I feel for Bruce Jenner.

[LucyStoner]

I don't think she would say it to anyone's face, but if she did, I agree it would be totally out of line.

 

What I meant was that I suspect she doesn't know any transgendered people, so she can't wrap her mind around it. I don't think she is trying to be mean. I think she truly does not understand that being transgendered is a reality and is not a mental illness. I think if she spent some time with your brother or my best friend, she would realize that she was wrong about the whole thing.

 

My friend's own mom thought there was "no such thing" as being transgendered at first, and it was her own adult child who was telling her about it and she was generally a pretty open-minded woman, so I try to keep that in mind when someone says they don't think it's real. I don't think it solves anything by telling someone they are hateful, but it could be helpful to share our own experiences with that person to try to help them understand that they are mistaken.

While I don't disagree fully and totally agree there's no need to argue with people, I do see it a bit differently. We have on this board:

 

-transgendered members

-members married to transgendered people

-members with transgendered children

-members who have other close relatives who are trans.

 

If it is ok to post that transgenderedness is a delusion, I think it is also ok to post that calling who someone is delusional verges into rudeness. When I have read what I consider rude comments about Christianity here (some by posters I like) I have noted that the posters are often called out as rude and hateful. Because even if no one is calling a Christian delusional to their face, it is considered rude to call out Christians where there are Christians. There are also plenty of trans people or people who love trans people here.

 

As for if spending time with a trans person will change someone's mind, I dunno. I think some people are entrenched. My brother has two neighbors who are and they don't even know he's trans, they just don't like a gay couple living nearby. Crimson lives in the Bay Area. It's probably safe to say that she has come across more than one trans person IRL. I don't think she would change her mind really nor do I think she needs to. We are still should try to be nice and labeling something "delusional" isn't nice.

 

I have strong opinions, some might even say biases, about couples with large age gaps and about polyamory. I try to keep my thoughts to myself or framed as "I don't understand" rather than "x people are..." I don't always succeed, but I do try.

[LibraryLover]

Diane Sawyer seemed more shocked about that than anything else!   :lol:

I didn't see the interview, but I just read about this. I am also shocked.

[Bluegoat]

I think you might change your mind if a longtime friend or a family member was transgendered. It is a tough concept to identify with, and it can be hard to accept, but I truly believe that if you saw it in person and it was someone with whom you had a close relationship, you would feel differently.

 

I do understand that many people have a difficult time believing it's a "real thing," though, and I don't think most of them are trying to be hateful, mean, or insulting. I know you aren't that kind of person at all, so please don't think I'm calling you names or insinuating that you are a bad person because you don't believe that people can be transgendered. I just think you would change your mind about it if you had more personal experience with transgendered people.

 

I think actually it is possible to think its real, and also not want to say it is a matter of being trapped in the wrong body, or that the person is actuall a member of the other sex.

 

I would say for example that I think there are, in many cases at least, biological reasons for people to feel that way.  That seems to be what the evidence points to and I think it is what people describe about their experience.  There are even cases where it has happened temporarily as a result of something else.  And then there are people who feel like they are somehow in the wrong body, or that their body is wrong, but it isn't attached to sex.  So - similar effects maybe with different causes, or in some cases maybe related causes.  But in any case there seems to be a group of people who persistantly feel like they are in a body of the wrong sex.  There are some ideas about what might cause this, but they are not well understood.

 

I would be very hesitant to say that such a person is in fact a woman/man trapped in the body of the opposite sex.  For one thing,  could you perhaps equally say that it is the right body of a man/woman and the mind or brain is wrong?  What are we suggesting here - that the brain is more important than the body or makes us what we are more than the body?  I don't think that, and in any case I think biology is not clearly indicating that we could be confident about that idea.  Is the suggetion that we have some kind of spiritual gender apart from our physical body and brain?  I would not dismiss that but it isn't the way medicine and psychology normally think about things and propose solutions and I tend to think there is good reason for that.  I also wonder - we tend to think people who feel they are in the wrong body, when it is not connected to gender, have a serious problem that we should try and learn to resolve to give them some relief.  But we don't usually think that there is in fact anything wrong with their bodies.  How do we account for the difference in approach? 

 

I don't think there is actually enough information about what causes people to experience this to make definitive statements, but I would be inclined to say - feeling like you are trapped in the bod of the wrong sex does not make you a member of that sex.  It means you feel like you should be the opposite sex.  It may even be that some parts of teh brain or other systems are feminized, and then I think I would say - so you are a man who has some feminized parts of your brain and so it makes ou feel this particular way.  Feelings are real, your brain is real, but so is the body you are born with, I am not of the view that we can choose one or the other as what we "really" are.  There are of course people where it is ver difficult to say one way or the other because of teh complications the have, in which case I suppose the most accurate thing would be to describe the situation in some detail.

 

I think the real difficulty is that it is rather difficult to present oneself that way, because it would be complicated and really no ones business anyway.  I think people have to make the best of the situation for their circumstances.  I do think though, that is is important whatever is done to remain fairl clear headed about what is going on, because it impacts how we will weight different approaches, and especially perhaps when it comes to thins like persuing treatments or research.  If we think that the problem is that a woman is trapped in a mans body, the solution seems to be give her a different body. If that isn't how we conceptualize it, other solutions may seem to make more sense.

[swellmomma]

My 15 year old dd is gay. She's never been on drugs to "mess her up".

exactly, my dd15 is bisexual and also never been on drugs to "mess her up"

 

I recently learned that there is a boy in the high school I work in that was born female.  When his family moved here he decided now was the time to be who he really is and moved here as a male.  I only know because I was talking to the mom of one of my dd's good friends and this young man had taken dd's friend on a date and during that date came out and told her the truth.  THe mom was a flutter of whether or not she should allow her dd to go on a 2nd date with this boy.  After she and I talked she will allow it, and now my dd is eager to ask her friend who it is because she wants to meet him and have someone else to talk to that is different sexually from all the other teens she knows.  He is a clean cut, nice boy who also did not use drugs to mess him up.  He just happens to have a supportive family that helped him make the switch when they moved, from what I understand he is planning to start the formal transition once he is over 18 and out of high school. 

[Bluegoat]

That's not what I was saying. I wasn't addressing mental illness in general.

 

I do not believe that transgendered people are mentally ill or that they have any kind of disorder.

 

I do believe mental illness and other disorders exist and that many of them can be successfully treated. But I don't think that has anything to do with transgender.

 

But what would you call it then?  What do ou think causes it?

 

It seems to be related to brain function and many think it relates to an atypical early developmental process in teh fetus - so an abnormal development of the brain.  IIRC there is some evidence in males it may have some genetic factor.

 

It's pretty uncomfortable and distressing to the person who has it and can affect daily living in a serious way. 

 

Usually we would say something like this is some kind of illness or disorder, whether or not there is any way to fix it.  And it seems to be located in the brain of the affected person.

 

I really can't see calling it just a difference, like being left handed, because the effects are so much greater and more difficult.

[swellmomma]

Same-sex attraction isn't thinking that you're actually a woman trapped in a man's body.

 

Anabolic steroids are typically testosterone or artificial androgens. Taking large doses of them and then stopping could absolutely mess someone up hormonally.

I have high testosterone and androgens for unknown reason, many with PCOS have high male hormones and yet none of us feel like men trapped in women's bodies, we have grow beards naturally and many have issues with fertility and menses but not with feeling like they should be a guy. Women going through menopause also have higher testosterone as their estrogen levels drop dramatically and they also do not suddenly decide they are actually dudes. I do not see the connection there at all.  The hormones being out of whack do affect you for sure, but not to the point of changing who you are at your core.

[LucyStoner]

You have taken my post completely out of context.

 

I was not making a claim about the athleticism of gay and transgender people in general. As it happens my friends (gay, straight, trans, and who the hell cares) are mostly nerdy and while we work out none of us is particularly athletic at all.

 

My point was to bolster a PP's point that the claim that Jenner 'might be transgender due to earlier steroid abuse' is unfounded and nonsensical.

 

Because even without looking at the science, many of us know lots of people who are not CIS gendered who have had nothing to do with steroids or athletics, period.

 

Please at least take the posts in context. If allies start arguing among themselves over every statement, including, "The last gay person I worked with was Catholic" -> "Well not all gay people are Catholic" we are really going to lose this fight.

 

I am sorry for not providing enough context for my statement, though. I do stand by it and its relevance, because while irrelevant to generalize to the whole group from a sub-population, a large counterexample is a good way to object to an unfounded generalization. I don't think that I need to explain why but I will if that is not clear.

I don't see how being an ally puts anyone above being reminded when we are saying bs things. You can make your point (there is zero evidence linking steroid use to being trans) without relating it to you personally not knowing athletic gay people. The lol and such just seemed to reinforce the sterotype that gay people aren't athletic. No, the people you know, gay or not are apparently not athletic. I get that you know that. We all have to reexamine things at times.

[swellmomma]

But what would you call it then?  What do ou think causes it?

 

It seems to be related to brain function and many think it relates to an atypical early developmental process in teh fetus - so an abnormal development of the brain.  IIRC there is some evidence in males it may have some genetic factor.

 

It's pretty uncomfortable and distressing to the person who has it and can affect daily living in a serious way. 

 

Usually we would say something like this is some kind of illness or disorder, whether or not there is any way to fix it.  And it seems to be located in the brain of the affected person.

 

I really can't see calling it just a difference, like being left handed, because the effects are so much greater and more difficult.

I would say although the effects are greater it is not because they are different but do explicitly to society and the effects of being oneself within that society. If society as a whole supported those with differences without blinking an eye than those who are transgendered would not have the rest of the struggle that they currently have.  Once upon a time, it was deemed wrong to be left handed, and left handers were physically punished for using their left hand and forced to use their right hand.  Being a left handers was deemed to be like a deformity or disorder.  It wasn't until society as a whole changed that and said "being left handed is normal, it is how some people are born and they deserve to live as left handed people without fear of reprimand or punishment"  What we need is that change to take over opinions that society as a whole has of LGBT people and let them just be who they are without fear that it will affect their career choices, families, etc When those attitudes shift you will see it is no different than being left handed and is not a disorder at all.

 

 

[luuknam]

I would say although the effects are greater it is not because they are different but do explicitly to society and the effects of being oneself within that society. If society as a whole supported those with differences without blinking an eye than those who are transgendered would not have the rest of the struggle that they currently have.  Once upon a time, it was deemed wrong to be left handed, and left handers were physically punished for using their left hand and forced to use their right hand.  Being a left handers was deemed to be like a deformity or disorder.  It wasn't until society as a whole changed that and said "being left handed is normal, it is how some people are born and they deserve to live as left handed people without fear of reprimand or punishment"  What we need is that change to take over opinions that society as a whole has of LGBT people and let them just be who they are without fear that it will affect their career choices, families, etc When those attitudes shift you will see it is no different than being left handed and is not a disorder at all.

 

 

 

As far as I know, left-handed people don't need surgery, medications (such as hormones), etc though. I know some use some left-handed tools such as left-handed scissors, but that's entirely different from needing medical treatment.

[Bluegoat]

I have high testosterone and androgens for unknown reason, many with PCOS have high male hormones and yet none of us feel like men trapped in women's bodies, we have grow beards naturally and many have issues with fertility and menses but not with feeling like they should be a guy. Women going through menopause also have higher testosterone as their estrogen levels drop dramatically and they also do not suddenly decide they are actually dudes. I do not see the connection there at all.  The hormones being out of whack do affect you for sure, but not to the point of changing who you are at your core.

 

I think the idea of steroids causing this seems a little far-fetched, in this case I can't see any reason to think that.

 

But chemicals can have some strange effects on people, so I would not be willing to say that it could never have a cause of that kind.  And it doesn't have to happen ever time for it to be a possibility.

 

There was a fellow in the news, maybe a year or so ago, who very suddenl became trannsexual, as in he began to feel that he was actually a woman, and then about a year later, after he had taken some steps toward becoming a woman and was going to have suregery, it went away.  IIRC is had something to do with an accident.  The whole thing was odd.

 

And speaking more generally of identity, I had a very strange experience where I lost all sense of my personal identity, as a result of a medication I was taking combined with a bunch of steroids.  It was really quite scary at the time, and I couldn't even sort through what things were my own experiences and what I had seen on tv, and I couldn't figure out why I was where I was. 

 

I don't think its possible to rule much out in the general case, though there would have to be some good reason to think it is so in any specific instance.

[Bluegoat]

I don't see how being an ally puts anyone above being reminded when we are saying bs things. You can make your point (there is zero evidence linking steroid use to being trans) without relating it to you personally not knowing althletic gay people. The lol and such just seemed to reinforce the sterotype that gay people aren't athletic. No, the people you know, gay or not are apparently not athletic. I get that you know that. We all have to reexamine things at times.

 

I didn't read her as saying what you are suggesting at all though.  It sounded to me like all she was saying plenty of transgendered people aren't sport and have never taken steroids, so that is not a good explanation.  I didn't read her as saying no gay people are athelitic or even that it wasn't common. 

[swellmomma]

nm 

 

Edited April 26, 2015 by Susan Wise Bauer
Very unnecessary.

[Bluegoat]

I would say although the effects are greater it is not because they are different but do explicitly to society and the effects of being oneself within that society. If society as a whole supported those with differences without blinking an eye than those who are transgendered would not have the rest of the struggle that they currently have.  Once upon a time, it was deemed wrong to be left handed, and left handers were physically punished for using their left hand and forced to use their right hand.  Being a left handers was deemed to be like a deformity or disorder.  It wasn't until society as a whole changed that and said "being left handed is normal, it is how some people are born and they deserve to live as left handed people without fear of reprimand or punishment"  What we need is that change to take over opinions that society as a whole has of LGBT people and let them just be who they are without fear that it will affect their career choices, families, etc When those attitudes shift you will see it is no different than being left handed and is not a disorder at all.

 

 

 

I don't think it is the same at all though, because transexuals often don't feel that their problem is just being perceived as the wrong sex.  They actually feel like they are in the wrong body, and there can be real physical distress around that.  Left handed people might wish the were right handed, but the don't have the same kind of feeling of being in the wrong kind of body.

 

I think there are lots of transexuals - not all, but many - who would for example, even if the were accepted totally by society, still want to change their body if it could be done well and safely. 

If what you are suggesting is true, the goal among trannsexuals would I think be to have acceptance, just as in the gay community.  The idea of taking hormones, giving powerful drugs to kids to prevent puberty, or having what are often very serious surgeries would seem crazy and a kind of terrible self-hatred.

 

To put it in a bit of a far-out scenario, if a left handed person in a world that hated left-handed people said "ok, if people won't accept me I will have dangerous brain surgery to become right-handed" that would not be considered a triumph for left-handedness.  Or in a racist society, we would not be blase I hope about blacks that try and bleach their skin to pass as white.

[Murphy101]

It does suggest a certain level of arrogance or insensitivity, though, to blithely say that the fact that you "don't agree with" or "don't believe in" something means that someone who has actual experience with it must be mentally ill.

There are many things people don't agree with or believe in whether they do or do not have experience with it.

 

I've never cheated on my husband, but I still view adultery as wrong too. (Or to rephrase, I don't agree with or believe in adultery and also think it is wrong.)

 

The presumption that knowing someone means people would change their opinion to agree with this is also in error.

[Aelwydd]

There are many things people don't agree with or believe in whether they do or do not have experience with it.

 

I've never cheated on my husband, but I still view adultery as wrong too. .

 

 

 

The presumption that knowing someone means people would change their opinion to agree with this is also in error.

 

Orignally, you rejected Moxie's statement that you were basing your opinions of transgendered individuals as derived from religious beliefs.

 

Now, you are not discussing the topic in terms of mental illness or mental health, but moral terms of "right" or "wrong."

 

Reading both posts, I'm left with thinking you either do not derive your sense of morality from your religion (which seems to contradict what I have read in your many posts regarding your Catholic faith).

 

Or, you were being disengenuous in your dismissive response to Moxie.

[luuknam]

There are many things people don't agree with or believe in whether they do or do not have experience with it.

 

I've never cheated on my husband, but I still view adultery as wrong too.

 

I hope that you do see the difference between a morally wrong choice (adultery) and LGBT. One does not choose to be LGBT. If one is LGBT, there are of course choices as to whether to act on it or not, which I know some religions say you shouldn't, but it's still entirely different from adultery (in that it doesn't hurt other people).

[Murphy101]

Orignally, you rejected Moxie's statement that you were basing your opinions of transgendered individuals as derived from religious beliefs.

 

Now, you are not discussing the topic in terms of mental illness or mental health, but moral terms of "right" or "wrong."

 

Reading both posts, I'm left with thinking you either do not derive your sense of morality from your religion (which seems to contradict what I have read in your many posts regarding your Catholic faith).

 

Or, you were being disengenuous in your dismissive response to Moxie.

I'm not being disingenuous at all in my dismissal of her illogical and off topic responses.

 

Unless you are implying only religious people are capable of making decisions on what to agree with or disagree with?

 

Moxie brought up religion and homosexuality. I never brought up either. I never presumed this has anything to do with homosexuality or religion. Moxie dismissed my disagreement out of hand simply bc I'm Catholic.

[Murphy101]

I hope that you do see the difference between a morally wrong choice (adultery) and LGBT. One does not choose to be LGBT. If one is LGBT, there are of course choices as to whether to act on it or not, which I know some religions say you shouldn't, but it's still entirely different from adultery (in that it doesn't hurt other people).

Yes, I agree choice is the key factor in determining moral wrong.

[Aelwydd]

I'm not being disingenuous at all in my dismissal of her illogical and off topic responses.

 

Unless you are implying only religious people are capable of making decisions on what to agree with or disagree with?

 

Moxie brought up religion and homosexuality. I never brought up either. I never presumed this has anything to do with homosexuality or religion. Moxie dismissed my disagreement out of hand simply bc I'm Catholic.

I'm not suggesting anything. I'm pointing out that you rejected that this has anthing to do with religion. Then, you described the issue in fundamentally moral terms.

 

I'm well aware that many individuals derive ethics from sources other than religion. Are you saying you are one of them?

[City Mouse]

I found the complete interview on Hulu for anyone who wants to watch.

[LucyStoner]

I didn't read her as saying what you are suggesting at all though. It sounded to me like all she was saying plenty of transgendered people aren't sport and have never taken steroids, so that is not a good explanation. I didn't read her as saying no gay people are athelitic or even that it wasn't common.

Here is what she said:

 

I know many transgender and gay people.

 

None of them are remotely athletic, LOL. Certainly not taking any steroids except FTM transgender people, and then only after they got approval.

 

I think you should re-think that comment.

 

 

She paired trans and gay people and lol-ed about ALL of the people in both groups that she knew not being "remotely athletic".

 

Being laughed at in sports is a common and painful experience for GLBT kids. I saw that play out not just for my brother but also many friends.

 

Do I think she was intentionally offensive? No. But when telling someone to re-think their assumptions about trans people, it doesn't help to at the same time play into longstanding sterotypes about GLBT people and their supposed lack of athletic ability.

 

We all can probably find something we need to reexamine or rethink from time to time.

[TranquilMind]

LOL...he just came out as Republican.  LOL :D  (On a serious note, maybe that will help...he'll cross the aisle, so to speak.)

I found it very interesting and amusing that Diane Sawyer was absolutely revolted by that admission...."You are a REPUBLICAN??!!"   And he just said, "Yeah."  Score one for Bruce.  Now that's a real anomaly.  Someone who is a conservative doing something like this.

 

I can't help but wonder what happened to him in his youth.  It had to be something.  Stuff doesn't just happen in a vacuum, though I know people here will argue against that. 

 

It's just so ironic, for those of us who remember him as this perfect specimen of masculinity for the Boomer generation.  

 

He is really just a likeable guy.  I saw the tail end of the interview. 

[LucyStoner]

I can't help but wonder what happened to him in his youth. It had to be something. Stuff doesn't just happen in a vacuum, though I know people here will argue against that.

 

What could have happened to him in his childhood to cause him to be trans? What sort of "something" are you hinting at here?

[Catwoman]

Man, I am so looking forward to the day when people merely wish transgender people well with their transition. You don't have to understand it. You just have to respect the person doing the transitioning. I don't care if this person, who I hadn't heard of until standing in the grocery store line yesterday, wants to be called 'he' and be called Bruce and be in the woman's body that represents his gender identity. That's fine. He's an adult, living an authentic life and may very well, by being publicly honest about his experiences, be helping and supporting others struggling with their gender identity.

 

Existential threats to society are not coming from Bruce.

:iagree:

 

Yes. This. Exactly.

[TranquilMind]

I have to wonder whether he used steroids during his athletic career and it messed him up psychologically when he came off of them.

Did she ask whether he ever used steroids?  I didn't see the whole interview.  That is an important question. 

[Luanne]

I think he is just doing this to get attention.  He has received attention his entire life for various things he was doing and now he isn't doing anything noteworthy, so he does this so people will pay attention to him.

[Catwoman]

Did she ask whether he ever used steroids? I didn't see the whole interview. That is an important question.

Why is it an important question?

 

You aren't the first person to mention steroids, so I'm wondering why anyone would think steroid use could cause someone to become transgendered.

 

It makes no sense at all to me.

[TranquilMind]

The only thing I find shocking in this while situation is that people never heard of Bruce Jenner prior to his connection with the Kardashians and/or his openness about his transgender-edness. (LOL)

Reminds me of when I was waiting tables back in the day.  A customer told me that his daughter had actually said to him, "Do you mean Paul McCartney was in a band before Wings?"

[dirty ethel rackham]

I can't help but wonder what happened to him in his youth.  It had to be something.  Stuff doesn't just happen in a vacuum, though I know people here will argue against that. 

Yeah, it must have been something I did that made my kid trans.  I was conscious of every bite I ate while I was pregnant, almost fearful of anything in the environment that could be toxic. My kid was raised in a loving home eating mostly organic, hormone-free foods ... raised with high expectations, but relatively non-punitive discipline.  

[TranquilMind]

Why is it an important question?

 

You aren't the first person to mention steroids, so I'm wondering why anyone would think steroid use could cause someone to become transgendered.

 

It makes no sense at all to me.

No idea whether it can or not.  We know it is linked to cancer.

 

Who knows what kind of mental disorders it may create?  We just don't know. 

But it isn't normal for a 65 year old man to suddenly say he wants to become a woman, even if he had been drawn to women's clothing and all through the years.  It doesn't happen every day.  Why did it happen here?  

 

It might make no sense to you, but the body is very much impacted by the crap you put into it, and we are seeing the results of that now, with 70 percent of Americans being overweight, and having massive disease.  More medicines, less health.  We are doing something wrong.  Why is it beyond the scope of questioning that Bruce could have been affected by any number of things? 

[Luanne]

No it's not. It would be an irrelevant question.

 

I don't understand why anyone would be a Republican, but at least I'm not going to suggest it's because of something Republican voters saw in the woodshed as young children, or drug use that messed with their heads. 

 

What is irrelevant is that you don't understand how someone could be a Republican.  I'm sure I'm not the only one on here who doesn't understand how someone can be a Democrat.

[Catwoman]

I think he is just doing this to get attention. He has received attention his entire life for various things he was doing and now he isn't doing anything noteworthy, so he does this so people will pay attention to him.

But why would anyone go to such an extreme just to get attention? This is something for which many people will hate and ridicule him. It must be so difficult for him to have always been thought of as "Olympic decathlon winner" and now being referred to as "Bruce in a dress," which is how many people are viewing him right now.

 

If he had made some kind of kinky sex tape and "accidentally" released it to the public, that would sound like attention-seeking, but I believe he is being entirely authentic when he says he is transgendered.

[TranquilMind]

Yeah, it must have been something I did that made my kid trans.  I was conscious of every bite I ate while I was pregnant, almost fearful of anything in the environment that could be toxic. My kid was raised in a loving home eating mostly organic, hormone-free foods ... raised with high expectations, but relatively non-punitive discipline.  

Ok, I see your sarcasm here.  But I'm assuming you didn't raise your child in a bubble.  You also don't know each and every experience that child ever had in childhood and teen years.   Everything isn't about what you did.   I'm sure you did everything right that you could, as we all do.   And things still happen to our kids sometimes. 

 

My parents did everything "right" too, and some creep still molested me in a theater one time when I was 11.  Not my parents' fault and I never even told them.    It is just an experience that I had.  In this case I don't *think* it particularly affected me, but if I were a different person, I may have had an entirely different reaction to this or some other kind of experience I had along the way. 

 

You only know what she/he told you (I don't know which you have). 

[Catwoman]

No idea whether it can or not. We know it is linked to cancer.

 

Who knows what kind of mental disorders it may create? We just don't know.

But it isn't normal for a 65 year old man to suddenly say he wants to become a woman, even if he had been drawn to women's clothing and all through the years. It doesn't happen every day. Why did it happen here?

 

It might make no sense to you, but the body is very much impacted by the crap you put into it, and we are seeing the results of that now, with 70 percent of Americans being overweight, and having massive disease. More medicines, less health. We are doing something wrong. Why is it beyond the scope of questioning that Bruce could have been affected by any number of things?

I don't think there was anything sudden about it.

 

He said he has always felt female. Maybe he finally decided he was sick and tired of living a lie, and he wanted to live out his golden years the way he always wanted to be, which was as a woman.

 

I believe he was born the way he is right now and only hid it due to the social stigma involved with publicly admitting how he really felt.

 

Obviously, you can disagree with me.

[Luanne]

You'd be amazed what someone will do for attention.  Apparently you haven't heard of the Balloon Boy Incident that happened in the city I live in.  It was totally done for attention.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Ok, I see your sarcasm here.  But I'm assuming you didn't raise your child in a bubble.  You also don't know each and every experience that child ever had in childhood and teen years.   Everything isn't about what you did.   I'm sure you did everything right that you could, as we all do.   And things still happen to our kids sometimes. 

 

My parents did everything "right" too, and some creep still molested me in a theater one time when I was 11.  Not my parents' fault and I never even told them.    It is just an experience that I had.  In this case I don't *think* it particularly affected me, but if I were a different person, I may have had an entirely different reaction to this or some other kind of experience I had along the way. 

 

You only know what she/he told you (I don't know which you have). 

There is absolutely NO evidence that you can MAKE someone trans.  None whatsoever.  What an ignorant statement!  Maybe you should do a teensy bit of research before asserting such a ridiculous thing.  If it were just about a past trauma, don't you thing someone would have come up with a "cure?"  One that did not actually increase the suicide risk?   There is no 'cure' for being trans. 

 

My kid was so terrified of being trans, did not want this.  They were 'this close" to suicide.  I thank God every day that we have moved away from that edge, but it is, unfortunately, always a worry.  We spent much time in therapy with this kid to help us keep them alive.  My kid told me that they always felt that they were different, that they were always uncomfortable in their own body, but didn't really see it as being trans until the late teens.  No trauma.  No hormonal exposure.  Just who they are.  We are on our own journey towards acceptance, but I love my kid and I will move mountains to keep my kid alive and healthy. 

[Catwoman]

You'd be amazed what someone will do for attention. Apparently you haven't heard of the Balloon Boy Incident that happened in the city I live in. It was totally done for attention.

I remember that -- it was about those parents who would do anything to get their own reality show, right?

[Joker]

Ok, I see your sarcasm here.  But I'm assuming you didn't raise your child in a bubble.  You also don't know each and every experience that child ever had in childhood and teen years.   Everything isn't about what you did.   I'm sure you did everything right that you could, as we all do.   And things still happen to our kids sometimes. 

 

My parents did everything "right" too, and some creep still molested me in a theater one time when I was 11.  Not my parents' fault and I never even told them.    It is just an experience that I had.  In this case I don't *think* it particularly affected me, but if I were a different person, I may have had an entirely different reaction to this or some other kind of experience I had along the way. 

 

You only know what she/he told you (I don't know which you have). 

 

This is disgusting.

 

I know with 100% certainty that my dd has never been molested or harmed in any way that "would cause her to be gay". She's 15, was homeschooled through elementary school, and has had a rather sheltered, loving life. She is still gay. So, what did I do wrong that caused her to like girls?

 

I was molested also, but I've still only liked men (and men only). Believe it or not, there are many out there living very normal lives who are not straight or comfortable with their bodies. It doesn't mean anything happened to them. I find it sad you think there must be.

[Btervet]

Yeah, it must have been something I did that made my kid trans.  I was conscious of every bite I ate while I was pregnant, almost fearful of anything in the environment that could be toxic. My kid was raised in a loving home eating mostly organic, hormone-free foods ... raised with high expectations, but relatively non-punitive discipline.  

 I'm sorry that you have to hear/see things like this. I hope your family and child have found the support needed to get through transition happily. You child is so lucky to have a parent that clearly still loves and cares about them, far too many trans kids/adult lose that. 

 

I hope Bruce Jenner can be just one more push in the movement to treat all people, trans or not, with respect and acceptance.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

There's no way it's polite (or supportive or friendly or normal), at all, for anyone to say to any parent for any reason, "You may think nothing horrible happened to your child but I think something terrible happened to them and they just never told you."

 

My God.

[LucyStoner]

As a child rape survivor I find any insinuations that my sexuality and gender identity are in some way determined by having been raped to be egregiously misguided and almost, if not entirely, cruel.

 

I mean, come on. It's 2015. The tenuous link postulated between childhood sexual abuse and being GLBT has been debunked.

[Heatherwith4]

I'll just go ahead and say that I am a sexual abuse survivor who is 100% into men and 100% comfy in my own female gendered body.

 

Not that I think I'm going to change anyone's mind or anything.

[Guest]

There is some seriously mean pot stirring happening here.

[SeaConquest]

There is some seriously mean pot stirring happening here.

 

I was just think the same. Really freaking cruel.

[*Lulu*]

I'll just go ahead and say that I am a sexual abuse survivor who is 100% into men and 100% comfy in my own female gendered body.

 

Not that I think I'm going to change anyone's mind or anything.

Agreed.

 

I am continually amazed by the spewing of such unkind words from posters that profess a faith in the God of mercy, patience, and loving kindness.

[Luanne]

One does not need to assume that because someone else disagrees with their lifestyle choices, that they are automatically mean or hateful.  I've said it before on here and I will say it again.  People who aren't Christians and don't follow the Bible will never understand why Christians feel the way they do about certain things.  I am never hateful or rude to someone no matter what their choices.  That doesn't mean I have to agree 100% with what they do and how they choose to live.  Free speech these days only applies to people who aren't Christians clearly.

[Luanne]

I guess we should just go elsewhere (like a lot of Christians have) since all kinds of assumptions are being made about us on here.  God loves all people no matter what ... that is true... that is why He wants all people to do what is right and live in a way that is pleasing to Him. 

[Luanne]

I think it is cruel that people aren't allowed to disagree with someone's lifestyle.  I think it is cruel how most of the people on this board have something against Christians just because we believe what the Bible teaches.  If I were Buddhist NO one would have a problem with anything I said.

[*Lulu*]

FYI- many of us posting in the thread in support of Jenner are Christians.

 

Personally, I dislike other Christians using the Bible or religious doctrine to hurt others.

[Elfknitter.#]

:rolleyes: