Josh Duggar in the news yet again

[Joanne]

Not in this situation. She is NOT trapped at all. She can kick him out and she'll get more than half of assets because he has no hope of future employment. She can do a paid interview. She can write a tell all with a ghostwriter. She can go through an abused women's network. No family court judge wouldn't award her full custody. She's in Arkansas where being female still counts. She's been exclusively raising the kids while he worked, taking them away would do irrevocable harm to them. Chances are he was using hookers in DC and chances are some of them were underage, and she could drop that in court and given his history there is NO WAY a judge wouldn't take her side. Especially since in small towns like that there is a good chance the county judge that would make the ruling is the same judge that has dealt with his child abuse issues before. And just threatening to take it public with the family would remove his parent's leverage over her because the entire country turned on them when they learned the parents didn't protect their daughters better.

 

Psychologically and sociologically, she IS stuck. IT is part of the spiritual abuse. It would take considerable momentum and force to transcend her psycholical prison and access the elements of your post.

[Another Lynn]

I may have skimmed a few pages or so, so please forgive if this has already been discussed.  But I remember the extremely awkward "birds and bees" talk between JB and Josh during the tv episode of Josh and Anna's wedding.  It seemed to me even at the time that Josh was not very receptive to his father's "wisdom" which seemed odd to me.  I also remember that JB said that just because you're married doesn't mean you can demand s#x all the time.  And Josh's defensive sounding "Yeah, I know."  Yikes, that all sounds even worse now than it did when it aired. 

[Katy]

Psychologically and sociologically, she IS stuck. IT is part of the spiritual abuse. It would take considerable momentum and force to transcend her psycholical prison and access the elements of your post.

 

To some extent you are right, but to another I don't think Anna was raised as firmly in the ATI camp as the Duggars.  Her dad's prison ministry meant that for him at least, there was exposure to the real world.  And several of her siblings have completely left fundamentalism, so she is aware of their reasoning and choices, I'm sure.  I think she saw a big house and a glamorous life in comparison to the poverty she was raised in and that's what drew her.  That and the whole first love thing.  But there's no way she's not at least considering leaving him.  She might be praying not to feel that way, but she's got to be thinking about it.  And once she finally loses respect for him, I give it less than six months until she leaves.

 

 

I may have skimmed a few pages or so, so please forgive if this has already been discussed.  But I remember the extremely awkward "birds and bees" talk between JB and Josh during the tv episode of Josh and Anna's wedding.  It seemed to me even at the time that Josh was not very receptive to his father's "wisdom" which seemed odd to me.  I also remember that JB said that just because you're married doesn't mean you can demand s#x all the time.  And Josh's defensive sounding "Yeah, I know."  Yikes, that all sounds even worse now than it did when it aired. 

 

It was awkward, but I read somewhere that it was completely staged for TV.  Apparently they'd gone through a whole bit of premarital counseling with his parents and both bride and groom had read the book before.  I can understand why it would seem even more awkward when you're a kid who was never allowed to refer to sex and now is being interviewed about it on camera for TV.

[FO4UR]

I know someone who stays with her emotionally abusive husband because his parents have money and when she tried to leave they hired lawyers and showed that they would tell any lie they could think of about her. She was close to losing her kids so she went back to him and stays with him to this day. Unhappily.

 

Yep.  Why do women stay?  THIS!!!!!

 

 

Read some Lundy Bancroft.  Abusive men, of the worst type, use the court system as a tool of abuse. It really isn't that they want the kids.  They want to take the kids away to harm her, control her.  

 

 

Not in this situation.  She is NOT trapped at all.  She can kick him out and she'll get more than half of assets because he has no hope of future employment.  She can do a paid interview.  She can write a tell all with a ghostwriter.  She can go through an abused women's network.  No family court judge wouldn't award her full custody.  She's in Arkansas where being female still counts.  She's been exclusively raising the kids while he worked, taking them away would do irrevocable harm to them.  Chances are he was using hookers in DC and chances are some of them were underage, and she could drop that in court and given his history there is NO WAY a judge wouldn't take her side.  Especially since in small towns like that there is a good chance the county judge that would make the ruling is the same judge that has dealt with his child abuse issues before.  And just threatening to take it public with the family would remove his parent's leverage over her because the entire country turned on them when they learned the parents didn't protect their daughters better.

 

 

Yes, she is trapped.  Have you ever tried to go through an "abused women's network?"  Your post sounds very naive.

[Katy]

 

 

Yes, she is trapped.  Have you ever tried to go through an "abused women's network?"  Your post sounds very naive.

 

No.  But I have volunteered for one.  And I have several family members that are survivors of spousal abuse and got out, so I might be more informed than you think.   What's trapping her most is her own thinking.  If she decided she wanted out she could get out, and much easier than most women in that situation.

[Butter]

And she will be told that if she doesn't forgive him immediately, that's HER sin to bear. And probably a worse sin than him cheating. 

 

This.  This is what breaks my heart.  I know someone who had her own parents tell her her husband's cheating was because *she* was clearly failing in her wifely duties.  Her MOTHER told her if she had just given him "steak" at home, he wouldn't have had to go out for "hamburger."  In reality her husband was a narcissistic, abusive jerk.  But for years my friend felt like she wasn't good enough because of the verbal abuse from her husband and the sick twisted things her parents said to her.  (Note: They were NOT ATI.  They were not even conservative Christian.)

[Butter]

I may have skimmed a few pages or so, so please forgive if this has already been discussed.  But I remember the extremely awkward "birds and bees" talk between JB and Josh during the tv episode of Josh and Anna's wedding.  It seemed to me even at the time that Josh was not very receptive to his father's "wisdom" which seemed odd to me.  I also remember that JB said that just because you're married doesn't mean you can demand s#x all the time.  And Josh's defensive sounding "Yeah, I know."  Yikes, that all sounds even worse now than it did when it aired. 

 

I read an article or something once that said that "talk" was staged for the "reality" show.  Neither were really into it, neither wanted to do it, but the producers insisted and told them what to say and everything.

[mommymilkies]

I know someone who stays with her emotionally abusive husband because his parents have money and when she tried to leave they hired lawyers and showed that they would tell any lie they could think of about her. She was close to losing her kids so she went back to him and stays with him to this day. Unhappily.

Unfortunately I've seen this happen in person way too many times.  

 

Psychologically and sociologically, she IS stuck. IT is part of the spiritual abuse. It would take considerable momentum and force to transcend her psycholical prison and access the elements of your post.

:iagree:

 

Yep.  Why do women stay?  THIS!!!!!

 

 

Read some Lundy Bancroft.  Abusive men, of the worst type, use the court system as a tool of abuse. It really isn't that they want the kids.  They want to take the kids away to harm her, control her.  

 

 

Yes, she is trapped.  Have you ever tried to go through an "abused women's network?"  Your post sounds very naive.

:iagree:   It is really not so easy for many women.  Really.  

[LucyStoner]

She looks like his sisters. If it wasn't for the married Duggar photo pose, I'd have thought she was one of his sisters. :huh:

There's a certain similarity in the appearance of women in ATI because Bill Gothard passes off his own, um, "tastes" as being "most godly". So long, permed or curled hair is all but a proscription. It makes everyone look a little like it's still the late 1980s or early 1990s but dressed up like it's an even earlier era. Same thing for makeup and even to a degree, hair color.

 

I dunno. I rather think that if God wanted me to have curly hair, I'd have curly hair and not have to perm it. But that's just me.

[happypamama]

Depending on where she got prenatal care, they may well have already tested her. Here I think it's part of the standard of care--an HIV test, I know, is on the list just like a diabetes test and two ultrasounds.

I think she used the same set of CNMs that I used for my first son. I believe they offered me HIV and STD testing, although they also didn't blink when I declined them. (They offered all the same tests as an OB would have, but they didn't complain when I declined everything except basic blood work and maybe the quad screen, can't remember. I could have gotten ultrasound, etc. if I'd wanted them.). Anna likely did decline them too, but they also required that we take our newborn to a pediatrician or family doctor a few days after birth. Hopefully that means Anna started a path of care for the baby, and hopefully the baby's doctor, or her midwives, will encourage her to get the appropriate testing. (And I haven't read much -- has he actually admitted to having relations with another woman, or is that speculation at this point? "Unfaithful" can mean multiple things.)

 

I'm sorry for all of them. I'm sorry that this has happened to anyone, that anyone has gone down such paths. I'm sorry for any upheaval those little children will go through because of this. But mostly, my heart aches for Anna. Maybe she felt he was past the issue of abuse of his sisters? (Whether or not he got the appropriate help, or could be helped, is beside the point, if she thought he had gotten help and was past it.). I'm sorry for any woman or man who finds that their spouse was unfaithful, but to have it blow up in such a public way -- I really feel for her. I hope she hears plenty of people reminding her that it's not her fault; even if she isn't perfect (because none of us are), the decisions were still his to make, not hers. I hope that she finds support, both emotional and physical, for whatever she decides is the right thing to do, whether that's to stay in her marriage, or to start over with her precious children.

[PrincessMommy]

from People mag:

 

 

 

"The source says that from their knowledge of Josh and Anna and the Duggar family, "no way is she leaving him" – adding that it would not come as a surprise if "on some level" Anna tries to "absorb some of the blame."

"Maybe not publicly, ever, but privately, there will be some suggestion of whether or not she should have been more aware of the pressures Josh was under, of the issues he was facing, and how she could have better counseled him or helped him," says the source.

"She is fully and permanently committed to her marriage and her children. And she'll have the support of Jim Bob and Michelle and everyone else in their circle in terms of staying with him and making this work," continues the source. "Divorce is not even something that will be discussed."

 

I find so much of that disturbing.. I don't even know where to start.  Of course, it is People mag...and it is "some source"  So I hope there's a lot of conjecture... but it just makes me sad.   Where are her parents??? 

[Guest]

And she will be told that if she doesn't forgive him immediately, that's HER sin to bear. And probably a worse sin than him cheating. 

 

Disgusting.

[Guest]

No.  But I have volunteered for one.  And I have several family members that are survivors of spousal abuse and got out, so I might be more informed than you think.   What's trapping her most is her own thinking.  If she decided she wanted out she could get out, and much easier than most women in that situation.

 

I feel like women are trapped.  If they report that their husbands abuse them, CPS gets involved and they fear losing their children.  Their abusers tell the victim they will lie on them (claiming they are an abusive, unfit parent) and that their kids will be taken.  They feel it is better to just stay silent.

[Guest]

I agree. In all my years of living, I still am amazed at the hatred in people's hearts. That comment kind of blew me away as well. Praying for all of those hurt by this. I'd prefer to be one who doesn't "delight in evil" but that is me.

 

There is a lot of evil going on right now. It seems so much more media coverage of it all. So many people and evil organizations being shown for what they are.

 

It's pretty disturbing, isn't it?  Something is up.

[gardenmom5]

Depending on where she got prenatal care, they may well have already tested her. Here I think it's part of the standard of care--an HIV test, I know, is on the list just like a diabetes test and two ultrasounds.

 

there are far more common STD's than HIV.  and where did she get prenatal care?  ati approved midwives? or an actual state licensed provider?

[albeto.]

n/m

 

misleading story

[gardenmom5]

No.  But I have volunteered for one.  And I have several family members that are survivors of spousal abuse and got out, so I might be more informed than you think.   What's trapping her most is her own thinking.  If she decided she wanted out she could get out, and much easier than most women in that situation.

 

bingo.

 

If she can do the paradigm shift to reject ati's telling her jd's immorality is her fault - jd (and jb & M) can expect the sky will fall.

 

here's hoping she can - but it is a big deal to do so.

[gardenmom5]

I read an article or something once that said that "talk" was staged for the "reality" show.  Neither were really into it, neither wanted to do it, but the producers insisted and told them what to say and everything.

 

I totally believe it was staged. I can also believe the producers scripted it - how much of that dialogue do the duggers actually buy into? the "you can't demand s3x all the time . . .?"  really? just make your wife feel guilty for not being available when you're in the mood - even if her face is planted in the toilet.  then blame her for your affairs.

 

(how many takes did they go through?  I read somewhere that even jon & kate 8 would rewrap Christmas presents to open again - with the child acting surprised - if the director wasn't happy with how the take went.)

[albeto.]

I'm enjoying all this public humiliation he and his family are going through.

 

Most of his family doesn't deserve this. His wife, kids, sisters. I think thats a pretty shitty thing to say. It would be like you doing something wrong, and us being happy that your family had to suffer because of it.

 

I agree. In all my years of living, I still am amazed at the hatred in people's hearts. That comment kind of blew me away as well. Praying for all of those hurt by this. I'd prefer to be one who doesn't "delight in evil" but that is me.

 

There is a lot of evil going on right now. It seems so much more media coverage of it all. So many people and evil organizations being shown for what they are.

 

It's pretty disturbing, isn't it?  Something is up.

 

Where was the outrage when this guy got paid to stir up modern day witch hunts? Why wasn't it disturbing when he fingered an innocent group and called for their rights to be stripped away, their freedom to be denied, their lives to be forfeit? 

 

We can't publicly hang him from a tree (and I wouldn't want to), but we can sure watch his fall from grace with a kind of satisfaction that restores faith in humanity. Some people aren't willing to silence their consciences for a misguided appeal to loyalty. Some are able to expose hypocrisy in hopes of preventing more damage. More power to 'em. If the price of his reputation is that some measure of prevention against this demonstrably dangerous lifestyle can be realized, I think it's quite worth it. Hell, I'll contribute to the coffer. Some people respond with glee, others with sympathy. There's an entire spectrum out there, but those who respond to abuse and oppression with silence abdicate the right to speak about moral outrage when that oppression is being challenged.

 

And Anne's reputation can continue to stink and fester right along side his for all I care*. She knowingly married an incestuous child molester, then decorated her house and purchased what she desired with the profits of fear-mongering and hate, all the while promoting a lifestyle of self-loathing for the worlds' greatest ponzi scheme. 

 

The "evil," the "something" here is clearly directed against the systematic suppression of human dignity, liberty, and freedom. It's the growing number of voices joining the chorus of people who are demanding people be treated with respect, regardless of their age, gender, or sexual orientation. The implication that there is a moral war waged against xianity seems to me to be nothing more than an admission and frustration that one's privileges are being challenged. Sometimes, that privilege is something simple, something small, like the expectation that a particular belief will be respected by everyone because it always had been. Leonardo da Vinci once said, “Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence.†And silent we are no more. And the chorus of voices demanding humanitarian dignity of all people is growing. This appeal to sympathize with the loss of xian authority is utterly unappealing to those of us whose sympathies lie with people who are being damaged by this authority. So, sorry, but not sorry. No sale. 

 

 

 

*On the one hand. On the other, I sympathize with her as much as anyone. I hate to see people in pain, especially when that pain was unjustly dumped on them. But let's face it, her choice thus far has been to contribute to a regime of fear and hate. She's on the losing side of history, and while I hope she crosses over eventually, I can't hold my breath. The training is likely to have been just too efficient. 

[Katy]

I'm out of likes.  Again.

[happypamama]

there are far more common STD's than HIV. and where did she get prenatal care? ati approved midwives? or an actual state licensed provider?

I believe she used BirthCare in Alexandria. They're real, certified CNMs, licensed, and they practice with physicians as backups. If they have any concerns, they send you to their cooperating OBs.

[displace]

My concern is that he is a serial cheat. With his secret second life, admitted cheating (however it manifested), and horrors from adolescence, I think he may be a serial cheater. From my super limited understanding to get a serial cheater to give up that life they will need to have such severe restrictions in their marriage so he is unable to do anything like this ever again.

 

And I don't know if they will or won't but I worry Anna will forgive but be in this same position in a year or two. Fool me trice...

[Guest]

Not in this situation. She is NOT trapped at all. She can kick him out and she'll get more than half of assets because he has no hope of future employment. She can do a paid interview. She can write a tell all with a ghostwriter. She can go through an abused women's network. No family court judge wouldn't award her full custody. She's in Arkansas where being female still counts. She's been exclusively raising the kids while he worked, taking them away would do irrevocable harm to them. Chances are he was using hookers in DC and chances are some of them were underage, and she could drop that in court and given his history there is NO WAY a judge wouldn't take her side. Especially since in small towns like that there is a good chance the county judge that would make the ruling is the same judge that has dealt with his child abuse issues before. And just threatening to take it public with the family would remove his parent's leverage over her because the entire country turned on them when they learned the parents didn't protect their daughters better.

I agree - in all legal and practical ways, she could leave and she would almost certainly get full custody of the kids. It is only in the prison of her mind that I believe she cannot leave.

 

But, maybe I will be surprised. The thought of her getting pg again is absolutely nauseating to me. I'm *happy* she has a newborn and so, is perhaps not likely to get pg so soon.

 

In other news: does Jill say, "oh, thank GOD we are fleeing the country!" Does Jessa say, "oh, God! Why are we still stuck here?!"

[fairfarmhand]

from People mag:

 

 

 

 

I find so much of that disturbing.. I don't even know where to start.  Of course, it is People mag...and it is "some source"  So I hope there's a lot of conjecture... but it just makes me sad.   Where are her parents??? 

 

Really. My dh would be livid. Not just because of someone hurting his girls so intimately, but also for publicly humiliating them in that manner. We'd be at the front door going...Come home with us for a few days and really really think things through.

[*Jessica*]

Where was the outrage when this guy got paid to stir up modern day witch hunts? Why wasn't it disturbing when he fingered an innocent group and called for their rights to be stripped away, their freedom to be denied, their lives to be forfeit?

 

We can't publicly hang him from a tree (and I wouldn't want to), but we can sure watch his fall from grace with a kind of satisfaction that restores faith in humanity. Some people aren't willing to silence their consciences for a misguided appeal to loyalty. Some are able to expose hypocrisy in hopes of preventing more damage. More power to 'em. If the price of his reputation is that some measure of prevention against this demonstrably dangerous lifestyle can be realized, I think it's quite worth it. Hell, I'll contribute to the coffer. Some people respond with glee, others with sympathy. There's an entire spectrum out there, but those who respond to abuse and oppression with silence abdicate the right to speak about moral outrage when that oppression is being challenged.

Yes!

[HRAAB]

Really. My dh would be livid. Not just because of someone hurting his girls so intimately, but also for publicly humiliating them in that manner. We'd be at the front door going...Come home with us for a few days and really really think things through.

 

Exactly!!!  This is what I was saying.  Where the hell are her parents?

[Cindy in FL.]

Where was the outrage when this guy got paid to stir up modern day witch hunts? Why wasn't it disturbing when he fingered an innocent group and called for their rights to be stripped away, their freedom to be denied, their lives to be forfeit?

 

We can't publicly hang him from a tree (and I wouldn't want to), but we can sure watch his fall from grace with a kind of satisfaction that restores faith in humanity. Some people aren't willing to silence their consciences for a misguided appeal to loyalty. Some are able to expose hypocrisy in hopes of preventing more damage. More power to 'em. If the price of his reputation is that some measure of prevention against this demonstrably dangerous lifestyle can be realized, I think it's quite worth it. Hell, I'll contribute to the coffer. Some people respond with glee, others with sympathy. There's an entire spectrum out there, but those who respond to abuse and oppression with silence abdicate the right to speak about moral outrage when that oppression is being challenged.

 

And Anne's reputation can continue to stink and fester right along side his for all I care*. She knowingly married an incestuous child molester, then decorated her house and purchased what she desired with the profits of fear-mongering and hate, all the while promoting a lifestyle of self-loathing for the worlds' greatest ponzi scheme.

 

The "evil," the "something" here is clearly directed against the systematic suppression of human dignity, liberty, and freedom. It's the growing number of voices joining the chorus of people who are demanding people be treated with respect, regardless of their age, gender, or sexual orientation. The implication that there is a moral war waged against xianity seems to me to be nothing more than an admission and frustration that one's privileges are being challenged. Sometimes, that privilege is something simple, something small, like the expectation that a particular belief will be respected by everyone because it always had been. Leonardo da Vinci once said, “Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence.†And silent we are no more. And the chorus of voices demanding humanitarian dignity of all people is growing. This appeal to sympathize with the loss of xian authority is utterly unappealing to those of us whose sympathies lie with people who are being damaged by this authority. So, sorry, but not sorry. No sale.

 

 

 

*On the one hand. On the other, I sympathize with her as much as anyone. I hate to see people in pain, especially when that pain was unjustly dumped on them. But let's face it, her choice thus far has been to contribute to a regime of fear and hate. She's on the losing side of history, and while I hope she crosses over eventually, I can't hold my breath. The training is likely to have been just too efficient.

I am not going to defend Josh Duggar or the organization that he worked for. However, some people aren't willing to silence their consciences for some misguided loyalty to the ever changing morality of our culture, either. You can continue your diatribe against God, Christianity, Christians, and everyone who disagrees with homosexuality and the pro-LGBTQ culture we live in until the proverbial cows come home and you will not convince everyone of the rightness of your argument.

 

You have made it very clear, time and again, on this forum that you think that the things/ideas that Christians hold to be true are unintelligent, irrational, illogical, immoral, and unethical. You rarely miss an opportunity to express those feelings. I think that you are wrong.

 

Anecdotally, my dh is a well educated man who was dating a Jewish girl in college. Dh was unchurched and was willing to convert to Judaism to appease her family. Not wanting to do something so serious without research and study, he decided to talk to a Rabbi and a preacher. The preacher asked him to do some reading in the Bible before he made his decision. Dh did that and was convinced of the truth of what he read and became a Christian. That's not where he left it, though. He spends hours in study each week. He is neither irrational nor illogical. There are many Theologians and scholars that will refute the ones that you cite with regard to interpretation of the Bible and historical evidence. Highly educated, degreed men and women.

 

History is not done yet, so I think it is premature for you to be announcing who is on the losing side.

[zoobie]

Exactly!!! This is what I was saying. Where the hell are her parents?

She's 27 with 4 kids. Her parents married her off to a known child molester 7 years ago. Once Pa Keller transferred Anna's headship to Josh, he's out of the equation. In their cult, helping her leave would make her more of a failure.

 

Even if they weren't crazy cult members, she's a grown woman. What are they supposed to do? My parents would support me however I wanted them to, but they wouldn't be actively doing anything other than that. It would be up to me to be doing the doing. If that makes any sense. :P

[HRAAB]

She's 27 with 4 kids. Her parents married her off to a known child molester 7 years ago. Once Pa Keller transferred Anna's headship to Josh, he's out of the equation. In their cult, helping her leave would make her more of a failure.

 

Even if they weren't crazy cult members, she's a grown woman. What are they supposed to do? My parents would support me however I wanted them to, but they wouldn't be actively doing anything other than that. It would be up to me to be doing the doing. If that makes any sense. :p

 

Yeah, but I guess in a way she doesn't seem like a grown woman to me.  My girls moved out, lived on their own, bought a car, paid bills, navigated college, traveled.  Then they got married.  She seems like someone who needs help.  And, if you believe as they do that a woman has to be under a man's authority, when the man you've passed that onto messes up so badly, wouldn't it be right for the father to take it back?  I mean, they don't view her as an independent, autonomous woman.  They don't view any woman that way.  Her family and how they behave isn't yours or mine.  At the very least, I would hope that they're extending an invitation to her and her children so she knows they would welcome her in their house and support her through this.

 

My God these people are sick and twisted.  I think it just dawned on me that they must have known he molested his sisters when they sanctioned the marriage.

[displace]

Anyone else upset his apology was on his mom and dad's website? Am I thinking wrong? I don't want to give any hits to their pages and verify myself.

[Guest]

I am not going to defend Josh Duggar or the organization that he worked for. However, some people aren't willing to silence their consciences for some misguided loyalty to the ever changing morality of our culture, either. You can continue your diatribe against God, Christianity, Christians, and everyone who disagrees with homosexuality and the pro-LGBTQ culture we live in until the proverbial cows come home and you will not convince everyone of the rightness of your argument.

 

You have made it very clear, time and again, on this forum that you think Christians to be unintelligent, irrational, illogical, immoral, and unethical. You rarely miss an opportunity to express those feelings. I think that you are wrong and offensive.

 

Anecdotally, my dh is a well educated man who was dating a Jewish girl in college. Dh was unchurched and was willing to convert to Judaism to appease her family. Not wanting to do something so serious without research and study, he decided to talk to a Rabbi and a preacher. The preacher asked him to do some reading in the Bible before he made his decision. Dh did that and was convinced of the truth of what he read and became a Christian. That's not where he left it, though. He spends hours in study each week. He is neither irrational nor illogical. There are many Theologians and scholars that will refute the ones that you cite with regard to interpretation of the Bible and historical evidence. Highly educated, degreed men and women.

 

History is not done yet, so I think it is premature for you to be announcing who is on the losing side.

Thank you for this. I was resisting the baiting but it needed to be said.

[Mimm]

Anyone else upset his apology was on his mom and dad's website? Am I thinking wrong? I don't want to give any hits to their pages and verify myself.

 

No... why would you be upset about that? :confused1:  That seems like a pretty small thing compared to the rest...

 

ETA: If you don't want to go to their site to read it, it's been posted all over the place so it's not hard to find other sources for it.

[Ravin]

Am I the only one wondering why, given the Ramsey-style zero debt financial philosophy the Duggar have always touted, Josh Duggar had a credit card? I wonder how many other debts he has run up in addition to the AM fees? For porn, or prostitutes, strip bars, or whatever else he decided he wanted since he decided he didn't have to play by his own rules?

[SKL]

Am I the only one who is annoyed by the assumptions that Anna is stupid, immature, helpless, and hopeless?

 

Most likely she is quite capable of making a reasoned decision regarding how to react to this information (which may or may not be brand new to her).  She has to consider what is best for her kids in light of how public all of this is.  Do you all know for a fact that she has not spoken to an attorney (or doesn't plan to)?

 

And I also think it is disturbing to see all these strangers deciding and declaring what is best for her and her kids.  How would you all like it if your family's future were being discussed that way?

 

Some people speak of misogyny, and then turn around and speak of grown women as if they were less than full humans.  I call that misogyny.

[zoobie]

Am I the only one wondering why, given the Ramsey-style zero debt financial philosophy the Duggar have always touted, Josh Duggar had a credit card? I wonder how many other debts he has run up in addition to the AM fees? For porn, or prostitutes, strip bars, or whatever else he decided he wanted since he decided he didn't have to play by his own rules?

Many people pay off their credit cards and don't carry debt. You need one to buy airline tickets, order things online, etc. He might've been paying off his slutting website in full each month and not paying interest on it. ;)

[Butter]

Anyone else upset his apology was on his mom and dad's website? Am I thinking wrong? I don't want to give any hits to their pages and verify myself.

 

Not in the least.  Josh and Anna's own website hasn't been updated in ages.  His parents' family blog (which includes news from all members of the family) is active AFAIK and is a reasonable place for his statement to be posted.

[Mimm]

:001_rolleyes: People are trying to cut her some slack with an understanding of her background which deliberately raises women to be as dependent as possible. It really is harder for someone like Anna to leave her marriage than someone who was raised with more mainstream beliefs.

[zoobie]

Am I the only one who is annoyed by the assumptions that Anna is stupid, immature, helpless, and hopeless?

 

Most likely she is quite capable of making a reasoned decision regarding how to react to this information (which may or may not be brand new to her). She has to consider what is best for her kids in light of how public all of this is. Do you all know for a fact that she has not spoken to an attorney (or doesn't plan to)?

 

And I also think it is disturbing to see all these strangers deciding and declaring what is best for her and her kids. How would you all like it if your family's future were being discussed that way?

 

Some people speak of misogyny, and then turn around and speak of grown women as if they were less than full humans. I call that misogyny.

I don't think she is as prepared or capable as she should be because she was raised in and brainwashed by a dangerous religious cult. She is not educated. That being said, I agree that it's not up to her parents or the general public to decide what's best for her. I do think it's perpetuating the abuse cycle for her to continue having and raising children in the cult.

[Butter]

Am I the only one wondering why, given the Ramsey-style zero debt financial philosophy the Duggar have always touted, Josh Duggar had a credit card? I wonder how many other debts he has run up in addition to the AM fees? For porn, or prostitutes, strip bars, or whatever else he decided he wanted since he decided he didn't have to play by his own rules?

 

Having a credit card does not mean he has debt (it doesn't mean he doesn't either).  I think the Duggar parents have a credit card, they just always pay it off.

 

Also, where has it been revealed that he was hiring prostitutes?  And do they really accept credit cards?!?!

 

Am I the only one who is annoyed by the assumptions that Anna is stupid, immature, helpless, and hopeless?

 

No, you aren't.

[albeto.]

 You can continue your diatribe against God, Christianity, Christians, and everyone who disagrees with homosexuality and the pro-LGBTQ culture we live in until the proverbial cows come home and you will not convince everyone of the rightness of your argument.

 

Who said this is my goal? Are you trying to convince everyone of the rightness of your god when you post comments that support the idea that it is a good and rightful god to which one ought to pledge one's loyalty? 

 

You have made it very clear, time and again, on this forum that you think Christians to be unintelligent, irrational, illogical, immoral, and unethical.

 

That's quite a claim.

 

I dare you to find a post in which I say xians are unintelligent, irrational, illogical, and unethical people. 

 

I suspect you won't (no one who ever accuses me does, which I think is not a coincidence). Further, I suspect you'll find comments in which I suggest certain ideas to be irrational and immoral, and certain behaviors to be unethical. Ideas are not people. They don't have rights (not with me anyway). They stand or fall on the merits of their reasons. That's the beautiful baby born of the Enlightenment. Long may she live. The people who profess them is a horse of a different color altogether. 

 

But how interesting to me that you are defending an idea in general, a religious belief system even when you don't agree with the various arguments and claims that it inspires. It's okay for you to judge some of it as being unworthy of respect, or even unethical (you won't defend Duggar or ATI, presumably because you've judged them to not be an honest or honorable belief system?), but it's not okay for me to judge it? I can't judge the stuff you judge, or even the stuff you don't judge. I should just keep my thoughts to myself while everyone else is free to converse, is that it? Or should that be only xians should be free to talk about this stuff? Or just anyone but albeto? 

 

 I think that you are wrong and offensive.

 

I wonder what would happen if I should say the same about you or anyone here. I couldn't get away with a certain behavior is offensive (I know, because I was reprimanded just yesterday), much less identifying a specific person. 

 

Perhaps you'd like to share with me via PM why I'm so offensive to you so this thread can go on without it degrading into a predictable pattern. You can tell me what I should be doing different, and why. And if you want to listen, I'll even respond. Nicely. Without telling you that I find you offensive. Because I don't. I don't even find you that frustrating. I don't agree with your religious beliefs, I don't agree with the reasons one uses to support those beliefs, and I don't respect faith as a virtue unconditionally. I do, however, respect the freedom to speak openly without fear of punishment. However, this thread isn't the place for that, so we can take this to PM. You can include as many people as you'd like. Or you can start a thread in the social group for asking atheists/agnostics. If you can articulate your frustrations in a way that isn't personal, I suspect we can have a delightful, insightful discussion. If you want to keep it personal, I don't mind, but I don't know how well that would work out with regard to the board rules. 

 

Anecdotally, my dh is a well educated man who was dating a Jewish girl in college. Dh was unchurched and was willing to convert to Judaism to appease her family. Not wanting to do something so serious without research and study, he decided to talk to a Rabbi and a preacher. The preacher asked him to do some reading in the Bible before he made his decision. Dh did that and was convinced of the truth of what he read and became a Christian. That's not where he left it, though. He spends hours in study each week. He is neither irrational nor illogical. There are many Theologians and scholars that will refute the ones that you cite with regard to interpretation of the Bible and historical evidence. Highly educated, degreed men and women.

 

I don't doubt you for a moment. I'm not a particularly intelligent or even well read person. I know there are people far, far more clever than I who do have a belief in a supernatural reality. 

 

History is not done yet, so I think it is premature for you to be announcing who is on the losing side.

 

There is a very obvious trend we can see, though. Whether that trend continues or changes course isn't a matter of chance, it depends on variables that are rather easily noted, and not too unpredictable. But ultimately yes, we can't say who is on the "losing side," as that's a rather subjective claim, isn't it?

 

In any case, I find it most interesting that in all this, your focus is on me personally, and you haven't a thing to say about the points I made.

 

If you care to comment on the things I did say, that would be more interesting, and in fitting with the thread, I think. 

 

 

ETA:

Thank you for this. I was resisting the baiting but it needed to be said.

 

I could not agree more with you Cindy in Fl. You said it much better than I ever could.

 

Please allow me to extend my invitation to you, too. Please find a post in which I say xians are unintelligent, irrational, illogical, and unethical people. 

 

Also, please feel free to PM me, or start a thread in the social group, and tell me what I should do to be better. 

 

I look forward to your ideas and solutions.

 

[kahlanne]

I am not going to defend Josh Duggar or the organization that he worked for. However, some people aren't willing to silence their consciences for some misguided loyalty to the ever changing morality of our culture, either. You can continue your diatribe against God, Christianity, Christians, and everyone who disagrees with homosexuality and the pro-LGBTQ culture we live in until the proverbial cows come home and you will not convince everyone of the rightness of your argument.

 

You have made it very clear, time and again, on this forum that you think Christians to be unintelligent, irrational, illogical, immoral, and unethical. You rarely miss an opportunity to express those feelings. I think that you are wrong and offensive.

 

Anecdotally, my dh is a well educated man who was dating a Jewish girl in college. Dh was unchurched and was willing to convert to Judaism to appease her family. Not wanting to do something so serious without research and study, he decided to talk to a Rabbi and a preacher. The preacher asked him to do some reading in the Bible before he made his decision. Dh did that and was convinced of the truth of what he read and became a Christian. That's not where he left it, though. He spends hours in study each week. He is neither irrational nor illogical. There are many Theologians and scholars that will refute the ones that you cite with regard to interpretation of the Bible and historical evidence. Highly educated, degreed men and women.

 

History is not done yet, so I think it is premature for you to be announcing who is on the losing side.

 

I could not agree more with you Cindy in Fl. You said it much better than I ever could.

 

 

[PrincessMommy]

I believe she used BirthCare in Alexandria. They're real, certified CNMs, licensed, and they practice with physicians as backups. If they have any concerns, they send you to their cooperating OBs.

 

 

I used them for 2 of my babies.  They check for STDs...  They are great, compassionate, strong ladies.   It's too bad she's gone back to AR because I'm sure they would be a group she could safely reach out to.   One of the founding MW's daughter was murdered by her abusive boyfriend (20+ years ago) 

[albeto.]

Am I the only one who is annoyed by the assumptions that Anna is stupid, immature, helpless, and hopeless?

 

I'm not so much annoyed, but it does occur to me that at age 27, she may not feel any interest in deferring to her parents' wishes, or anyone's assuming they are to support separation. She's a grown woman who is raising four children. They don't look neglected in any way. She seems by all accounts to be quite capable of making a decision and figuring out how to make it work. She wouldn't be the first woman to work through difficult challenges in a marriage. 

[EmseB]

I am always baffled by these types of threads, both on here and FJ.

 

How do people know the innermost thoughts or inner workings of these people?  I know a lot of people who were brought up in ATI, some are educated, some are not, some are messed up, some are not, some have  a lot of kids, some don't have any, some denounce it, some don't...but I could never pin any one of them down to the level of detail going on here simply by knowing their public persona.

 

I can't figure out how you all (generic) know so much about what these people must be thinking or what they want to do, or what their parents are doing or not doing, or what their mindset is, or how angry or not angry they are

 

These are people, not two dimensional characters that can be reduced to a list of Bill Gothard's greatest hits. Things are happening in their family that we cannot see and don't know or will never know about.  Frankly it just seems like the reverse (for lack of a better word) of what Gothard et al teach about non-believers -- they are this, they do this, they think this, etc.  I get they put themselves on TV, but I don't believe for a second that anyone on any reality show from the Duggars to Jersey Shore is any less complex than I know my own feelings and emotions to be.  I don't understand how so many people here and elsewhere presume to know exactly what's going on or what's not going on in someone else's mind based on statements released by the family and hacked data from AM.

 

It's just strange to me that everyone thinks they must know what's going on inside someone's mind.  Any relationship is more complex than what it's being reduced to here, cult upbringing or no.

 

And for the record, I'm not talking about making judgements based on known facts.  I do think cheating on one's wife while creating child after child with them is a horrible (to say the least) thing to do.  I just don't get how people get from there to trying to predict what they are thinking, what they are going to do, what they must believe or know, etc, etc, etc.  And aside from here there's just pages and pages of that sort of thing all over the internet.
 

[Guest]

I'm curious why no women have been located/come forward?? I'm also curious how many people in his circle knew about this??

[Katy]

Having a credit card does not mean he has debt (it doesn't mean he doesn't either).  I think the Duggar parents have a credit card, they just always pay it off.

 

Also, where has it been revealed that he was hiring prostitutes?  And do they really accept credit cards?!?!

 

 

No, you aren't.

 

It hasn't been revealed that he was using prostitutes, that was speculation on my part.  The lawsuit against AshleyMadison asserted that the profiles of women were 90-95% fake, and of those that are real, the VAST majority were prostitutes, especially in places like Washington, where men will pay for the guaranteed privacy of an escort, and where reporters have asserted there is some genuine human trafficking of underage girls going on. 

 

Full disclosure: my speculation is partially shaded by having a friend who reminds me of Anna. She found out about a year and a half ago that her husband, who would rarely have tEA with her, was addicted to porn and using prostitutes on a regular basis. She grew up in very conservative Christianity, thought his lack of interest in her was her fault (he claimed he didn't like the way she looked during tEA).  She only recently figured out that nothing about it was her fault, and that he was a liar who was continuing to cheat on her, and developed enough courage to kick him out. I've learned a lot about porn addiction because of her situation.

[SKL]

"Uneducated."  What do people mean by this as applied to Anna?  Can she not read and write?

There are billions of moms who do not have a college degree, and a fairly significant % would have to study to pass the GED.  Yet these moms are generally considered capable of making adult decisions.

[LucyStoner]

I don't think that Anna is stupid or helpless. Nor do I think it's up to anyone but her to decide what she wants to do.

 

I do think she is carrying a lot of burden, hasn't been treated well by her parents or her husband and faces a great many challenges which have gotten the better of many very strong and wise people.

 

The person who has treated Anna like she is stupid or helpless? That's the man who married her and thought he could live a double life and run around on her while she was carrying his children.

[JumpyTheFrog]

"Uneducated." What do people mean by this as applied to Anna? Can she not read and write?

 

There are billions of moms who do not have a college degree, and a fairly significant % would have to study to pass the GED. Yet these moms are generally considered capable of making adult decisions.

I assume people mean that she is not easily employable for more than minimum wage. It would be very unlikely she could support her kids as a single mom.

[LucyStoner]

I'm curious why no women have been located/come forward??

If he did have an affair or hookups, it is possible the woman or women didn't know who he was.

 

It is also possible that they would be protecting their own privacy or marriages.

 

Besides. Who would want to admit they were with Josh? He's not exactly a great prize. He seems like the guy you kiss in high school and then when people ask, you deny it ever happened and when he calls again you say you have to wash your hair.