Do you find it odd?

[SparklyUnicorn]

I used the medical analogy and perhaps I shouldn't have, but I recognized we aren't talking about life or death.  Maybe the point was missed.  The point was that we take advice or listen to people who are perceived as experts due to their research, though they may have limited real world experience.  Is that worded better?  Even experts are wrong, certainly that is recognized - in psychology, medical fields, and every other field.  Experts often lead others astray with their good intentions.  It isn't their lack of knowledge or their experience, it is just that they offer their LIMITED knowledge and experience and current belief on a topic that then evolves.

 

I wonder if either I have someone in mind that is popular on Periscope and is really doing wonderful things for the homeschooling movement, though she has young children is someone very different than who others have in mind.

 

Are there young mothers out there actually DOING DAMAGE to young children or homeschooling families or is this just supposition that it could happen?  Because this notion that pivots on the idea that experience is the ultimate form of expertise is silly.  I know people who homeschooled, did it poorly by popular measure, but have done it for a long time. Experience most certainly did not transform them into an expert.  And yet I know some young mamas who are so very intentional about their homeschooling that they have certainly earned my respect and admiration.  Others would certainly gain insight and joy from their input.

 

Absolutely experts can be wrong.  I don't often listen to them either. 

 

And you figure as homeschoolers we are bold enough to think we can do a better job than "experts". 

 

I would say many on TWTM strike me as fairly diligent homeschoolers.  That is much different than some of the people I've met otherwise though.  Of course not all. 

Edited January 4, 2016 by SparklyUnicorn

[SparklyUnicorn]

I will admit, I have a hard time taking anything seriously from a local mom who proclaims to have been homeschooling for 5 years.  Her oldest is 5.

Yeah that's kinda crazy.

[Haiku]

I think it's also good to remember that in most areas of education you can be an expert on one specific age/stage. For example, I am genuinely an expert on rhythmic development in children between the ages of 4-7, and could probably make a pretty good case for being an expert on teaching music to that age group in general. 

 

Homeschooling is perhaps the only area where you need to be an expert-or at least know what you don't know and how to access resources-in everything.

 

If you have experience with multiple children, I'd be inclined to agree that you could be an expert. If your experience is limited to your own children, I would probably have a different opinion.

 

As far as being an expert at everything in homeschooling--nope, no way. I am NOT an expert. I only know what has and hasn't worked with my own two kids. I can give advice limited to that perspective only. Yes, I do need to know how to access assistance and resources, but that does not make me an expert, either.

 

But, it is threads EXACTLY like this one that makes young homeschooling moms hunker down and not share their $0.02 and it is a shame, an absolute shame, because their voice is quieted. 

 

I certainly don't want to smother anyone's voice, but neither do I see anything wrong with inexperienced people being called on their inexperience when they are portraying themselves as experts. There is a world of difference between discussing ideas and opinions with the understanding that we are limited in our knowledge and experience and shouting to the world that you have found the way because you have spent a year homeschooling your six year old or a week using a shiny new curriculum. I think it's fine to point out that those people come from a limited perspective. It reminds me of the parents who crow about how good of parents they are because their (invariably young, only) child is so easy to parent. It's almost always a case of that parent having a relatively compliant child; until the parent has a second, third, or difficult child, they don't really understand that a lot more goes into raising kids than having some perfect, textbook theory that creates awesome kids, guaranteed.

 

Theory and practice are really just so very different. I read TWTM when my kids were very young and "omigosh!" It was so revolutionary and made such perfect sense and would definitely produce the best-educated kids around! Except many of the things SWB suggested bored my bright, academic child to tears and played to every weakness that my bright, dyslexic, processing-disordered child has. I just had to make changes based on the real situation, based on experience. 

 

And again, I see nothing wrong with offering advice even without having much experience so long as the advice giver is honest.

 

Yep. If your kid's five and you're winging it like the rest of us, say so.

[brehon]

You know, BlsdMama, I understand what you're saying and, to an extent, I agree with you about letting people's voices be heard even if they've "only" been homeschooling for N years (where N = some arbitrary number less than the number of years the more experienced parent has homeschooled). I don't want younger parents to feel like their thoughts aren't valued or as if *they* as individuals aren't valued. And you're also correct that more experienced parents can do a lot to help "raise up" younger parents.

 

However, I believe that this involves a two way street of communication. Yes, more experienced homeschoolers can and perhaps should listen more to less experienced homeschoolers without condescension or disdain. AND less experienced homeschooling parents should listen more to the more experienced homeschoolers without condescension or disdain.

 

As I mentioned in my first post I don't want younger/less experienced hs parents to feel that they should be seen and not heard; however, I do object to rigid pronouncements from anyone, really, but certainly someone who hasn't even dealt with the age/school level/issue under consideration. Wisdom simply doesn't come from only reading about something, IMHO. I believe wisdom comes from the intersection of theoretical knowledge and hard won experience. And that experience often, nay I would say always, includes a measure of failure.

[DawnM]

Hey, if younger moms are open and honest and say, "My oldest is a 3rd grader and this is what we use and this is why we like it" fine.  If a young mom, whose oldest is a 9 year old, starts proclaiming what high school HSers should do, I have a problem with it.

 

Most people have opinions, most people who blog have strong opinions......that is why I don't read them.......I have my own strong opinions and I am already right.  

 

JUST KIDDING!  Please don't go off on me.  

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I also find some of the super pristine and highly detailed blogs rather intimidating.  Like what am I doing wrong that I don't have hours to devote to this?  Ohhhh I see, your one kid is 5.  Well alright then. 

 

I guess I go more for someone I can relate to on some level.  I feel turned off and intimidated when someone comes across as too perfect (with regards to homeschooling or child rearing).

 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

 

Ok, but fwiw, you are a person who I'd take advice from looking at your resume on your signature.  You are like the last person who needs to defend giving homeschooling and parenting advice!

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh but does anyone notice that nobody can seem to give potty training advice?  It's weird.  I've asked in the past and nobody could tell me much.  And I admit if you asked me, it is a blur.  I don't know how it happened.  It felt like it never would.  Somehow it did.  But don't ask me how.

 

 

[SarahW]

Why do you think that is? :) Maybe those of us with experience know something? ;)

 

I'm in my 17th year of homeschooling. I have one kid finishing up college and will likely graduate summa cum laude, one who's a sophomore in college, and a 4th grader. I've been around for a while. When newer homeschoolers find out that I have experience and ask my advice, they very frequently dismiss it. 

 

I continue to encourage those who ask for my advice and watch them forge their own path.

 

 

Did you completely miss the point that she personally knows someone homeschooled with that philosophy, and it worked out horribly?

 

Personally, I take even "veteran" and "successful" homeschool advice with an enormous handfuls of salt. One approach that appears to have worked well with one child, well, isn't that grand. What does the child herself think? Will she think it grand when she's in her 30's and has her own kids? How about in her 40's, when life shifts her interests and career?

 

This is why I discount "success" stories like the Swann's. The story's not done when a homeschooled kid graduates college and gets a job, even if they become a doctor when they're 25. On the other hand, I do give SWB extra weight because she implemented the methods of her own education with her own children. There's experience, and then there's experience.

 

My own experience being homeschooled was bad (largely because my mother received the bad advice that play > learning and literate kids could just teach themselves everything, and both were true even in middle school and beyond) and I try not to be wet blanket. But I can speak to some of what doesn't work for middle school, even though my oldest is only 9. But I try to stay out of the upper-level threads, I don't feel like explaining my background all the time, and I don't like it when people simply assume I'm an idealistic moron.

 

Personally, I'm not that worried about newbies with littles writing about an organization method. I do see the danger of getting burnt out from spending too much $$$ on k4 and having nothing left for 3rd. But really, most people find their groove. What I see more dangerous is when an experienced mom tells a newbie (this is just a representative example) "Oh, if your kids read a lot, don't worry about doing any LA. My kids were readers so I never used a LA curriculum and they memorized and performed Romeo & Juliet in 7th!" and has no idea that her husband being a pastor, the co-op class with the English prof, the nightly read-alouds from classic lit, the church summer camp with the thespian counselor, or the audiobooks in the car also played a huge role, not to mention that her kids would score higher than average on an IQ test. But new mom is left to think "Wow! Johnny reads Goosebumps now, so he'll eventually just read Shakespeare on his own!" Unfortunately, no, probably not. But once new mom figures that out, there might not be time to fix it. Johnny may manage to go on to college and get a job anyways, sure, but adult Johnny will probably know that his reading talent was undeveloped, and feel vaguely guilty about it.

 

I'm interested in hearing advice and ideas, yeah. But I need to hear the whys, and especially the buts.  

[Haiku]

Oh but does anyone notice that nobody can seem to give potty training advice?  It's weird.  I've asked in the past and nobody could tell me much.  And I admit if you asked me, it is a blur.  I don't know how it happened.  It felt like it never would.  Somehow it did.  But don't ask me how.

 

I suggest letting your two-year-old son come to you and say "no more underpants" and then be perfectly trained with no accidents, ever. It worked for me. Seriously.  :D

 

I'd also suggest not leaving your two-year-old daughter with your father for 8 days while you go adopt your son, because your father will put your daughter back in diapers so she doesn't risk an accident, and then she will be untrained when you get home. Seriously.  :sad:

[SparklyUnicorn]

I suggest letting your two-year-old son come to you and say "no more underpants" and then be perfectly trained with no accidents, ever. It worked for me. Seriously.  :D

 

I'd also suggest not leaving your two-year-old daughter with your father for 8 days while you go adopt your son, because your father will put your daughter back in diapers so she doesn't risk an accident, and then she will be untrained when you get home. Seriously.  :sad:

 

LOL

 

Yeah one of mine was so stubborn that it got to the point where I was telling him that if he didn't figure it out soon he'd be changing his own diaper.  He learned how to read before he learned using the potty!

 

But the the other one was much much younger and it really was quick and easy.  But he also read much later.

 

Go figure...

[BlsdMama]

Light bulb moment.

I

 

I just realized I'm arguing the wrong side of this. Ignore everything I've said previously. I'm calling a publisher. I hope you'll all buy my book on homeschooling and parenting. After all, I am THE expert. (Said tongue in cheek.) ;) Bwwaaaa has ha.

[SarahW]

However, I've seen how like-minded without regard to the future can really hurt kids in the long run, when parents only take advice from parents of same aged kids.

 

 

Can you say more about this? I'm really curious, 

[morningcoffee]

So glad there was no such thing as blogging when I first started out. I would have made such a fool of myself  :tongue_smilie:

[albeto.]

I used the medical analogy and perhaps I shouldn't have, but I recognized we aren't talking about life or death.  Maybe the point was missed.  The point was that we take advice or listen to people who are perceived as experts due to their research, though they may have limited real world experience.  Is that worded better?  Even experts are wrong, certainly that is recognized - in psychology, medical fields, and every other field.  Experts often lead others astray with their good intentions.  It isn't their lack of knowledge or their experience, it is just that they offer their LIMITED knowledge and experience and current belief on a topic that then evolves.

 

I wonder if either I have someone in mind that is popular on Periscope and is really doing wonderful things for the homeschooling movement, though she has young children is someone very different than who others have in mind.

 

Are there young mothers out there actually DOING DAMAGE to young children or homeschooling families or is this just supposition that it could happen?  Because this notion that pivots on the idea that experience is the ultimate form of expertise is silly.  I know people who homeschooled, did it poorly by popular measure, but have done it for a long time. Experience most certainly did not transform them into an expert.  And yet I know some young mamas who are so very intentional about their homeschooling that they have certainly earned my respect and admiration.  Others would certainly gain insight and joy from their input.

 

I think you're talking about two different things here. I understand your medical analogy was probably a spontaneous, off the cuff remark that just popped into your head. I know you aren't bringing any deep thesis to the table with that, and agree with you that research and practice are not the same animal. I just disagree with the premise that experience is valuable in general. If it contains erroneous information, that's not valuable to one looking for information (or the community, or society). If it contains opinions limited to one demographic but advertised for another, that's not valuable to one looking for content advertised (which is what I gather the OP is talking about, not young homeschoolers in general). 

 

And secondly, I do think that there is actual damage done. For example, there's an entire organization dedicated to the damage done to homeschoolers, most of which were educated under the auspice of religious "Truth," [Homeschoolers Anonymous]. The "experience" offered is often nothing more than confirmation bias and appeals to comfort a manufactured fear. As this is not only devoid of any research, facts, and accountability to any of the claims made, this is a good example of experience being meaningless, and when used as intended, is dangerous to the well being of children as well.

 

Fwiw, I'm an unschooler. I'm also an "old timer," I guess, in that my youngest is in more than half way through his teen years. I've been doing this off and on almost ten years. Hardly an old timer around here, arguably. Anyway, I'd love advice, I'd love someone who has gone through what appears to me to be uncharted waters. It's really daunting to continue this path. I don't want to do it alone if I can help it. For me, families with young kids are uninteresting. There's nothing there I can take away for myself. I don't follow anyone, and I don't see a trend of homeschoolers pretending to be experts simply because I don't keep up with people in social media. From my perspective though, my own personal pet peeve is blogers who promote unschooling ideas only to find that are really promoting project based lessons, guided learning, and managed social experiences. I think stating one's unschooling family starts the day off with table work for 4 hours, as designed by mom, is deceptive. It annoys me to follow a link offered to help only to see something like this. If this is what the OP feels when clicking on blogs that promote themselves as something they are not, I sympathize. 

[BlsdMama]

Oh but does anyone notice that nobody can seem to give potty training advice? It's weird. I've asked in the past and nobody could tell me much. And I admit if you asked me, it is a blur. I don't know how it happened. It felt like it never would. Somehow it did. But don't ask me how.

 

I used to give AWESOME advice on potty training. Eight kids were successful but it only takes ONE to bring you to your knees, lol.

[BlsdMama]

I think you're talking about two different things here. I understand your medical analogy was probably a spontaneous, off the cuff remark that just popped into your head. I know you aren't bringing any deep thesis to the table with that, and agree with you that research and practice are not the same animal. I just disagree with the premise that experience is valuable in general. If it contains erroneous information, that's not valuable to one looking for information (or the community, or society). If it contains opinions limited to one demographic but advertised for another, that's not valuable to one looking for content advertised (which is what I gather the OP is talking about, not young homeschoolers in general). 

 

And secondly, I do think that there is actual damage done. For example, there's an entire organization dedicated to the damage done to homeschoolers, most of which were educated under the auspice of religious "Truth," [Homeschoolers Anonymous]. The "experience" offered is often nothing more than confirmation bias and appeals to comfort a manufactured fear. As this is not only devoid of any research, facts, and accountability to any of the claims made, this is a good example of experience being meaningless, and when used as intended, is dangerous to the well being of children as well.

 

Fwiw, I'm an unschooler. I'm also an "old timer," I guess, in that my youngest is in more than half way through his teen years. I've been doing this off and on almost ten years. Hardly an old timer around here, arguably. Anyway, I'd love advice, I'd love someone who has gone through what appears to me to be uncharted waters. It's really daunting to continue this path. I don't want to do it alone if I can help it. For me, families with young kids are uninteresting. There's nothing there I can take away for myself. I don't follow anyone, and I don't see a trend of homeschoolers pretending to be experts simply because I don't keep up with people in social media. From my perspective though, my own personal pet peeve is blogers who promote unschooling ideas only to find that are really promoting project based lessons, guided learning, and managed social experiences. I think stating one's unschooling family starts the day off with table work for 4 hours, as designed by mom, is deceptive. It annoys me to follow a link offered to help only to see something like this. If this is what the OP feels when clicking on blogs that promote themselves as something they are not, I sympathize. 

 

I can agree with a good deal of this. :)

 

You know, I've seen unschooling done and done well, but only IRL by one person.  She was amazing and I've learned a lot from being her friend.  Ironically, lol, she only had two kiddos - one was eight and one was five when we lived near them.  I admit I have been eager to watch what their schooling looks like through high school and we've now moved across the country from them and I'll have to live through pictures.  But watching her with her kids through the early years was such a blessing to me.  It actually made me re-evaluate my beliefs on homeschooling (what is valuable and what isn't) and appreciate what unschooling CAN be with a very curious, willing, and capable mama.  

 

ETA: Plus I got to see so many cool projects.  I'd never seen lye made from scratch or a real sun stove.

Edited January 4, 2016 by BlsdMama

[abba12]

Why do you think that is? :) Maybe those of us with experience know something? ;)

 

Like I said in my post, I know more than one homeschool family who started late and it turned out horribly. I also know more than one who started early and have never regretted it. Waiting is a very loud, talked about opinion but it's definitely not the only one. It's just those who believe in an early start tend not to talk about it, mostly for fear of judgment I think.

 

I don't dismiss older peoples opinions on the matter. I've researched better-late-than-early ideas thoroughly (mostly in an attempt to understand what on earth my mother in law was thinking when she did it to all her kids, with awful results). I've seen many positive arguments for it which I have listened to with an open mind, and I've drawn a number of good ideas and concepts from it. But I've also come to a different, though well researched and I believe unbiased, conclusion. I know I'm not the only person ever to reach this conclusion, and maybe if the constant pressure among certain older homeschoolers to wait wasn't so strong then those who did start early and have older kids to show for it (and I know they exist, quietly, on this board) would actually be able to speak up about their experiences which are more relevant to me now. As it is, I end up relying on overzealous young mums who are 'homeschooling' until 1st grade, or who I know will end up putting the kids back in school when the real work comes. I don't want to have them as my only source, but they're the only ones who talk about early education resources because everyone else has learned to keep quiet or be torn down by the better-to-wait crowd. 

 

Are they actually claiming to be experts or are they just posting about what they have going on in their own homeschool?  Those are two different things.

 

Do you notice other people referring to these blogs as experts, or the blogs themselves claiming to be?

 

I think this is also pretty true. I have a blog. I post stuff on it. I post confidently because it's my space and I'm tired of having to constantly write disclaimers for every single thing I say. But I never claim to be an expert or know everything, and I certainly wouldn't want anyone taking advice from my blog without doing their own research and assessing their own situation. Frankly, my blog is mostly a place to direct people in my community to since the 'more experienced' homeschoolers can't be bothered helping out the newbies (while, of course, discrediting anything new and different to what they did) and so my pseudo-experience as a homeschooled student makes me the go-to, even for people with students in high school, which is why my blog includes talk about high school based on my experience of it as a student.

 

I was actually getting things neatened up on the blog to put it into my signature this month. I'm seriously rethinking that at this point. Or of putting up a big disclaimer saying that it's only intended for those with younger children. 

[Slache]

I'm seriously rethinking that at this point. Or of putting up a big disclaimer saying that it's only intended for those with younger children.

Don't be silly. I have a blog and I don't feel a need to apologize. I have homeschool friends in Cincinnati, Brazil, and California. They like to know what I'm doing and I like to know what they're doing. My son is the oldest between the three of us and he's 5. It's all good. :)

[abba12]

Did you completely miss the point that she personally knows someone homeschooled with that philosophy, and it worked out horribly?

 

Personally, I take even "veteran" and "successful" homeschool advice with an enormous handfuls of salt. One approach that appears to have worked well with one child, well, isn't that grand. What does the child herself think? Will she think it grand when she's in her 30's and has her own kids? How about in her 40's, when life shifts her interests and career?

 

This is why I discount "success" stories like the Swann's. The story's not done when a homeschooled kid graduates college and gets a job, even if they become a doctor when they're 25. On the other hand, I do give SWB extra weight because she implemented the methods of her own education with her own children. There's experience, and then there's experience.

 

My own experience being homeschooled was bad (largely because my mother received the bad advice that play > learning and literate kids could just teach themselves everything, and both were true even in middle school and beyond) and I try not to be wet blanket. But I can speak to some of what doesn't work for middle school, even though my oldest is only 9. But I try to stay out of the upper-level threads, I don't feel like explaining my background all the time, and I don't like it when people simply assume I'm an idealistic moron.

 

Personally, I'm not that worried about newbies with littles writing about an organization method. I do see the danger of getting burnt out from spending too much $$$ on k4 and having nothing left for 3rd. But really, most people find their groove. What I see more dangerous is when an experienced mom tells a newbie (this is just a representative example) "Oh, if your kids read a lot, don't worry about doing any LA. My kids were readers so I never used a LA curriculum and they memorized and performed Romeo & Juliet in 7th!" and has no idea that her husband being a pastor, the co-op class with the English prof, the nightly read-alouds from classic lit, the church summer camp with the thespian counselor, or the audiobooks in the car also played a huge role, not to mention that her kids would score higher than average on an IQ test. But new mom is left to think "Wow! Johnny reads Goosebumps now, so he'll eventually just read Shakespeare on his own!" Unfortunately, no, probably not. But once new mom figures that out, there might not be time to fix it. Johnny may manage to go on to college and get a job anyways, sure, but adult Johnny will probably know that his reading talent was undeveloped, and feel vaguely guilty about it.

 

I'm interested in hearing advice and ideas, yeah. But I need to hear the whys, and especially the buts.  

 

I'm very sorry to hear your experience. It sounds quite similar to my DHs, and you make a really good point about taking an isolated piece of advice out of context and applying it to a totally different situation. My mother in law took methods that worked for certain families very well I'm sure, but applied them to a completely different situation and they failed miserably, because the methods are irrelevant, the theory behind them is the important part. That's why I'm more likely to take advice from someone well researched, whether old or young, than someone going from just 'what we did' experience, whether old or young. 

 

I always find it interesting to see we aren't the only kids who were homeschooled terribly, yet still chose to homeschool our own kids, just better. We saw past the inadequate methods used and to the heart of what homeschooling could be and still support it despite it's bad results in us. I think that really speaks to how good homeschooling itself can be. I'm rambling. Sentimental moment here lol. 

 

 

But i just want to encourage young mothers - not all of us olders are dismissive of your thoughts and enthusiasm.  Truly, it has value.  I can't tell you how much I deeply enjoy listening to Sarah Mackenzie.  Young mom, filled to the brim with joy and enthusiasm, she has helped me rejuvenate some of my waning enthusiasm about homeschooling.  Doing something for 15+ years, you do eventually tire a bit over teaching addition facts AGAIN. ;)  As a matter of fact, I went out just last week and bought a fun little picture book she recommended and I can't tell you how fun it was to read it with my little people.   

 

Thank you so much for your posts on this thread BlsdMama, they have been so encouraging. I've been near tears reading most of this and you've cheered me up a lot. Thank you for not dismissing us. I totally get what you mean about deserving a BA in homeschooling by the time your child was 8 :D That doesn't mean you had the experience, but, neither do newly graduated uni/college students lol. I knew even as a young teen I would homeschool my own kids, and I've been researching and observing since I was 15 or so, on top of my own experiences throughout my schooling, and watching all sorts of methods by all sorts of families, everything I could. Almost like an apprenticeship lol! And still, my opinion counts for nothing, and I hide my children's ages in my signature in a vain attempt to be respected. 

 

I comment on the high school boards because it's not that long since I went through it myself. But now I wonder if people ignore the graduated homeschooler comment in my signature and just disregard or judge my comments. Should I just stop commenting there altogether because unless people see I've been through it myself they'll think I'm one of 'those' mums trying to give advice on something I know nothing about? I don't feel like explaining my personal history every time I comment.

 

And I recently joined one of the social groups on here. And finally felt respected there. But, all their kids are older than mine, and I've been giving opinions on curriculum and teaching methods. Are they just ignoring and humouring me because my kids are younger than theirs? Am I just supposed to just listen and take, and not give anything back because I don't have enough experience to yet? I thought they appreciated what I'd posted, that I'd been helpful, but they're probably just being negative and thinking 'bless her heart' IRL. 

 

Seriously considering a forum break at this point.... I'm just over this crap and constantly being told everything I do with my kids in our homeschool is wrong by the loud people, even though people will PM me or say quietly in one of the subforum threads that they agree or it worked for them but they don't talk about it much. My kids are gifted/accelerated, and we do early academics, and they LOVE it and I'm not burning out at all, I'm thriving and so are they. But it means I'm basically not allowed to say anything about my own kids on these forums, ever, except in the accelerated subforum. Otherwise I'll be told my ideas aren't 'age appropriate' or that I need to let them play more or whatever. So I never post about my own kids here, at all. And now I'm not supposed to offer advice to others either, so, basically I'm not supposed to speak here at all except on chat board about non-homeschooling topics. Great, glad that's cleared up. I'll go back to lurking here like I have done since I was 15 years old, because apparently lurking on this forum for that many years has still not taught me anything of value to share. 

 

And I know I've been called overdramatic here before and probably am about to be again, but I don't think you guys realize how hurtful some of what's been said is to some of us who are trying to figure things out and are really excited and passionate at this stage in our journeys and just want to plan and share and be excited.

 

Ugh, I must be PMSing if a stupid forum thread can bring me to tears. 

[abba12]

Don't be silly. I have a blog and I don't feel a need to apologize. I have homeschool friends in Cincinnati, Brazil, and California. They like to know what I'm doing and I like to know what they're doing. My son is the oldest between the three of us and he's 5. It's all good. :)

 

Oh I'm keeping my blog. Just rethinking sharing it here.

[Guest]

Hugs Abba! For what it is worth I still think the advice to let them just play until 7-8 years old is ridiculous for many children. There is a happy medium between rigorous early education that a child may not be developmentally ready for, and free time only. I'm on my fourth little student and they have all benefitted from some structured activities like phonogram sounds and story time, alone with mazes, cutting activities, art time, and play. I hardly find it accelerated to have my kinders doing RightStart A and LOE as their core. It's about an hour of work and they love it.

 

I did push my second harder than I should have, thinking that because she was bright like her older sister that she would be as inclined toward table work, but she really didn't have the handwriting skills to manage much physical output beyond games and oral/auditory learning until closer to first grade (6, and 7 was a vast jump forward that was purely biological).

 

I get seriously annoyed when veteran moms pat me on the head or assume I'm being a crazy tiger mom because my kids do schoolwork. They enjoy it and need it for focus and mental engagement. Telling me I'm essentially wasting their childhood by taking two hours of the day to do some school is ridiculous - like it negates the other three hours of indoor playtime and field trips and outside games. They also tend to be the same women who say the silly 'it's just a season' comment, which makes me want to deck them. For some refreshment on that note, Amy just wrote his lovely blog that I wholeheartedly agree with:

http://www.raisingarrows.net/2015/12/its-not-a-season-im-in/

 

You may be PMS-ing, but you still deserve respect and hugs. Thankfully on a board like this I find there are many more wonderful women than condescending, rude, snippy ones. In the social groups and such you're probably finding genuine gems, don't second guess that!

Edited January 5, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[LMD]

I suggest letting your two-year-old son come to you and say "no more underpants" and then be perfectly trained with no accidents, ever. It worked for me. Seriously. :DD

Oh yes please! Can you please come and tell my currently training 2 year old son this? Feel free to throw in something about Sleeping too.

 

I'd also suggest not leaving your two-year-old daughter with your father for 8 days while you go adopt your son, because your father will put your daughter back in diapers so she doesn't risk an accident, and then she will be untrained when you get home. Seriously. :sad:

Ouch. You have my sympathy!

[Ms.Ivy]

I've found some helpful tips about getting homeschooling done from moms with only littles. The best scheduling tips I've used came from moms with kids the same ages as mine. They are in the trenches, had a light bulb moment, shared it on their blog, and helped me out. I didn't get much help from "older" moms who wrote books on managing homeschooling and homemaking for large families, because those moms had been getting help from their older kids for so long that they forgot what it was like to have no kids over the age of seven. I like to listen homeschool moms at different stages of their journey, because often their light bulb moments are just what I needed to know. I don't think anyone should feel discouraged from sharing what they've found is working.

 

That said, I do give more weight to the opinions of people who have been homeschooled and to those who teach college students, and who actually study education and teaching. Just a personal preference. If they had six kids in six years like I did, I would probably pay them to talk to me. Haha

[8circles]

Ummmm, I'm not sure anyone is dissing anyone who is new or young here. Certainly not personally. Nor are they being shut-up. This thread, as I understand it, was about bloggers being deceptive and handing out advice when they weren't qualified. This happens irl as well and I think we can all agree that that is irritating at best. Amiright? Gosh, if not, I'll put a bucket on my head and say it's Tuesday.

What I hear a lot of is dissing experienced homeschooler parents who are unwilling to share or only give advice you don't like. I don't giv a flying fig if you start academics early or radically unschool or something in between. But because you know people who have neglected their kids and and called it "let them play" that doesn't mean "let them play" is wrong. Talk about misapplying methodology.

Take a break if you must, I certainly have at times. I'm sorry that you're feeling hurt. Truly. But nobody here has insulted you. It sounds like you have a lot of wisdom to share and lots of people who want it.

Edited January 5, 2016 by 8circles

[unsinkable]

This thread ALSO mentions people who post on the high school board who have young kids so it evolved past just discussing blogs.

[8circles]

This thread ALSO mentions people who post on the high school board who have young kids so it evolved past just discussing blogs.

 

Yes, it did.  My comment about "it happens IRL too" was an attempt at including that - I get that that didn't come across.  I wasn't clear. But nobody insulted anyone personally.  If someone is posting on a highschool thread & hiding the fact that they don't have and haven't had a highschooler then I think that's equally irritating, at best.  Doesn't mean they don't have valuable input, but they should be forthcoming in their experience level with being a homeschooling parent of that age.  Again, it doesn't mean their input doesn't have value but it isn't the same as someone with that exact experience and people like to have that information and use it to determine which advice to follow.  

 

I don't understand why this is even an issue.  Is it that surprising that people don't consider advice from someone who's done something personally as the same as advice from someone who hasn't?  The person without experience could be giving great, spot-on advice.  But how would anyone know that?  You've got to build up credibility, yk?  It isn't automatic.  IMO you lose some of that credibility when you hide your credentials.  I'm sure I'm not alone.

Edited January 5, 2016 by 8circles

[CAMom]

Did you completely miss the point that she personally knows someone homeschooled with that philosophy, and it worked out horribly?

 

 

 

I don't think I missed the point. If what you read predominately online is experienced homeschoolers reminding younger homeschoolers to relax and have fun during the early elementary years and don't see a lot of experienced homeschoolers giving advice to go with rigorous academics during K-4 or so, then there might be a reason for that.

 

That doesn't mean that those homeschoolers are unschoolers or that they don't believe in academics. From my own personal experience, I found that my kids learned more from more relaxed learning in the early years. We sat down for math (usually) and used a lot of games and movement activities for everything else.

 

Once my older kids were in 5th grade or so, we started more with traditional learning. They both took very intense high school classes including 4 or more years of foreign language, community college classes, AP classes, etc. They both were accepted into great colleges and are doing very well grade wise-one on the Dean's list; one on the President's list. 

 

And, when I'm asked for advice by new homeschoolers, I always tell them, "You can't screw up K-3. Read to them, teach them to read, teach them to add and subtract, and play! Take them on nature walks, let them watch educational programs (if you are OK with TV), teach them to measure ingredients in the kitchen, have them play games with Grandma, etc." 

 

I am not disregarding the experience or opinions of those who have not been at it as long as I have. I just wish that those moms would really listen to what we're saying. I regularly experience "in one ear and out the other" from them. It's OK. I don't think I have the market cornered on homeschooling wisdom. 

 

This is exactly why I don't give unsolicited advice. :)

[momacacia]

Could also be chalked up to the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Oh good! A fancy term for "the more you know, the more you realize you don't know."

[BlsdMama]

I'm very sorry to hear your experience. It sounds quite similar to my DHs, and you make a really good point about taking an isolated piece of advice out of context and applying it to a totally different situation. My mother in law took methods that worked for certain families very well I'm sure, but applied them to a completely different situation and they failed miserably, because the methods are irrelevant, the theory behind them is the important part. That's why I'm more likely to take advice from someone well researched, whether old or young, than someone going from just 'what we did' experience, whether old or young.

 

I always find it interesting to see we aren't the only kids who were homeschooled terribly, yet still chose to homeschool our own kids, just better. We saw past the inadequate methods used and to the heart of what homeschooling could be and still support it despite it's bad results in us. I think that really speaks to how good homeschooling itself can be. I'm rambling. Sentimental moment here lol.

 

 

 

Thank you so much for your posts on this thread BlsdMama, they have been so encouraging. I've been near tears reading most of this and you've cheered me up a lot. Thank you for not dismissing us. I totally get what you mean about deserving a BA in homeschooling by the time your child was 8 :D That doesn't mean you had the experience, but, neither do newly graduated uni/college students lol. I knew even as a young teen I would homeschool my own kids, and I've been researching and observing since I was 15 or so, on top of my own experiences throughout my schooling, and watching all sorts of methods by all sorts of families, everything I could. Almost like an apprenticeship lol! And still, my opinion counts for nothing, and I hide my children's ages in my signature in a vain attempt to be respected.

 

I comment on the high school boards because it's not that long since I went through it myself. But now I wonder if people ignore the graduated homeschooler comment in my signature and just disregard or judge my comments. Should I just stop commenting there altogether because unless people see I've been through it myself they'll think I'm one of 'those' mums trying to give advice on something I know nothing about? I don't feel like explaining my personal history every time I comment.

 

And I recently joined one of the social groups on here. And finally felt respected there. But, all their kids are older than mine, and I've been giving opinions on curriculum and teaching methods. Are they just ignoring and humouring me because my kids are younger than theirs? Am I just supposed to just listen and take, and not give anything back because I don't have enough experience to yet? I thought they appreciated what I'd posted, that I'd been helpful, but they're probably just being negative and thinking 'bless her heart' IRL.

 

Seriously considering a forum break at this point.... I'm just over this crap and constantly being told everything I do with my kids in our homeschool is wrong by the loud people, even though people will PM me or say quietly in one of the subforum threads that they agree or it worked for them but they don't talk about it much. My kids are gifted/accelerated, and we do early academics, and they LOVE it and I'm not burning out at all, I'm thriving and so are they. But it means I'm basically not allowed to say anything about my own kids on these forums, ever, except in the accelerated subforum. Otherwise I'll be told my ideas aren't 'age appropriate' or that I need to let them play more or whatever. So I never post about my own kids here, at all. And now I'm not supposed to offer advice to others either, so, basically I'm not supposed to speak here at all except on chat board about non-homeschooling topics. Great, glad that's cleared up. I'll go back to lurking here like I have done since I was 15 years old, because apparently lurking on this forum for that many years has still not taught me anything of value to share.

 

And I know I've been called overdramatic here before and probably am about to be again, but I don't think you guys realize how hurtful some of what's been said is to some of us who are trying to figure things out and are really excited and passionate at this stage in our journeys and just want to plan and share and be excited.

 

Ugh, I must be PMSing if a stupid forum thread can bring me to tears.

 

I serve both coffee and tea here. You may come for either and a liberal supply of hugs. And, I will add, I value my daughter's opinion to no end... She's nineteen and has NO kids. Trust me, as one of the women who has the most experience in this board, your .02 has value. I know this is absolutely true.

[MaeFlowers]

I read through this thread earlier and have been thinking about who I listen to. I have found that there are certain women on here (I rarely read blogs) whose advise I respect more than others. The thing is, I rarely read signatures. I usually am on my phone and can't see them. I listen to the women that I do because I get a sense of honesty, humility and humor in their responses. Maybe that comes from wisdom, maybe from experience but I don't need to see their age, their children's ages or the number of years they have homeschooled to get that.

 

Some young women (and men) are incredibly insightful and wise beyond their years. Some older women (and men) are blowhards. So, I find the people that speak to me and roll with it.

[EmilyGF]

As my kids get older (and they aren't that old - the oldest is nearly 11), I find that some of the advice that turned me off when my kids were younger resonates with me now. 

 

I think of it like a diet. I have friends who have lost weight by whatever fad diet. It seems really successful for about a year. But then we run into each other a year later and the friend has put back on the weight (and usually 5-10 more pounds). I see discussions about schooling young children like that. Yeah, your kid is learning a lot (or at least your pictures make it look that way) but is that kid getting burnt out? Are you getting burnt out? Are other areas being neglected? Is it building a strong foundation for long term learning? 

 

Currently, though, my favorite people to hear homeschool info from are PhD students in highly competitive fields who were homeschooled through junior high or high school. They have taught me interesting things (and examined my bookshelves very thoroughly). They don't give advice so much as relate stories. :-) And those stories end up useful.

 

Emily

[Murphy101]

Well this convo went off on an interesting trail...

 

I've mentioned here and elsewhere frequently that I have always struggled with who is pushed in home school communities as people we should listen to or take advice from.

 

It's been roughly two decades of me thinking, "I may not know exactly what I'm doing, but I know dang good and well I'm not listening to that crazy mess to figure it out."

 

And muddling along as best I can.

 

I'm graduating my third this year. Idk if that makes me a veteran or not. Idk if it makes my advice have any value. But overall, I have learned what worked for me. Still learning.

 

Sometimes I have specific questions, but not really advice seeking anymore.

 

And since my kids are older and understandably due more privacy, I don't write or otherwise talk about them, whether to give or get advice, as much as I did when they were younger. And frankly, it gets too hard to have time to write about it when you're in the thick of a rough patch.

 

I look back on most of the advice and fretting over the younger ages and think, "It just does not matter. It is so unimportant."

 

But younger/newer moms don't want to hear that, so I politely keep it to myself.

[SarahW]

 

 

And, when I'm asked for advice by new homeschoolers, I always tell them, "You can't screw up K-3. Read to them, teach them to read, teach them to add and subtract, and play! Take them on nature walks, let them watch educational programs (if you are OK with TV), teach them to measure ingredients in the kitchen, have them play games with Grandma, etc." 

 

 

You're not listening to Abba12 and I at all.

 

If that's what you're telling newbies, then it's obvious to me why they don't listen. You seem to think doing those things is easy and obvious. It's not, not to everyone. Teach them to read, teach them math, teach them about trees? How, pray tell, does one do that?

 

Play with Grandma? Wow, my time with my grandmother consisted mostly of watching developmentally inappropriate and unethical episodes of Rosanne. She certainly never thought of playing games, or reading books, or singing nursery songs, or anything else like that.

 

Read to them? Read what? The only picture books I remembered as a kid were Dr Suess, and I didn't much care for them, and neither did my kid. Picking random picture books from the library didn't work either. I need specific recommendations, a booklist.

 

Yes, you CAN screw up K-3. If you're not intentional about creating a rich environment, intentional about teaching numbers, intentional about finding the right educational videos that your kid likes and then turning it on, intentional about giving a correct answer when your child brings you a leaf and asks "what is this?" This stuff may be blindingly obvious to you, but other people need specific help to implement them.

 

I wasn't planning on homeschooling my own kids. There was a time when the oldest went to preschool (which he absolutely loved), then we moved, and he didn't have a preschool option. I should have done the games, the books, the cooking, etc. But I didn't know how. There were vague notions of literacy, language development, motor skills, and so on floating around my head, but I had no idea how to implement those ideas between the hours of 9am-12pm on a Tuesday. So we were lazy, really lazy, and the kid picked up some really bad mental and motor habits which I'm still trying to overcome and which are now really holding him back.

 

Your life, and your family, is not the same as everyone else's. After learning about the value of poetry (from SWB and others) I had to teach myself a few nursery songs so I could sing them to the baby. This is not something that I grew up with, this is not something I did naturally, I needed to be told about it, very specifically, and told the reasoning for it, and then learn how to do it myself. Vagueness about reading books and watching educational television is just utterly useless if you have no idea about what that means, specifically. So yes, I see why newbies want to know "what exactly did you do" and drop money on a complete k4 curriculum which lays it all out for them when they don't get an answer. Dismissing them with "oh, dearie, you're so wrong, you just wait and see" either reinforces how much they need to make up for, or convinces them that being lazy is okay. 

 

This reminds me of a thread from a year or so ago, where we discussed a blog post about "All the ways kids learn without school" or something like that. The author described the book nook with Sir Circumference and classic lit picture books, the art table, the tricked out jungle-gym in the backyard, the manipulatives, and so on, and then how great it was that her 5yo could learn without "school." Lol. Yeah, in that environment, sure. Too bad when my kid was five I didn't know about any of those things (or had the funds and resources to set it up if I did) nor how to use them. There was also the problem (huge problem, imo) that the blogger didn't state that her kids were 5 and under, and didn't leave room for people to think that her advice would be different if her kids were 10 and over.

 

"Just let them play" is fine advice if it is heard by people who already provide an enriched environment and are actively involved in doing things with their kids. But for other people, it's a recipe for understimulation, boredom, and laziness. Can you differentiate between these types of people when you give your advice? Or do you just assume that everyone is like you?

[SarahW]

I'm very sorry to hear your experience. It sounds quite similar to my DHs, and you make a really good point about taking an isolated piece of advice out of context and applying it to a totally different situation. My mother in law took methods that worked for certain families very well I'm sure, but applied them to a completely different situation and they failed miserably, because the methods are irrelevant, the theory behind them is the important part. That's why I'm more likely to take advice from someone well researched, whether old or young, than someone going from just 'what we did' experience, whether old or young. 

 

I always find it interesting to see we aren't the only kids who were homeschooled terribly, yet still chose to homeschool our own kids, just better. We saw past the inadequate methods used and to the heart of what homeschooling could be and still support it despite it's bad results in us. I think that really speaks to how good homeschooling itself can be. I'm rambling. Sentimental moment here lol. 

 

 

 

The only reason I'm homeschooling is because a friend of my husband's highly recommended TWTM, then Crazypant's problems in school sent us scrambling for a solution. I was never anti-homeschooling, but I didn't see homeschooling outside the Dobson/Gothard bubble, or the BJU/Abeka at home model. WTM opened my horizons, and When Children Love to Learn helped me overcome my personal mental issues. 

 

Sadly, my oldest does not like to read nearly as much as the Susan's would like. So I remediate, adapt, and change goals. I'm probably more confident about doing that because of my own experience.

 

I do browse the homeschooling books at the library on occasion. When I come across a book that recommends "oh, homeschooling older kids is easy, just put their textbooks on a desk in their room and tell them to come to you with any questions" (usually these books date to the 90's or earlier) I stick it back on the shelf and sorta push it in too far, so that it falls down in between the stacks. Ooops. Even if that method works out academically with the rare kid, it's a very lonely life, and it's pedagogical nonsense.

 

I'd like to read your blog. Could you PM me the link?

[DawnM]

The only reason I'm homeschooling is because a friend of my husband's highly recommended TWTM, then Crazypant's problems in school sent us scrambling for a solution. I was never anti-homeschooling, but I didn't see homeschooling outside the Dobson/Gothard bubble, or the BJU/Abeka at home model. WTM opened my horizons, and When Children Love to Learn helped me overcome my personal mental issues. 

 

Sadly, my oldest does not like to read nearly as much as the Susan's would like. So I remediate, adapt, and change goals. I'm probably more confident about doing that because of my own experience.

 

I do browse the homeschooling books at the library on occasion. When I come across a book that recommends "oh, homeschooling older kids is easy, just put their textbooks on a desk in their room and tell them to come to you with any questions" (usually these books date to the 90's or earlier) I stick it back on the shelf and sorta push it in too far, so that it falls down in between the stacks. Ooops. Even if that method works out academically with the rare kid, it's a very lonely life, and it's pedagogical nonsense.

 

I'd like to read your blog. Could you PM me the link?

 

I am a bit confused by the lumping Dobson and Gothard together.  They are not at all the same.  Dobson did not homeschool his children and attends a mainline denomination church.   

[brehon]

Abba12 & Sarah, I think what you're missing is that there is a continuum between "do nothing until your kid is X" and "start rigorous academics early". Those who have said "watch that you don't burn out you/your kids", etc have many times been through that and seen the other side - the pre/teens who are so incredibly burnt out on school they no longer put forth *any* effort.

 

It may seem like no one is hearing what you're saying. That isn't the case at all. Your reactions to what others have said is why more experienced parents learn to just smile and nod and not say much. I'm certainly no expert; hell, at times, I doubt myself with my own kids. I *do* have experience trying to do to much too soon with my eldest and dealing with the fall-out. And that experience and the knowledge and wisdom I gained as a result of that experience is just as valid as your experiences.

 

If (general) you feel that you and your kids will do well with your hs plan, go forth and do it! Do what seems right and teach *your* kids. If you feel that you have something to say that will help another parent with their kids, please share it! Your thoughts and advice are wanted, needed, and valued. We are better and stronger when we share and listen to each other. And, as I said before, it's a two way street.

Edited January 5, 2016 by brehon

[SarahW]

I am a bit confused by the lumping Dobson and Gothard together.  They are not at all the same.  Dobson did not homeschool his children and attends a mainline denomination church.   

 

 

Dobson was among the first to popularize homeschooling in Christian circles. Gothard was quick to latch onto it. Both saw homeschooling as an uniquely Christian mission and tied it closely to Christian parenting.

 

Yeah, I KNOW they're different people. But in real life the application of their ideas was incredibly similar (unless you went whole hog on Gothard, which lots of people didn't, or even were aware of). So similar, that my mother easily moved from books by one to the other and back. Lots of fellow homeschoolers I knew did. I was never aware (until I was an adult) that homeschooling could be separate from authoritarian parenting or the evangelical conservative sub-culture. It was a bubble, yes, but a very real one.

[Soror]

As my kids get older (and they aren't that old - the oldest is nearly 11), I find that some of the advice that turned me off when my kids were younger resonates with me now. 

 

Emily

Yep, I remember thinking dismissing a lot of veterans when I was younger. I thought a lot were lazy and didn't really do anything when I heard the relax advice- and I leaned towards better later advice even. Now I realize that I was misconstruing what they were doing and viewing it through my own lens- I felt that sense they were all low-key about it they must not have been doing anything but once you get in the groove it just looks different(and like Sarah I had to figure out about creating this environment of learning- I think there are posts out there about those things but they are phrased in ways that make it seem like a given- when for some it isn't so automatic).

 

I see it now that veterans are just trying to save us from that spazzed out new stage. Around here there is plenty of academic advice for elementary kids, plenty(really I keep hearing this thing about not doing anything until 7 or 8 but that is just not prevelant here- people may say relax at those ages but if you look at what people are doing the vast majority start with their 5yos), lots of blogs as well I don't see a shortage of that at all, the most active blogs are generally for the k-3 set(especially gifted kids- although not active now Satori Smiles is one that was exactly that). Sometimes we see what we want to see, I think it is like with the cloth diapers that Blsdmama mentioned earlier- the new one doing it thinks it is some new thing that she just discovered.

 

*of course there really are hs'ers that are bad and do nothing or nearly nothing that aren't worth listening to, regardless of their experience level but I find that those are way fewer than I thought when I started and although there are plenty that I don't necessarily agree with exactly what they do there is plenty to glean as well.

Edited January 5, 2016 by soror

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

You're not listening to Abba12 and I at all.

 

If that's what you're telling newbies, then it's obvious to me why they don't listen. You seem to think doing those things is easy and obvious. It's not, not to everyone. Teach them to read, teach them math, teach them about trees? How, pray tell, does one do that?

 

Play with Grandma? Wow, my time with my grandmother consisted mostly of watching developmentally inappropriate and unethical episodes of Rosanne. She certainly never thought of playing games, or reading books, or singing nursery songs, or anything else like that.

 

Read to them? Read what? The only picture books I remembered as a kid were Dr Suess, and I didn't much care for them, and neither did my kid. Picking random picture books from the library didn't work either. I need specific recommendations, a booklist.

 

Yes, you CAN screw up K-3. If you're not intentional about creating a rich environment, intentional about teaching numbers, intentional about finding the right educational videos that your kid likes and then turning it on, intentional about giving a correct answer when your child brings you a leaf and asks "what is this?" This stuff may be blindingly obvious to you, but other people need specific help to implement them.

 

I wasn't planning on homeschooling my own kids. There was a time when the oldest went to preschool (which he absolutely loved), then we moved, and he didn't have a preschool option. I should have done the games, the books, the cooking, etc. But I didn't know how. There were vague notions of literacy, language development, motor skills, and so on floating around my head, but I had no idea how to implement those ideas between the hours of 9am-12pm on a Tuesday. So we were lazy, really lazy, and the kid picked up some really bad mental and motor habits which I'm still trying to overcome and which are now really holding him back.

 

Your life, and your family, is not the same as everyone else's. After learning about the value of poetry (from SWB and others) I had to teach myself a few nursery songs so I could sing them to the baby. This is not something that I grew up with, this is not something I did naturally, I needed to be told about it, very specifically, and told the reasoning for it, and then learn how to do it myself. Vagueness about reading books and watching educational television is just utterly useless if you have no idea about what that means, specifically. So yes, I see why newbies want to know "what exactly did you do" and drop money on a complete k4 curriculum which lays it all out for them when they don't get an answer. Dismissing them with "oh, dearie, you're so wrong, you just wait and see" either reinforces how much they need to make up for, or convinces them that being lazy is okay. 

 

This reminds me of a thread from a year or so ago, where we discussed a blog post about "All the ways kids learn without school" or something like that. The author described the book nook with Sir Circumference and classic lit picture books, the art table, the tricked out jungle-gym in the backyard, the manipulatives, and so on, and then how great it was that her 5yo could learn without "school." Lol. Yeah, in that environment, sure. Too bad when my kid was five I didn't know about any of those things (or had the funds and resources to set it up if I did) nor how to use them. There was also the problem (huge problem, imo) that the blogger didn't state that her kids were 5 and under, and didn't leave room for people to think that her advice would be different if her kids were 10 and over.

 

"Just let them play" is fine advice if it is heard by people who already provide an enriched environment and are actively involved in doing things with their kids. But for other people, it's a recipe for understimulation, boredom, and laziness. Can you differentiate between these types of people when you give your advice? Or do you just assume that everyone is like you?

 

Reading your post was like a breath of fresh air!  But you're clouding the arguments with a bunch of common sense, so better stop.   :lol:

[DawnM]

Dobson was among the first to popularize homeschooling in Christian circles. Gothard was quick to latch onto it. Both saw homeschooling as an uniquely Christian mission and tied it closely to Christian parenting.

 

Yeah, I KNOW they're different people. But in real life the application of their ideas was incredibly similar (unless you went whole hog on Gothard, which lots of people didn't, or even were aware of). So similar, that my mother easily moved from books by one to the other and back. Lots of fellow homeschoolers I knew did. I was never aware (until I was an adult) that homeschooling could be separate from authoritarian parenting or the evangelical conservative sub-culture. It was a bubble, yes, but a very real one.

 

 

Are you talking about old Gothard, like back when he was considered more mainstream?  Because now I consider him very cultish.

 

Dobson talks about HSing, but he also has books and had speakers talk about public school.  He was the first one I heard talk about how over 80% of evangelicals send their kids to public school.  It wasn't a criticism, it was a "how to help them remain true to their faith" thing.   His own kids did attend private schools, but he didn't come across as anti-PS.   

 

I still see them as vastly different ideologically.  But they may not have been as different in the 80s.

[unsinkable]

The only reason I'm homeschooling is because a friend of my husband's highly recommended TWTM, then Crazypant's problems in school sent us scrambling for a solution. I was never anti-homeschooling, but I didn't see homeschooling outside the Dobson/Gothard bubble, or the BJU/Abeka at home model. WTM opened my horizons, and When Children Love to Learn helped me overcome my personal mental issues.

 

Sadly, my oldest does not like to read nearly as much as the Susan's would like. So I remediate, adapt, and change goals. I'm probably more confident about doing that because of my own experience.

 

I do browse the homeschooling books at the library on occasion. When I come across a book that recommends "oh, homeschooling older kids is easy, just put their textbooks on a desk in their room and tell them to come to you with any questions" (usually these books date to the 90's or earlier) I stick it back on the shelf and sorta push it in too far, so that it falls down in between the stacks. Ooops. Even if that method works out academically with the rare kid, it's a very lonely life, and it's pedagogical nonsense.

 

I'd like to read your blog. Could you PM me the link?

I know a circle of people who think it is admirable to hand a student "the box" from a popular curriculum provider and have the student "do it all on her own" at around 7th/8th grade. The thought was if you/your student could handle that, you did your job to prepare your student for high school.

 

Ugh.

[KungFuPanda]

I did a lot of skimming, but to go back to the original question, I think the inexperienced moms HAVE to do their own blogs. There just aren't too many veterans out there willing to go into serious, written detail about first grade math curriculum. I'm 13 years into this adventure now. If someone specifically asks me I will tell them what we did, but I'm not going to initiate that conversation and I'm certainly not going to blog about it. That's just not a topic that interests me like it once did.

 

As for the poster who mentioned needing detailed instruction for books and nursery rhymes, I've honestly never run across this type of homeschooler in all my years of doing this. I've met people who prefer upper-level schooling to the kiddie stuff, but nobody who was at a complete loss over what books to give their 5-year-old. Clearly they exist, but the percentages must be very low since people with no inkling what to do with a child don't generally choose to homeschool.

[SarahW]

Abba12 & Sarah, I think what you're missing is that there is a continuum between "do nothing until your kid is X" and "start rigorous academics early". Those who have said "watch that you don't burn out you/your kids", etc have many times been through that and seen the other side - the pre/teens who are so incredibly burnt out on school they no longer put forth *any* effort.

 

It may seem like no one is hearing what you're saying. That isn't the case at all. Your reactions to what others have said is why more experienced parents learn to just smile and nod and not say much. I'm certainly no expert; hell, at times, I doubt myself with my own kids. I *do* have experience trying to do to much too soon with my eldest and dealing with the fall-out. And that experience and the knowledge and wisdom I gained as a result of that experience is just as valid as your experiences.

 

If (general) you feel that you and your kids will do well with your hs plan, go forth and do it! Do what seems right and teach *your* kids. If you feel that you have something to say that will help another parent with their kids, please share it! Your thoughts and advice are wanted, needed, and valued. We are better and stronger when we share and listen to each other. And, as I said before, it's a two way street.

 

 

Okay, pushing early didn't work out with your kid the way you did it. I understand, I do. But for me to do anything with that information I need to know, as I said before, the why's and the but's. Otherwise, it's just about you and your own kid. Simply taking the attitude of "oh, you just wait and see how wrong you are" is rude and patronizing.

 

I'm especially bothered by this because when I was a teen my mother and I had a very poor relationship. Whenever I tried to talk about it to "trusted adults" I usually got the line "Haha, every teen girl doesn't like her mother, when you're thirty you'll just see that your mom was right and you were wrong." Maybe that's generally true, but for me it is not. Now that I'm past thirty I see how incredibly wrong my mother was (and I'm not alone in seeing that, and she herself has mentioned that "maybe she was too hard on us." Yeah, that's putting it mildly). So I have absolutely no trust in the "experience will teach you" line, since I've seen it used to dismiss very real problems. 

 

For the record, I don't see much "don't burn out your kids" talk. What I see (not so much on here, but especially on facebook, which has even more disattached discussions) is "oh, you're pulling your bored 2nd grader? Just bake cookies!" Why is the 2nd grader bored? Why cookies? When should you do more than make cookies? How about the rest of the day, should he just watch minecraft videos? It's bizarre. Are the people saying this going to look that person up again in a year or two, and ask about how their kid's education is progressing? Or is the asker supposed to divine that the answers they get are only temporary and representative of an overarching methodology?

 

Maybe I'm totally on the wrong homeschool FB groups, but the advice I see there is sometimes very frightening to me.

[KungFuPanda]

Another random thought on this is that "rigorous" means different things to different people. I'd probably advise "let them play" for K/1 and under, but I don't know anyone who literally did zero structured schooling at that age. I mean, I checked off all the subjects for my kids each day at that age, but it just didn't take that long. Was I rigorous because my 4-year-olds did Singapore Math and Phonics Pathways, or was I a slacker mom because their structured school day never lasted more than two hours until they were 8 or 9?

 

Honestly, I miss having the time and energy to obsess over every lesson. Having a high schooler and living with school days that really do take a legitimate "school day" to complete just doesn't leave TIME to obsess over every interesting pedagogical detail, much less blog about it. We're both fried by 3pm. I mean, that's why I hang out here and not the academic boards. I love it and I'd do it again, but I REALLY miss doing the work in a few hours and having the rest of the day for non-bookworky extras.

[Haiku]

Yes, you CAN screw up K-3. If you're not intentional about creating a rich environment, intentional about teaching numbers, intentional about finding the right educational videos that your kid likes and then turning it on, intentional about giving a correct answer when your child brings you a leaf and asks "what is this?" This stuff may be blindingly obvious to you, but other people need specific help to implement them.

 

I'm sorry you feel like you aren't being heard. But this snippet, and really your whole post, make it sound like you put an inordinate amount of pressure on yourself, and honestly, truly, I don't think most people do that or feel like they have to. I never worried that I had the right answer to all my kids' questions or the right books or videos. The only thing I was super intentional about was keeping my kids away from cruddy books (think Junie B. Jones, although I realize lots of people have varying opinions on what constitutes cruddy). I found a group of friends who planned to homeschool and then ... we just lived our lives. I didn't even do K with my daughter. We had just adopted my oldest, who was 11, and there was too much going on to "do school" with my K-aged daughter. I started her in first grade, and I don't regret it. The one thing I do regret is allowing my K-aged son to tag along for first grade. I didn't know it then, but he has dyslexia and some other processing disorders, and I wish I would have waited longer with him. I honestly wish I would have waited until he was seven to start academics with him! I think the extra maturity would have reduced frustration. He wasn't frustrated when he was very young, but by the time he was 8 I felt like he "should have" been at a certain level based on how long we had schooled, and he and I were both frustrated that he wasn't there. It took me a few years to realize I just needed to scale back and change method with him. Now he's in 7th and things are going much better.

 

I tell you all this so that you can see that really, truly, there isn't "a right way" that will work for everyone, and even when you think you're doing the best, it may turn out that you wish things had gone differently. That's just part of life. If someone asks me for advice, I can't give them advice outside my sphere of experience. I couldn't ever give advice on a K-4 program or how to be really intentional about reading books to kids because, although I read my kids a ton of books, we just picked what looked interesting off the library shelves. We can only talk about what we did and how it did (or didn't) work. If you are looking for people to give you a detailed curriculum plan for a K child, down to exactly what books to read and how to describe a leaf, I think you will find those people few and far between, because I don't think (in my experience, at least) most people do it that way. Most people are more relaxed when their kids are young, and it works for them (and their kids).

 

If pressed for the above advice, the best I could offer is "There are tons of booklists online. Just google for something you think looks good." If someone wanted a K math curriculum they felt was rigorous and had lots of worksheets, I'd be at a loss and probably say something like, "I really don't think you need to push rigorous math in K." Again, my experience is that it wasn't necessary, and I've been around enough homeschoolers in my 9 years of homeschooling to witness that driving hard in the younger years often (not always) has negative effects on older kids. I have to be honest about my experiences and observations. I can't just humor people.

 

I'm very sorry that you feel like you screwed things up with your kid. I'd imagine that you are being harsher on yourself than necessary. 

[OnMyOwn]

I've found some helpful tips about getting homeschooling done from moms with only littles. The best scheduling tips I've used came from moms with kids the same ages as mine. They are in the trenches, had a light bulb moment, shared it on their blog, and helped me out. I didn't get much help from "older" moms who wrote books on managing homeschooling and homemaking for large families, because those moms had been getting help from their older kids for so long that they forgot what it was like to have no kids over the age of seven. I like to listen homeschool moms at different stages of their journey, because often their light bulb moments are just what I needed to know. I don't think anyone should feel discouraged from sharing what they've found is working.

 

That said, I do give more weight to the opinions of people who have been homeschooled and to those who teach college students, and who actually study education and teaching. Just a personal preference. If they had six kids in six years like I did, I would probably pay them to talk to me. Haha

This really resonates with me. I always looked to and continue to look to moms who are in the same stage of homeschooling that I am because they tend to have the most relevant info for me. Likewise, I used to be a great resource for getting info about elementary and middle school programs because I loved to research different options and used a lot of things that I was very happy with. I couldn't/wouldn't tell someone that they must use a certain program, but I knew enough about what was out there to be able to hold a helpful discussion.

 

Now, in high school, I outsource so much that, sadly, I don't have much to contribute to others that are in this stage unless they want a review of an online class one of my kids is taking, and I haven't kept up with the latest and greatest offerings for the younger grades.

[8circles]

I'm so confused by some of these posts.  They don't seem to have anything to do with the OP - which happens, yes, but there doesn't seem to be any connection.  It's as if the experienced homeschoolers are being held responsible for new homeschoolers who don't know basics about parenting.

 

You're not listening to Abba12 and I at all.

 

If that's what you're telling newbies, then it's obvious to me why they don't listen. You seem to think doing those things is easy and obvious. It's not, not to everyone. Teach them to read, teach them math, teach them about trees? How, pray tell, does one do that?  

 

Play with Grandma? Wow, my time with my grandmother consisted mostly of watching developmentally inappropriate and unethical episodes of Rosanne. She certainly never thought of playing games, or reading books, or singing nursery songs, or anything else like that.

 

Read to them? Read what? The only picture books I remembered as a kid were Dr Suess, and I didn't much care for them, and neither did my kid. Picking random picture books from the library didn't work either. I need specific recommendations, a booklist.

 

Yes, you CAN screw up K-3. If you're not intentional about creating a rich environment, intentional about teaching numbers, intentional about finding the right educational videos that your kid likes and then turning it on, intentional about giving a correct answer when your child brings you a leaf and asks "what is this?" This stuff may be blindingly obvious to you, but other people need specific help to implement them.

 

I wasn't planning on homeschooling my own kids. There was a time when the oldest went to preschool (which he absolutely loved), then we moved, and he didn't have a preschool option. I should have done the games, the books, the cooking, etc. But I didn't know how. There were vague notions of literacy, language development, motor skills, and so on floating around my head, but I had no idea how to implement those ideas between the hours of 9am-12pm on a Tuesday. So we were lazy, really lazy, and the kid picked up some really bad mental and motor habits which I'm still trying to overcome and which are now really holding him back.

 

Your life, and your family, is not the same as everyone else's. After learning about the value of poetry (from SWB and others) I had to teach myself a few nursery songs so I could sing them to the baby. This is not something that I grew up with, this is not something I did naturally, I needed to be told about it, very specifically, and told the reasoning for it, and then learn how to do it myself. Vagueness about reading books and watching educational television is just utterly useless if you have no idea about what that means, specifically. So yes, I see why newbies want to know "what exactly did you do" and drop money on a complete k4 curriculum which lays it all out for them when they don't get an answer. Dismissing them with "oh, dearie, you're so wrong, you just wait and see" either reinforces how much they need to make up for, or convinces them that being lazy is okay. 

 

This reminds me of a thread from a year or so ago, where we discussed a blog post about "All the ways kids learn without school" or something like that. The author described the book nook with Sir Circumference and classic lit picture books, the art table, the tricked out jungle-gym in the backyard, the manipulatives, and so on, and then how great it was that her 5yo could learn without "school." Lol. Yeah, in that environment, sure. Too bad when my kid was five I didn't know about any of those things (or had the funds and resources to set it up if I did) nor how to use them. There was also the problem (huge problem, imo) that the blogger didn't state that her kids were 5 and under, and didn't leave room for people to think that her advice would be different if her kids were 10 and over.

 

"Just let them play" is fine advice if it is heard by people who already provide an enriched environment and are actively involved in doing things with their kids. But for other people, it's a recipe for understimulation, boredom, and laziness. Can you differentiate between these types of people when you give your advice? Or do you just assume that everyone is like you?

 

Look, I didn't have a clue how to be a parent when I had kids.  My parents were very neglectful and spent almost 0 time with me.  I didn't know how to even just *be* with my kids, let alone interract with books or toys or teach them anything remotely academic.  But that doesn't have anything to do with homeschooling - it is a problem no matter how your children are schooled.  I was able to recognize that I was lacking skills & sought out people to help me learn them - mainly through the MOPS group at my church & some good friends with kids 5+ years older than mine.  I agree that that information is CRITICAL to get if you don't have it.  It is nothing short of neglect IMO if you don't.  

 

But how is anyone to know that THAT is the information you need when you ask about homeschooling elementary?  It has finally come out in this thread, that THAT basic parenting skills is really what you are wanting - but why should that be assumed?  It isn't "homeschooling", even though it is probably not possible to homeschool without it.

 

Okay, pushing early didn't work out with your kid the way you did it. I understand, I do. But for me to do anything with that information I need to know, as I said before, the why's and the but's. Otherwise, it's just about you and your own kid. Simply taking the attitude of "oh, you just wait and see how wrong you are" is rude and patronizing.

 

I'm especially bothered by this because when I was a teen my mother and I had a very poor relationship. Whenever I tried to talk about it to "trusted adults" I usually got the line "Haha, every teen girl doesn't like her mother, when you're thirty you'll just see that your mom was right and you were wrong." Maybe that's generally true, but for me it is not. Now that I'm past thirty I see how incredibly wrong my mother was (and I'm not alone in seeing that, and she herself has mentioned that "maybe she was too hard on us." Yeah, that's putting it mildly). So I have absolutely no trust in the "experience will teach you" line, since I've seen it used to dismiss very real problems. 

 

For the record, I don't see much "don't burn out your kids" talk. What I see (not so much on here, but especially on facebook, which has even more disattached discussions) is "oh, you're pulling your bored 2nd grader? Just bake cookies!" Why is the 2nd grader bored? Why cookies? When should you do more than make cookies? How about the rest of the day, should he just watch minecraft videos? It's bizarre. Are the people saying this going to look that person up again in a year or two, and ask about how their kid's education is progressing? Or is the asker supposed to divine that the answers they get are only temporary and representative of an overarching methodology?

 

Maybe I'm totally on the wrong homeschool FB groups, but the advice I see there is sometimes very frightening to me.

 

I understand and agree with much of what you're saying here - in all your posts.  But the big disagreement I have is that you're placing the responsibility at the feet of veteran homeschoolers - it isn't their responsibility to figure out if you are a decent parent.  If you are asking about homeschooling advice but it turns out you really need parenting advice, that isn't the advice-giver's fault.  I get that you often don't know what you don't know, but it doesn't make it someone else's job to figure out.  I think it's safe to say that shutting down the conversation from either end probably isn't a great idea.

[Murphy101]

You're not listening to Abba12 and I at all.

 

If that's what you're telling newbies, then it's obvious to me why they don't listen. You seem to think doing those things is easy and obvious. It's not, not to everyone. Teach them to read, teach them math, teach them about trees? How, pray tell, does one do that?

 

I do not presume everyone is like me. Because I was a lot like you when I started out. My children have almost zero contact with my side of the family. Dh is an only child whose parents have contact with us roughly 4-6 times a year, mostly holidays with polite conversation.

 

I did not grow up in the so called typical pop culture. There were no bedtime stories in my home, no Disney movies, or sports and music or art lessons for me. No Christmas plays. Not very many toys. Heck. I didn't have a bed until around 4th grade. Just a pallet on the floor. My parents were very uneducated in a socioeconomic cultural and academic sense as neither of them had higher than an 8th grade education. Which I highly suspect is the reason that although I went to what was then considered the rich kid school district, I was mostly written off by my educators. Which was fine by me at the time as long as I had free access to their library.

 

That said... What you are referencing is NOT about education per se.

 

It's about deciding what kind of family environment you want to create in your home.

 

My children have always had bedtime stories. Bc I had in my mind that idyllic standard way before I started home schooling.

 

I am a book nut, so my home, even that tiny 1000 sq ft with 10 of us house, has always had at least one large bookcase with at least one shelf of books for the kids.

 

Due to finance and circumstance, I had to insist my kids play outside a lot and if they couldn't do it in my backyard, we had to go to parks and zoos. Turns out though it seemed a pitb at the time, it was the best thing for them. Same goes for not having the money to buy a lot of baby containers or the space to put them and not being able to stand hearing a baby cry. Turns out those fancy child psychology books in college say holding your young ones a lot and keeping them within eye sight while also letting them freely explore is considered a really smart thing to do. There I was doing it because I can't stand the sound of crying babies and didn't have the space/$ for playpen and such. So I either held them or layed them in the floor. That's it.

 

There's some things I would do different with my young older ones that I do in fact do differently with their younger siblings.

 

I never made time for art. I didn't think it was all that important. Now I view it as more foundational than phonics and math. Rarely does a day go by without some kind of art lesson or activity.

 

Buying a set of Wee Sing books and CDs was a great investment with my preschoolers. All those old hand miming songs and nursery rhymes I never learned.

 

They NEED to go play outside every day possible. In the summer, I wake up early and we have outside time until lunch. By then they are ready sit down and it's too hot to play outside anyways.

In the winter, we get the school stuff done in the morning and then play outside during the warmest part of the day. Let them play in a downpour of rain. At least once. It's like a surprise snow day. They will remember those days all their lives.

 

I sat them down for too long and too intensely. It wasn't the doing of the maths and writing. It was how I did it. Now my rule of thumb is to always ALWAYS leave them wanting more. We will eagerly sit down for school work and I will do just enough that they are bright eyed and stop right before I think they are about ready to be done. Yes. I have actually refused to do another page of school work with my kids. Always leave them wanting more.

 

Incorporating traditions is hard when you don't grow up with them. But try. If you are religious, get involved in your faith community. If you aren't, you'll have to figure out something else. Traditions are a lot of work, but they also build community connections and memories. The best ones are NOT the Martha Stewart level of effort, so don't let those bloggers or whatever keep you from doing something. Our gingerbread houses don't look like Disney castle replicas and yet it's a highlight of our holidays.

 

So there. I'm not saying don't sweat it. Of course we all sweat parenting. I'm saying people are sweating the wrong things.

 

Potty training? Don't care. I don't do it. And yet all of my children have figured out the toilet and underwear.

 

Teaching reading? Don't care. There's a number of programs out there. If they are ready it clicks. If it doesn't click by age 9, I get concerned. That's right. Age 9. You cannot tell by age 11 which of my kids were fluent readers at age 4 and which were not fluent until almost age 10. It's not about smarts. It's just about development. (And there are LOTS of people who disagree with me and I don't care. My kids are fine and if they weren't I'd seek help for them.) And it's had zero baring on their college prospects.

 

House a mess. Well fix that if it bothers you. And if it bothers you enough, I suspect you will figure it out and if it doesn't then I question how bothered you really are by it.

 

Yes, you can screw up the younger years. But it's a lot harder than people think. And it is not permanent. You can adjust at any time. There is some debate about closing windows of development, but there's no argument that it is not a definitive line in the sand where oh my god they are 10 or whatever now so you are just screwed and there's no way to make up for it.

 

Accept you will not do it all. When people ask me how I do it all, I tell them I don't and have no desire to do so. And that's the truth.

 

Sleep when you can. Eat as best you can. Greet the day with as much enthusiasm as you can muster. Enthusiasm teaches more than any curriculum will. I do recommend some curriculum for k-3 on my blog though.

 

I do listen to my older kids about their opinions of home schooling. They will tell me I need to do or not do this or that with their younger siblings. I do not discard it out of hand. But I do make note that they might not be at a place to see my reasoning. More often than not, my older kids comment that my younger kids have it way better than they did and are a bit jealous of that. I just tell them I'm sorry but they were the only Guinea pigs I had to learn from and did the best I could.

 

Disclaimer: All references to 'you' refer to the general public at large. I am not an expert, nor do I ever want to play one in any media format. These are the opinions based on personal experience of me, myself, and I. Take what works and leave the rest. Typos are likely the result of lack of proper coffee consumption and the fact that a 4 yr old and a rabbit are playing together under the electric blanket draped over my feet and the leg rest of the recliner. He is adorably distracting. He and the rabbit are in a cave in the woods under my chair and he is having quite the cute dialog. He will do no reading or math today. We might color and cut and paste for about 20 minutes. Eventually. Maybe.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Murphy101

[Dmmetler]

It also can be that "let them play" means-sure, go ahead and teach, but recognize that if a 5 yr old isn't enjoying it, they aren't learning. As a music person, I was inspired greatly by Suzuki, where even kids at age 3-4 practice several times a day, but largely see it as playing with their parent. When I pulled my bored, frustrated kid from kindergarten at age 5, she woke me up, math book in hand, ready to start playing school at 6:15 the next morning. She wanted to go to school and do school. She just wanted the school in Magic School Bus books.

 

I don't think she realized that it wasn't 100% play until she reached about 4th grade content :). From her point of view, she had mommy to herself for hours to "play school" every day. Usually accompanied by a bunch of stuffed animals and dolls.

 

Even now, she started a new unit yesterday-one based on a college 4000 level Entomology class. She spent most of the day finding dead bugs in the spider webs on the porch (and, incidentally, knocking them down and cleaning for me :) ), sketching them with the help of a magnifying glass and microscope, and using dichotomous keys to identify them and place them in appropriate groups. From her POV, that's playing. From my point of view, it's going on the transcript as part of a Zoology credit.

 

Let them play doesn't mean don't do academics-it means being aware that play is the child's work, and that if you can structure academics so a child can play, they learn more.

 

And I do think it's really easy for all that intentional stuff to blur into the background when you look back and remember the fun, while forgetting just how intentional the learning was. Especially when you get to the stage where it is much, much harder to play.

Edited January 5, 2016 by dmmetler