flyingiguana Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 I'm mostly just curious. I have an email telling me I was hired for a job. They asked that I send a resume as a formality so it could be on file with the human resources dept. It says in the email that my resume is only a formality. Once they received the resume, they suddenly "found" that I hadn't had a job in this exact field for 10 yrs. They knew this long before but somehow chose to forget. But it was suddenly grounds for not wanting me anymore. They're now interviewing someone else. So, if I have a letter (an email) telling me I was hired, is their sudden turn around grounds for a lawsuit? I'm mostly just wondering exactly how dysfunctional this place is. Did they open themselves up for legal action? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanny Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Probably not. The HR department probably had the final say on this. If you want to, run this by an attorney who handles a lot of employment cases. GL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaVT Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 I don't know much about employment law, but what would be the purpose of a lawsuit? Would it be to force them to hire you? I wouldn't sue for that because I wouldn't want to work there at that point and if you have to sue to get a job, you'd be walking into a hostile work environment. I'm of the mindset that a job only works out if both parties are happy with the arrangement. Unless there's another reason for the lawsuit that I'm not thinking of? I'm sorry they pulled a fast one on you - that stinks!! I'm surprised they didn't ask for a resume up front, that's pretty standard I thought. Sounds like this company doesn't have it's stuff together anyway and it wouldn't be a good fit. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plansrme Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Probably not in most states. Most states permit a termination of employment for any or no reason, and this is essentially no different than terminating you after one day. If they unhired you after learning that you are Asian or old or Baptist, of course, that is another matter. Sounds like a good thing this isn't working out, though. Every time I have known someone take a job when the hiring process was wonky, it has turned out to be a bad situation. Likewise, everyone who has turned down such a job has learned later that accepting it would have been a mistake. Definitely their loss! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 I agree with everyone else. The 90 day "terminate without cause" law on the books in most states gives them the right to change their minds unless they signed a contract with you. But, I can understand a lawsuit if you gave notice and left your job and are now without income without even beginning the new job. If they asked you to give notice and gave you a start date, then there may be something on the books in your state that says they must let you start the job. In that case, you may have grounds for a suit. Were that the case, I'd only want a lump sum settlement for the loss and still go look for work elsewhere because they will be nothing but hostile employers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 I've an IRL friend whose son had this happen to him. they hired him, got the resume, saw where he got his undergrad (he also has a MA and a doc.) - and unhired him. he did not consider it worth pursing legal action. some questions to think about: do you have the resources to pursue it? - and if you did, what's the likelihood you'd collect? do you really want to work for what would be a hostile environment? would any payout you could possible receive, be worth being blacklisted in your industry because other companies would become reluctant to hire you? as lanny said, you can run it by an employment lawyer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 . If they unhired you after learning that you are Asian or old or Baptist, of course, that is another matter. and them unhiring you for any of those reasons and then being able to PROVE in court that was the reason are two different things. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 What they did really stinks, but what would you ultimately hope to achieve from a lawsuit? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanny Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Many years ago, I was working on a temporary contract assignment in Ohio. They hired a friend of mine for our group. He quit the assignment he was working on in Arizona, and they pulled a trailer with their horses.from AZ to OH. When he reported to begin working, they told him his contract had been cancelled. In that case, he did have a contract, but it was with the "Job Shop" and not with the Client. There was apparently no legal reason for them to pay compensation to him, but my Supervisor (a guy I was in contact with until he passed away several years ago, another Contractor) got them (probably the Client, possibly the "Job Shop") to make a cash payment to my friend, because he'd quit his assignment in AZ and was then unemployed in OH. As I recall, there was no legal obligation for them to compensate him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimm Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 I don't know the answer to your question but I do have a somewhat related weird situation. My mother was hired for a job, gave notice at her old job, went through the whole hiring process. She went to a training day at the new job, which she said went well and she got along with everyone and nothing weird happened. Then she showed up for her next shift and they said she wasn't on the schedule. Thinking maybe she'd gotten it wrong somehow, she went home and waited like a day for the next schedule to come out, and called and asked if she was on it. Nope. She tried to get the Director of Nursing, the woman who hired her, on the phone but she refused to take my mother's calls or return any messages. Eventually my mother left a message saying she would assume she no longer had a job unless the DON called her back and that was that. Fortunately her previous job was desperate to fill shifts and was glad to take her back. But that was the weirdest hired, then not hired situation I'd ever heard of. :p So you're not alone in these types of things. I think within the first 90 days, they can fire you for any reason whatsoever. At least, they can in TX. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 I don't know the answer to your question but I do have a somewhat related weird situation. My mother was hired for a job, gave notice at her old job, went through the whole hiring process. She went to a training day at the new job, which she said went well and she got along with everyone and nothing weird happened. Then she showed up for her next shift and they said she wasn't on the schedule. Thinking maybe she'd gotten it wrong somehow, she went home and waited like a day for the next schedule to come out, and called and asked if she was on it. Nope. She tried to get the Director of Nursing, the woman who hired her, on the phone but she refused to take my mother's calls or return any messages. Eventually my mother left a message saying she would assume she no longer had a job unless the DON called her back and that was that. Fortunately her previous job was desperate to fill shifts and was glad to take her back. But that was the weirdest hired, then not hired situation I'd ever heard of. :p So you're not alone in these types of things. I think within the first 90 days, they can fire you for any reason whatsoever. At least, they can in TX. Then again can't they essentially fire you at any time? They can always come up with some excuse. I suppose they better tread carefully with certain things, but there are probably always ways. And I think that stinks. Then again, they can't make you stay there either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted August 8, 2015 Author Share Posted August 8, 2015 I don't know much about employment law, but what would be the purpose of a lawsuit? I mostly am curious as to how much they messed up. Whether they are leaving themselves open to legal action by pulling this stunt. Without getting into identifiable details, I know these people. Socially. Initially, there was no way I was going to even consider taking the job, but they kept pushing. They're getting close to a deadline where they absolutely have to have someone, so I finally told them I'd consider it if they didn't come up with anyone. I was doing them a favor. Weeks went by, they still hadn't even had any applicants. Not a single one. So they told me they'd be happy to have me and I was still saying no. Then they got a single applicant. They hadn't interviewed her, but they offered me the job anyway. And begged me to take it. So I stupidly said yes. They sent out an email saying I was hired and they just needed a few things to put on file. They got those things and then started making excuses about how I didn't have "relevant experience" -- which just means they didn't even read my resume to see that I had plenty of it. I'm guessing some kind of strange palace coup happened in that 12 hour period (my best guess is the dept secretary was throwing her weight around. Not that she has any official power at all, but she likes to run the whole place and has everyone either running scared of her power or sucking up to her). Now I know these people messed up royally from a personal interaction standpoint. The chance of me ever wanting to see them in a social setting again is nil. The chance of me ever helping them on an unpaid basis as I have done in the past is even lower. I have no plan to pursue legal action. I don't even want to. I was just wondering. I'm just pretty angry and would like legal validation in my own mind if it's possible. If not, I can just go on being angry about their ethics. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Most states allow the employer to hire/fire at will. You didn't have a signed contract that listed ramifications for termination without cause, so there really isn't anything they did wrong legally. The worst think I can think of, is to say that you suffered losses (gave notice at another job, moved etc) but it doesn't sound like you did any of those things, so there isn't anything you can really sue them for. In our state, employers can fire you for any non-discriminatory reason, they just have to pay your unemployment if you file for it. Since you never started the job, I don't think you can even do this. Sorry, it sucks that they did this to you, but I don't think it was illegal in any way. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 I'm sorry the people were so disrespectful and unethical, not just because they were prospective employers but mainly because these are people you knew socially and whom you have helped for free in the past. What a rotten thing for them to have done. :angry: 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 In Texas anybody legally can be fired at any time with no reason given. Another bad thing about this messed up state. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Not illegal at all in most states. Until you're actually on the job, neither party owes the other unless certain contract language was signed off on. I've been there too, multiple times. Offer in place and accepted, and then they pulled it. The most recent was a little more than a year ago (state community college). Lawsuits can be long and expensive. There aren't many situations at all where I'd consider that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaVT Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Ugh, that's such a crappy situation. I'm sorry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimm Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Then again can't they essentially fire you at any time? They can always come up with some excuse. I suppose they better tread carefully with certain things, but there are probably always ways. And I think that stinks. Then again, they can't make you stay there either. This is what always confused me. If you want to fire someone because they're gay or black or female or Muslim, you can just do it, just don't be obvious about it. Yes, it sucks and yes, it's wrong but how do you prove it unless they're really clear about why. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimm Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 flyingiguana, they sound like complete jerks. :( I'm sorry they did that to you. Legal or not, it was a scummy thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 I do know someone that something similar happened - they received an offer letter with a start date, salary etc all laid out, they put in notice at their old job and then were told nevermind. They weren't able to sue or force them to hire her after all but she was able to collect unemployment for a little while until she found another job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 This is what always confused me. If you want to fire someone because they're gay or black or female or Muslim, you can just do it, just don't be obvious about it. Yes, it sucks and yes, it's wrong but how do you prove it unless they're really clear about why. Yeah I imagine it is hard to prove. Sometimes people manage to prove it, but that must be next to impossible many times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy g. Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 I'm sorry that happened to you. Sadly there are many similar stories on the "Ask a Manager" blog. It is interesting to read up on the subject, but depressing to see how often this happens and that legally, the employee rarely has a case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Depends on your state, but if you didn't have an employment contract (sometimes the written offer contains enough to act as an offer of a contract, but you must have made acceptance, all state law stuff) and you live in an at will employment state, no, there aren't grounds for an employment action. They didn't fire you for a protected reason. It sucks and they don't sound like nice people, but that's not grounds for suit. If you quit your job to accept theirs, you could have an unemployment claim. If you want to know for sure, look up a labor lawyer in your state. Consults are free. Usually they operate on contingent fee basis, so they won't take your case if they don't feel it's winnable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 An e-mail is not a contract. I was not legally hired at any of my jobs until all the papers were signed on both sides. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Wow, that must have been a shock! Sorry! I think it's odd that they never asked you for your resume before they hired you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 If you had a contract, you might have some grounds. In this case, sadly I don't think you do. You could try and negotiate a trial period.... say, "I know I haven't worked in my field in 10 years, but I think that if you gave me a one month, three month, whatever trial... you'd see that I was up to speed quickly." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanny Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 OP if strangers had done that to you it wouldn't have been nice of them. For people you know to have done that to you shows that they were not your friends and that they cannot be trusted. They talked you into wanting the position and then they pulled the rug out from under you. They are slime... 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Legally, I don't think you're actually hired until you've signed all of the employment paperwork, at which point you become an employee of the company and have some legal standing as an employee. It sounds like they worded it poorly. What you actually got was a job offer, a "we'd like to hire you," which was rescinded. On the personal level, that's a pretty crummy thing to do. I'd be pretty shocked. I did find myself wondering if they hired someone else because you were reluctant to take on the position and they knew that. Is it possible that it might have been a miscommunication about your willingness to take on the job? If you said you'd take it only if they couldn't find anyone else, and then they found someone else, maybe they thought that's what you wanted? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted August 8, 2015 Author Share Posted August 8, 2015 OP if strangers had done that to you it wouldn't have been nice of them. For people you know to have done that to you shows that they were not your friends and that they cannot be trusted. They talked you into wanting the position and then they pulled the rug out from under you. They are slime... Exactly. Fortunately, it was only a part time job so I never quit my real job. And I found out before I got in too deep that these folks were not people I wanted to work with. So I got off easy. I was just :glare: I wouldn't treat a stranger that way. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted August 8, 2015 Author Share Posted August 8, 2015 I did find myself wondering if they hired someone else because you were reluctant to take on the position and they knew that. Is it possible that it might have been a miscommunication about your willingness to take on the job? If you said you'd take it only if they couldn't find anyone else, and then they found someone else, maybe they thought that's what you wanted? Nope. They waited until I was completely on board and happy to be taking the position. Then they found someone else. Who, btw, hasn't yet been interviewed, let alone said she is interested in taking on the job. They HAVE to have someone by Aug 31. They've been looking all summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauraw4321 Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Haven't read the responses. It depends on what state you live in. Most states are employment at-will. That means you can be fired for no reason or any reason, so long as that reason is not banned by federal or state law (such as race, religion, national origin, sex). So, first research if you are an at-will state. If you are, then I'd say you are not in luck. Even if you are an at-will state, however, it's possible they created a contract or you could have some justifiable reliance (quasi contract theory) in the e-mail. It would have to include some specifics (salary, most importantly). You could potentially actual damages, or you could show that you relied on the offer and where somehow injured. All that to say, the only way to know for sure is to ask a lawyer. Call your local state bar and they generally have a referral service of lawyers who will give you a free or discounted initial consultation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauraw4321 Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Read the responses - contracts can and are created all the time through e-mail, or even verbally. There are also implied contracts. Just because you didn't "sign on the dotted line" doesn't mean that there isn't a contract or some quasi-contract theory that can be used for a lawsuit. You could google quantum meruit, promissory estoppel for some ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Nope. They waited until I was completely on board and happy to be taking the position. Then they found someone else. Who, btw, hasn't yet been interviewed, let alone said she is interested in taking on the job. They HAVE to have someone by Aug 31. They've been looking all summer. maybe they really don't want someone . . . . . (no matter the reason they have to have one by aug 31.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pehp Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 If there's a contract, you have a chance. If not, you would be an at-will employee and can be terminated at any time (as long as it's not for an improper reason!). That's the general rule of thumb. You may wish to talk to an attorney just to explore your options, but I don't think you'll have much luck in this scenario w/ the facts you've offered. Sorry for the disappointment--! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted August 9, 2015 Author Share Posted August 9, 2015 I do live in an at-will state -- but I also have what appears to be a quasi-contract : an email stating salary, defined term of employment (a semester), and duties. (Along with a cheery "welcome aboard!"). I didn't sign, but they definitely offered. So it looks like there might be grounds for a case. Not that I'm going to sue. Given that this was for an adjunct faculty position it hardly seems worth the financial effort to sue. I just want to feel vindicated that maybe they really did mess up. That they weren't just jerks but stupid jerks. Seeing how my year has been going otherwise, I need to occasionally feel justified in being angry about some of the things that have happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammie Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 An e-mail is not a contract. I was not legally hired at any of my jobs until all the papers were signed on both sides. Not a completed contract...but an email can be an offer. If there was acceptance of the offer then you could have a completed contract. Just didn't want people to start thinking that you couldn't form a contract over email....once there is agreement on the terms you are pretty close to a contract. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Not here, no. They can let you go at any time. You are justifiably angry as it's wrong to do what they did, but I don't know about legally wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daria Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I've been involved in 2 situations like this. In one case, I interviewed with a husband/wife team who ran a private school. Wife called me back and offered me the job. Then 2 days later, after I had cancelled other interviews, she called me and told me her husband had offered it to another candidate. I was upset, but just walked away, and ended up finding another position. In the other situation, I was the hiring manager. There was someone who worked part time in our organization with whom I was very impressed. They didn't have a degree, and I became involved in helping them get one, e.g. pointing them towards free programs in our field, writing recommendations. A full time position opened up that I supervised where a degree was listed as a requirement, but I advocated with H.R. to waive the requirement, and offered it to the person. Three months later, after a shift in H.R. personnel, and after the start of the school year when jobs in education get much harder to find, the new H.R. person asked everyone in that position to submit a copy of their diploma. When she said she didn't have one, they accused her of lying and tried to fire her. I told them repeatedly that she had never lied, and that there was lots of documentation that she had specifically told me, such as the college recommendation letters that I had written. For a while, I thought they were going to fire me for not telling them she didn't have a degree, even though I had. I showed them the email where I had forwarded her resume, which didn't list a degree, but they argued I couldn't prove that I had "flagged" the problem. Again, I had, but the conversation had been verbal. Eventually they dropped it, and offered her a lower paid job, which she accepted. It turned out that the grant that funded the position specified a college degree. The H.R. person should never have agreed to waive the requirement. It was 100% the organization's fault. Unfortunately, having an incompetent H.R. person is not a protected class, and they legally could have fired her since we are an at will state. My guess is that you'll find the same thing is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I do live in an at-will state -- but I also have what appears to be a quasi-contract : an email stating salary, defined term of employment (a semester), and duties. (Along with a cheery "welcome aboard!"). I didn't sign, but they definitely offered. So it looks like there might be grounds for a case. Not that I'm going to sue. Given that this was for an adjunct faculty position it hardly seems worth the financial effort to sue. I just want to feel vindicated that maybe they really did mess up. That they weren't just jerks but stupid jerks. Seeing how my year has been going otherwise, I need to occasionally feel justified in being angry about some of the things that have happened. It would come down to whether they revoked the offer before you accepted, whether there are damages, and of course, state specific law. Employment cases typically are handled on a contingent fee basis, so it wouldn't cost you anything out of pocket to pursue. So many things are negotiated by email these days. Signing with an actual pen on paper isn't required in many cases. I definitely vote stupid jerks! :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Not a completed contract...but an email can be an offer. If there was acceptance of the offer then you could have a completed contract. Just didn't want people to start thinking that you couldn't form a contract over email....once there is agreement on the terms you are pretty close to a contract. OK. But every corporate job I've had involved me having to go to payroll and sign forms in order for them to formally have me on their payroll, including paperwork on benefits as well. I always figured that that was the time when I was truly hired - not when I got the "you're hired" phone call or e-mail, because that was when I was formally on their books as an employee. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammie Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Correct - and those are also important signs of agreement to those specific terms, benefits, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 It's perfectly legal in most states because of "at will" employment laws. I'm mostly just curious. I have an email telling me I was hired for a job. They asked that I send a resume as a formality so it could be on file with the human resources dept. It says in the email that my resume is only a formality. Once they received the resume, they suddenly "found" that I hadn't had a job in this exact field for 10 yrs. They knew this long before but somehow chose to forget. But it was suddenly grounds for not wanting me anymore. They're now interviewing someone else. So, if I have a letter (an email) telling me I was hired, is their sudden turn around grounds for a lawsuit? I'm mostly just wondering exactly how dysfunctional this place is. Did they open themselves up for legal action? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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