Sort of afraid to post... but, who was right... me or crossing guard?

[staceyobu]

I got yelled at by a crossing guard, and I'm wondering if I actually broke the law, just made her nervous, or if I was in the right.

 

I was attempting to make a left hand turn from a small street onto a major street. This is a very short light because the major street gets the long green. There is no green turn signal. You get a green light to go straight or turn left. Children were crossing the major street (walking along the small street).

 

The light turned green and I pulled straight into the intersection. My thinking was that if I waited for children to cross completely, the light would be red again. And then more kids would come. And then I would be stuck. And repeat. My thinking was to get into intersection and even if the light turned red, I could legally turn because I was in the intersection.

 

I pulled out straight and sat waiting for kids to cross. A crossing guard went crazy. Screaming at me, "You are supposed to wait!!! What are you doing!! Wait!! Stop!!!" Was shaking her sign at me. Now, I would have gone straight with no thought. So, was it wrong for me to pull out and stop?

 

The kids were completely crossed and she was still standing in the intersection screaming at me while I sat there baffled. And, there was nothing I could do at that point. A car had already pulled up behind me. I couldn't back up.

 

Did I break the law? Is this a school bus, everyone stops sort of situation? I felt really bad. I run a lot and pedestrian safety is important to me.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The crossing guard was right.  You wait for there to be no children.  Pedestrians get the right of way.  And esp. school children get the right of way.  Yes, it is inconvenient.  But it is safer for the children. 

[staceyobu]

The crossing guard was right.  You wait for there to be no children.  Pedestrians get the right of way.  And esp. school children get the right of way.  Yes, it is inconvenient.  But it is safer for the children.

Would this also apply to driving parallel with children? All intersections completely stopped while children are crossing?

[Guest]

I'm not sure about your state laws but that would be a moving violation here because there are no left turns on red unless you are completing a maneuver begun while you had legal right of way. Better to pull into the intersection and wait there until it is clear, even if you miss the light. If you are stuck in the intersection you have the right of way regardless of the color of the signal.

 

ETA - I misunderstood your initial post - you pulled forward and just waited for them to cross before turning? She was in the wrong, not you.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Arctic Mama

[staceyobu]

ditto post.

Edited December 10, 2015 by staceyobu

[Gil]

The crossing guard was right. No matter how inconvenient, you, as a motorist, can't go when there are peds (especially school kids) in the intersection.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Would this also apply to driving parallel with children? All intersections completely stopped while children are crossing?

 

Maybe I misread?  I thought you were crossing in front of the children?  I think you can go parallel but I sure would be going slowly. 

[Eagle]

Where I am from what you did was exactly what you should do. You pull straight forward and stop until the crosswalk on the left is clear. She probably assumed you were trying to turn immediately while the children were in the crosswalk. At the end when she wouldn't get out of the crosswalk I would have opened my window and informed her that I was pulling into the intersection, not turning.

[staceyobu]

Blech... I keep posting without meaning to.

Edited December 10, 2015 by staceyobu

[staceyobu]

Can I diagram this?

 

kid here

 

c

r

o

s

s

i....................... :)

n

g

 

h

e

r

e

I am where these XXXXX are. Turning left into children. But I just pulled straight to where smile is.

Edited December 10, 2015 by staceyobu

[Night Elf]

I thought if you sat in an intersection and turned after the light turned red, that it was a red light violation. Obviously people do it all the time, but I thought it was against the law.

 

Although I do agree with the crossing guard. You should have waited. I'm sorry.

[Guest]

Your smily face is perfectly legal, so long as you weren't impeding oncoming traffic turning off the road and you were waiting for the pedestrians to clear.

[staceyobu]

I thought if you sat in an intersection and turned after the light turned red, that it was a red light violation. Obviously people do it all the time, but I thought it was against the law.

 

Although I do agree with the crossing guard. You should have waited. I'm sorry.

I know at least in my state as long as you enter an intersection on green, you can turn after it is red. That part I'm confident is legal. I'm not confident if it is okay to enter an intersection with an intent to turn left if kids are in intersection. But, I'm fairly confident I could have proceeded parallel with kids. So, I would think pulling up and stopping parallel with kids would then have to be legal? But, I'm confused now.

 

This followed a very disgruntling post office trip with too many kids in tow, which followed a school day that I didn't feel very good and the children had no sympathy. Bah humbug. I want to go eat some cookies instead of cooking dinner.

[MASHomeschooler]

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding the situation. I would have done exactly as you did, and depending on my state of mind may have rolled down the window and quickly yelled back, "I was waiting in the intersection until they all crossed!" at the end.

[Mimm]

Can I diagram this?

 

kid here

 

c

r

o

s

s

i....................... :)

n

g

 

h

e

r

e

I am where these XXXXX are. Turning left into children. But I just pulled straight to where smile is.

 

In this case, I don't see what the big deal is at all and I think the crossing guard is unprofessional and weird for freaking out so much. What is her issue?

[Guest]

I know at least in my state as long as you enter an intersection on green, you can turn after it is red. That part I'm confident is legal. I'm not confident if it is okay to enter an intersection with an intent to turn left if kids are in intersection. But, I'm fairly confident I could have proceeded parallel with kids. So, I would think pulling up and stopping parallel with kids would then have to be legal? But, I'm confused now.

 

This followed a very disgruntling post office trip with too many kids in tow, which followed a school day that I didn't feel very good and the children had no sympathy. Bah humbug. I want to go eat some cookies instead of cooking dinner.

Don't you just hate how those days pile up on themselves in a load of poo? When it rains it pours :D

[Mothersweets]

I would have done exactly what you did. I think the crossing guard probably assumed you were going to be a flake and turn right into the kids using the crosswalk.

 

Sorry she yelled at you. How is a driver supposed to get onto the other street if they don't pull out into the intersection?

[staceyobu]

I thought if you sat in an intersection and turned after the light turned red, that it was a red light violation. Obviously people do it all the time, but I thought it was against the law.

 

Although I do agree with the crossing guard. You should have waited. I'm sorry.

So, all traffic should be stopped going all directions? Like with a school bus?

[Bluegoat]

Here what you did would be fine, you are supposed to enter the intersection to turn left as soon as the light changes, and then wait untill the cross-walk and oncoming traffic are cleared to make the turn.

[Mimm]

So, all traffic should be stopped going all directions? Like with a school bus?

 

Not here so far as I know. Everyone crosses parallel to kids crossing without crossing guards flipping out.

[Guest]

Can I diagram this?

 

kid here

 

c

r

o

s

s

i....................... :)

n

g

 

h

e

r

e

I am where these XXXXX are. Turning left into children. But I just pulled straight to where smile is.

I think I would have done what you did on the same thinking. I would not intend to turn until I had a crossing clear of pedestrians (esp. Children), but I understand the short lights and if you don't proceed, you get stuck for a few cycles.

 

I do completely and totally understand how unnerving it is when you were trying to do what seemed logical to you, but it was seen differently. I had something similar where I went around a schoolbus that had yellow flashers on. I thought the bus was slowing to turn right up a side street and so the yellow flashers went on; I passed around the bus on its left. But The bus actually stopped and as I passed it, the RED flashers came on and I could see the bus driver going nuts in the seat because I went around a stopping bus. I was NOT trying to whip around a schoolbus, KWIM? I innocently thought the lights were on because the bus was preparing to turn up the little street.

 

I still feel bad when I think about that.

[Sun]

I thought if you sat in an intersection and turned after the light turned red, that it was a red light violation. Obviously people do it all the time, but I thought it was against the law.

 

Although I do agree with the crossing guard. You should have waited. I'm sorry.

 

How on earth would anyone ever be able to turn left at most intersections in a city if one were not supposed to sit in the intersection and wait for the light to change to turn?

[Miss Tick]

She was wrong, and I bet the person you had to deal with at the post office was wrong, too!

[staceyobu]

She was wrong, and I bet the person you had to deal with at the post office was wrong, too!

Would you like to be my new best friend, lol?!

[Kathryn]

You were right.

[Catwoman]

How on earth would anyone ever be able to turn left at most intersections in a city if one were not supposed to sit in the intersection and wait for the light to change to turn?

That's what I was thinking, as well. It's not like Stacey was in the middle of the crosswalk, blocking the children.

 

It's nice that the crossing guard was concerned about the children, but it sounds like she went way overboard.

[melbotoast]

I would do that.

[TammyS]

I think the problem is that there shouldn't be a crossing guard where there is a light.  That is two different sets of instructions to follow, and hence confusing.  Since there is light, there should be a walk/don't walk sign for pedestrians that are timed to walk them through while everyone is on red.

[Bluegoat]

I thought if you sat in an intersection and turned after the light turned red, that it was a red light violation. Obviously people do it all the time, but I thought it was against the law.

 

Although I do agree with the crossing guard. You should have waited. I'm sorry.

If you have actually entered the intersection, and you don't have a chance to make the turn while the light is green or yellow, then you will stop all the traffic going in the opposit direction when they have the green.

 

It should be the case that when you get the yellow, the pedestrians will have cleared/will not start walking, and the through traffic will stop, so whoever is in the intersection can turn before it turns red.  So the real issue is people trying to rush through the yellow light, which leaves the person trying to turn left stuck out there.

[Guest]

I think the problem is that there shouldn't be a crossing guard where there is a light. That is two different sets of instructions to follow, and hence confusing. Since there is light, there should be a walk/don't walk sign for pedestrians that are timed to walk them through while everyone is on red.

That's an interesting thought. It does seem like someone just making sure the smallest kids wait until the wall sign would be sufficient. The only crossing guards around here are at four way stops and yields.

[staceyobu]

I think the problem is that there shouldn't be a crossing guard where there is a light.  That is two different sets of instructions to follow, and hence confusing.  Since there is light, there should be a walk/don't walk sign for pedestrians that are timed to walk them through while everyone is on red.

I'm also a bit confused by this. It's at a middle school, so I would think kids would be able to follow the light. But, I have no idea what may have led up to the decision to put a crossing guard there.

[Tanaqui]

Traffic laws vary so much from location to location. I know that in NYC you aren't allowed to turn right on red unless it's marked, but that's legal in many places, so drivers from elsewhere sometimes make that mistake. (We've now exhausted my knowledge of the traffic code.)

 

So it's hard for us to say definitively "you were right" or "you were wrong" in legal terms. If you were being conscientious and were not actually endangering the pedestrians nor clearly trying to "encourage" them to get off the road, then I think you're morally in the clear, though... at least, you are if I'm understanding your comments correctly.

[MooCow]

Seems to me you need a better crossing guard. We have one who rocks, she not only keeps the kids safe, she also keeps traffic moving safely. When she's not there, it's a huge traffic nightmare

[Joker]

Mine started ps in middle school and had crossing guards at a large intersection. When kids were crossing, no cars were allowed to move.

 

 

Also, I'm surprised how many pull out into the intersection waiting to turn. It's something dh and I never do and we don't have trouble eventually turning (never been honked at for not doing so either).

[milovany]

My older teens who have gone through drivers ed tell me that they're taught it's wrong to pull into and sit in an intersection waiting to turn left.  They were told you're supposed to wait back where you were and only go forward if you can keep going to complete the left turn (i.e., no cars -- or children -- in the way).  If the light turns, tough. You wait for the next one. That said, no one (or rare is the person) who actually does that.  Most of us pull into the intersection as you did, wait, and then go when we can, even if that means the light is turning yellow and is even red when we clear the intersection after our turn.  The crossing guard might be of the drivers ed position (and may have been taught that at the school for which she's working) so in that case, she may have been convinced she was right (and she may have been).  But honestly, I still say you did fine as long as you slowly pulled forward and didn't veer/aim left at all while you waited. 

Edited December 11, 2015 by milovany

[Bluegoat]

hen I was in drivers ed, we were taught pull out, but don't turn your wheels - if you do, and someone rear-ends you, you'll be pushed into the path of the oncoming traffic or the pedestrians.

[Katy]

In high school I once had a drivers ed teacher yell at me for not doing what you did.  On that basis, I think she was wrong.

[Pawz4me]

Crossing guard needs training. Students arent supposed to cross continually and block the drivers from turning.

 

Ditto.

 

I think I would have done the exact same thing you did.  IMO the guard was wrong and way out of line.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Pawz4me

[KungFuPanda]

The crossing guard sounds like she got stressed for no good reason. I see that exact scenario here every day. The guard usually gets the kids across, then makes sure the traffic remains stopped while waving the car in the intersection through. Here the guards are posted at streets with traffic lights and crosswalks just to keep the kids safe and the traffic moving. Otherwise there's be a people stuck in the elementary carpool line forever. They seem to have traffic cop skills and sometimes the cops take a shift.

 

In my neighborhood, your pulling forward leaves space for cars behind you to go around you and drive straight through the intersection. This keeps traffic flowing.

[KungFuPanda]

Mine started ps in middle school and had crossing guards at a large intersection. When kids were crossing, no cars were allowed to move.

 

 

Also, I'm surprised how many pull out into the intersection waiting to turn. It's something dh and I never do and we don't have trouble eventually turning (never been honked at for not doing so either).

I've lived in places where it was never necessary to pull into the intersection to make a left turn. Later, in much more urban places, I've encountered intersections where the traffic was so constant and dense that pulling into the intersection, and turning at that moment where yellow meets red, was your ONLY chance to get through and only ONE car gets through per light. These are places that NEED left turn lights but inexplicably don't have them yet.

[Joker]

I've lived in places where it was never necessary to pull into the intersection to make a left turn. Later, in much more urban places, I've encountered intersections where the traffic was so constant and dense that pulling into the intersection, and turning at that moment where yellow meets red, was your ONLY chance to get through and only ONE car gets through per light. These are places that NEED left turn lights but inexplicably don't have them yet.

I've lived years in San Diego and Dallas and have done a lot of driving in other major cities. I still don't pull out into the intersection. Maybe I've just always been lucky.

[Tsuga]

The crossing guard was right. You wait for there to be no children. Pedestrians get the right of way. And esp. school children get the right of way. Yes, it is inconvenient. But it is safer for the children.

Yes. There are some streets you cannot even really drive on in my neighborhood for this reason. (Eta I mean during school hours.)

 

Sorry OP. I hope you can find a road with a better light. My route to work leaves me at the mercy of a turn like this, but no kids. It is very irritating but c'est la vie.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Tsuga

[SparklyUnicorn]

crossing guard was right

 

 

[TeenagerMom]

Crossing guard was right.  You don't move as long as kids are in the intersection, even if you are legally in the right.  What if a child had made a break for it & tried to run across the road in the other direction and you accidentally hit them?

 

Sorry, but it's a subject I'm passionate about.  A driver who did not yield to my 23 year old sister in a crosswalk hit & killed her going about 30 miles an hour.  She was 5'9" and 130 lbs.  Imagine what a car going that speed could do to a child.

[Guest]

I've lived in places where it was never necessary to pull into the intersection to make a left turn. Later, in much more urban places, I've encountered intersections where the traffic was so constant and dense that pulling into the intersection, and turning at that moment where yellow meets red, was your ONLY chance to get through and only ONE car gets through per light. These are places that NEED left turn lights but inexplicably don't have them yet.

Yes, and meanwhile, it also sucks to be the car behind the car that wants to turn left but will not move forward into the intersection! This scenario just happened to me a couple of weeks ago. I was stuck at a light through three cycles for this reason. The car in front of me remained behind the line, waiting to turn left on a yield, but it was rush hour traffic and there IS no break in the traffic until the light turns yellow-to-red.

[ThisIsTheDay]

Would this also apply to driving parallel with children? All intersections completely stopped while children are crossing?

 

Actually, yes, but the ONLY way I know this is that I lived near a similar intersection and often had to wait behind the light to turn left while children crossed the other side of the intersection across from me.

 

I had a similar experience with a cop, not at a crosswalk, but on an island on a divided road.  He was standing there, waving me past.  How was I to know he was waving me ON?  I slowed down, and he started screaming at me, then made me stop and screamed at me more that I should have kept going.  If he'd just kept his hand down to begin with, I would have driven normally, like he wanted me to. 

 

It's hard to figure out what other people are thinking. She didn't have to scream at you. 

:grouphug:

[staceyobu]

Crossing guard was right.  You don't move as long as kids are in the intersection, even if you are legally in the right.  What if a child had made a break for it & tried to run across the road in the other direction and you accidentally hit them?

 

Sorry, but it's a subject I'm passionate about.  A driver who did not yield to my 23 year old sister in a crosswalk hit & killed her going about 30 miles an hour.  She was 5'9" and 130 lbs.  Imagine what a car going that speed could do to a child.

So, this is a school bus situation then?

 

No moving in any direction if a child is in a cross walk?

 

The odd thing is, I'm pretty confident people on the busier road would not notice if children were crossing the smaller road and stop. Which makes me think I must have been in the right because traffic would be backed up for ages if that were the case.

Edited December 11, 2015 by staceyobu

[Tap]

In the two states I have had a drivers license in, you aren't supposed to enter an intersection unless you can clear the intersection.  So, if you know ahead of time that you are going to have to stop in the intersection, you are not supposed to enter it.  This would be an obvious example of this.  You saw the kids. Their light to cross would happen at the same time your light would turn green.  You have to yield to any pedestrian that is crossing within a marked crossing or with a crossing guard. Since you presumably know their light would turn green, and there were children present, you must not enter the intersection until you know you can clear it completely.  

 

Our area has lots of medians to control where people can turn into various lanes. Often, the safest course of action would have been to turn right, go around the block or turn around in a public parking lot, and then continue in the direction you needed to go. 

 

The crossing guard was correct in my understanding of the situation.....in my state.

 

 

 

[mom2scouts]

http://drivinginstructorblog.com/q-should-i-pull-into-the-intersection-when-im-turning-left/

 

According to this driver ed blog, you were right.

 

This is what my state law says and it also shows that you were right: "One may advance into the intersection as a prelude to turning, provided that no other traffic control signals prohibit this action."

[staceyobu]

In the two states I have had a drivers license in, you aren't supposed to enter an intersection unless you can clear the intersection.  So, if you know ahead of time that you are going to have to stop in the intersection, you are not supposed to enter it.  This would be an obvious example of this.  You saw the kids. Their light to cross would happen at the same time your light would turn green.  You have to yield to any pedestrian that is crossing within a marked crossing or with a crossing guard. Since you presumably know their light would turn green, and there were children present, you must not enter the intersection until you know you can clear it completely.  

 

Our area has lots of medians to control where people can turn into various lanes. Often, the safest course of action would have been to turn right, go around the block or turn around in a public parking lot, and then continue in the direction you needed to go. 

 

The crossing guard was correct in my understanding of the situation.....in my state.

I know I can legally enter an intersection and stop here to turn left. You just have to be in the intersection before it is red.