know that in some weird, emotional, inferior to him way, you will end up feeling hurt? Is it still unintentional?

 

You got it right, it hurts when it comes to art, because I do see it as part of me.

 

I do need to remember that his support is financial support, and this is what is most important to him. I know he is feeling shaken in his beliefs, because he heard two of our kids, on different occassionas, say something like "Mom makes this family work, Mom holds it all together."

 

He recently stated that it is his belief that *he* is the one who holds this family together by providing income. And of course he does, it is true.

 

Whenever one of the kids (especially the oldest two) are upset that Dad doesn't pay attention to them, I remind him that he provides for everything and this is how he shows his love. Again, intellectually, I do get it. Emotionally? "Spend 10 minutes talking to your kid when they ask for it, for pete's sake!"

 

Again, I don't seem to be able to reconcile my thoughts and my feelings.

 

Are you married to a Vulcan? Kidding. :) Maybe he needs to watch some old star trek shows to see that there is a place for logic and a place for emotions.

 

Family is more than just about money. If it were only money, then he could live on a deserted island, send money and nothing would change. I venture to say that he feels more than he thinks he does. It's not ONLY about $$$. If it were, he'd just send a check and he's feeling shaken because he's learned that his way of processing life is not working out the way he thinks it should. He, deep inside, craves his kids admiration, respect and love, and simply handing out cash isn't getting it.

 

Ask him what would happen if you and the kids just disappeared. Killed in an accident or something. Would he be sad? Would those feelings be valid? Or are they irrelevant because they are feelings?

 

I think there's more feelings happening for him that he's acknowledging and he doesn't even know it.

 

[Liz CA]

James Dobson (I think) wrote a book about this very subject titled "Emotions - Can you trust them?"

He points out that emotions come and go and if we solely rely on emotions we are being blown around in all directions but there needs to be a balance between intellect and emotions. I am sure Dobson explains it much better than I can.

 

Found it:  http://www.amazon.com/Emotions-Best-Selling-Understanding-Managing-Self-Awareness/dp/0800724879

Edited January 13, 2016 by Liz CA

[MFG]

I think that the logical thing to do is to stop expecting your Dh to respond in emotionally healthy ways.

And he should thank his lucky stars that he has you, because many would have kicked him to the curb long ago.

[creekland]

I suspect if I were married to your hubby the two of us would have had it out long ago - esp regarding the kids.  Whether we were still married would depend upon his actions afterward.

 

That said, I wouldn't expect him to like my paintings.  They genuinely might not be his style and I wouldn't want him to lie to me or to try to secondguess what I want him to say or do.  Honesty is better than faking things.

 

My hubby shows me jokes he finds on FB at times.  To me, not all of them are funny.  When I wonder what I'm supposed to like about one, I'll ask and he'll tell me... ;)  We may or may not joke about that, but neither of us get upset just because we don't share feelings about something.

[albeto.]

So why do I need feelings? They are a big part of my life, but I'd be much better off just responding logically to things, right? lol

 

Looks like you've got a lot packed into your OP, lol! In answer to your OP, can you know something but not *feel* it, yes. I think this is demonstrably true. But then again, so is the opposite. We can *feel* something, but be demonstrably wrong, and never see it, admit it, or even care. That happens all the time, and often, our feelings over compensate for knowledge. There's a reason for this - biology. Evolution of the human species explains it. Humans have evolved in such a way as to depend on their brains for survival. We don't have sharp claws, fast limbs, thick skin, horns, camouflage, flight, or any number of defenses that would otherwise protect us from predators and help us provide resources for survival for the next generation. But we do have clever-as-hell brains, and we have each other.

 

Our brains have evolved to take in a fantastic amount of information in a relatively short time. While our childhood, and our dependency, is longer than other animals, so to is the information we take in. Because we are social creatures (our survival depends on the cooperation of others), much of that information is socially based, and socially biased. Psychologists and neurologists study the ways in which human brains take in this information, and we have learned so much in the last few decades about this process. We've learned, for example, we accommodate for lack of knowledge by making assumptions naturally, and sometimes quite broadly. We've learned that we are pattern seekers, and predictors, and we love to see confirmation of our predictions. We've learned that we attribute in others what we experience (and that "others" isn't always human). We've learned that we have cognitive blinder that essentially render us incapable of seeing certain information, as if it didn't exist, regardless of how obvious it is to others, so long as they don't share the same blinders. We've learned so much about the brain, cognitive development, and social behavior, and one thing we've learned is that while our societies are often quite high tech, our brains are still as primitive as those brains that traveled in clans of 50-200, fearing outsiders, and attributing intent and agency to otherwise coincidental events.

 

In answer to this question, you need feelings because they help you maintain a social connection with other people, which your brain has evolved to prioritize. They allow you to act in such a way that maintains your general security (ie, reciprocal ethics inspire people to look out for your best interests the way you look out for theirs). They allow you to respond without using precious time to think rationally, a liability when predators may be just behind that copse of trees. 

 

But... to play devil's advocate, while I don't want to give the impression that we shouldn't rely on our spouses for our emotional well-being, I do think we owe it to them to not demand more than is ethical. Some people rely on external validation to a point where it's no longer a reciprocal relationship, but one of service. I'm not suggesting that's at play with you and your dh. I wouldn't know, but I know sometimes I have to step back and wonder if I've expected some emotional service from my dh that isn't fair, and I know he's considered this same thing from his perspective. Communicating our feelings helps to keep in touch with each other's thoughts, but sometimes, keeping them to ourselves helps as well, as sometimes we burden others with the expectation of maintaining our emotional well-being unfairly. 

 

I also suspect that training a partner to conform to one's emotional needs can sometimes feel patronizing, and some people prefer to find other solutions to the problems of meeting emotional needs. Sharing your paintings with peers would be an example, but I don't mean that as a thinly veiled hint. I also think it's not inappropriate for your dh to recognize that ignoring your feelings can be unnecessarily selfish on his part. I just mean to suggest there's no "right" answer here, but one that works for you both.  

[albeto.]

He wants to treat others the way he wants to be treated, because that's the right away. The emotions way is the wrong way and shouldn't be encouraged.

 

Heh, this is why I think the "golden rule" is nonsense. It means something very different to each person, and can cause more trouble than it's worth. With regard to his ignoring his feeling, no he doesn't. He just feels differently than you do. He may feel less intensely, or consider his feelings for a shorter amount of time, or attribute different meaning to them (that's my prediction), but if he's a human, he's acting on his feelings. We all do. We can't experience life, learn, and survive without doing so. 

[BooksandBoys]

Heh, this is why I think the "golden rule" is nonsense. It means something very different to each person, and can cause more trouble than it's worth. With regard to his ignoring his feeling, no he doesn't. He just feels differently than you do. He may feel less intensely, or consider his feelings for a shorter amount of time, or attribute different meaning to them (that's my prediction), but if he's a human, he's acting on his feelings. We all do. We can't experience life, learn, and survive without doing so.

Yes, and I'll expand on this. Individuals have a tendency to believe that their personal feelings and actions are logical and based on reason but that the feelings and actions of other people are illogical or based on a personal failing of that person.

 

This is incorrect, of course. If it were true, all people would be simultaneously perfect and horrible failures.

 

The trick of relationships, I think, is to learn to recognize that your internal world (your opinions, beliefs, values, emotions, and decisions) is YOUR internal world and only yours. It is not the world that your children live in. It is not the world that your neighbor lives in, and it is not the world that your husband or wife lives in. Not only is your internal world different, but it's not better!

 

Some people are better at learning this than others. Those who refuse to learn this can be very hard to live with.

 

You aren't wrong to ask your husband for support about your art, but if this has gone on as long as you suggest, you are setting yourself up to be hurt by his lack of engagement. This and other posts suggest that he believes his internal world is the only correct world. When dealing with someone like that, you have to adjust your internal world (the belief that your husband should be emotionally supportive) and go elsewhere (peers, Internet?) for your validation.

 

In reference to your example about your DD, it sounds like it's high time for you to start teaching your daughter and other children that not everyone is going to be emotionally supportive and that she does not have to expose herself to the pain of that rejection.

 

I would not be encouraging my daughter to try "harder" to engage her father. I would, instead, be regularly discussing with my kids that they can "choose" to tell their father what they want, in whatever way they want, but that they do not "have" to tell him anything.

 

Don't raise your kids to believe that they should bend over backwards to get attention from someone who is indifferent or cruel to them. You know where that will lead when they are choosing their own partners as adults...

 

I would also be learning to listen and acknowledge their hurt over his rejection of their happiness (whether they talk to him about something or not). It hurts to tell your parent (or spouse) something and be mostly ignored. It hurts just as much to know that you can't tell you parent (or spouse) something "because" you'll be ignored. Your kids need a sympathetic ear for either scenario. Be a soft place to land for them. Find a soft place for you to land (a good friend who will offer praise or sympathy).

[happi duck]

(Hugs)

 

Dh and I have a similar struggle. I am exhausted by being the one who always needs to add the "translation" step. ("He doesn't mean it, I'm asking too much, this isn't how he's wired, I *know* he loves me so that should be enough" etc)

 

I feel like my life is a game of rock, paper, scissors...only I don't, and don't want to, "beat" anyone.

 

Ugh. Turning into a novel so stopping now.

 

(Hugs)

 

.

Edited January 13, 2016 by happi duck

[goldberry]

 

 

When I tell DH that I feel hurt by his words, all I really want to hear is that he didn't mean to and that he is sorry. For him this means that I'm emotionally manipulative because I want him to say something that he believes is not true.

 

 

Is it not true that he did not mean for you to feel hurt?  That part should be true.  When we love someone, we should feel sad that they are hurt, whether we did it or not.  He can still extend sympathy to you.

 

In my marriage, if I feel something, or if DH feels something, it is our job to resolve it together.  It is not acceptable that DH is unhappy with a situation, just because I believe I am "in the right" or that it was not "my fault".  Because I love DH, I try to understand why he is unhappy.  I try to do what is within my power to resolve it.  (Some things are obviously not within my power, and that's okay.)

 

I don't think the argument "you shouldn't feel that way, so I'm just going to ignore it" holds water in a marriage. 

[sassenach]

See, I logically do get it.

 

He is not wrong, because he is his own person.

 

Would I be able to ignore my loved one's achievements? I can't. It would feel like torture to me.

 

I do know that he views communicating with me as "expectations" and "manipulations" and he stoically and consciously won't give in. And I don't want him to be pressured into not being true to himself. I don't.

 

I don't set out with thinking, Oh, I'm going to show him my art, and I'm expecting him to praise it. But I guess there is an implicit expectation, no, not of praise, but of a connection? Because this is how I roll. I share because of needing to connect.

 

So then this leads me towards not sharing. Because logically I know I shouldn't (he won't connect). And emotionally I am growing out of the idea of insanity, where you do the same thing over and over expecting a different result. I haven't shared much in a while. When I don't share, I don't feel connected. When I don't feel connected, I don't feel we have a relationship, because a relationship for me is about emotional connection.

 

I can't intellectualize this all I want, but I still don't see how to go around it.

 

My teen DD started telling me that she doesn't feel like sharing with DH anymore because in her opinion he underreacts to her achievements. I can talk to her until I'm blue in my face that DD is probably wired differently, that daddy doesn't feel emotions the way we do, that daddy is a thinker, that daddy loves her...And we do talk about this a lot. But she is like me. She doesn't feel comfortable sharing with him because at the end she ends up *feeling* down. Just like I do.

 

I want her to be better than me. No one talked to me when I was a kid and explained those things. We talk and talk and talk about knowing vs feeling, and that daddy supports her and loves her, but no, daddy won't support her with words, because he can't.

 

But part of me is asking, is this for real? At first I was telling her to "prep" Dad. He is might not know all the details of why some things are important to her, so he can't know what's important to her and what not. If she were to just tell him, "hey, got graded in martial arts today" he might not know that it was a big deal. So DD would tell him, "Dad, so you know how I find martial arts really hard? And I'm terrified of gradings? I got graded today and I got my next stripe."

 

And it turns out she ends up feeling more hurt because she shared something really personal with him, and still got "okay, I guess" from him.

 

And when I teased it out of him later, his reply was that well, it was a stripe, not a full belt, so not important. Didn't she tell you she was terrified and it WAS a HUGE deal for her? "What to be terrified of? They only grade when you are ready anyway. She KNEW she was ready. Not a big deal."

 

So?

I think counseling might be a huge help here. And whatever communication improvements come from it, there's no doubt that it will trickle down to your dd. You will be able to advise her better, and hopefully your dh will learn that communicating in a way that honors the emotional needs of those he loves is an important thing. This sounds like a mash up of radically different personalities and, on his end, the lack of desire to meet others where they're at, or at least half-way there.

[Guest]

Maybe a little rabbit trail, but I think some people have this problem with their faith, too.

 

Dd's Sunday school class was going thru the Nicene Creed, and the teacher asked what they thought about it, and if they believed it all. Some said yes, some no, but all had things to share. So I told dd that you can look at I Believe as a statement that says, "I intellectually assent to these things," or you can look at I Believe as a statement that says, "I put my trust in."

 

I think love is the same way. Instead of making it about feelings or about intellect solely, maybe thinking of it as "I put my trust in" could be another way.

 

(I hope that's clear--I'm a little under the weather today and not writing very clearly.)

Yeah, this is a big feature for me and has a lot to do with my sort of <*shrug* - I don't know what I am> posture regarding faith. I intensively asked these questions: "What does it mean when someone says they love God?" And "What makes someone say they know God loves them?" I never could get a satisfactory answer to this, so I carry out the tenants of my faith, but sometimes I'm sitting in church just going, "I don't get all this 'love for God' stuff."

 

I don't know...sometimes I think I have a defective love detector, because I don't generally feel that others love me or really even value me.

[albeto.]

Yeah, this is a big feature for me and has a lot to do with my sort of <*shrug* - I don't know what I am> posture regarding faith. I intensively asked these questions: "What does it mean when someone says they love God?" And "What makes someone say they know God loves them?" I never could get a satisfactory answer to this, so I carry out the tenants of my faith, but sometimes I'm sitting in church just going, "I don't get all this 'love for God' stuff."

 

I don't know...sometimes I think I have a defective love detector, because I don't generally feel that others love me or really even value me.

 

I don't think the two are related. I suspect your conclusions about not feeling loved or valued are probably a matter of crossing signals, and certain communication means something different to you than it does to the one relaying the message, if that makes sense. There may also be cognitive biases built in there that prevent you from seeing what is obvious to others. These questions about feeling or knowing a god's love are different simply because the method and means of communication is different. 

[Guest]

I don't think the two are related. I suspect your conclusions about not feeling loved or valued are probably a matter of crossing signals, and certain communication means something different to you than it does to the one relaying the message, if that makes sense. There may also be cognitive biases built in there that prevent you from seeing what is obvious to others. These questions about feeling or knowing a god's love are different simply because the method and means of communication is different.

Yes, I think you're right about that, but I still ask those love God questions when someone is passionately convinced of their love for God, or God's love for them. So, let's say we separate the two things and just ask what love looks like between people. If I ask myself, "what makes me think DH loves me," my answer will be almost totally behavioral. I might say - well, he continues to come home, so he chooses to remain married to me. But that doesn't necessarily prove he loves *ME,* it just indicates that it makes more sense to remain married than to not, because remaining married is at least more comfortable than going to divorce court would be, KWIM?

 

When people talk like they are so "in love with Jesus," or, they say they love God or they know God loves them, it just plain puzzles me. (Probably, albeto, you aren't going to be one to shine a lot of light on that, either.) But I guess it is back to me looking for something to indicate "love" that is actually behavioral. Many, many people of faith would say you can't assume God's favor if good things happen, nor God's punishment if bad things happen, but if that is so, what would a person be basing "love God" on?

[The Girls' Mom]

 

 

Saying "sorry" never feels right to DH, because intellectually he didn't do anything wrong.

 

So I'm feeling sad / upset / emotional that he didn't say one kind word about my painting again. He thinks that I'm being ungrateful and ignorant because *of course* he is supportive. He paid for all my painting supplies. He paid for my seminars.

 

So??

I feel like I could have written most of this.  

 

My dh and I do not connect emotionally like that either.  His idea of love:  working and providing for his family.  If I come to him with "feelings" it usually ends badly and in a huge misunderstanding. Unfortunately, he lives in a house full of emotional females, so he is generally disconnected from most of our lives.  

 

Art is a HUGE part of my life.  In fact, I was, at one point, going to make a career of it.  (reasons why I didn't are another story)  But he doesn't get it.  At all.  In fact, it is usually pure misery on his face if he has to deal with or talk about it for more than a minute or two.  It hurts because it is such a part of who I am, and part of me thinks that if he doesn't like it then he must not like a large part of who I am. However, he happily funds my art to keep me happy.  (or at least to keep me from going off the deep end)  He just doesn't want to be involved in it.  This includes going to events, etc.  

Honestly, we operate so differently that we kind of live separate lives in the same house now.  Just about the only thing we do together is go to church and watch TV.  

 

The girls don't often share the struggles they have with him, because he would make them seem small and unimportant.  It isn't intentional, and he never WANTS to hurt our feelings, they just don't make sense to him.  We all love him, but we've also all come to realize that he's never going to be any different.  

 

I struggle with this on a daily basis.  I AM an emotionally driven person.  I've lived with this man for 23 years and the struggle hasn't gone away...I've just developed a thick skin and coping mechanisms, including getting my emotional needs met through other means.  (not talking about an affair or anything.)

Edited January 14, 2016 by The Girls' Mom

[happi duck]

I look back and see that I used to have my needs met elsewhere. Those relationships don't exist anymore. I really want to have a mutually supportive relationship with dh. I wish we had worked on this sooner.

 

(Hugs) for everyone in the same boat.

[Tsuga]

Every time you post about your husband, he is telling you that you are wrong about the fact that he is acting like a jerk.

 

He belittles your feelings, your daughter's anxiety, your daughter's food problems, and ignores other problems. Then, when these problems of unkindness are brought to his attention, he insists that he has no feelings about anything--making you feel crazy and wrong for getting upset because he did something wrong.

 

Maybe you don't feel loved because he is mean to you, but you "know" he loves you because if you did not know that, the consequences would be severe and you aren't prepared to deal with them.

 

You always come across as such a kind person.

 

You don't deserve to be made to feel like there is something wrong with you for seeking a human connection.

 

He is not providing it.

 

And he has also implied to you that if you were to leave him, he would not feel sad. He would know you didn't love him, but no feelings. He doesn't have feelings. Edit to ad: OP's husband has said this on multiple occasions that she's posted about. "I don't know why you're upset. I don't understand feelings!"

 

Boy, that must make him feel pretty powerful.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Tsuga

[kbutton]

Every time you post about your husband, he is telling you that you are wrong about the fact that he is acting like a jerk.

 

He belittles your feelings, your daughter's anxiety, your daughter's food problems, and ignores other problems. Then, when these problems of unkindness are brought to his attention, he insists that he has no feelings about anything--making you feel crazy and wrong for getting upset because he did something wrong.

 

Maybe you don't feel loved because he is mean to you, but you "know" he loves you because if you did not know that, the consequences would be severe and you aren't prepared to deal with them.

 

You always come across as such a kind person.

 

You don't deserve to be made to feel like there is something wrong with you for seeking a human connection.

 

He is not providing it.

 

OP, I hate to say this, but I am this sounds possible, though it's also possible that things aren't yet this bleak or that your DH can change. (I can't say that I've read all your posts about your husband.) I don't think that means there is no hope, but I think this describes the dynamic pretty well. I am not sure I agree with the part about how you might not be able to handle the consequences of seeing your husband in this light. I think people can be very strong, and realizing something like this is an opportunity to find a new way to respond to things, get help, etc. I am very, very sorry you can't experience the kind of connection with your DH that you want and deserve.

 

I don't think it's about subjective stuff only--thinker vs. feeler or art vs. something that doesn't require interpretation. I have personal experience with being a thinker who gets rebuffed by a feeler when I'm trying to make similar interpersonal connections. Some people are emotionally stilted, and there are feelers in this category as well. It has made me more responsive to others, though I'm sure I don't always pull it off well or always connect meaningfully. If your husband can't get the significance of what your daughter said with the broader context and explicit request of support, then this goes way beyond having different expectations. It's like he's defined emotions and responsiveness into something that isn't real or valid. It's not a spouse's job to be the total emotional support for their husband or wife, but it is a spouse's job to be responsive in a meaningful way to some extent.

 

I will note from personal experience that some people don't know how to include another person's thoughts and feelings into their own world--it can be a result of mental illness, trauma, etc., as others have noted, but it can also be a symptom of ADHD, autism, or other things that contribute to a lack of social understanding and reciprocity. It can also be part of childhood training--if someone has a rather "different" parent (the person I'm thinking of has a mother who probably has undiagnosed autism, and has an enormous lack of the kind of self-awareness that leads to deeper connections sometimes), it can lead to a huge lack of training. On top of that, these developmental things run in families. Most people with ADHD, for instance, have at least one parent with ADHD, and in previous generations, it was often untreated--that can have a huge ripple effect and lead to significant skill deficits into adulthood. I also see some of this in parts of my extended family--I think some people are truly borderline/narcissistic, but I think it's possible to act that way because you have an underlying problem that you've not seen, acknowledged, or discovered. The good news is that some people who discover and acknowledge these things can work on them and make some amazing connections with others, even if they are still not exactly neurotypical.

 

I do think that counseling for you and your kids would be very helpful. They need to know how to avoid attaching themselves to people who treat them badly in the future while also learning how to live with their dad and his responses.

[Desert Strawberry]

My husband sounds a bit like yours. I have learned that he will not inquire after my feelings. He will never ask how I am doing unless I have specifically brought up my emotional state. If I am subtle, he will miss it and he will not pursue it. He will move right along without pause to whatever HE wants to talk about. 
He will never ( actually, yesterday he did give me a surprising unsolicited compliment on a project, so not NEVER) be excited about my projects. He just doesn't do that. I have even told him to lie to me (unheard of between us), tell me I'm pretty, tell me you like my hair/makeup/dress/knitting/crochet/painting/whatever. I just need to hear the words, even if he doesn't mean it. 
No apologies for unintentional slights. If he apologizes, it means that he was wrong, that he behaved badly, that he intentionally hurt me. If it was unintentional, he should be able to explain, justify and excuse his behavior, that should be just fine with me. ( he doesn't do this anymore. He apologizes even he isn't sure what he did that was bad. He apologizes for my hurt feelings. Then he asks me what he did that hurt. This doesn't happen often.)

The difference I'm seeing is that D WANTS to make it better. He WANTS me to feel loved. He be a bit self-absorbed and bumbling, and takes me for granted, but when I say,"D, this isn't ok with me" he cares, he listens, he tries to make it better. I can't fault him for being who he is. BUt I can fault him if he doesn't try to improve. I don't see this with your DH. 

 

I think you need counselling as a couple. It sounds like he is deeply entrenched in the "My way is right, no emotions!" and getting him out of that very cozy spot where every upset is someone else's fault is going to be tough. 

I don't say this lightly. If my husband told me he would not be sad if I took the kids and left, I would test that theory. He would be coming home to a very nice, clean, quiet house without us in it. I would not stay in a marriage with a man was unwilling to acknowledge that my feelings even exist. That would be too much. 

I hope this doesn't come across as husband bashing. I hate when wives ask for help and everyone says "HE needs to do this, and HE needs to do that." We can detail every fault and flaw, but in the end, you have no control over your husband's behavior. You can ask him to change, but he has to want to. 
 

My advice is #1 Ask him to go to counseling with you. 
#2 Go to counseling alone. You have to decide for yourself if your behavior and your situation is working for you. 

#3 Leave. Do this last. If he refuses to go to counseling with you, after you are sure you have your own head on straight. Get out. You say know he loves you. I don't believe that. Love in a feeling. If he doesn't have them ( or doesn't acknowledge having them) then he CAN"T love you. 

[Tsuga]

I will say one thing to add to what you write Desert Strawberry:

 

If he is not physically endangering you, not cheating, and not making cruel remarks, simply, he not there for you--then I would not leave with a child in the house. I'd let him go but I wouldn't necessarily leave. I would emotionally disengage and make friends and find a way to get that need met elsewhere in a platonic relationship (ideally with someone that I couldn't possibly ever be romantically attracted to).

 

Being neglected can be incredibly hurtful, but at the same time, given how fragile we are--I think at this point counseling and reaching out to get needs met elsewhere might be a healthy road for the time being as well.

 

My advice would be different if he were actively belittling OP and like, following her around the house to criticize, but from what I understand, he's more a defensive person. He doesn't outright say things, he just does little things and then refuses to apologize. Irritating, hard to love, but possible to live with if you have a teen daughter who has anxiety. Protect yourself, heal yourself and your daughter--whether you remain in the home or not. :grouphug:

[Carol in Cal.]

It sounds like your DH is pretty self-centered AND like he always has to win.

That's a rough combo to live with.  

 

I think you need to get your emotional sustenance elsewhere if he won't talk about this reasonably.

 

I will say, I have an acquaintance whose wife takes her household responsibilities at home very seriously, and he thinks they are trivial.  So it drives him absolutely crazy that she wants to discuss the color scheme for the bathroom, for instance.  As he says, "It's not that important ANYWAY!" (This always ticks me off on her behalf.)  Finally one time I told him that he was belittling his wife by belittling what is important to her, and that that will tear her down over time.  And to his credit, although he still thinks this stuff, he doesn't articulate it as much anymore.  Maybe sometime someone else will praise something that she does in such a way that he will also see it differently.  It's not impossible for people like that to change their points of view.  Usually it take something 'different' to make them change, though.

 

Insanity is doing the same thing but expecting different results.