Came here, as I thought this news would be HUGE! Pope related

[Jasperstone]

So this isn't talk of the town???

 

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/sep/23/andrew-napolitano-is-pope-francis-a-false-prophet/

 

Another article-

 

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/sep/22/george-will-pope-francis-is-a-false-prophet/

 

 

Fox News Columnist Goes Off The Rails, Links Pope Francis to Satan

 

 

 

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2015/09/24/1424435/-Fox-News-Columnist-Goes-Off-The-Rails-Links-Pope-Francis-to-Satantp://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/09/24/false-prophet-why-pope-francis-has-disappointed-many-roman-catholics.html

[Jasperstone]

I'm wondering if those guys will lose their jobs after coming out and saying that???

[Tanaqui]

People hardly ever lose their jobs at Fox News for lacking journalistic integrity (or integrity of any other form).

[Jasperstone]

What about the Washington Post? Is it not more conservative?

 

Sorry, but I'm not really that familiar with your mainstream media etc...

[LucyStoner]

The Washington Times =\= The Washington Post.

[Jasperstone]

The Washington Times =\= The Washington Post.

Ahhh, ok!

[SemiSweet]

I doubt anyone will lose their jobs, but I got an error on the last link. I'm not surprised in the least, honestly.

[Jasperstone]

I zoned out during the video.

 

Maybe I can get offended tomorrow. ;)

What video? Sorry lost me there. :-)

[Jean in Newcastle]

You realize that these kinds of opinions have been around for centuries, right, and have been applied to many popes and many other leaders?  They aren't news.  This is on the commentary page by a guest commentator.  So I am a bit confused by your title, no matter what your opinion might be on his role or his message.  

[Jasperstone]

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2015/09/24/1424435/-Fox-News-Columnist-Goes-Off-The-Rails-Links-Pope-Francis-to-Satan

 

Try the above link.

 

What part aren't you surprised at?

 

 

 

 

 

I doubt anyone will lose their jobs, but I got an error on the last link. I'm not surprised in the least, honestly.

[Jasperstone]

Wow, when I Google the above link again, this forum thread came up fourth down the page.

[Jasperstone]

You realize that these kinds of opinions have been around for centuries, right, and have been applied to many popes and many other leaders? They aren't news. This is on the commentary page by a guest commentator. So I am a bit confused by your title, no matter what your opinion might be on his role or his message.

I just thought it was weird that it was broadcasted like that without much backlash.

[LucyStoner]

Ahhh, ok!

The Washington Times was founded by a cult leader who claimed to be the Messiah. He is dead but the company still owns the paper.

[SemiSweet]

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2015/09/24/1424435/-Fox-News-Columnist-Goes-Off-The-Rails-Links-Pope-Francis-to-Satan

 

Try the above link.

 

What part aren't you surprised at?

 

 

This pope has many views that aren't in line with conservative Christianity in the U.S. Calling him satan and anti-Christ is hardly surprising, given our political climate, and his tendency to talk about issues that are often associated with liberals.

[Jasperstone]

The Washington Times was founded by a cult leader who claimed to be the Messiah. He is dead but the company still owns the paper.

That's how little I know about your media. Thanks!

[Jean in Newcastle]

I just thought it was weird that it was broadcasted like that without much backlash.

So. . . you thought you'd start some controversy here on the hive?  

[Tanaqui]

Specifically, the Washington Times is run by the Church of the Reunification, which you may know as the Moonies. It is rare for me to say that there are media outlets I trust less than Fox News, but....

 

And yes, the Times is fairly conservative. The Post is left-leaning centrist, though in the US that means we tend to think of it as liberal.

[Jasperstone]

So. . . you thought you'd start some controversy here on the hive?

Wow, would you like me to remove it?

[Tanaqui]

So. . . you thought you'd start some controversy here on the hive?  

 

Controversy? Here? You speak as though this is some wretched hive of scum and villainy! Can't we all just get along?

[Jasperstone]

Specifically, the Washington Times is run by the Church of the Reunification, which you may know as the Moonies. It is rare for me to say that there are media outlets I trust less than Fox News, but....

 

And yes, the Times is fairly conservative. The Post is left-leaning centrist, though in the US that means we tend to think of it as liberal.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Guest]

Fox isn't the main outlet for George Will, and by and large he has had an excellent journalistic career - as a writer and commentator he is insightful and thoughtful, even if he isn't always correct. He's also not religious, but self identifies as an atheist. This one can't be laid either on religion or Fox.

[PrincessMommy]

You realize that these kinds of opinions have been around for centuries, right, and have been applied to many popes and many other leaders?  They aren't news.  This is on the commentary page by a guest commentator.  So I am a bit confused by your title, no matter what your opinion might be on his role or his message.  

 

I was thinking the same thing.. this isn't really news that conservative Catholics disagree with a more liberal Pope.  I've been noticing it on Catholic blogs and with some of my Catholic IRL friends since Francis was elevated.  Pope Benedict had similar problems with liberal Catholics.  I don't think worldwide Catholics walk in lock-step adoration to the Pope.    And, if they're like Eastern Orthodox Christians, they believe that if a Pope is in serious error that the Church will right itself eventually.   The belief in the Priesthood of the believer comes into play here (at least with EO it does, not exactly sure how it works in Catholicism). 

[Pawz4me]

I've never liked George Will.  But if he did indeed refer to Pope Francis as "shrill" (as the article claims) -- methinks he's gone totally off his rocker.  Or perhaps he's simply ignorant of the definition.

[Bluegoat]

I was thinking the same thing.. this isn't really news that conservative Catholics disagree with a more liberal Pope.  I've been noticing it on Catholic blogs and with some of my Catholic IRL friends since Francis was elevated.  Pope Benedict had similar problems with liberal Catholics.  I don't think worldwide Catholics walk in lock-step adoration to the Pope.    And, if they're like Eastern Orthodox Christians, they believe that if a Pope is in serious error that the Church will right itself eventually.   The belief in the Priesthood of the believer comes into play here (at least with EO it does, not exactly sure how it works in Catholicism). 

 

I find it so weird that the perception is that Benedict was conservative and Francis is liberal.  It's not hard to find examples of them saying pretty much the same things.

 

[Butter]

What about the Washington Post? Is it not more conservative?

 

Not even sorta.

 

Actually they print a lot of stuff from many points of view and have had articles critical of major Democrat leaders (including the current president) right along with articles critical of major Republican leaders, but the Fox News/Washington Times (which is, frankly, scary sometimes) fans think it's obscenely liberal.

 

I find it so weird that the perception is that Benedict was conservative and Francis is liberal.  It's not hard to find examples of them saying pretty much the same things.

 

 

This.

 

I'm not Catholic, but my extended family is.  My mom was going to be a nun!  I had an uncle who was a priest.  He was in the Order of St. Sulpice which, by the time he became a priest (1930sish?), were basically desk job or little parish priests.  My uncle researched St. Sulpice and found he was a missionary priest.  He traveled and served the poor.  So my uncle requested that he be sent to do the same.  Most of his career he was in Panama.  He spent some time in other Central American countries and also Hawaii (he served in the leper colony area on Moloka'i).  Anyway, a lot of what the current Pope says reminds me of my uncle.  In so many ways this Pope reminds me of my uncle.  His serving spirit amazes me.  We all could learn a whole lot from the Pope, Catholic or not.

[MercyA]

This pope has many views that aren't in line with conservative Christianity in the U.S. 

 

I think it's important to distinguish between political conservatism and theological conservatism. I agree that they are often linked in the U.S., and that is a source of some frustration to me. ;)  In my view, both major political parties have anti-Biblical positions on some issues.

 

I am a theologically conservative Christian and find myself often (but not always) agreeing with the Pope.

[JustEm]

That article is misleading. I never thought abortion wasn't forgiven (where woman goes to confession with authentic remorse)... articles on the matter already elaborate on the matter. I see hardly any distinction of now vs. then.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/01/europe/pope-francis-abortion/

 

I can't take the original linked story seriously.

Well cacnon law states that anyone involved in an abortion is automatically excommunicated from the Church at the time of a abortion, assuming they know the law. generally only bishops can absolve excommunication. A bishop can give a priest permission to do the absolving, that is how it is in the US. In most other countries bishops don't give that permission so a priest would have to point the confessor in the bishops direction. So what the Pope said doesn't effect how things are done in the US but it did in other parts of the world.

[MBM]

Here is more information that clarifies excommunication and abortion explaining what factors are figured in to decisions:

 

http://www.catholiccourier.com/commentary/other-columnists/is-one-excommunicated-after-having-an-abortion/

[katilac]

I find it so weird that the perception is that Benedict was conservative and Francis is liberal.  It's not hard to find examples of them saying pretty much the same things.

 

 

I honestly think it's about appearances - Benedict looked conservative. He did not have a warm and fuzzy vibe. People did not tend to think that he was 'nice.' 

 

Francis looks more gentle and welcoming. 

 

I think they could each give the exact same speech and get very different reactions. 

[zoobie]

I've never liked George Will. But if he did indeed refer to Pope Francis as "shrill" (as the article claims) -- methinks he's gone totally off his rocker. Or perhaps he's simply ignorant of the definition.

He's done some ok work in baseball, but he's gone off the rails several times recently. I'm thinking of his articles on campus rape. Ugh.

[HRAAB]

Nothing new under the sun.

 

Anyone who tries to view the pope under a political lens, conservative or liberal, is going to be disappointed because first and foremost, he's Catholic.

[Bluegoat]

I think it's important to distinguish between political conservatism and theological conservatism. I agree that they are often linked in the U.S., and that is a source of some frustration to me. ;)  In my view, both major political parties have anti-Biblical positions on some issues.

 

I am a theologically conservative Christian and find myself often (but not always) agreeing with the Pope.

 

 

I honestly think it's about appearances - Benedict looked conservative. He did not have a warm and fuzzy vibe. People did not tend to think that he was 'nice.' 

 

Francis looks more gentle and welcoming. 

 

I think they could each give the exact same speech and get very different reactions. 

 

I think both of these things are true.  Francis seems very personable, while Benedict was i suspect a little more shy or reserved, and he tended toward being scholarly.  But also, a lot of people don't quite understand that what seems "conservative" theologically doesn't correspond very directly to whatever it is they think it means.  So, Benedict was very interested in the problems of the modern liturgy for example, and this seemed to be interpreted by secular sources as meaning he was somehow politically conservative.

 

But you can go back to the end of the 19th century and read the social encyclicals, and compared to them the average politician from the Democrat party would be a far right economic libertarian. 

 

I'm afraid good reporting on religious issues is pretty hard to come by, and that is IME even true in religious news sources.

[Laurie]

 

 

Another article-

 

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/sep/22/george-will-pope-francis-is-a-false-prophet/

 

 

I like original sources.  Here's George Will's column:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/pope-franciss-fact-free-flamboyance/2015/09/18/7d711750-5d6a-11e5-8e9e-dce8a2a2a679_story.html

 

Unless I'm not reading carefully enough this morning, he never used the words "false prophet".  

[Slache]

Well cacnon law states that anyone involved in an abortion is automatically excommunicated from the Church at the time of a abortion, assuming they know the law. generally only bishops can absolve excommunication. A bishop can give a priest permission to do the absolving, that is how it is in the US. In most other countries bishops don't give that permission so a priest would have to point the confessor in the bishops direction. So what the Pope said doesn't effect how things are done in the US but it did in other parts of the world.

Does excommunication = Hell?

[Bluegoat]

Does excommunication = Hell?

 

That is one of those, not necessarily, but it probably isn't a good sign, kind of things. 

[Slache]

That is one of those, not necessarily, but it probably isn't a good sign, kind of things.

Well worded.

[Slache]

If one is excommunicatied can they return?

[Ellie]

If one is excommunicatied can they return?

 

Yes.

[milovany]

The word "excommunicated" means "out of communion."  So if one is out of communion, it stands to reason one can come back into communion.  In Orthodoxy, one is "excommunicated" if they miss something like three Divine Liturgies in a row .... but they confess and come back to church and they're in communion again.  It's not as bad as "kicked out of the church forever" which I think is the common perception.  But as an EO, I don't fully know how it works in RC.  Just wanted to comment on the meaning of the word excommunicated. 

[Laurie4b]

My response: Much ado about nothing

 

My biases: I am a Protestant who really thinks well of Pope Francis and finds what he does and says very spiritually thought-provoking. Politically, I am liberal on some issues, conservative on others. I have switched positions on some things. 

 

Note: I've noticed over the years that people conflate the labels conservative and liberal with respect to theology and political affiliation. I know theologically conservative people who are politically liberal and I've known theologically liberal people who are politically conservative. Conflating the two will confuse the issue. 

 

The first article is a conservative traditionalist Catholic point of view on many issues (such as mass) combined with a politically conservative point of view. Meh. Much of the dispute about the mass, abortion, etc. is intra-religious argument (Catholics arguing with Catholics), which is quite easy to misunderstand if you don't know all the nuances. Religious people can disagree. Meh. He adds in his own political viewpoints as well, muddying the waters. But it's his opinion piece. <shrug>

 

The second article is written from a politically conservative point of view by a man who is identifies as an atheist, so he is using the term "false prophet" pretty generically to mean, "He's preaching something false (or that I disagree with ;)."  Political conservatives will disagree with the Pope on many things. That's fine.   Meh. 

 

I often find the Daily Kos to be very insightful; however, in this case, it went all conspiracy-theorist-- proof-texting what is a giant leap from either of the authors to "anti-christ" label. I didn't see the word "anti-christ" used in either article. (Correct me if I am wrong.)

 

The term "false prophet" in the Christian circles that I have traveled in (I am pretty ecumenical in my associations) can have a pretty simple meaning that does not have all that anti-christ stuff attached to it. It can simply mean someone is saying something as if God himself were directing their speech when He is not. Whether or not the Pope is intending to speak as "from the mouth of God" or not, both columnists are essentially saying, "I don't think Pope Francis's message squares with what I believe a Christian must necessarily think." And since Will is an atheist, this doesn't even apply. 

 

Tempest in teapot. 

 

ETA: typo

 

[chiguirre]

 

Tempest in teapot. 

Well said!

 

I think both columnists need to do a little more historical digging to understand this Pope. In general, John Paul II is acknowledged to have been deeply anti-Communist and anti-Liberation theology because of his life experiences in Poland in the 1940s-70s. What life experiences have most marked Francis? The Dirty War and the disappearances in Argentina, Chile, Uruguay and Brazil during the 1970s and 1980s. How could he not be profoundly distrustful of right wing politics when he had to live through those years and fear for the safety of many friends and family? He lived through hyperinflation, IMF austerity programs, dollarization, currency reboots...why would he think global capitalism is a great thing for poor and middle class Argentines? A little more thought about what Francis lived through would illuminate why he prioritizes certain aspects of his message. That those priorities don't thrill American political conservatives is more a reflection on them than it is on Francis.

[ktgrok]

The word "excommunicated" means "out of communion."  So if one is out of communion, it stands to reason one can come back into communion.  In Orthodoxy, one is "excommunicated" if they miss something like three Divine Liturgies in a row ....but they confess and come back to church and they're in communion again.  It's not as bad as "kicked out of the church forever" which I think is the common perception.  But as an EO, I don't fully know how it works in RC.  Just wanted to comment on the meaning of the word excommunicated. 

 

Exactly. It's not like it means you are shunned or something. You can even still attend Mass. You can't take communion though, and they wouldn't be signing you up as a eucharistic minister, but otherwise it's a private thing. 

[MSNative]

I read both and didn't see a big problem with either. Clearly the authors don't agree with the current Pope's focus on climate change, minimum wage and annulments rather than other priorities. I didn't see either columnist writing that the Pope was Satan.

[KarenNC]

If you are surprised that anyone would link the Pope (any Pope, not just this one), back in the 70s, the local Christian bookstore (Protestant) carried comic books specifically calling the Pope the Anti-Christ on the cover, just because he is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church (which is not Christian according to the same sources). It's not surprising to me that there are still groups or individuals who would say the same thing. A quick google search on "pope antichrist" brings up over a million and a half links to those saying the same thing.

 

I do think the particular linking in the Daily Kos article of the "false prophet" reference to the Anti-Christ in this particular instance is quite a stretch and done to sensationalize.

[Lady Florida.]

I'm not really sure why you thought it would be HUGE.

[Laurie4b]

If you are surprised that anyone would link the Pope (any Pope, not just this one), back in the 70s, the local Christian bookstore (Protestant) carried comic books specifically calling the Pope the Anti-Christ on the cover, just because he is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church (which is not Christian according to the same sources). It's not surprising to me that there are still groups or individuals who would say the same thing. A quick google search on "pope antichrist" brings up over a million and a half links to those saying the same thing.

 

I do think the particular linking in the Daily Kos article of the "false prophet" reference to the Anti-Christ in this particular instance is quite a stretch and done to sensationalize.

 

Exactly. It would not be surprising at all to have a certain type of group linking the pope to the anti-christ. But the Daily Kos? Totally bizarre. 

[BrookValley.]

Exactly. It would not be surprising at all to have a certain type of group linking the pope to the anti-christ. But the Daily Kos? Totally bizarre. 

 

I'll admit to only skimming the Kos diary, but I read it as pointing out right-wing sources linking the Pope to the anti-Christ. Not the writer on the Kos attempting to link the Pope to anti-Christ. The piece was talking about that "certain type of group" that you mentioned. 

 

Or maybe I am misreading your post. Work has fried my brain today, and my children are off the rails.  :willy_nilly:

 

And as to the original post, yeah, nothing new here. I know plenty of people who are very adamant that the Pope, or any Catholic, is not Christian, and yes I've heard plenty of insinuation or outright declaration that the Pope is the anti-Christ. Eye-roll worthy, nothing more. 

[Lady Florida.]

I'll admit to only skimming the Kos diary, but I read it as pointing out right-wing sources linking the Pope to the anti-Christ. Not the writer on the Kos attempting to link the Pope to anti-Christ. The piece was talking about that "certain type of group" that you mentioned. 

 

 

 

Yes, that's exactly what it is. I even searched the D-Kos site for "pope anti christ" and that's what I found. The title of the article alone should tell you what it's about.

[BrookValley.]

Yes, that's exactly what it is. I even searched the D-Kos site for "pope anti christ" and that's what I found. The title of the article alone should tell you what it's about.

 

Yeah. I used to be an active writer/contributor on that site. Linking the Pope to the anti-Christ would get you crucified (no pun intended) and run off the site faster than you could rack up 200+ comments. That's not the vibe there, by a long shot. 

[3 ladybugs]

I am a reformed Catholic (I was married Catholic and then the church left me and I was forced to become Lutheran) and conservative by US standards. I go to church with quite a few reformed Catholics. :( 

 

The Catholics are going into a Jubilee of Mercy in the next year. Many of Frances positions because of it have angered many people. Strangely enough he hasn't addressed one of the biggest reasons we left (my life was saved by IVF, I would still be going to hell in their eyes because of this, and to some my children are "lower class" because of how they were conceived). 

 

I am not happy about some of the things this Pope is doing, but hey he is just a guy and so I guess I can't expect perfection. I have to go to Philly tomorrow for something completely unrelated. My opinion of him may change if I have a hard time doing this. :giggle: