S/o to Duggar Daughter Thread…Chaste Men Sexually Confused After Marriage

[umsami]

Saw this, and thought it might be a good read for those who are raising their children to remain virgins until marriage.

 

"They spend the first 20-something years of their lives being told that sex is wrong," Diefendorf told Live Science. "They're expected to make this transition from the beastly to the sacred, but they don't really have the tools to be able to do that effectively."

 

 

http://www.livescience.com/47431-virginity-pledging-men-sexually-confused.html

 

 

Edited to add…I think this article did a better job, and also explains the limits of the study. (15 people) http://blog.seattlepi.com/bigscience/2014/08/20/video-male-virginity-training-may-lead-to-sexual-struggles-in-marriage/

[maize]

The way we present sex in our family is that is is wonderful and good and is meant as a sacred blessing and responsibility to be expressed only within marriage.

 

Of course the transition to marriage is an adjustment, but in my experience it was not difficult or negative for either dh or I.

[maize]

To be honest I am rather weirded out by the author's suggestion that support groups in which men discuss the details of their marital sexual experiences and challenges would be appropriate. Support groups for guys trying to avoid pornography etc. make sense because that is really their private issue to share as they want. But the relationship between my husband and I belongs to both of us together, it doesn't seem appropriate to me for one of us to go discuss details with a random support group. If challenges arose in that department that we couldn't resolve between the two of us we would seek help from a qualified professional.

[Dory]

If someone tells their kid that sex is wrong it sure would cause trouble later on for the guy. In our house, sex is a wonderful thing that is best if saved for marriage. It's never made out to be something beastly or horrible, it's amazing. Telling a kid that a specific, although fun, behaviour should be limited within certain parameters is normal with everything else, why with sex is it suddenly horrible to give healthy parameters? My youngest finds it wonderfully relieving to sit on his bed naked, reading. I tell him that's fine in his room, but he needs to get dressed before we go to the store. Maybe he will now think his whole body is horrible because I won't let him be naked at the grocery store.

[6packofun]

Saw this, and thought it might be a good read for those who are raising their children to remain virgins until marriage.

 

"They spend the first 20-something years of their lives being told that sex is wrong," Diefendorf told Live Science. "They're expected to make this transition from the beastly to the sacred, but they don't really have the tools to be able to do that effectively."

 

 

http://www.livescience.com/47431-virginity-pledging-men-sexually-confused.html

 

That's not being "chaste" in the true sense of the word.  That description is more like sexual threatening. lol   (Oh, and lying.)  I honestly don't know anyone who was actually told that "sex is wrong" without any qualifications about the difference between sex outside of marriage and sex within marriage.  (From a faith perspective or not.)

 

(These are just my comments from that quote alone; I will now go read the whole article!  :P  I'm sure it's interesting!)

 

[MyLittleWonders]

I think the article is taking a very narrow focus look at those who teach no sex before/outside of marriage. I am thankful for the teaching of the Catholic Church's Theology of the Body. My experiences (only as a adult; I was not raised in Christianity) between how sexuality was taught/preached about while an evangelical Christian and know as a Catholic is night and day. No purity pledges, purity rings, or purity balls here.

[Hyacinth]

Didn't read the whole article, but the quote in the OP is not painting an accurate picture. No one I know tells their children that sex is "wrong" or "beastly."

 

Best saved for marriage? Yes. But that's an entirely different message.

[marbel]

My protestant denomination doesn't have purity rings, etc.  They teach that sex within the context of marriage is a beautiful thing.  Pre-marital counseling includes reading and talking about sex as a gift from God, not something "animalistic" or "beastly" as the article said.   I don't doubt that that the article is truthful for some but it is not universal.

[CaffeineDiary]

Saw this, and thought it might be a good read for those who are raising their children to remain virgins until marriage.

 

"They spend the first 20-something years of their lives being told that sex is wrong," Diefendorf told Live Science. "They're expected to make this transition from the beastly to the sacred, but they don't really have the tools to be able to do that effectively."

 

 

http://www.livescience.com/47431-virginity-pledging-men-sexually-confused.html

 

I think there is a continuum of sex advice and teaching that parents give (or don't give) that ranges from "neutral" to "unhelpful" to "useful" to "matter of fact" to "ANTI-SEX-OBSESSED AND CREEPY."

 

The advice "Sex(footnote 1) has these benefits and these risks, and deferring certain types of sex until you're in a committed relationship helps ameliorate these risks" seems uncontroversial to me, whether or not the kid(s) take it.

 

On the other end of the spectrum, we have the whole Purity Ball thing where daughters go to dances with their dads and "pledge" their virginity and EW EW EW STOP DOING THAT TO YOUR DAUGHTER YOU ARE SO CREEPY STOP STOP STOP STOP CREEPY STOP DANGER STOP.  Giving young people (especially young women) the message that their virginity is or should be an essential part of their identity and that if they lose their virginity they lose value is just so clearly the stupidest thing ever that it squicks me out on a fundamental level.  

 

Footnote 1: I have a pet peeve that we tend to view "sex" as referring only to penis-in-vagina sex, which leads to all sorts of weird complications as young people figure out who they are, what they like, and what they want to do.  Like with sex advice, sex itself is a continuum.  For me personally, I think that the sexual activities I had as a young person were incredibly valuable and made me better at my mature sex and relationships.  For other people, that might not be true.  In the end, each of us has to choose our own path to sexual maturity, and a society that allows for experimentation, mistakes, and changed minds without insult or recrimination is a stronger society.  In my opinion.

[MedicMom]

It may be TMI, but this was not a problem for my fundamentalist-raised DH.

We did not save kissing for the wedding but we were engaged before our first kiss. Everything else we saved for that first night, which was quite nice, thankyouverymuch.

[goldberry]

Both DH and I were raised that sex is intended and most enjoyed within the marital arrangement.  We had no problems and have a very open and enjoyable sexual relationship. 

 

I had a friend raised in the same environment, but her parents communicated the concept to her totally differently.  From the way her parents communicated, sex was "nasty".  Yep...she had some problems when she got married.

 

So...totally can go either way based on parenting.

[poppy]

Wow that made people defensive.

 

[Word Nerd]

This conclusion appears to be based on "several" interviews a doctoral student who seems to have a particular bias had with a group of 15 men. It isn't even clear how they are supposedly sexually confused after marriage. 

[Crimson Wife]

Without getting into TMI, let's just say that the first time between two adult virgins is not necessarily awkward or unpleasant. Frankly, I think a big reason why many people have a bad first time is because they had been drinking. Drunk TeA is often awkward and unpleasant even if you're experienced.

[Catwoman]

"Animalistic and foul?" Really? :glare:

 

I have never known anyone who taught their kids anything like that.

 

Sensationalistic much? :rolleyes:

[sassenach]

Saw this, and thought it might be a good read for those who are raising their children to remain virgins until marriage.

 

 

"They spend the first 20-something years of their lives being told that sex is wrong," Diefendorf told Live Science. "They're expected to make this transition from the beastly to the sacred, but they don't really have the tools to be able to do that effectively."

 

http://www.livescience.com/47431-virginity-pledging-men-sexually-confused.html

BS.

 

And who said sex is wrong? Certainly not any Christian parent that I've met.

[Dory]

BS.

 

And who said sex is wrong? Certainly not any Christian parent that I've met.

 

To be fair, I know an older woman who does come at sex from this direction. She has numerous issues from the past though that were never dealt with and it spilled into her parenting as it always does. All her kids have struggled in their marriages.

[sassenach]

Wow that made people defensive.

You know, that's a little like me posting, "Children of atheist will be incapable of maintaining a monogamous relationship, because their parents raise them in a sexual free for all environment."

 

And then calling those parents defensive when they call that statement out as BS.

 

It seems like you're feigning innocence just to stir the pot. And I find that silly.

[sassenach]

To be fair, I know an older woman who does come at sex from this direction. She has numerous issues from the past though that were never dealt with and it spilled into her parenting as it always does. All her kids have struggled in their marriages.

I have run into that and, at least in my experience, 100% of the time it was connected to childhood sexual abuse that the parent suffered.

[CaffeineDiary]

"Animalistic and foul?" Really? :glare:

 

I have never known anyone who taught their kids anything like that.

 

Sensationalistic much? :rolleyes:

 

I knew a guy who had 2 kids.  He had had sex with his wife twice.  Because his wife thought that way.

 

Eventually, he divorced her.  That was a great decision on his part. 

[Catwoman]

I knew a guy who had 2 kids. He had had sex with his wife twice. Because his wife thought that way.

 

Eventually, he divorced her. That was a great decision on his part.

But that was one person with obvious issues.

 

The article is trying to make it sound like it's a common thing to teach children to feel this way.

[El...]

I don't think that was a very well-defined study. It looks like he had a prejudice to reinforce and found a way to do that without too much work.

 

I'm sure there are some people with warped viewpoints, but I've been to a number of weddings lately of young, conservative, chaste people, and boy oh boy, they look to me like they are going to figure things out very happily and quickly! :)

 

And, good grief to the below!

 

 

I knew a guy who had 2 kids.  He had had sex with his wife twice.  Because his wife thought that way.

 

Eventually, he divorced her.  That was a great decision on his part. 

 

[CaffeineDiary]

And, good grief to the below!

 

 

Good grief indeed.  It took him 12 years to realize that leaving was the right thing to do. He's much happier now.

[PrairieSong]

I knew a guy who had 2 kids. He had had sex with his wife twice. Because his wife thought that way.

 

Eventually, he divorced her. That was a great decision on his part.

I knew a family who had two sons. When the mom told one of the boys about the facts of life, he said, "You mean you and dad did that TWICE???"

[Catwoman]

Good grief indeed. It took him 12 years to realize that leaving was the right thing to do. He's much happier now.

I feel sorry for the woman, too. If she really loved her husband, but couldn't get past whatever was causing her to have those feelings, the divorce must have been absolutely heartbreaking for her.

 

I would suspect that she may have been a victim of sexual abuse, if her revulsion was that strong.

[maize]

Good grief indeed.  It took him 12 years to realize that leaving was the right thing to do. He's much happier now.

 

I hope she got some kind of therapy :(

 

Sexual inhibitions in women can be a real problem and I think can be related to negative teaching about sex. The women I have personally known who struggled with serious inhibitions were victims of childhood sexual abuse, though.

[maize]

I knew a family who had two sons. When the mom told one of the boys about the facts of life, he said, "You mean you and dad did that TWICE???"

 

I think one of my kids said something like this to me once  :lol:

 

(I did explain that sex is not only about procreation and pregnancy does not result from every sexual act...)

[PrairieSong]

I wonder if the author of that article has ever read the Song of Songs.

[CaffeineDiary]

I feel sorry for the woman, too. If she really loved her husband, but couldn't get past whatever was causing her to have those feelings, the divorce must have been absolutely heartbreaking for her.

 

I would suspect that she may have been a victim of sexual abuse, if her revulsion was that strong.

 

Yep, it was awful for everyone all around.  I have no idea what her personal history was, but I know he tried for many years to convince her to try therapy.  I will say - and this is not a slam on christians in general, but just a specific anecdote from this one case - that her religion was part of the 'shield' that let her refuse to deal with the issue and led directly to the disintegration of their marriage.  As in, she'd directly shame my friend for being so un-christian as to prioritize his sexual needs over her desire to not have sex, at all, ever.

 

All of which, again, is not to say "Oh hey all Christians == crazy anti-sex zealots", because that's clearly not true.  BUT, when I read a story like this, given my personal life experiences, I just say to myself "Yep, those people are totally out there and are common enough that I've encountered them a few times."(Footnote 1)

 

 

Footnote 1: Totally out there and having their daughters pledge purity to them at creepy daughter-dad dances EW EW EW EW EW STOP IT EW

[maize]

Yep, it was awful for everyone all around.  I have no idea what her personal history was, but I know he tried for many years to convince her to try therapy.  I will say - and this is not a slam on christians in general, but just a specific anecdote from this one case - that her religion was part of the 'shield' that let her refuse to deal with the issue and led directly to the disintegration of their marriage.  As in, she'd directly shame my friend for being so un-christian as to prioritize his sexual needs over her desire to not have sex, at all, ever.

 

 

 

I think any worldview can be manipulated to justify a person's choices and actions if that is what the person wants to do. A belief in evolution and natural selection, for example, could be used to justify atrocities as "survival of the fittest". Doesn't mean the belief caused the atrocities.

[CaffeineDiary]

I think any worldview can be manipulated to justify a person's choices and actions if that is what the person wants to do. A belief in evolution and natural selection, for example, could be used to justify atrocities as "survival of the fittest". Doesn't mean the belief caused the atrocities.

 

Eh.  I think religions and churches feel specially entitled to muck about in people's sex lives in a way that your example doesn't really capture.

 

"My belief in evolution and natural selection means that it's OK to refuse to ever have sex with my spouse ever AND demand that they stay in the marriage." --> Everyone says "What?  That is COMPLETELY CRAZY TALK.  Your spouse should totally divorce you RIGHT AWAY because you are INSANE."

 

"My religious faith means that I will never have non-procreative sex with my spouse, who also, BY THE WAY, wants to do unspeakably dirty things with his or her mouth, which obviously has NOTHING to do with making babies." --> An endless series of church group counseling sessions are had to try to gently explore your relationship with Jesus or Muhammed and perhaps explain that maybe God is OK with you having sex for pleasure.  Meanwhile, the miserable spouse gets pressured to continue to try to "make the marriage work" even though s/he is, quite obviously, MARRIED TO A CRAZY PERSON WHO IS ABUSING HIM/HER.

 

Again again again: I agree with your point that people will manipulate their world views to justify their choices.  Surely if this person was an atheist, he or she might have had the same problems.  But I think it's disingenuous to pretend that many religions don't allot themselves special privilege to, immorally in my opinion, interfere in their members' sex lives, in a way that other belief systems don't.

 

TLDR: I've never heard some one say "Yeah, I'm going to continue to suffer through a sexless and frankly loveless marriage because I don't want to look bad to my fellow members of the Book-of-the-Month club."

[maize]

Eh.  I think religions and churches feel specially entitled to muck about in people's sex lives in a way that your example doesn't really capture.

 

"My belief in evolution and natural selection means that it's OK to refuse to ever have sex with my spouse ever AND demand that they stay in the marriage." --> Everyone says "What?  That is COMPLETELY CRAZY TALK.  Your spouse should totally divorce you RIGHT AWAY because you are INSANE."

 

"My religious faith means that I will never have non-procreative sex with my spouse, who also, BY THE WAY, wants to do unspeakably dirty things with his or her mouth, which obviously has NOTHING to do with making babies." --> An endless series of church group counseling sessions are had to try to gently explore your relationship with Jesus or Muhammed and perhaps explain that maybe God is OK with you having sex for pleasure.  Meanwhile, the miserable spouse gets pressured to continue to try to "make the marriage work" even though s/he is, quite obviously, MARRIED TO A CRAZY PERSON WHO IS ABUSING HIM/HER.

 

Again again again: I agree with your point that people will manipulate their world views to justify their choices.  Surely if this person was an atheist, he or she might have had the same problems.  But I think it's disingenuous to pretend that many religions don't allot themselves special privilege to, immorally in my opinion, interfere in their members' sex lives, in a way that other belief systems don't.

 

TLDR: I've never heard some one say "Yeah, I'm going to continue to suffer through a sexless and frankly loveless marriage because I don't want to look bad to my fellow members of the Book-of-the-Month club."

 

 

I don't know of any religion that teaches a woman to never have sex with her husband.

 

ETA I just don't follow how you think this is a religion or church mucking with someone's sex life. This is a person mucking around with their sex life, and choosing to use religion to justify it. 

[CaffeineDiary]

I don't know of any religion that teaches a woman to never have sex with her husband.

 

ETA I just don't follow how you think this is a religion or church mucking with someone's sex life. This is a person mucking around with their sex life, and choosing to use religion to justify it. 

 

I'm saying that the mere fact that religions feel privileged to interfere in the sexual sphere AT ALL transforms the discussion about that person's mucking around from "This crazy thing you are doing is crazy and you have to stop, end of discussion" into "Let's have a theological discussion where we consider whether or not the crazy thing you are doing is ok or not."

 

So it makes everything worse.

[Crimson Wife]

 Anyway, I have not read the duggar thead? But I laughed at the last sentence of this article:

"The upshot was that, though their marriages may be happy and healthy overall, "when it comes to their sex lives, that's where they are struggling," Diefendorf said."

 

Ha! Duh. That's true of all marriages viewed through ANY lense at all. That many of them are basically acceptable, but with some intimacy issues. And it is telling that that is an acceptable status quo.

 

And the flip side is that another couple could be going through a VERY rocky patch and struggling hard to keep the marriage from ending but still be having enjoyable TeA. Overall health of the marriage and quality of TeA are not necessarily linked.

 

Marriage is hard work and there will be ups and downs. Taking seriously Biblical teachings on marriage and divorce should hopefully help strengthen the couple's commitment to each other to ride out the rocky patches, but ultimately, only God is privy to the full truth about a couple's marriage. You can lie to your spouse and even yourself, but you cannot lie to God.

[Crimson Wife]

I don't know of any religion that teaches a woman to never have sex with her husband.

 

The Shakers believed in absolute chastity, and couples who were already married when they joined the Shaker faith had to pledge to live separate, chaste lives.

[maize]

The Shakers believed in absolute chastity, and couples who were already married when they joined the Shaker faith had to pledge to live separate, chaste lives.

 

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about the Shakers. Hopefully any couple who joined them was in mutual agreement in making such a decision!

 

( ETA still not really relevant I think unless this woman was a Shaker :D )

[Hikin' Mama]

Well, that's certainly not what I told my kids.

 

Exactly who does it hurt when two people choose to wait for marriage to have sex and why are people so bothered by it?

[Crimson Wife]

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about the Shakers. Hopefully any couple who joined them was in mutual agreement in making such a decision!

 

I grew up in a town that used to have a Shaker colony, and for a while my parents even lived on Ann Lee Road. I get the sense from the history we studied that joining the Shakers as a married couple was considered a socially acceptable alternative to divorce. Divorce was a scandal that would lead to being ostracized, but joining the Shakers was a "holy" act.

[LostSurprise]

Where was the unnatural sexual confusion? 

 

What I saw was men in their first sexual relationship trying to figure out if it's going well and if what they do and feel is normal. Perhaps they wondered if the sex was as fulfilling to their wives as it is to them. Maybe they felt guilty if things weren't as equitable as they thought they would be. Maybe they're worried about their performance. Maybe they're surprised at still having sexual feelings toward others or still having interest in masturbation. Maybe it's hard to talk about these things because there are a lot of emotions tied to them and they're looking for a way to feel 'normal' or 'right.' 

 

Is what I'm reading really that different from the beginning of any man's first in-love sexual relationship? 

[PrincessMommy]

The way we present sex in our family is that is is wonderful and good and is meant as a sacred blessing and responsibility to be expressed only within marriage.

 

Of course the transition to marriage is an adjustment, but in my experience it was not difficult or negative for either dh or I.

I agree.. we never teach that sex is wrong, but that it should be preserved for marriage.

[Trish]

Well we don't present sex that way, but wouldn't this hold true no matter when the person became sexually active?

 

 

[ChristusG]

Teaching that sex is wrong?? I don't know anyone who does that. I'm teaching my kids that sex is a beautiful, lovely way to express love to their spouse.....spouse, meaning when they are married. I definitely wouldn't teach them that sex is wrong. Just something that needs to be saved.

[AimeeM]

I've never heard an advocate for abstinence until marriage EVER try to infer, suggest, whatever, that s*x is terrible, ungodly, etc. Never. Should be saved for marriage? Sure, but it's presented as a wonderful, sacred kind of thing... not terrible.

 

[FaithManor]

Back in the late 20's and early 30's, there was an evangelist and his wife from the former Pentacost Band that went around preaching that sex without the express desire to get pregnant as agreed upon by both spouses was indeed sin, dirty, and abhorrent to God.

 

These kinds of extremes are rare. Strange and almost creepy, but rare. Definitely not mainstream religious thought.

[goldberry]

 

To be fair, I know an older woman who does come at sex from this direction. She has numerous issues from the past though that were never dealt with and it spilled into her parenting as it always does. All her kids have struggled in their marriages.

&

 

I have seen it too. It is in the minority though. And the times I have seen it have been some strictly personal issues that someone uses religion to justify. Aren't there people in the non-religious-conservative group that also have issues with sex? As a result of their history? It's not limited to the religious community.

[Chris in VA]

I'm saying that the mere fact that religions feel privileged to interfere in the sexual sphere AT ALL transforms the discussion about that person's mucking around from "This crazy thing you are doing is crazy and you have to stop, end of discussion" into "Let's have a theological discussion where we consider whether or not the crazy thing you are doing is ok or not."

 

So it makes everything worse.

 

(Bold mine)

Some don't consider it interference to have their religion be about the total person.

[Joanne]

I think there is a damaging and unhelpful culture around certain presentations of "abstinence only".

 

The second article stated:

 

 

Many of the men spoke about struggling with pornography and masturbation which they see as damaging to their promise of abstinence.

 

 

 

“There’s an obsession with virginity in this country,†Diefendorf said in the news release. “And we forget to have informative, successful conversations on sex.â€

 

 

 

When several layers of factors are in place, the content works together to communicate that sex, lust, sexual energy is bad and virginity becomes elevated to a strange status.

 

I agree that not every abstinence teaching does that - but the truth is many do.

 

[abba12]

I've heard of the families who teach sex as bad and yuck, etc. I knew a teen girl who got REALLY upset at the mention of tampons and the concept of them, because that meant touching 'there'. But they are very much in the minority.

 

I've been badly harmed by sexual abuse, and I personally may never be able to enjoy it the way others do. But I know it's supposed to be a wonderful thing. I know it's very special, a great gift from God to married couples. The body is an amazing thing. And my children will know the same, despite my own past. I hope they look forward to their wedding nights.

 

I've never understood the awkward 'ick' attitude about our children having sex (as adults). How can we be weirded out by the idea of our kids doing a good and wonderful thing in the right context.

[SemiSweet]

Well, that's certainly not what I told my kids.

 

Exactly who does it hurt when two people choose to wait for marriage to have sex and why are people so bothered by it?

I don't think it harms anyone IF it's their choice, but I do think it harms people when their virginity is touted as the most important thing about them, as it seems to be in some circles. I do not view sex as a moral issue, save it for marriage if you want, don't save it for marriage if you don't, have sex with 100 people for all I care, it is only immoral if it causes direct harm to another human being (this would not include hand wringing parents). However, from my perspective, people are bothered by the push for virginity, especially girls, that seems to have gotten a lot of press lately (purity balls and whatnot). I find the emphasis on virginity to be a particularly scary and nasty tactic of religion.

[Guest]

TBH, I can't really imagine myself saying, "sex is a wonderful gift from God to be saved for and only shared with your spouse." Is this what people say to their kids? That sounds so corny to me. I don't put any value qualifiers on what sex is when I have discussed it with my kids. I definitely don't want them to think it's nasty and I have a hunch they can conclude that it's wonderful without my help. It just seems weird to me that one tells their children sex is wonderful, but follows that with limits about how it's not to be enjoyed for ten more years.