Catholic mommas w/big families: How do you feel about what the Pope said?

[RootAnn]

"God gives you methods to be responsible," he said, according to the National Catholic Reporter's account. "Some think that -- excuse the word -- that in order to be good Catholics we have to be like rabbits. No."

From USA Today

 

How many kids is "responsible" to have? He is quoted as saying, "I believe that three children per family, from what the experts say, is the key number for sustaining the population." (same speech)

 

DH & I have been talking about this all day. It seems there is a lot of love by Pope Francis for everyone except those who try to live by Church teaching. I thought this response was thought-provoking and insightful. I wonder how my friends with big families feel about his comments. Anyone want to chime in?

 

 

 

But the problem with these remarks, unless they are carefully developed and explained within the context of Catholic teaching, is that they might cause confusion, not only outside the Church but also inside, among faithful families. 

 

 

 

[RootAnn]

Well, sure. But that's not really what I'm asking. If you have more than the three children he mentions, do you feel like he just says you are a rabbit-like breeder?

 

If your sig is correct, you aren't considered a rabbit in his eyes.

 

Is what he said insulting to those who believe they are being responsible parents? To me, it seemed kind of like a slap in the face by cuddly, lovable Pope Francis.

[Guest]

I'm uncomfortable with a number being given as to what is responsible and what isn't.

 

I wonder how well Priests understand NFP? Maybe God gives us a method to be responsible but it isn't as easy as the books make it sound for many women. Idk. If God wanted me to check my cervix, He could have made it a bit easier to reach!

 

Eta-Now that I've read the whole interview (lesson learned!), I'm not bothered by the number. I don't love the rabbit comment most because the secular media will really run with it. Nothing new under the sun.

[Joker]

I didn't take him to be saying only having three is the responsible thing to do. I thought it was more in regards to the population. I think I am taking his comments much differently than others. It's weird. I've met those who are offended at the assumption that Catholics all have large families and now it seems some are offended at the idea that they don't.

[Starr]

Does he says three children per family sustain population or you should only, ever have three children? He talks to the world like he's talking to a small group. When things get changed to print it's sometimes difficult to get the exact meaning, ask questions etc. I doubt he's going to learn how to use sound bites well at this point in his life. 

[merry gardens]

He included the phrase "excuse me" in his statement. I'm trying to excuse what he said. I found it mildly offensive, but I'm also encouraged by some of the other things he said on his visit to the Philippines. 

[chiguirre]

Does he says three children per family sustain population or you should only, ever have three children? He talks to the world like he's talking to a small group. When things get changed to print it's sometimes difficult to get the exact meaning, ask questions etc. I doubt he's going to learn how to use sound bites well at this point in his life. 

I think he uses sound bites very well, but he's aiming them at a different audience. Both this quote and the "if you insult my mother, I'll punch you" bit play much, much better in Latin American culture than they do in North America. IMO, this pope is primarily concerned with maintaining the RC church as a central cultural touchstone in Latin America. He can come off as a bit off-center if you look at what he's saying from other perspectives.

[PrairieSong]

The Church teaches that we are supposed to be responsible parents. There is no magic number because each family's situation is unique. And anyway, just a few weeks ago Pope Francis said this:

 

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2014/12/28/pope_francis_to_large_families_you_are_a_gift_to_society/1116244

[Seasider]

While I am not a Catholic mama, I think he could have said what he meant without tossing out 3 as the magic number.

[Ellie]

Did the Pope really use the rabbit comment, or is that how USA Today and others interpret his comments?

[momto10blessings]

I'm having a hard time liking this pope.. Oops I said it.

He could have said it without the rabbits part or magic number 3. That was very very odd for him to throw out there.

He did say back in December that large families are a gift to society.

I don't know how I feel about it truthfully.

[momto10blessings]

Did the Pope really use the rabbit comment, or is that how USA Today and others interpret his comments?

Straight from his mouth

[LucyStoner]

I am personally getting the idea that it's hard to know what Pope Francis has said from any news articles. Many times I have read a headline that indicates one thing but when you read the article or the original text, it's clear the headline was taken out of context, mistranslated or in some cases just plain exaggerated. I think a lot of people of all ideological persuasions are getting to know Pope Francis as they want him to be or as they perceive him and not as he actually is. I wish people would just let him speak for himself instead of cherry picking comments for news stories.

 

ETA- I don't think someone needs to be a Catholic or have a large family to know that the rabbit reference is loaded and offensive. That said, in the context of large families in dire 3rd world poverty, I do think there's something to be said for addressing responsibility in family planning and empowering women. My Catholic grandmother used NFP and also enforced abstinence (at the time not a church approved method) to space her children out. She still had 9 children. 3 children using only NFP is a tall order for a fertile couple.

[MyLittleWonders]

I took the 3 children part as just citing what is necessary for maintaining population. Italy, for instance, is at risk of having too small a working generation to pay for those in retirement due to their extremely low birth rate. I didn't take that comment to mean as Catholics we should aim at having the magic number of three children. (For full disclosure, we have four children.) The rabbit thing ... considering the past comments in regards to Catholics and having large families, I think it wasn't the best way to say what he was trying to say. In terms of the actual teaching, he didn't say anything contrary to Church teaching - prudence should enter into the equation while still maintaining an openness to life, even if that means using NFP to not conceive. I do think, though, he should be more careful with what he says, knowing how often he is being taken out of context, how often sound bites are being flung around the internet, and how often what he says could cause confusion within the Church. It's one thing to see quotes pop up on my FB feed from my non-Catholic friends, or field a comment from someone in real life; but when someone inside the Church is offended or confused over his comments, I think there's a problem. 

 

Taylor Marshall had a good blog post today regarding "internal" Popes and "external" Popes and how Pope Francis falls on the "external" side - teaching those outside the Church. But in this day and age, with so many in the media not caring if they have their facts straight or not, it's a dangerous position if you don't think carefully about your words. 

[Corraleno]

In the context of the whole discussion, I don't think his comments are offensive, but it looks worse when one or two sentences are pulled out of context. My impression of the "rabbit" comment was that he was saying that some people mistakenly believe that in order to be a good Catholic, you need to be producing a baby every year, but that's not true. What's important is responsible parenting, and it's up to each couple to discuss with their pastor what is the right number for them.

 

He specifically references poor people, and says there needs to be responsibility there, while also taking into account that poor people love their children and consider them treasures, too. Given his background, I'm sure he's seen first hand the tragedies of extremely poor families who have more children than they can effectively feed, clothe, and keep healthy. He wants them to know that you can limit your family size, using Church-approved techniques, and still be a good Catholic.

 

Maybe his phrasing wasn't the best, or maybe it was badly translated/interpreted/whatever, but overall I think it's a positive message, not a negative one.

 

 

[KungFuPanda]

I took it to mean that although people think that you must be prolific breeders to be good Catholics, it's not necessarily true. In some cases, it may even be irresponsible. I didn't hear "large Catholic families have got it all wrong." I think it's a stretch to think that the Pope is against large, responsible families.

[albeto.]

The Church teaches that we are supposed to be responsible parents. There is no magic number because each family's situation is unique. And anyway, just a few weeks ago Pope Francis said this:

 

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2014/12/28/pope_francis_to_large_families_you_are_a_gift_to_society/1116244

 

So how is a large family a gift to society if 3 kids is a responsible family size? Which is it?

 

And I'm curious which Catholics responding have large families. I do recall JPII talking about family size in the context of not feeling pressured to have as many children as you possibly can, but if I were a mother of many children, I'd read a rabbit comment as being, I don't know, dismissive? Mocking? Like a proverbial pat on the head and being sent along my way. As a mother of not many children and as an ex-catholic, my response is negligent. But I can understand how the OP might feel like the butt of a joke, and that's kind of uncool.

 

[PrairieSong]

So how is a large family a gift to society if 3 kids is a responsible family size? Which is it?

 

 

All families are a gift to society. He said families *may* have an obligation to limit/space their children, not that every family must have only X number of children. Each family's circumstances are unique. Parents who are being responsible may have families of very different sizes.

 

I'm going to bed. I can't stay up all night playing games with you. Have a good night.

[Trish]

I'm having a hard time liking this pope.. Oops I said it.

He could have said it without the rabbits part or magic number 3. That was very very odd for him to throw out there.

He did say back in December that large families are a gift to society.

I don't know how I feel about it truthfully.

 

Maybe they're an *irresponsible" gift?

 

Honestly, if a speaker came to my parish and said what the pope said, I'd find it pretty insulting. Since it's the POPE who said it, I guess we're NOT  supposed to take it that way?

 

This pope strikes me more and more like that weird relative you're tempted to keep away from the public.

[Corraleno]

So how is a large family a gift to society if 3 kids is a responsible family size? Which is it?

 

And I'm curious which Catholics responding have large families. I do recall JPII talking about family size in the context of not feeling pressured to have as many children as you possibly can, but if I were a mother of many children, I'd read a rabbit comment as being, I don't know, dismissive? Mocking? Like a proverbial pat on the head and being sent along my way. As a mother of not many children and as an ex-catholic, my response is negligent. But I can understand how the OP might feel like the butt of a joke, and that's kind of uncool.

 

 

There's nothing contradictory in what he said. It's not like he said "everyone should have as many kids as possible" one day and said "no one should have more than 3" the next day.

 

This is what he actually said in the article linked by PrairieSong:  "a large family is a role model for solidarity and sharing and this benefits the whole of society.† Nowhere did he say everyone must have a large family, only that the large families that exist can be role models for solidarity & sharing.

 

Furthermore: "The Pope went on to urge politicians and the local administration to provide more support to help people with large families, lamenting that such help is not always forthcoming."

 

In other words, he was once again recognizing that large families face economic burdens, and that often they don't receive enough help. Two ways to deal with that are (1) working for more support for large families, and (2) telling people that it's not only acceptable for Catholics to have smaller families, in some circumstances it may be the responsible thing to do.

 

I think some people are just looking for reasons to be offended, and some people who don't like this Pope for whatever reason, are looking for justification of their dislike.

[albeto.]

There's nothing contradictory in what he said. It's not like he said "everyone should have as many kids as possible" one day and said "no one should have more than 3" the next day.

 

This is what he actually said in the article linked by PrairieSong:  "a large family is a role model for solidarity and sharing and this benefits the whole of society.† Nowhere did he say everyone must have a large family, only that the large families that exist can be role models for solidarity & sharing.

 

Furthermore: "The Pope went on to urge politicians and the local administration to provide more support to help people with large families, lamenting that such help is not always forthcoming."

 

In other words, he was once again recognizing that large families face economic burdens, and that often they don't receive enough help. Two ways to deal with that are (1) working for more support for large families, and (2) telling people that it's not only acceptable for Catholics to have smaller families, in some circumstances it may be the responsible thing to do.

That makes sense. Thanks for explaining that.

 

 

I think some people are just looking for reasons to be offended, and some people who don't like this Pope for whatever reason, are looking for justification of their dislike.

But it's conceivable that some people don't like him for understandable, concrete, legitimate reasons, right?

[KungFuPanda]

I do like him, mostly. I just think it's rude to use the rabbit word. I think he needs to be a little less off-the-cuff.

 

You can't require openness to life and at the same time introduce the concept of 'breeding like rabbits'. I'd like to see the Pope dealing with NFP for an entire fertile life...

Was that the first time you were introduced to that concept? It never occurred to me that anyone would think it a new, original phrase.

[Jasperstone]

At least he is more generous with the 3 children comment. An Australian politician once said to have 2.5 children. Lol!

 

Me thinks, he should stay out of the bedroom. ;-)

[Corraleno]

Ok, now that I've read the transcript of what the Pope actually said, the comment about three children was taken so totally out of context that it was made to seem as if he said the opposite of what he was saying. Here's the actual context:

 

Christoph Schmidt (CIC): How does the Church respond to the criticisms about its position on birth control given that the world population is growing so much. And to the criticism that the poverty in the Philippines is due to the fact that Filipino women have an average of 3 children each?

 

Pope Francis: I think the number of 3 (children) per family that you mentioned, it is the one experts say is important to keep the population going,. three per couple. When it goes below this, the other extreme happens, like what is happing in Italy. I have heard, I do not know if it is true, that in 2024 there will be no money to pay pensioners (because of) the fall in population.

 

So not only was he NOT saying that Catholics should only have 3 kids, he was refuting the assertion that the Filipino average of 3 children per family was the cause of poverty, since that's basically what you need to keep the population stable and support the older generation! And then he went on to say that what's important is not how many children you have, but that parents are responsible, and that it's OK to limit family size, as long as the couple are using methods approved by the church.

All of this was in the context of being asked to answer criticism of the church's stance on birth control! IMO, the way he was quoted in the linked news articles was blatantly (and intentionally) deceptive.

[Aelwydd]

I'm having a hard time liking this pope.. Oops I said it.

He could have said it without the rabbits part or magic number 3. That was very very odd for him to throw out there.

He did say back in December that large families are a gift to society.

I don't know how I feel about it truthfully.

 

 

 

Maybe you should read the entirety of what was said in context.  

 

I'm not a catholic, and in fact, I have a strong aversion to the church's morality, its history, and its leadership. Francis is a son of the church, and I do not mistake him to be anything but a willing mouthpiece for that organization, to both extend its influence and to detract from criticism.  Whatever fluff the media farts out about him, he's the top dog in an organization I find criminal in many respects.

 

So, now you realize some of the extent to which I truly do not care for Francis, or his mission, I think that it is important to understand statements such as these in context.  I don't think for a minute that Francis is dissing large families. I would point out that the "magic number 3" did not seem to come from him.  It appears that he answered the question with that number as something already proposed by another group--the "experts" as he refers to them.  

 

Read for yourself.

Christoph Schmidt: Holy Father, first of all I would like to say: Thank you very much for all the impressive moments of this week. It is the first time I accompany you, and I would like to say thank you very much. My question: you have talked about the many children in the Philippines, about your joy because there are so many children, but according to some polls the majority of Filipinos think that the huge growth of Filipino population is one of the most important reasons for the enormous poverty in the country. A Filipino woman gives birth to an average of three children in her life, and the Catholic position concerning contraception seem to be one of the few question on which a big number of people in the Philippines do not agree with the Church. What do you think about that?

 

 

Pope Francis: I think the number of three children per family that you mentioned – it makes me suffer- I think it is the number experts say is important to keep the population going. Three per couple. When this decreases, the other extreme happens, like what is happening in Italy. I have heard, I do not know if it is true, that in 2024 there will be no money to pay pensioners because of the fall in population. Therefore, the key word, to give you an answer, and the one the Church uses all the time, and I do too, is responsible parenthood. How do we do this? With dialogue. Each person with his pastor seeks how to do carry out a responsible parenthood.

That example I mentioned shortly before about that woman who was expecting her eighth child and already had seven who were born with caesareans. That is a an irresponsibility That woman might say 'no, I trust in God.’ But, look, God gives you means to be responsible. Some think that -- excuse the language -- that in order to be good Catholics, we have to be like rabbits. No. Responsible parenthood. This is clear and that is why in the Church there are marriage groups, there are experts in this matter, there are pastors, one can search; and I know so many ways that are licit and that have helped this. You did well to ask me this.

Another curious thing in relation to this is that for the most poor people, a child is a treasure. It is true that you have to be prudent here too, but for them a child is a treasure. Some would say 'God knows how to help me' and perhaps some of them are not prudent, this is true. Responsible paternity, but let us also look at the generosity of that father and mother who see a treasure in every child.

 

 

As far as the "rabbits" comment, I believe he is bristling at the notion that Catholic families are based upon "God/ nature knows best."  If anything, I would take the whole of his statement as a condemnation of Quiverfull and Covenant theologies, that suppose people are not to impose any limits on reproduction at all, but should just do like the Duggars, and leave it all to chance and biology.  Or God, as they claim. The point is, I don't see anywhere in his statement where he says big families are mindless breeders by default ("like rabbits").  The woman with the 7 c-sections is telling; he's wagging his finger at the "providentialists" who say, "Oh well, God will save me, because I left it all up to Him." 

Now, here's the point where I do get pissed at Francis.  I love how he opines that the Catholic family has recourse to NFP, and aren't just stuck breeding endlessly if they don't want to.  The problem is, that woman with the 7 kids???  She might very well have been using NFP.  And failing at it.  Or have a husband who won't go along with the program.  Or, have so messed up of a cycle, realize that the only choices the RCC gives her is use the most conservative NFP method (and hope it's accurate enough), or be abstinent.  

I actually do go to Catholic boards and simply read about their experiences with NFP, because I'm not a thrilled consumer of artificial methods.  So, I know that there are a certain number of NFP users who are in a place between the Rock (Peter and his keys to heaven) and a hard place (I'll let you figure out that reference).  Their quandary, and Francis' blithe statement, "Oh, but we Catholics have the NFP answer to that!" are what piss me off about this statement.

But that's another chapter.

[Aelwydd]

Ok, now that I've read the transcript of what the Pope actually said, the comment about three children was taken so totally out of context that it was made to seem as if he said the opposite of what he was saying. Here's the actual context:

 

 

So not only was he NOT saying that Catholics should only have 3 kids, he was refuting the assertion that the Filipino average of 3 children per family was the cause of poverty, since that's basically what you need to keep the population stable and support the older generation! And then he went on to say that what's important is not how many children you have, but that parents are responsible, and that it's OK to limit family size, as long as the couple are using methods approved by the church.

All of this was in the context of being asked to answer criticism of the church's stance on birth control! IMO, the way he was quoted in the linked news articles was blatantly (and intentionally) deceptive.

 

Thank you.  I cross posted with you, and I'm glad you said this, much more clearly and succinctly than I did.  

[ktgrok]

Well, sure. But that's not really what I'm asking. If you have more than the three children he mentions, do you feel like he just says you are a rabbit-like breeder?

 

If your sig is correct, you aren't considered a rabbit in his eyes.

 

Is what he said insulting to those who believe they are being responsible parents? To me, it seemed kind of like a slap in the face by cuddly, lovable Pope Francis.

 

The context was a woman who had had 7 c-sections, and was planning an 8th. He was concerned she was risking leaving her other children motherless, and was clarifying that you don't have to keep having kids and risk your life, it's ok to stop. 

[ktgrok]

While I am not a Catholic mama, I think he could have said what he meant without tossing out 3 as the magic number.

 3 is how many needed to replace population, not the limit. 

[Murphy101]

 

From First Things magazine.

 

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2015/01/breed-like-rabbits-the-pope-and-an-anti-catholic-slur

[BlsdMama]

Maybe they're an *irresponsible" gift?

 

Honestly, if a speaker came to my parish and said what the pope said, I'd find it pretty insulting. Since it's the POPE who said it, I guess we're NOT  supposed to take it that way?

 

This pope strikes me more and more like that weird relative you're tempted to keep away from the public.

 

I'm angry.

 

I'm not Catholic.  I was raised Catholic.  I went to Catholic high school.  My parents are Catholic.  DH's parents are Catholic.  All of our grandparents are Catholic (families of 11, 11, 12, and 6.) 

 

I'm not Catholic but really, their take on children and families was the one thing that made me nostalgic... Okay one of a few things.  It kept me searching and reading Catholic doctrine.

 

Honestly?

 

I'm angry.

 

We're rabbits?

 

VOMIT.

 

Accepting children as the good Lord is willing to send them within the confines of a holy and blessed union was never considered irresponsible by the Church until now.

 

I find his comments reprehensible. 

 

I do not like this Pope Sam I am.  I do not like him at all.

 

I will NEVER set foot again in a Catholic church until he's gone.

 

It used to be that NFP was the only acceptable "control" and only that after much prayer and agreement between the spouses.  It was a very serious undertaking and not to be considered lightly.

[BlsdMama]

The context was a woman who had had 7 c-sections, and was planning an 8th. He was concerned she was risking leaving her other children motherless, and was clarifying that you don't have to keep having kids and risk your life, it's ok to stop. 

 

I want to clarify.  Look, I UNDERSTAND what he's getting at, I do.

 

When the seething rage slips away, ever so slightly, I get it.

 

But at what point do we hold people in authority responsible for their words.

 

Let me turn this around a bit - if people with large families do NOT use NFP or any other form of birth control, does that then lump us into breeder category?

 

So my husband has a decent income, at the very least we're certainly not going without medical & dental care, food, a warm home, and education. ;)  So therefore do I *get* to be a breeder?  Or are all children and their souls the very creation of God?  Are there some children who lack the gifting of a soul?  Did I miss that part?  Were they created while God wasn't looking?

 

Or are children that are only affordable worthwhile?  Interesting thoughts that.... 

I am simply beyond disappointed in these remarks for I feel they are *NOT* off the cuff.  I'm sorry but no.  One does not choose a celibate and holy life of forgoing temptation and worldly things to be crude and thoughtless in one's remarks.  One does not make it to pope-dom by being thoughtless in one's speech.

 

No,  I find these words to be the outpouring of the heart.  And I find them lacking the generally accepted Catholic attitude towards marriage as a whole.

 

I would be on the wagon of agreeing, wholeheartedly, that a woman facing the fear and uncertainty of an eighth c-section ( and my best friend has had seven so I am well aware of the risks) should be allowed to choose to use NFP wisely and with much prayer, in agreement with her husband, and to not bear more children following the biblical outline(prayer and agreement) to abstain.   I do NOT agree that the next logical comment should be refer to those of us who have  no such contraindications as rabbits.  I'm sorry but I truly believe there is an unspoken message.

[ktgrok]

 

 

 

"It used to be that NFP was the only acceptable "control" and only that after much prayer and agreement between the spouses.  It was a very serious undertaking and not to be considered lightly."

 

Just wanted to clarify that that is still the case. The example he gave was a woman who was risking her life to have more children. I think that would always be considered something serious, not to be taken lightly. The risks of placenta accreta or percreta go up dramatically with that number of c-sections . After 6 c-sections the risk is 67%. She's had 7, and is going for her 8th. This is a very serious risk to her life.  Yet some women have felt forced by the church to keep having more children. He was addressing that. 

 

[Guest]

You are catholic. You rejected the church apparently long before this pope. But you are a catholic.

What is the point of this statement???

[JustEm]

What ? Of course I've heard it before! It's said snidely about people with a lot of kids. I don't believe in being snide about family size. No need for the Pope to use the phrase. Bad choice of words. You're not going to argue 'they breed like rabbits' is often used politely, affectionately and approvingly, are you ?

My dh's friend gave him the nickname Thumper because this is my 5th pregnancy and our oldest is only 6. He called him it jokingly and affectionally with no judgement at all because he knows dh wouldn't be offended by such a thing.  I personally have never heard of it used snidely but I know it happens.  I've only heard it used jokingly by people who understand the reasons some people choose to have large families. Many times it has been from other Catholics who have large families joking together.  I imagine I've never heard it used negatively because I only surround myself with supportive people.  

 

I think like everything else it has to do with the context in which things are said.  The Pope was not saying we have to live up to that 'Catholics breed like rabbits' mindset that the world, including many Catholics, have.  It is ok to limit family size just like it is ok to have huge families as long as it is done responsibly.  I longed for a big family but the reality is that I'll be having my 4th csection in less then 2 weeks and have to seriously start considering that the family size I want may not be the responsible thing to do because risks of complications rise with each additional c/section.  

[KungFuPanda]

What ? Of course I've heard it before! It's said snidely about people with a lot of kids. I don't believe in being snide about family size. No need for the Pope to use the phrase. Bad choice of words. You're not going to argue 'they breed like rabbits' is often used politely, affectionately and approvingly, are you ?

Of course it's not nice. He said it wasn't nice. It was in the context of 'People say this awful thing about us, but it's not true.' I'm not sure how we can leap to "The Pope called us rabbits!"

[JustEm]

What is the point in a non practicing catholic who left the church hating on the pope for a comment which is taken out of context and misinterpreted?

 

The point of my statement was she rejects the church already.

If that was the point of the comment you wouldn't try to tell her she's still a catholic, whether that is true or not.  

 

The point of her statement was to point out that although she no longer practices the faith she still had interest in knowing it until apparently this Pope made those comments.  That is a legitimate reaction to reading the comments in those articles. A more constructive comment from you would have been to encourage her to read what he said in context and shown her a link where she could have done so because making the decision to give up on Catholicism entirely until this Pope is gone.

[Corraleno]

I'm angry.

 

I'm not Catholic.  I was raised Catholic.  I went to Catholic high school.  My parents are Catholic.  DH's parents are Catholic.  All of our grandparents are Catholic (families of 11, 11, 12, and 6.) 

 

I'm not Catholic but really, their take on children and families was the one thing that made me nostalgic... Okay one of a few things.  It kept me searching and reading Catholic doctrine.

 

Honestly?

 

I'm angry.

 

We're rabbits?

 

VOMIT.

 

Accepting children as the good Lord is willing to send them within the confines of a holy and blessed union was never considered irresponsible by the Church until now.

 

I find his comments reprehensible. 

 

I do not like this Pope Sam I am.  I do not like him at all.

 

I will NEVER set foot again in a Catholic church until he's gone.

 

It used to be that NFP was the only acceptable "control" and only that after much prayer and agreement between the spouses.  It was a very serious undertaking and not to be considered lightly.

 

I would really urge you to read the entire transcript, because the way he was quoted makes it seem as if he is against large families when in fact he is defending large families against criticism that the Catholic church's stand on birth control contributes to overpopulation and poverty. He is absolutely positively NOT saying that couples should only have 3 kids or that people with large families just "breed like rabbits."

 

In fact, if you see the entire context, the word "SOME" in the quote ("SOME think that, excuse me if I use that word, that in order to be good Cathlics we have to be like rabbits") can also be taken as referring to the critics of the Catholic church, whose incorrect stereotype of Catholic families is that they breed like rabbits, which is not true. Then he goes on to talk about responsible parenthood, saying that is what the church promotes.

[PrairieSong]

I want to clarify. Look, I UNDERSTAND what he's getting at, I do.

 

When the seething rage slips away, ever so slightly, I get it.

 

But at what point do we hold people in authority responsible for their words.

 

Let me turn this around a bit - if people with large families do NOT use NFP or any other form of birth control, does that then lump us into breeder category?

 

So my husband has a decent income, at the very least we're certainly not going without medical & dental care, food, a warm home, and education. ;) So therefore do I *get* to be a breeder? Or are all children and their souls the very creation of God? Are there some children who lack the gifting of a soul? Did I miss that part? Were they created while God wasn't looking?

 

Or are children that are only affordable worthwhile? Interesting thoughts that....

I am simply beyond disappointed in these remarks for I feel they are *NOT* off the cuff. I'm sorry but no. One does not choose a celibate and holy life of forgoing temptation and worldly things to be crude and thoughtless in one's remarks. One does not make it to pope-dom by being thoughtless in one's speech.

 

No, I find these words to be the outpouring of the heart. And I find them lacking the generally accepted Catholic attitude towards marriage as a whole.

 

I would be on the wagon of agreeing, wholeheartedly, that a woman facing the fear and uncertainty of an eighth c-section ( and my best friend has had seven so I am well aware of the risks) should be allowed to choose to use NFP wisely and with much prayer, in agreement with her husband, and to not bear more children following the biblical outline(prayer and agreement) to abstain. I do NOT agree that the next logical comment should be refer to those of us who have no such contraindications as rabbits. I'm sorry but I truly believe there is an unspoken message.

I think the word "rabbits" was not the best word choice. He could have said, it is not demanded of you by God to have as many children as you physically can. Take the matter to prayer. Be responsible parents.

 

Parents of large families can be responsible parents. Absolutely. We have seven. And yes, each child is a gift whether he is the first child or the tenth. Did you read what Pope Francis said about large families? It is linked in my post above, post #10.

 

*ETA: I just read Corraleno's post above, and she explains very well how the pope used the word rabbits. I should have read his statement more carefully.

[MotherGoose]

I only have 2 children. Taken in context of what he said, it seems to me that he's saying you don't HAVE to have lots of kids to be a good Catholic. And re: the NFP and the lady with the 7 c-sections, well I think the modern medicine that has allowed her to still be alive and to have had those 7 c-sections--she might well have died in childbirth before c-sections were available--also has given us reliable birth control. We don't know if this lady was using NFP that failed or just letting nature take its course. Just food for thought on the whole NFP subject. I do think NFP can be effective for many people.

[Aelwydd]

I don't really think its actually immaterial that she is in fact a catholic.

 

My point being that she obviously has rejected far more than just this pope. Possibly she has no idea what she rejected or that she is in fact a catholic especially given she wasn't aware of the context of these comments but apparently doesn't like the pope. Because of them. Sam I am.

 

I think BlsdMama has the right to define herself, and what she believes, regardless of what events were decided for her when she was an infant and a minor.  It isn't her fault that the catholic church will not recognize her departure from that faith, and insists on calling her a catholic (who is simply non-practicing).

 

Different people will fall on different sides of this debate.  You appear to hold to the church's definition, that anyone who is baptised and raised catholic, is a catholic, whether they claim that identify or reject it. Maybe culturally she is a catholic, I would agree.  Is that what you mean?

 

Others don't recognize the authority of that body, or their claims of spiritual branding, regardless of what the individual chooses.  

 

 

 

 

BTW, I agree with you that the pope's "rabbit" and "3 children" comments are taken out of context, and were not actually a reflection of his own beliefs.  IMO, there are people from liberal and traditional ideologies that would like to peg this pope as a revolutionary.

 

Keep it real. 

[merry gardens]

BTW, I agree with you that the pope's "rabbit" and "3 children" comments are taken out of context, and were not actually a reflection of his own beliefs.  IMO, there are people from liberal and traditional ideologies that would like to peg this pope as a revolutionary.

 

Keep it real. 

 

I saw right away that his "three children" comment was taken out of context, but it's really hard to see any context in which the "rabbit" comments are appropriate, (unless one is talking about breeding animals.) The pope's words comparing human reproduction to rabbit reproduction don't look taken out of context. They look like a poor word choice--which he probably knew at the time to be a poor word choice because he included the phrase "I'm sorry" along as he used those words.

 

English is not his first language. Maybe he wasn't able to quickly think of a way to say in English what he was trying to say. That's as generous as I can be regarding that comment.  I've got hop along now to tend to my little bunnies.

[amy g.]

I'm a Catholic who has had 5 children in a 24 year marriage without using any artificial birth control. The only time I really struggled with the church's teachings on family planning was last year when I miscarried 3 times each after seeing a heathy heartbeat at the age of 46.

 

In my head, I understand that my body was dumping old and damaged eggs before starting menapause. Which has turned out to be the case.

 

Emotionally, I was completely ready to welcome another baby or three, but I could not stand the thought that I needed to be open to another heartbreak. My sadness was intensified by a lack of understanding and compassion from non Catholics including my own sister. They could not understand why I refuse to take the very simple step(to them) of using artificial birth control to prevent a reoccurance.

 

I decided that it really doesn't matter who understands. I trust God more than I trust my own wisdom and rationalizations. I'm happy to have emerged stronger on the other side of the sadness and 2015 is turning out to be a really happy year for me.

 

All of that is just to say that although I have tried in every way to be true to the church's teachings, I am not offended at all by our Pope's statements. I welcome them.

 

I have family members who have never been able to have any children. I welcome the sentiment that their family is every bit as Catholic as mine is.

 

I also saw a distinction made between Catholic families and what I sometimes see in Quiverfull families.

 

There is no need to intentionally rush into the next pregnancy when you are can barely take care of the children you have.

 

I really don't mean that to be offensive.

 

I just don't personally see how God is glorified by huge families full of children that the parents have neither the money or the attention to take care of.

 

If you have a big family, and you take care of them as I see so many Catholic families sacrificing their own comfort to do so, more power to you. Your family is a blessing to the world.

 

If you have a huge family and you can not or will not take care of them, don't deceive yourself into thinking that your only job is to give birth, and God will have to take care of everything else after they are born.

[Jasperstone]

You are catholic. You rejected the church apparently long before this pope. But you are a catholic.

So how does one become uncatholic?

[Runningmom80]

I have 3 kids! I've done one thing right!

 

 

 

:)

[Jasperstone]

Excommunication?

So one can't undo Catholicism by oneself? You have to be excommunicated by the church before you are considered to be a non- catholic?

[Jasperstone]

I have 3 kids! I've done one thing right!

 

 

 

:)

 

Depends where you live. ;-)

[unsinkable]

So how does one become uncatholic?

Do you have the decoder ring?

[Murphy101]

Total side topic...

 

On being catholic. Once baptised into the Roman Catholic church they are a child of God and the roman catholic family.

 

They might do something that excommunicates themselves.

 

But that doesn't mean they aren't catholic.

 

Somewhat like if a child disowns their parents and leaves home, they have excommunicated themselves but that doesn't change that they are still the child of those parents. Even if they disown their parent. Even if they change their name. Even if they meet someone else they want to call mom and dad. They are still forever Catholic. And they are still forever hoped to return and be welcomed by the Catholic Church.

 

So someone may leave the RCC and we are for sure sorry to see that, but on the other hand, we never write them off. If 40 years later they decide they'd like to come home again, we quite thrilled to have them.

 

You can't become not catholic once you are.

 

But I didn't think any of that had diddly to do with the original topic of the post.

 

I don't think this had diddly to do with the original topic though. *shrug*

[unsinkable]

Total side topic...

 

On being catholic. Once baptised into the Roman Catholic church they are a child of God and the roman catholic family.

 

They might do something that excommunicates themselves.

 

But that doesn't mean they aren't catholic.

 

Somewhat like if a child disowns their parents and leaves home, they have excommunicated themselves but that doesn't change that they are still the child of those parents. Even if they disown their parent. Even if they change their name. Even if they meet someone else they want to call mom and dad. They are still forever Catholic. And they are still forever hoped to return and be welcomed by the Catholic Church.

 

So someone may leave the RCC and we are for sure sorry to see that, but on the other hand, we never write them off. If 40 years later they decide they'd like to come home again, we quite thrilled to have them.

 

You can't become not catholic once you are.

 

But I didn't think any of that had diddly to do with the original topic of the post.

 

I don't think this had diddly to do with the original topic though. *shrug*

Testify.

[Corraleno]

I saw right away that his "three children" comment was taken out of context, but it's really hard to see any context in which the "rabbit" comments are appropriate, (unless one is talking about breeding animals.) The pope's words comparing human reproduction to rabbit reproduction don't look taken out of context. They look like a poor word choice--which he probably knew at the time to be a poor word choice because he included the phrase "I'm sorry" along as he used those words.

 

English is not his first language. Maybe he wasn't able to quickly think of a way to say in English what he was trying to say. That's as generous as I can be regarding that comment.  I've got hop along now to tend to my little bunnies.

 

It's not at all clear whether the Pope was even speaking English at the time, or whether what we're reading was a translation. The first questioner in the transcript apologizes for asking her questions in English, and the transcript itself — from which various news organizations seem to be pulling quotes — carries the following disclaimer:

 

"THE FOLLOWING IS A FULL TRANSCRIPT IN ENGLISH OF THE POPE’S PRESS CONFERENCE (The translation is unofficial, and was done by the author and other colleagues aboard the papal flight)"

 

As for the context of the rabbit quote (which was actually "to be like rabbits") — the larger context of that quote is that it's something that has often been said about Catholics by nonCatholics — it's not as if he made up this phrase and applied it to Catholics for the first time ever. It really seems to me, if you read the entire conversation, he was saying that people who believe that about Catholics are wrong, not that Catholics who have large families are like rabbits.