Is hating math just a fact of life for most kids?

[Shellydon]

Thanks for all the insight everyone. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Question for all of you that add lots of extra 'stuff' to your basic math program--- when I tried this, the kids revolted because if made math take even longer.  So rather than just getting through your number of pages for that day, now you had to talk about it, listen to stories, and do even more math, all of which they disliked.  After a few weeks, we just went back to doing a single program.  

 

 

To add-- DH is the math guy at home.  He has a B.S. in a science field and a M.S. and  Ph.D in Engineering and took every available math course in college.  He tutored and graded math all through college as well.  It is definitely his forte.    With my first, I would let her move on when I felt like she understood the concept.  When he started helping with her math about 2.5 years ago, he really felt like that was a huge mistake, so I don't do that any longer.  And honestly, in Math Mammoth and Math U See, it isn't *that* much if they would just buckle down and zip through the problems.  If motivated by going somewhere, my 2nd grader can finish in less than 20 minutes each day and get everything right.  Apparently it is more fun to sob about it most days though.

 

I moved on when the concept was understood.  No regrets in terms of doing that.  I don't understand your husband's reasoning.  I could see if he wrote the particular book you were using and had a specific "method" that he personally tested and felt strongly that it produced awesome results.  Otherwise, you are using a one size fits most book.  Homeschooling doesn't have to be one size fits most.

 

It's hard to give specific advice and of course not one thing works for everyone.  I just don't think you should be afraid to try something else if your kid hates math.  I hated math as a kid.  REALLY hated it.  I don't hate it now.  It is actually now one of my favorite subjects to work with my kids on.  And I'm excited that I finally understand stuff.  I fully credit the books I've used (and some credit should go to the fact I got a better attitude about it). 

[KarenC]

For most kids (and most people in general) math requires a good deal of concentration and effort.  I think most kids don't like the effort required to do well, not the math itself.

 

 

[Serenade]

 I think they sometimes hate it because it requires effort. 

 

 

I think this is it exactly, and the more advanced they become, the more effort it requires.  Gasp!  They get to a point where they can't do it in their heads anymore and actually have to write things down.  Oh, the horror of it all.  I have one who is good at math, but can't stand to work problems out on paper, and even though he has a pretty good brain, his brain is not big enough to hold all the information and process it without writing it down.  Of course, he refuses to believe this simple little fact and gets mad when I make him write things down.  Somehow, even though I have shown him numerous times that he gets the problem right when he writes things down, he still prefers to struggle with it in his head.

[KrissiK]

I think this is it exactly, and the more advanced they become, the more effort it requires. Gasp! They get to a point where they can't do it in their heads anymore and actually have to write things down. Oh, the horror of it all. .

My oldest son has the worst handwriting ever. He's just too lazy to write well, and short of requiring him (and then checking and re-checking) to re-do all his work.... I have let it go. But with math, it is fixing itself, because he'd write down, say a long division problem but he either wouldn't know the answer or he'd get it wrong, or he wouldn't know what number to bring down because he couldn't read his own writing. So now, all of the sudden, his writing in math is surprisingly legible. It's pretty funny!

[Shellydon]

For most kids (and most people in general) math requires a good deal of concentration and effort.  I think most kids don't like the effort required to do well, not the math itself.

 

I think you are right.  My kids are pretty bright and everything else is easy for them.  Math isn't hard, but it requires time and effort to work through a set of problems.

[Shellydon]

I think this is it exactly, and the more advanced they become, the more effort it requires.  Gasp!  They get to a point where they can't do it in their heads anymore and actually have to write things down.  Oh, the horror of it all.  I have one who is good at math, but can't stand to work problems out on paper, and even though he has a pretty good brain, his brain is not big enough to hold all the information and process it without writing it down.  Of course, he refuses to believe this simple little fact and gets mad when I make him write things down.  Somehow, even though I have shown him numerous times that he gets the problem right when he writes things down, he still prefers to struggle with it in his head.

 

Yes!  Holy smokes, requiring the 7th grader to write down her work.  Heavens to Betsy, the house is going to fall in on us because of that requirement!

[Arcadia]

Yes! Holy smokes, requiring the 7th grader to write down her work. Heavens to Betsy, the house is going to fall in on us because of that requirement!

Can your husband work with your 7th grader on math? Even 30mins per day going over her work would be good? She needs to get use to writing down her work for math and for computations questions in science.

 

We do the extras randomly, reading living math books, doing past year math contest problems for fun, kids invent math problems for hubby to solve.

[EmilyGF]

Do you hate math?

[Shellydon]

Can your husband work with your 7th grader on math? Even 30mins per day going over her work would be good? She needs to get use to writing down her work for math and for computations questions in science.

 

We do the extras randomly, reading living math books, doing past year math contest problems for fun, kids invent math problems for hubby to solve.

 

He does math with her most days. 

[Shellydon]

Do you hate math?

 

I see math as a means to an end. 

[EmilyGF]

I see math as a means to an end. 

I'm not saying this is you, but I've heard mums say, "I just never could do math" in front of their kids and then wonder why their kids make the same excuse.

 

(Got seriously chewed out once when I called a mom out on it. I've since learned to keep my peace generally, but since you asked...)

[regentrude]

I see math as a means to an end. 

 

Then it is hard to inspire love of math - just like it would be hard to inspire love of literature if one saw writing as a means to an end only (not to mention where that would leave music and art if everything was just viewed as a means to an end)

 

I would guess it requires appreciating math for itself as beautiful (and a crowning achievement of human intellect) to inspire joy and love.

[wapiti]

Do you make them do all the problems in MM?  Could they be doing too many?

 

As for the not wanting to write things down, that's a very common affliction, FWIW, sometimes especially if the kid is that combination of bright/mathy/visual-spatial and struggling with handwriting.  I have one who finally met his match when he got to systems of equations in AoPS Intro to Algebra, LOL, when writing finally became absolutely necessary.  My advice is to allow oral work at least some of the time if the student is still getting things correct.   I feel your pain when it comes to long division and such; try letting them use a white board for scratch work.  Sometimes the white board has magical properties.

 

Alternatively, I might look at adding in something from a very different approach to spice things up, say for example Beast Academy for the younger one and bits of Alcumus along with aops videos for the older.  

 

(Eta, it's funny, I have always loved MM, but after using AoPS for so long, I have no patience for anything that isn't a *very* big picture approach, LOL; just this morning, I was showing ds6 something and I ended up compacting many lessons into one - that wouldn't work with many kids but it works for him.  He said, "Mama, is math 100% fun?!!!"  Ahhh, if only my older kids said that!  But then, ds6 has a way with words; he likes to say, "Mama, do you love my hugs?"  Why yes, ds, yes I do.)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I see math as a means to an end. 

 

Yucky medicine and surgery are means to an end.  LOL

 

I know it is very difficult to get enthused about something one does not like.  Sometimes ya gotta fake it.  Both of mine enjoy it when I sit next to them and do math along side them.  I sometimes challenge the older one.  Stuff like that. 

 

I think MUS and MM are on the dry side.  Some people don't mind that (I don't), but some don't like it.

[Momling]

If it helps, my daughter who considered herself a math hater throughout elementary school (peaking at around 5th grade) now tolerates math. I tried everything to make it fun, but it just wasn't for her. In the end, I gave up on fun, she matured and stopped procrastinating as much, and she now approaches math without emotion.

 

I hated math as a kid too and actually learned to like it when I landed a job teaching math to middle schoolers. So... They may come around!

[wintermom]

I know it is very difficult to get enthused about something one does not like.  Sometimes ya gotta fake it.  Both of mine enjoy it when I sit next to them and do math along side them.  I sometimes challenge the older one.  Stuff like that. 

 

 

:iagree:

 

I sometimes add in humour to an explanation to lighten things up and simplify the equation. For example in algebra, I would changed letter variable 'x' to 'cow' and 'y' would be 'horse' then explain how to do the quesiton. Or change the word problems to include family member names, or other silly things. Just little things to add in fun and interest.

 

My ds loves putting math questions on the white board for the rest of the family to complete. He'll add in a challenge, too, like, "You can play with my ipod for 15 minutes if you can do this question." The younger brothers LOVE this, and even if the math is way over their head, I'll use it as a learning opportunity to use some things they already know, and show them something they'll be doing in the future.

 

Life of Fred is also a really fun way to look at math. Even if you don't use the books as a curriculum, they are just fun to read. My boys love them.

[Shellydon]

Then it is hard to inspire love of math - just like it would be hard to inspire love of literature if one saw writing as a means to an end only (not to mention where that would leave music and art if everything was just viewed as a means to an end)

 

I would guess it requires appreciating math for itself as beautiful (and a crowning achievement of human intellect) to inspire joy and love.

 

I am never going to inspire love and joy for math. :)  I don't give a flying flip about math being beautiful and all that.  Truly do not care.  And honestly,  that is not my goal.  My goal is for them to do the math with as little complaining as possible.

[Shellydon]

:iagree:

 

I sometimes add in humour to an explanation to lighten things up and simplify the equation. For example in algebra, I would changed letter variable 'x' to 'cow' and 'y' would be 'horse' then explain how to do the quesiton. Or change the word problems to include family member names, or other silly things. Just little things to add in fun and interest.

 

My ds loves putting math questions on the white board for the rest of the family to complete. He'll add in a challenge, too, like, "You can play with my ipod for 15 minutes if you can do this question." The younger brothers LOVE this, and even if the math is way over their head, I'll use it as a learning opportunity to use some things they already know, and show them something they'll be doing in the future.

 

Life of Fred is also a really fun way to look at math. Even if you don't use the books as a curriculum, they are just fun to read. My boys love them.

 

 

We have LOF.  My 2nd grader likes them, but we work in them a below her level so it is quick review. 

[Ellie]

I don't believe that "hating" math has to be a fact of life for most children. Not all children will love it, but they don't have to hate it. I think it's possible to find at least some sort of basic arithmetic that will get the job done, such that the children can balance their checkbooks and understand what it means when interest is compounded daily and why it's a bad thing to go into debt; a basic understanding of arithmetic is vital to more advanced maths, of course, so  it behooves us to find that basic arithmetic.

 

I cannot imagine myself allowing a young child to work on eight arithmetic problems for two hours or more, although I haven't walked in your shoes so maybe I'm missing something.

[Shellydon]

I don't believe that "hating" math has to be a fact of life for most children. Not all children will love it, but they don't have to hate it. I think it's possible to find at least some sort of basic arithmetic that will get the job done, such that the children can balance their checkbooks and understand what it means when interest is compounded daily and why it's a bad thing to go into debt; a basic understanding of arithmetic is vital to more advanced maths, of course, so  it behooves us to find that basic arithmetic.

 

I cannot imagine myself allowing a young child to work on eight arithmetic problems for two hours or more, although I haven't walked in your shoes so maybe I'm missing something.

 

It isn't 'allowing.'  She can do the work.  She understands it, she can do it easily and quickly if she chooses.  She chooses to throw a fit and procrastinate rather than just doing the problems.  I am not going to let her off the hook and reward a fit.  Once she decided to just get down to business, she was finished in less than 20 minutes. 

 

 

 

 

 

My math goals for my children is to have a very solid understanding of Algebra 1 and 2, Geometry and Trigonometry.  If they can do these things well, then they can succeed at higher level math in high school if they choose, and they can succeed at the math required for all college degrees.

[hornblower]

I am never going to inspire love and joy for math. :)  I don't give a flying flip about math being beautiful and all that.  Truly do not care.  And honestly,  that is not my goal.  My goal is for them to do the math with as little complaining as possible.

 

Really? If you watch the two videos I linked above or the tv show Numbers, you don't feel any joy about the math?   (Numbers, if nothing else has Colby. Surely that is joyous....:D  )

 

Honestly, I think the goal of getting people to do something without complaining - just on its own -  is doomed to failure.

 

Behavior science has helped clarify that people mostly do things that they like or are intrinsically rewarding or things that they believe are necessary to some ultimate goal.

 

Now as parents, we often see an ultimate goal that makes some intermediate drudgery step necessary but I think it's also our job as parents, leaders, educators, mentors, to minimize that drudgery as much as possible by loading up the motivation, loading up the fun.

 

Ditch the repetition, ditch the worksheets, dig out tanagrams, dig out khan academy, dig out Vi Hart, look at fractals, look at the Fibonacci sequence. Look at geometric quilts. Sew geometric quilts....

 

 

[Btervet]

I am never going to inspire love and joy for math. :)  I don't give a flying flip about math being beautiful and all that.  Truly do not care.  And honestly,  that is not my goal.  My goal is for them to do the math with as little complaining as possible.

 

That's probably why they hate it. I would hate it if I was told to do this way too easy for me task that is boring and repetitive and to do it without complaining. As a kid, that would be torture.

 

Math is beautiful and wonderful. Kids who are helped to see that don't normally hate math.

 

Pages of repetitive arithmetic aren't math, they are boring algorithms. They need to be learned eventually, but don't kill your kids joy with them.

 

Why are you having your kids do math that is easy for them? Give them a challenge! 2-3 challenging problems are worth far far more then endless, joy-killing, drill.

[Shellydon]

Really? If you watch the two videos I linked above or the tv show Numbers, you don't feel any joy about the math?   (Numbers, if nothing else has Colby. Surely that is joyous.... :D  )

 

Honestly, I think the goal of getting people to do something without complaining - just on its own -  is doomed to failure.

 

Behavior science has helped clarify that people mostly do things that they like or are intrinsically rewarding or things that they believe are necessary to some ultimate goal.

 

Now as parents, we often see an ultimate goal that makes some intermediate drudgery step necessary but I think it's also our job as parents, leaders, educators, mentors, to minimize that drudgery as much as possible by loading up the motivation, loading up the fun.

 

Ditch the repetition, ditch the worksheets, dig out tanagrams, dig out khan academy, dig out Vi Hart, look at fractals, look at the Fibonacci sequence. Look at geometric quilts. Sew geometric quilts....

 

 

 

I watched the videos.  NO love, no joy.  Don't like Numbers. Sorry Colby.  :)

 

As to the bolded, we do a few of these things, but I am never going to ditch a curriculum.  Ever.  I think you have to truly understand and be able to manipulate math in order to do that.  I can't do that.  I must have a solid curriculum.  Just like many/most people feel they need a solid writing curriculum and others are always telling them to get rid and it and "just teach your kids to write well, already."  Lots (and lots and lots) of us can't teach math without a curriculum. 

[regentrude]

I am never going to inspire love and joy for math. :)  I don't give a flying flip about math being beautiful and all that.  Truly do not care.  And honestly,  that is not my goal.  My goal is for them to do the math with as little complaining as possible.

 

That is unfortunate, because it WILL affect your children's attitude about math and their performance as well.

 

Just think about having kids taught by a violin teacher who admits she does not give a flying flip about music being beautiful and just cares that the kid plays scales without complaining because that's the goal.

 

If I were you, I would outsource math instruction to somebody who cares about the subject.

 

[Shellydon]

That's probably why they hate it. I would hate it if I was told to do this way too easy for me task that is boring and repetitive and to do it without complaining. As a kid, that would be torture.

 

Math is beautiful and wonderful. Kids who are helped to see that don't normally hate math.

 

Pages of repetitive arithmetic aren't math, they are boring algorithms. They need to be learned eventually, but don't kill your kids joy with them.

 

Why are you having your kids do math that is easy for them? Give them a challenge! 2-3 challenging problems are worth far far more then endless, joy-killing, drill.

 

 We do the curriculum.  I am not going to skip ahead 4 grades and assign 3 problems they've never seen.  That certainly isn't going to give them a love a math. 

[Shellydon]

Folks, homeschooling is hard enough without being harangued by other homeschoolers for your choices.   I just wanted to know if other kids hated math. I assumed they did.  I was wrong.   You are all better teachers than me.  My children are going to suffer and live horrible lives because I have killed the joy of math.  Got it.  I am going to leave this now, I really don't need anymore criticism in my life. 

[Arcadia]

He does math with her most days.

Could you delegate math for all kids to your husband? I delegate music theory and peer review for writing to my husband because he is more enthusiastic and I am more critical.

 

8 questions in 2hrs on a meltdown/bad day is normal. If it is everyday, you are going to get frustrated with all your kids and be tired out emotionally.

[Southern Ivy]

Yep. It's also easy for kids to decide "everything else is so easy and I have to work at math, so I suck at math and I hate math".

 

It's also *really* easy for a kid to see their older sibling complaining about math and join in.

One of my brightest gifted students says she's dumb because she has to work at math. It seems to all boil down to "everything else is easy, so I must not be good at this. Therefore, I don't like it." 

[Haiku]

Yeah, I honestly don't think that parents have to love any certain subject to teach it well or have kids who love it. My dad LOVES science. He did his darndest to inspire in me a love of science. I found science to be completely boring until I was an adult. Then I developed a real interest in it.

 

I LOOOOVE languages. I love grammar. My son is not even remotely interested.

 

I really, really loathe cooking. It's one of my dd's greatest joys.

 

I do not think that Sheldon is doing anything wrong here, and making her feel guilty for not loving math will not solve her problem.

[Alte Veste Academy]

 We do the curriculum.  I am not going to skip ahead 4 grades and assign 3 problems they've never seen.  That certainly isn't going to give them a love a math. 

 

I had one math hater here. I "fixed" him by taking the suggestion to move him forward rapidly. Most people seem to believe that kids don't want to be challenged, but that is not the case here. Your child who can knock out a problem set in a short time but instead spends forever on it is probably bored. When I moved my hater from boredom with the material to the sweet spot of challenge, his attitude improved enormously. 

 

I do not think I have to love every subject for my kids to like/love them all. At the same time, I do feel that it is my responsibility to teach each subject with a positive attitude. Honestly, if we sent our kids to school, how many of us would accept a situation in which our kids' teachers conveyed a negative attitude about math? It was a huge priority for me to correct my kid's attitude toward math, because math is the gatekeeper to a ridiculous and growing number of careers. Personally, in this technological day and age, I can't even imagine having my main goal for math being that my kids get it done with minimum complaining.

 

Sheldon, I don't think you should feel like a failure, but I do think the answers to your OP should serve as a wake-up call to make some positive changes where math instruction is concerned. 

[hornblower]

Coursera also had a math course that had videos showing mindset and teaching grit in action.

 

Oh, oh, is is this one? It sounds so good & it just started. I think I'll do it if I can grab a copy of the book this weekend.

 

Learning How to Learn https://www.coursera.org/course/learning

 

the text is:

 

A Mind for Numbers: How to Excel at Math and Science (Even If You Flunked Algebra), by Barbara Oakley (Foreword by Terrence Sejnowski), ISBN: 978-0399165245.

 

 

"Engineering professor Barbara Oakley knows firsthand how it feels to struggle with math. She flunked her way through high school math and science courses, before enlisting in the army immediately after graduation. When she saw how her lack of mathematical and technical savvy severely limited her options—both to rise in the military and to explore other careers—she returned to school with a newfound determination to re-tool her brain to master the very subjects that had given her so much trouble throughout her entire life."

 

[Hunter]

Sheldon :grouphug:

 

if people were going to choose you or me from a bad mom award, I PROMISE you that they would pick ME.

 

I couldn't pass onto my children what had not been given and modeled to me. What I didn't give them was FAR more serious than any lacks of love for math. I did my best. You are doing your best and that best is FAR above the best of many other moms. Passing on a lack of love for math is not doing something "wrong".

 

I didn't think math was beautiful until I read certian books. I couldn't think something was beautful if I didn't even know what it was and had never seen a big picture. If all you have seen is a few pieces of a dog under a microscope, such as a hair, a claw, a piece of skin from the ear, and piece of tongue, you will NOT know the beauty of a dog. That is how it was for me.

 

I believe people that Shakespeare and poetry and clasical music and some other things are beautiful, and I do my best to present pieces of them to students as beautiful, but I have not yet had the time to really study the big picture and really understand these subjects enough to fully see the beauty and pass it on. And right NOW I just don't have the time. My goals for these subjects are pretty small and I'm sure considered negiligent to some here. I'm just human. I can only pass on what was given and modeled to ME.

 

I set reasonable self-education goals for myself. I set reasonable goals for any students that are entrusted to me, short or long term. I plug along doing my best, and just trust that whoever or whatever is in charge picks up the slack. I try not to shame myself–sometimes I'm really good at that! I try not to let the opionions of others cripple me to the point that I no longer can do my best. What they tell me I "should" do and what I can do are sometimes vastly different things.

 

It doesn't sould like "love of math" is an appropriate goal for YOUR family right NOW. That's okay! :grouphug:

[Alessandra]

Not necessarily. But if the math materials they use are written by somebody who does not enjoy math, and if they are taught by somebody who is not excited about math, attitudes rub off. I wonder whether general attitudes about math were different if the grownups were as excited about math as they are about reading to the kids... that would surely go a long way.

There have been studies about math phobic elementary teachers and how easily those subconscious attitudes are absorbed by kids, especially girls. Imagine having a reading phobic teacher who had the attitude "I was never good at reading"...

And much of the math curricula out there are just awfully boring and uninsipred.

 

FWIW, both my kids enjoy math, and both DH and I really really love math.

I agree. I adore math.

 

Ds begged for Snakes and Ladders as a preschooler and got a wonderful number sense from that. Then we did a generic workbook, with a different math subject on each page. By the time he got to K, he was doing 2nd-3rd grade level math. Sounded so advanced then, seems cute now. I adore math, and some of our happiest memories are doing extra math in the evenings.

 

Dd has multiple learning challenges. When I brought her home in 6th grade, I wanted to give her a firm math foundation, even though it meant starting at the beginning. We did Miquon, because dd is very visual. Every morning, math was the first thing she wanted to do. If she built things with the rods before the workbook, fine. We watched the Unboxed videos.

 

I always let dd have a big say in how we do math. For example, we have a number of programs, but we tried out a new one, Visible Thinking, from Singapore, because it clicked with dd. I keep track of subject matter and refer to Common Core standards near at hand on my iPad. But the modalities we use -- dd has lots of input.

 

Also, I make sure that dd knows we will slow down if things get difficult and spend as long as it takes until she feels comfortable with a concept or operation. I articulate this and follow through. With, ds, I did the opposite and assured him that we could skip through a book if he knew the material -- he seemed to know a lot without being taught, so there was a bit of a learning curve for me, lol.

 

I think my kids like math, partly because I do, but also because everything we did was guided by what they enjoyed, mathematically speaking.

[Ellie]

Folks, homeschooling is hard enough without being harangued by other homeschoolers for your choices.   I just wanted to know if other kids hated math. I assumed they did.  I was wrong.   You are all better teachers than me.  My children are going to suffer and live horrible lives because I have killed the joy of math.  Got it.  I am going to leave this now, I really don't need anymore criticism in my life. 

 

:grouphug:

 

Well, no, not all children hate math, so yes, your assumption was wrong.

 

But we aren't necessarily better teachers. Maybe some of us were just lucky enough to find The One Math Method that worked for our children before we all hated it.

[Alessandra]

Sheldon :grouphug:

 

if people were going to choose you or me from a bad mom award, I PROMISE you that they would pick ME.

:

No, Hunter, they would not pick you. Not if I were on the jury, lol. Oh, not Sheldon either.

 

Pick someone who is *not* on WTM, lol.

[Sahamamama]

One thing I did that sounds stupid but it did help was start calling it a bunch of different subjects.

 

So, for instance, when we were doing Saxon, there was 'verbal math' and 'mental math' and 'math lesson time' and 'math worksheet' and 'math speed worksheet'.  As opposed to 'math'.  In retrospect I should have called these arithmetic until we got to algebra.  But anyway, when I called it all 'math' as in 'It's time to do math now', it was just plain overwhelming.  1-2 hours of drudgery ahead!  Whereas when I broke it up, there were more boxes to check off and preen over, and no single thing was overwhelming in and of itself.

 

I did the same thing with language arts.  Learning reading, grammar, copywork, composition, editing, spelling, being read to, talking about books, etc. were each separate things. 

 

This helped tremendously.

 

Brilliant! I am going to do this! My girls would love this, they are all box-checkers. Don't know where they get it from.... :leaving:

[Korrale]

My son really likes math. However, being faced with a challenge, having to exert effort and doing things that are hard? Not so much. And I think for many kids there comes a time when they hit a wall in math. But they might also hit the wall in many other things in life. I don't think that means they hate.

[Hunter]

My son really hated to write anything down for math. But he hated talking, writing and communicating in general. I kinda used to torture him about writing stuff down and using traditional notation.

 

My ex-husband was a math genius, but didn't take anything but basic math in high-school, when he was even there at all. So when he decided he needed to USE math, he just created his own math language to describe what he was doing and building. The worst part was when he used traditional notation for something other than what everyone uses it for! His own unique symbols at least alerted others to what was going on.

 

It was amazing the number of highly trained people that could not understand that the notation they use is just one possible language to describe more universal ideas. :lol:

 

My ex-husband's unique notation was one of the reasons we lived in poverty and life was so hard. I think I was a bit over the top with ds trying to prevent history from repeating itself. I was doing the best I could, though. I was young, sick, cold and hungry, and I was kinda tunnel visioned that it wasn't going to be my fault if his wife and kids were cold and hungry. I couldn't see past my own little bubble at the time.

[rimk3]

I think it has a great deal to do with that "sweet spot" in math, not too boring and mundane, but not so challenging that frustration and anxiety bubble up.  

 

My ds came home from public school last year and he did MUS alpha and beta from Sept to Jan.  It was helpful to build confidence because it was "easy" for him and also filled some holes and solidified some concepts for him.  But by Jan, he was so tired of the pages of problems that had become boring and mundane.  We switched to MEP.  He loved it.  Until he didn't.  I've come to realize that he needs concepts introduced in simpler ways and then wants to go deeper once he is a little more familiar with the concept.  So, we are doing some math tweaking now by using a few different things and I am letting him choose math and just watching and listening, so I can get a better idea of what really works for him and me.  It is kind of an experiment right now, but we had so much fun today.  We read from Math for Smarty Pants (I recommend this book, especially for children and parents who do not like math), watched an Vi Hart video and had fun making our own triangle party.  Sometimes it's not about changing a curriculum completely.  Maybe they need a change of pace for a bit or maybe they would benefit from a choice between a couple math resources?  Just some ideas.   

 

Also, my ds does much better if we do math together.  I believe that is why he loved MEP when we made the change.  I almost feel like we are in a stage of math similar to the partnership writing stage BW talks about.  I'm his math partner and he does much better with a partner right now.  I'm willing to bet there are other kids out there like him too.  

 

 

[EmilyGF]

I think Sheldon isn't reading this anymore, but I don't think hating math personally has to be passed down generationally. My mom "never understood math" and my 2nd/3rd grade teacher apparently didn't feel comfortable with math or science (she told me when I was 18 and heading to a science university). Both of them hid their fear and encouraged me to keep working.

 

I love math. A friend asked me why a few days ago. All I could say was that I never knew a reason not to, and my dad always told me, "Just wait til calculus. That's when math gets really fun." I believed him, for whatever reason.

[happypamama]

DD used to hate math. She didn't care about the patterns and tricks and coolness of it all. Now she tolerates it and even occasionally likes it. She's doing pre-algebra, and it's easy, with little new info (and most of what is new is just a variation of something she's already known), but since it's Saxon, it's varied enough that it's not too repetitive.

 

My fourth grader loves math. He speaks math, though, and we use Singapore, which is a great fit for him. He loves the little patterns and cool things. I hope his attitude continues.

 

(And my kindergartener likes math too, but I suspect that is a) because we use MEP for him, and the reception level was all cute and colorful and everything, and b) because he's the third child and wants to be big like everyone else, and "doing math" gets him to that goal -- IOW, he sees no reason to question liking it.)

 

Now, I have to say that my father was an AP calculus teacher for over twenty years, and he loves math and always gave me the impression that I could do math, that it was nothing to fear. We did math problems for fun as a family, and while it isn't my favorite subject (give me history and languages, please!), I enjoy it. I am like my son and enjoy the cool stuff about math, but I think my positive feelings about math probably help my kids not to hate it.

 

OP, are you having them do too much, and/or is it way too easy for them? For instance, Saxon has a lot of problems, and DD would get bored and make careless mistakes, so I cut down the number of problems, and her rate of careless errors went way down. And I stopped doing the basic Singapore workbooks for my son because they were too easy and tedious. Tedium is bad, especially when it comes to math.

 

I LOVE the idea another poster had, to call it all different things. That makes total sense. We have Language Arts and a bunch of subsubjects, so why don't we have Math Arts and a bunch of subsubjects too?

[Momling]

When my daughter was at her worst with regard to math, I bought teaching textbooks and she did it for a semester. It's not my favorite program, but I think it has a place. It took me out of the equation (ouch, terrible pun) and allowed her to get some math in without our relationship being involved. Because the computer sets and grades the problems, she had no one to get upset with. She just did the math and moved on. After a semester she wanted to go back to a regular book and we did.

[lewelma]

I am never going to inspire love and joy for math. :)  I don't give a flying flip about math being beautiful and all that.  Truly do not care.  And honestly,  that is not my goal.  My goal is for them to do the math with as little complaining as possible.

 

Sheldon, I'm a math tutor.  When kids first come to me, they hate math.  It takes me a few months typically to turn it around.  I have found that my role is about 50% psychological manipulation and 50% math helper. Kids have to feel like they *can* do the work, and then they have to *want* to do it. And it is my *job* to convince them of both of these things. You cannot lead them by a nose ring -- it just doesn't work.  When I am working with a student, I am thinking ahead about *how* I can influence his perceptions, *what* exactly can I say to make a difference.  It has to be subtle.  In the end, they need to feel like *they* made the change; not that *I* convinced them of anything.  I do very delicate work.  And I do it effectively.

 

I think you need to start thinking this way.  You do *not* need to see the beauty in math -- I don't.  I, like you, see it as a means to an end. To me, math is simply the tool I use to study science. But I do know that *I* am the one that sets the stage for how my students view themselves as learners and how they perceive of math -- I know my job is 50% subtle psychology. 

 

Good Luck!

 

Ruth in NZ

[lewelma]

Folks, homeschooling is hard enough without being harangued by other homeschoolers for your choices.   I just wanted to know if other kids hated math. I assumed they did.  I was wrong.   You are all better teachers than me.  My children are going to suffer and live horrible lives because I have killed the joy of math.  Got it.  I am going to leave this now, I really don't need anymore criticism in my life. 

 

Gulp.  Well, I did not read the whole thread.  Sheldon, we all get it wrong sometimes.  I think some days that I have completely ruined my younger by doing too much for him, causing him to lack initiative and motivation.  OK, I'll accept that (minus the ruined part), and now I need to figure out how to fix it.  I need to make a choice to put it high on my priorities list.  And then, I have to move oh so slowly towards my goal.  I can't just pounce on him and say 'well, now you have to be independent.' I have to promise myself that slow and steady wins the race and that I will hold to the course for as long as it takes.  And that I will be kind.

 

I think all homeschoolers struggle.  Each of us can only do the best we can, and strive to improve most days.

 

Ruth in NZ

[J-rap]

Good question!  None of my kids liked math at all.  I didn't like it when I was a student, but when I had to re-learn it as a teacher, I loved it!  I had hoped my enthusiasm would carry over to my kids, but it didn't.  Still, it helped build discipline in them, and they are all pretty good at it.  Now, as college students, several of them actually enjoy it.  But it's too late to go the math-science route for them.  They're all super creative and that part of their brain took over.  I often wonder what I could have done differently to instill a real enjoyment for math in them at a young age.

 

[Sahamamama]

But for real math, you won't just get a number as a result. You may get a beautiful function that may have cool properties and special behavior... like a character in a novel. Or you may come to an interesting conclusion that has an elegant proof which is equivalent to a beautifully written story.

In math, something will happen as well... the complicated expression may simplify in surprising ways, or you find out something about the behavior of your complex character...eh...function...or it turns out that something you had suspected (like you might suspect the butler to be the murderer in a detective novel) is actually correct...

 

Forget about arithmetic. That's not really math.

 

But it's what we're doing from K through whenever we're "done." I have to admit, I have always and still do perceive that as "math," and for me it's incredibly boring. That's why Garga's "it's just a number" made me laugh. :) I used to say that myself!

 

What can we as non-mathy moms do to rescue math for our children? People talk about "the beauty of mathematics," and I just don't get it. I'm not saying it isn't there, but I certainly haven't seen it. For me, it's "just a number," and all that work for "just a number" for years felt so pointless. Now, I suppose I have a utilitarian view of math -- learn enough to manage your finances? I know that's missing the boat, regentrude. But it's a boat I've never figured out how to get on.

 

Any ideas?

[Sahamamama]

Use a curriculum or supplememt that includes problem solving and number theory before preAlgebra.

Join a math club or math circle.

Borrow the BSA Belt Loop/Pins and Webelos ideas for Math and codes.

View museum exhibits.

Play and invent games and puzzles that use math ideas.

Introduce the idea of proof and solutions, instead of just answers.

 

I'm thankful for these suggestions, and can see how to implement some of them. However, for some of them, I do think that I'd need a stronger math background in order to give sense and content to the activities. Sort of like, I'm not an astronomer, so when my child and I are looking at the nighttime sky, I can say things like, "There's the Big Dipper, and there's Orion, that's his belt, his sword, I think that star is Betelgeuse, but I'd need to look it up, I'm not sure what that is, that over there is Cassiopeia, and so on." But I can't explain or instruct beyond that, I can't answer questions beyond that, I don't have a big picture beyond "this is that." If we were studying astronomy, then the instructor would need to be our text (or a video), and I would be learning some things alongside my students. Or, I would study ahead of time, and actually know more than I know now. But that takes time and energy. I just can't be an "expert" at everything!

 

It's the same with math for me. So a suggestion to "introduce the idea of proof and solution" or "view museum exhibits" makes my knees tremble. ;)

 

Do we have to be mathematicians (who love math and see the beauty in it) in order to give our children an adequate and functional foundation in math?

 

I really don't think so. In a way, while I agree that modern Western culture still does have a prejudice against math (as in, "I'm so bad at math, isn't that great?"), at the same time, I think that currently, there is so much panic over getting our children to be STEM-worthy students.

 

In a way, I agree with Sheldon -- like her, I am not trying to get my students to see the beauty in math if doing so requires me to be mathy or explain things that I have no ability to explain. That will just never happen. I do feel like a failure for it, though.

 

But when I ask, "What can we do...?" the methods seem to require a "mathy mother," which I am not. I think that is why I always revert to a "just get it done" mindset, because it's the only approach that I can actually make work in my reality. And I agree with Sheldon, it's hard enough, without being made to feel guilty that we are ruining our children because we don't see the beauty in math.

[PeterPan]

I am never going to inspire love and joy for math. :)  I don't give a flying flip about math being beautiful and all that.  Truly do not care.  And honestly,  that is not my goal.  My goal is for them to do the math with as little complaining as possible.

Maybe you mis-titled this thread and were wanting absolution??  Pudewa says kids ENJOY doing what they can do WELL.  If your kid sees application and connects with the material, they can enjoy it.  I'm back to teaching my dd math, and things she doesn't enjoy when they're dry on a page or screen she enjoys with me.  One year we took all our dry problems and turned them into Lord of the Rings stories.  Don't have time for that and think math ought to just be done?  Well fine, but there are things people do when they want kids to enjoy it.  

 

Now we're doing geometry, so we talk about the geometry of quilting, Jinny Beyer, and advanced applications.  We talk Holodecks and Star Trek and turning things 3D.  I TELL her it's fun, much like what EmilyGF's father did.  

 

People say grammar is dry, and I do the same thing, bringing it to life with enthusiasm, manipulatives, crazy stories, whiteboards, games, whatever it takes.  I don't see how you take something that is inherently interest (grammar, words, language, talking) and reduce it to something dry, boring, and formulaic.  

 

So whatever, live the way you want.  My dd has extremely low processing speed with a very bright IQ, so I never had the luxury of forcing speed on her.  It's something you can do to your kids because they happen to process faster, but that doesn't mean it's the only way to work.  If you want to work differently, change it.  If you don't and you want it to be this in/out, dry and done subject, then whatever, your business. We all make choices about what is best for our home. It takes time to slow down and smell the mathematical roses, shoot the formula arrows, and discover the equation dwarves and hidden stories. Live as you want.

[wapiti]

Sahamamama, just thinking out loud, for an elementary-level student I would try an approach to problem solving as "help me figure out this puzzle; I wonder if we can do it" and then work together, perhaps one problem per day, or several one day per week, etc.  This would require having a resource with well-written, interesting, cool problems to choose from (which resources to recommend would depend on the age/math level of the student), but *without* the pressure of the expectation that the student must be able to solve it/get 100%.  I would look to the thrill of solving the puzzle, like a game.  When you are approaching a problem as a team, in some funny ways not having a strong math background may make it easier to demonstrate problem-solving skills out loud ("hmm what should we do next?  I have no idea!  Let's think about this for a while...  what if...")  Eta, it's especially ok to verbalize trying different routes with a problem that turn out not to work and then trying something else ("Rats!  That's not going to work.  We'll have to try something else.  Let's read the problem again... what information haven't we used yet...").  A white board may be helpful here, with a marker for each of you.

 

Eta, for a high school student, I'd look to some cool geometry problems for beauty in math in addition to the contest problems, which are the types of problems we are talking about.  What ages would you need resources for?