I feel for Bruce Jenner.

[Guest]

One does not need to assume that because someone else disagrees with their lifestyle choices, that they are automatically mean or hateful. I've said it before on here and I will say it again. People who aren't Christians and don't follow the Bible will never understand why Christians feel the way they do about certain things. I am never hateful or rude to someone no matter what their choices. That doesn't mean I have to agree 100% with what they do and how they choose to live. Free speech these days only applies to people who aren't Christians clearly.

You made a cruel statement suggesting transgender people are just looking for attention.

 

And no one is taking away your right to free speech. How ridiculous.

 

And I'm pretty sure you are just bored and pot-stirring so I'm ignoring you now.

[Joker]

nm

[Lang Syne Boardie]

One does not need to assume that because someone else disagrees with their lifestyle choices, that they are automatically mean or hateful.  I've said it before on here and I will say it again.  People who aren't Christians and don't follow the Bible will never understand why Christians feel the way they do about certain things.  I am never hateful or rude to someone no matter what their choices.  That doesn't mean I have to agree 100% with what they do and how they choose to live.  Free speech these days only applies to people who aren't Christians clearly.

 

 

I guess we should just go elsewhere (like a lot of Christians have) since all kinds of assumptions are being made about us on here.  God loves all people no matter what ... that is true... that is why He wants all people to do what is right and live in a way that is pleasing to Him. 

 

 

I think it is cruel that people aren't allowed to disagree with someone's lifestyle.  I think it is cruel how most of the people on this board have something against Christians just because we believe what the Bible teaches.  If I were Buddhist NO one would have a problem with anything I said.

 

In this thread, as is typical, some or even most of the people gasping at the heartlessness of your posts are themselves Christian.

 

Just so you know.

[Heatherwith4]

Luanne, I would say that many of the posters on this thread are Christians. (Um, I am.) No one is trying to take away anyone's free speech, Christian or otherwise.

 

Do you really think that if someone told Jesus about their transgender child, that he would react by insinuating that their child had eaten the wrong foods or done drugs or been molested?

[Corraleno]

One does not need to assume that because someone else disagrees with their lifestyle choices, that they are automatically mean or hateful.  I've said it before on here and I will say it again.  People who aren't Christians and don't follow the Bible will never understand why Christians feel the way they do about certain things. 

 

I think it is cruel that people aren't allowed to disagree with someone's lifestyle.  I think it is cruel how most of the people on this board have something against Christians just because we believe what the Bible teaches.  If I were Buddhist NO one would have a problem with anything I said.

 

 

FYI, Bruce Jenner IS a Christian — he is also a Republican, which is why Sadie made the comment upthread.

 

Claiming that he is putting himself through this very painful and traumatic process just to "get attention" is at best rude and obnoxious, and at worst purposeful pot stirring. Claiming that you're being persecuted by those who are anti-Christian, when most of the people calling you out on it are Christians, simply reinforces the impression that YOU are the one who is "just looking for attention."

[LucyStoner]

One does not need to assume that because someone else disagrees with their lifestyle choices, that they are automatically mean or hateful. I've said it before on here and I will say it again. People who aren't Christians and don't follow the Bible will never understand why Christians feel the way they do about certain things. I am never hateful or rude to someone no matter what their choices. That doesn't mean I have to agree 100% with what they do and how they choose to live. Free speech these days only applies to people who aren't Christians clearly.

You think it is ok to insinuate to a poster here that her trans child may have been molested? I think that, from a different poster besides yourself, is what most people were responding to. I really don't think people were paying much attention to you linking this to balloon boy antics.

[LucyStoner]

I think it is cruel that people aren't allowed to disagree with someone's lifestyle. I think it is cruel how most of the people on this board have something against Christians just because we believe what the Bible teaches. If I were Buddhist NO one would have a problem with anything I said.

If it is any consolation to you, I am not a Christian and a lot of people have problems with different things I say.

 

And if no one ever disagreed with a word out of my mouth I am probably not saying anything worth hearing.

 

Most of the people on this board are Christian. Probably even most on this thread who disagree with you are Christian. You do not have a monopoly on Christianity or the right to say that those who disagree with you aren't actually Christians. You do this a lot.

[dirty ethel rackham]

One does not need to assume that because someone else disagrees with their lifestyle choices, that they are automatically mean or hateful.  I've said it before on here and I will say it again.  People who aren't Christians and don't follow the Bible will never understand why Christians feel the way they do about certain things.  I am never hateful or rude to someone no matter what their choices.  That doesn't mean I have to agree 100% with what they do and how they choose to live.  Free speech these days only applies to people who aren't Christians clearly.

I am a Christian and I am the loving mother of a trans teen, struggling (and most days, succeeding) to accept how God made my child.  But, then again, I don't believe the Bible is a weapon to abuse people with.  I am a Christian, exercising my right to free speech and my right to call out ignorance when I see it. 

[Audrey]

*cough* BS *cough*

 

And in Forest Gump's words "That's all I have to say about that"

 

 

Whoa!  WTF is up with that crap!?! :blink:

[Audrey]

I guess we should just go elsewhere (like a lot of Christians have) since all kinds of assumptions are being made about us on here.  God loves all people no matter what ... that is true... that is why He wants all people to do what is right and live in a way that is pleasing to Him. 

 

 

Is that your swan song / flounce post? 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I think it is cruel that people aren't allowed to disagree with someone's lifestyle.  I think it is cruel how most of the people on this board have something against Christians just because we believe what the Bible teaches.  If I were Buddhist NO one would have a problem with anything I said.

 

Yes, we would.  Your comments were cruel and you have been called out for what you said not for your religion.

 

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Did she ask whether he ever used steroids?  I didn't see the whole interview.  That is an important question. 

 

 

 

 

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

In doing some genealogy on my husband's family, I came across a distant relative who was a sufragette and associate of Jane Addams. She lived a very interesting life, all signs indicate that she was outside the sexual and gender norms of the era. She is mentioned in this article and a portrait of her is shown (Dr. Cornelia de Bey).

http://www.wbez.org/series/curious-city/should-we-use-l-word-jane-addams-108619

 

This is nothing new. I wish acceptance and understanding.

[clementine]

Man, I am so looking forward to the day when people merely wish transgender people well with their transition. You don't have to understand it. You just have to respect the person doing the transitioning. I don't care if this person, who I hadn't heard of until standing in the grocery store line yesterday, wants to be called 'he' and be called Bruce and be in the woman's body that represents his gender identity.  That's fine. He's an adult, living an authentic life and may very well, by being publicly honest about his experiences, be helping and supporting others struggling with their gender identity.

 

Existential threats to society are not coming from Bruce. 

 

:iagree:

 

I think he is just doing this to get attention.  He has received attention his entire life for various things he was doing and now he isn't doing anything noteworthy, so he does this so people will pay attention to him.

 

I disagree.  

 

 

[Tsuga]

I think that it is one thing to be a feminine man, and another to be a male-bodied woman. It is a spectrum.

 

That's my observation. I could be wrong, but that is what people seem to say.

 

I don't think transgender people would cease to exist if we accepted all people, just like even if we accepted more neurodiversity, some people who are autistic would still face discord in their own lives, and need medical help to function.

[Luanne]

Saying that I think a famous person is making something up is not hateful or hurtful.  I think a lot of famous people make stuff up for various reasons.  Also, everyone who thinks they are a Christian, isn't one.  Just because one was born in America or goes to church every Sunday doesn't automatically make one a Christian.  You have to have accepted Jesus into your heart and do your best to follow the teachings of the Bible.

[LucyStoner]

Saying that I think a famous person is making something up is not hateful or hurtful. I think a lot of famous people make stuff up for various reasons. Also, everyone who thinks they are a Christian, isn't one. Just because one was born in America or goes to church every Sunday doesn't automatically make one a Christian. You have to have accepted Jesus into your heart and do your best to follow the teachings of the Bible.

Are you saying that the Christians on this thread who disagree with you aren't actually Christians? If you are saying that, why not just say it instead of continuously hint it?

 

That is not your call, Luanne.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Saying that I think a famous person is making something up is not hateful or hurtful.  I think a lot of famous people make stuff up for various reasons.  Also, everyone who thinks they are a Christian, isn't one.  Just because one was born in America or goes to church every Sunday doesn't automatically make one a Christian.  You have to have accepted Jesus into your heart and do your best to follow the teachings of the Bible.

 

Yes, it is hateful.

 

And when did you become the arbiter of what makes a person a "real Christian"?

 

 

 

Stop playing the poor persecuted Christian card when hate is called out, it is unbecoming of a "true Christian".

[Guest]

Are you saying that the Christians on this thread who disagree with you aren't actually Christians? If you are saying that, why not just say it instead of continuously hint it?

 

That is not your call, Luanne.

Why the surprise?? She has said this several times.

[Corraleno]

Saying that I think a famous person is making something up is not hateful or hurtful.  I think a lot of famous people make stuff up for various reasons.  Also, everyone who thinks they are a Christian, isn't one.  Just because one was born in America or goes to church every Sunday doesn't automatically make one a Christian.  You have to have accepted Jesus into your heart and do your best to follow the teachings of the Bible.

 

Bruce's ex-wife has said he told her decades ago that he was trans, and had felt that way all his life. He actually started transitioning back when he was a world-famous athlete and certainly didn't need to do something extremely difficult, that would open him up to ridicule (from people like you), in order to "get attention." 

 

But apparently you have superpowers that allow you to know that (1) Bruce is lying about how he's felt his entire life, and (2) that Bruce, and many people on this thread who disagree with you, are "not true Christians."  

 

Maybe you should look a little deeper into that heart that you claim is so full of Jesus and see if you can find some humility and compassion there.

[HRAAB]

Oh dear.

At this point, I think this is the safest thing to say.

[LucyStoner]

Why the surprise?? She has said this several times.

You may be mistaking my generalized, low level of irritation for surprise. :)

[Guest]

You may be mistaking my generalized, low level of irritation for surprise. :)

Well, it is late, I'm off my game a bit.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Saying that I think a famous person is making something up is not hateful or hurtful.  I think a lot of famous people make stuff up for various reasons.  Also, everyone who thinks they are a Christian, isn't one.  Just because one was born in America or goes to church every Sunday doesn't automatically make one a Christian.  You have to have accepted Jesus into your heart and do your best to follow the teachings of the Bible.

 

Alrighty then.

 

 

 

[umsami]

One thing I found interesting from the interview is that they were talking about Bruce's faith....and cross-dressing...and how that differed....and they interviewed somebody else who brought up a passage from Deuteronomy (I think) which basically says men should not wear women's garments and vice-versa.  And he said, the reason that's in there, is because it was happening.  God doesn't prohibit stuff that doesn't go on....there's no need.  

For me, at least, that was a really important realization....that things like transgendered people, cross dressing, LGBT folks....they've always existed.  Always.  You can't legislate these things away...either secularly or religiously.  In most societies, it has not been a good thing to be gay or transgendered....and yet.... that didn't stop it.  I really do not think you can choose this.  And if one could....because of all the negative implications.....I mean think of it, jail, sometimes death, at minimum social ostracism....why would one.  

 

So if that's the case, then acceptance and love are the only options, IMHO.

[umsami]

dp

[Ravin]

I watched Jenner's interview this evening. It was very thoughtfully done, and I liked the way the personal bits were interspersed with the education background issues that provided context.

 

And the parts with his kids spurred DD to talk with me about my transition. It hasn't been 100% smooth for her to adjust to, but my kids are my best allies.

 

It's good to see a positive story out there.

[HRAAB]

[quote name="Luanne" post="6320194" timestamp="

 

Also, everyone who thinks they are a Christian, isn't one. Just because one was born in America or goes to church every Sunday doesn't automatically make one a Christian. You have to have accepted Jesus into your heart and do your best to follow the teachings of the Bible.

 

That's right, Luanne, and important for ALL Christians to remember. Just because one says they're a Christian, that they've accepted Jesus into their heart, does their best to follow the teachings of the bible, and frequently reminds others of these facts doesn't automatically make them a Christian. Unless you have God-like bionic eyes, maybe you should keep your human eyes on your own heart and let God deal with the rest.

[clementine]

Maybe we can just have compassion, whether we agree with his decision or not.  

 

I am a Christian and I wish him peace no matter what his future holds.  

 

“The whole purpose of religion is to facilitate love and compassion, patience, tolerance, humility, and forgiveness.†― Dalai Lama XIV

[Jenny in Florida]

I think it is cruel that people aren't allowed to disagree with someone's lifestyle.  I think it is cruel how most of the people on this board have something against Christians just because we believe what the Bible teaches.  If I were Buddhist NO one would have a problem with anything I said.

 

There are lots of ways to be a Christian.

 

I attend a Christian church -- a fairly large one that belongs to a mainline Protestant denomination. Members there also believe what the Bible teaches, and their beliefs don't match yours on this or on many other issues. 

 

And on the flip side, I would have just as much discomfort with a Buddhist or Muslim or Jew who spoke out in hurtful and completely unnecessary ways.

 

I don't find religion -- any religion -- an acceptable defense for insensitivity or cruelty.

[Jenny in Florida]

There are many things people don't agree with or believe in whether they do or do not have experience with it.

 

I've never cheated on my husband, but I still view adultery as wrong too. (Or to rephrase, I don't agree with or believe in adultery and also think it is wrong.)

 

The presumption that knowing someone means people would change their opinion to agree with this is also in error.

 

Cheating on one's spouse is an action.

 

Being LGBT is part of who a person is.

 

The analogy is faulty, to say the least.

[Jenny in Florida]

No idea whether it can or not.  We know it is linked to cancer.

 

Who knows what kind of mental disorders it may create?  We just don't know. 

But it isn't normal for a 65 year old man to suddenly say he wants to become a woman, even if he had been drawn to women's clothing and all through the years.  It doesn't happen every day.  Why did it happen here?  

 

It might make no sense to you, but the body is very much impacted by the crap you put into it, and we are seeing the results of that now, with 70 percent of Americans being overweight, and having massive disease.  More medicines, less health.  We are doing something wrong.  Why is it beyond the scope of questioning that Bruce could have been affected by any number of things? 

 

The folks who watched the interview and those of us who took the time to read any of the coverage from reputable news sources are aware this isn't "sudden." Bruce has apparently been on this journey for decades. He actually began hormone therapy more than 30 years ago but stopped when he met the woman who became his second wife.

[Jenny in Florida]

Ok, I see your sarcasm here.  But I'm assuming you didn't raise your child in a bubble.  You also don't know each and every experience that child ever had in childhood and teen years.   Everything isn't about what you did.   I'm sure you did everything right that you could, as we all do.   And things still happen to our kids sometimes. 

 

My parents did everything "right" too, and some creep still molested me in a theater one time when I was 11.  Not my parents' fault and I never even told them.    It is just an experience that I had.  In this case I don't *think* it particularly affected me, but if I were a different person, I may have had an entirely different reaction to this or some other kind of experience I had along the way. 

 

You only know what she/he told you (I don't know which you have). 

 

The insensitivity and general nastiness of this literally took my breath away.

 

Ellen -- I'm so sorry you had to see this. I'm sending you hugs.

[Tsuga]

All the law and commandments can be summed up as love your neighbor as yourself and love your lord with all your heart. And god is love.

 

That is the Christian religion right there. Gospel of John, I believe, and of course the words of Jesus himself.

 

That is why as a Christian I had no problem with love.

 

Adultery is hate, it is a lie, it is hurt.

 

When I was a child, I thought like a child. Now I have love. She who has not love is a clanging cymbal. Empty.

[Jenny in Florida]

FYI- many of us posting in the thread in support of Jenner are Christians.

 

Personally, I dislike other Christians using the Bible or religious doctrine to hurt others.

 

Ironically, Bruce Jenner is a Christian.

[Jenny in Florida]

I think it is cruel that people aren't allowed to disagree with someone's lifestyle.  I think it is cruel how most of the people on this board have something against Christians just because we believe what the Bible teaches.  If I were Buddhist NO one would have a problem with anything I said.

 

You are allowed to disagree.

 

You are also allowed to say you disagree.

 

What you are not allowed to do is to say you disagree and expect others not to tell you they disagree with you.

[Jenny in Florida]

Saying that I think a famous person is making something up is not hateful or hurtful.  I think a lot of famous people make stuff up for various reasons.  Also, everyone who thinks they are a Christian, isn't one.  Just because one was born in America or goes to church every Sunday doesn't automatically make one a Christian.  You have to have accepted Jesus into your heart and do your best to follow the teachings of the Bible.

 

So, what about people who have done those things and simply disagree with you about what those teachings teach?

 

Are you comfortable being the one who gets to decide they are wrong?

 

What would Jesus have to say about that?

[Audrey]

nm 

 

Edited April 26, 2015 by Susan Wise Bauer
That seems like picking a fight.

[KathyBC]

Are you ignoring or unfamiliar with Bruce's actual celebrity history? Bruce's fame predates "reality TV" by decades.

 

 

Oh, I'm old enough to know who he is. I doubt being an Olympic athlete 30 years ago is bringing in Kardashian-level dollars, however.

[LucyStoner]

Oh, I'm old enough to know who he is. I doubt being an Olympic athlete 30 years ago is bringing in Kardashian-level dollars, however.

Apparently, Jenner has a net worth on his own, apart from the Kardashians, of around $100 million. He started or bought several businesses in the wake of his Olympic win, including an aviation company and a company which makes informercials. He's not hurting for money.

[Joanne]

I didn't read her as saying what you are suggesting at all though.  It sounded to me like all she was saying plenty of transgendered people aren't sport and have never taken steroids, so that is not a good explanation.  I didn't read her as saying no gay people are athelitic or even that it wasn't common. 

 

I hope they worked it out, but I did want to post that I read it that way also. Not that she was reinforcing a stereotype but refuting the "steroids" theory AND that she was talking about her personal circle, not the celebrities she is aware of.

 

The poster has consistently been an informed supporter of sexual minority issues, so that likely influenced the lens through which I read the post and intent.

 

 

[Laura Corin]

In case people would like another example: boxing promoter Kellie Maloney

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/boxing/32435076

[Tsuga]

I think it is cruel that people aren't allowed to disagree with someone's lifestyle. I think it is cruel how most of the people on this board have something against Christians just because we believe what the Bible teaches. If I were Buddhist NO one would have a problem with anything I said.

Not true. I am pretty sure Katie knows I am an atheist but when she believed I was making a foolish generalization about nonCIS gendered people she totally called me out on it. I think I was misunderstood but you can't say she picked on me for being religious or a Christian.

[LucyStoner]

Not true. I am pretty sure Katie knows I am an atheist but when she believed I was making a foolish generalization about nonCIS gendered people she totally called me out on it. I think I was misunderstood but you can't say she picked on me for being religious or a Christian.

No, I was definitely picking on you for your religious beliefs because that's the only kind of persecution that ever happens. BTW, you must be a Christian since only Christians are ever picked on.

 

I totally jest.

 

Please know that my responses to your comment about gays and trans people (that you know) not being athletic, while admittedly over sensitive, came from a real place. My intent was not to pick on you at all but I do admit it's a somewhat hot button for me. I just reached a point as a young person where I was tired of the lesbian jokes for being a ball player and it was really hard to see what my brother struggled with. I am sorry to make such a deal out of it though. It wasn't necessary.

 

Back to jesting, I also have to wonder who you know up here to know zero athletic people. This is the land where we are doing sporty shit year round. Meet me at a derby bout girl. I don't like cupcakes, but I'll buy you a beer.

[LucyStoner]

I watched the interview on Hulu. He seems remarkably genuine, not just in his transition but as a person. I also more than before don't think that this could be a publicity stunt.

 

I just seriously doubt the man's ex wives, sister, octogenarian mother and his 6 kids (four on the interview, 2 with a supportive statement) would all go in that convincingly for some sort of fakery.

 

I definitely wish him well.

[Catwoman]

I watched the interview on Hulu. He seems remarkably genuine, not just in his transition but as a person. I also more than before don't think that this could be a publicity stunt.

 

I just seriously doubt the man's ex wives, sister, octogenarian mother and his 6 kids (four on the interview, 2 with a supportive statement) would all go in that convincingly for some sort of fakery.

 

I definitely wish him well.

:iagree:

 

He seems like a genuinely nice person.

 

I always felt like he got dragged into the crazy Kardashian publicity machine against his will. He never seemed comfortable with all of the attention. I hope he is able to live the rest of his life on his own terms and that he will be very happy.

[Audrey]

I watched the interview on Hulu. He seems remarkably genuine, not just in his transition but as a person. I also more than before don't think that this could be a publicity stunt.

 

I just seriously doubt the man's ex wives, sister, octogenarian mother and his 6 kids (four on the interview, 2 with a supportive statement) would all go in that convincingly for some sort of fakery.

 

I definitely wish him well.

 

 

I find his mother's statement the most touching.  He is blessed to have her.

[Word Nerd]

Meet me at a derby bout girl. I don't like cupcakes, but I'll buy you a beer.

 

Cool. The city where we used to live had a derby team. Several times I almost went to one of their recruiting classes but always chickened out. I love skating but not pain.

[umsami]

The one thing I don't get about Bruce Jenner....I mean he seems like a really nice guy....is that he basically walked away from his other kids when he married Kris.  I'm guessing she played a part, but still.  His second wife also said she gave up alimony and child support when they divorced.  I wonder if she thought he would fly off for a sex change and never be heard from again.

 

I wonder if his whole transition is part of what seems to be to me his hands-off parenting to his youngest daughter.....who seems to have been basically without a parent the past two years.  

 

His second wife Linda Thompson's letter/statement is an interesting read.  I'll also say....Elvis, Bruce Jenner, David Foster....dang.... that's some line up. ;)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/linda-thompson/bruce-jenner-linda-thompson_b_7080918.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

 

 

 

 

 

[Tsuga]

No, I was definitely picking on you for your religious beliefs because that's the only kind of persecution that ever happens. BTW, you must be a Christian since only Christians are ever picked on.

 

I totally jest.

 

Please know that my responses to your comment about gays and trans people (that you know) not being athletic, while admittedly over sensitive, came from a real place. My intent was not to pick on you at all but I do admit it's a somewhat hot button for me. I just reached a point as a young person where I was tired of the lesbian jokes for being a ball player and it was really hard to see what my brother struggled with. I am sorry to make such a deal out of it though. It wasn't necessary.

 

Back to jesting, I also have to wonder who you know up here to know zero athletic people. This is the land where we are doing sporty shit year round. Meet me at a derby bout girl. I don't like cupcakes, but I'll buy you a beer.

I know fit people but no high school jock types who are gay. I mean in my circle, what, maybe 5-10% are gay or trans? Maybe? More likely 5%.

 

Combine that with the likelihood of being a high school jock who now works in humanitarian aid and what can I say, it's a low number.

 

I was in no way trying to say you can't be athletic but that it's not a cause of not being straight/CIS particularly as far as steroid use is concerned...

 

Maybe we have a different idea of who's on steroids though. My impression was that it's not the gals I'm running the st. Patty's dash with but who knows.