Malaysia Airlines flight missing

[Arcadia]

With electrical failure, aircraft would be able to fly for 30-90 minutes while the captain looked for a place, as I said earlier, to land or ditch....and if ditching, to do so in a location where help could arrive relatively quickly.

Malaysia has many domestic airports. Penang Airport is probably the nearest to the last known location and the runways there can support a Boeing landing. Langkawi airport is also near the last known location.

The Straits of Melaka is well patrolled, hopefully the MY navy or Indonesia navy "see something" if the plane lands in the Straits.

Indonesia has experience with airplane crash SAR, SilkAir nosedive and crashed in Palembang, Sumatra, Indonesia in 1997.

 

ETA:

This article might interest you, posted in New Straits Times today  "Aviation expert suggest 6 reasons for disappearance"

ETA:

On why submarines weren't deploy for the SAR and that the Navy sonar systems are being utilized for the SAR. (link)

"He said this was because the submarines, which are installed only with sonar detector systems,  were incapable of performing the task of detecting static objects on the seabed.

 

"The sonar systems installed on the navy's submarines are unable to detect or track any static objects at sea surface level, but it can only detect moving objects or those emitting sounds," he told reporters after visiting the Department of Civil Aviation (DCA) Air Traffic Control Centre here today.

 

He was accompanying Defence Minister and Acting Transport Minister Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Tun Hussein. 

 

Abdul Aziz said to detect objects on the seabed, it was usually done by fully equipped vessel sonar system, which is more capable in detecting sea surface level objects like submarine rescue vessels, hydrographic vessels and mine detectors.

 

He said such vessels had been deployed to the operation areas, including MV Mega Bakti, KD Perantau, KD Mahameru of Royal Malaysian Navy and MV Swift Rescue from Singapore's navy ."

 

ETA:

India joins SAR mission

"NEW DELHI: Ships of the Indian Navy that are on patrol in the Straits of Malacca are participating in the search and rescue (SAR) operations for the Malaysia Airlines (MAS) MH370 which went missing last Saturday.

The Indian Navy's satellite Rukmini or GSAT-7 has also been activated to pick up any clue that may lead investigators to the missing aircraft, Indian Media reported."

 

[MariannNOVA]

 

Malaysia has many domestic airports. Penang Airport is probably the nearest to the last known location and the runways there can support a Boeing landing. Langkawi airport is also near the last known location.

The Straits of Melaka is well patrolled, hopefully the MY navy or Indonesia navy "see something" if the plane lands in the Straits.

Indonesia has experience with airplane crash SAR, SilkAir nosedive and crashed in Palembang, Sumatra, Indonesia in 1997.

 

ETA:

This article might interest you, posted in New Straits Times today "Aviation expert suggest 6 reasons for disappearance"

ETA:

On why submarines weren't deploy for the SAR and that the Navy sonar systems are being utilized for the SAR.

"He said this was because the submarines, which are installed only with sonar detector systems, were incapable of performing the task of detecting static objects on the seabed.

 

"The sonar systems installed on the navy's submarines are unable to detect or track any static objects at sea surface level, but it can only detect moving objects or those emitting sounds," he told reporters after visiting the Department of Civil Aviation (DCA) Air Traffic Control Centre here today.

 

He was accompanying Defence Minister and Acting Transport Minister Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Tun Hussein.

 

Abdul Aziz said to detect objects on the seabed, it was usually done by fully equipped vessel sonar system, which is more capable in detecting sea surface level objects like submarine rescue vessels, hydrographic vessels and mine detectors.

 

He said such vessels had been deployed to the operation areas, including MV Mega Bakti, KD Perantau, KD Mahameru of Royal Malaysian Navy and MV Swift Rescue from Singapore's navy ."

Thank you. A wealth of information.

[Colleen]

Some of the theories are a little bizarre. The main reason they haven't found the plane is because the ocean is huge. Our sattelites are generally programmed to look out over land, not the 3/4 of the planet that is water. We can't possibly have enough sattelites in space to cover every square inch of the planet in real time. We definitely don't have sattelites that are pointed at nothing but water 99% of the time.

 

Yep.  But we're used to instant gratification ~ and admittedly, it is rather spooky that an object of such magnitude can seemingly disappear.

 

It took two years to find the Air France flight that crashed after flying out of Rio:

 

 

Slight clarification re the Air France incident.  It took two years to find the black boxes; the initial wreckage was located in a matter of days.

[jennynd]

Based on the plane actually fly off course for 500 miles. I start to think the plane still intact and people still alive.

[Canadianmumof5]

Based on the plane actually fly off course for 500 miles. I start to think the plane still intact and people still alive.

I am thinking this too. Maybe just wishful thinking but until there is hard evidence, i'd like to be optimistic about this.

 

Praying for all those affected.

[Mrs Mungo]

Slight clarification re the Air France incident.  It took two years to find the black boxes; the initial wreckage was located in a matter of days.

So sorry, I meant to say to find the black box, but got distracted while typing my post. It took about 5 days for them to start recovering wreckage. They never recovered the whole plane or all of the bodies. I see no reason to believe that the plane in this case will be recovered or that the passengers survived. It's pretty hard to hide a big plane, not every *long* runway can stand up to the weight of a large plane.

[Berta]

>>Putting on my tinfoil hat<<

 

I believe they mentioned on day 2 that the plane had been tracked on radar turning around right before they lost sight of it. This is why I still believe it was hijacked and could possibly have landed somewhere discrete. If you look at what countries are within the fuel limit for that aircraft, you run into Iran, Pakistan, Yemen and other terrorist havens. It is not out of the realm of possibility for someone to add a nuke to the plane, and use it for a future terrorist attack.

Makes sense. Thanks.

 

Though if my cell is turned off I get the message that customer is not in reach, or something like that, without a typical ring.

 

If turn off my cell phone, calling it goes straight to voice mail.  If I pull out the battery when it was on, it rings a bunch of times before going to voice mail.

[jennynd]

>>Putting on my tinfoil hat<<

 

I believe they mentioned on day 2 that the plane had been tracked on radar turning around right before they lost sight of it. This is why I still believe it was hijacked and could possibly have landed somewhere discrete. If you look at what countries are within the fuel limit for that aircraft, you run into Iran, Pakistan, Yemen and other terrorist havens. It is not out of the realm of possibility for someone to add a nuke to the plane, and use it for a future terrorist attack.

 

But if it hijack, shouldn't someone already claim it? It is already 3 days,not a peep... This whole think just plain weird.

[Pawz4me]

If turn off my cell phone, calling it goes straight to voice mail.  If I pull out the battery when it was on, it rings a bunch of times before going to voice mail.

 

I read a techie explanation of cell phone rings.  The bottom line is that there are two "sets" of rings -- one that the person who initiates the call hears, and one the person hears when his/hear phone receives the call signal.  They are NOT the same rings heard (almost) simultaneously.  So let's say Tom calls Jane.  Tom hears ringing.  That is his phone saying to him "I'm working away here, trying to locate Jane's phone for you, so stay on the line."  It's sort of the equivalent of hearing background music when you're put on hold, so that you know the connection is still there.  But Jane's phone doesn't ring until Tom's phone "finds" it.  So in this case (according to the expert) the victims' families are hearing ringing because their phones are trying to locate the phones of their loved ones.  It doesn't mean the loved ones' phones are doing any ringing at all.

[Berta]

But if it hijack, shouldn't someone already claim it? It is already 3 days,not a peep... This whole think just plain weird.

 

Not if they are planning on using the plane in an attack in the near future.

[jennynd]

Not if they are planning on using the plane in an attack in the near future.

I just read ur other post.. Nuke.. I don't want to think that..

 

But speak of terrorist, Taiwan' airline (china airline) received a call 4 days before this and the guy started out speaking in French then change to Chinese and said there will be a attack in China territory with planes. The guy mistake the " China airline" with Air China.. I assume.

[unsinkable]

I read a techie explanation of cell phone rings. The bottom line is that there are two "sets" of rings -- one that the person who initiates the call hears, and one the person hears when his/hear phone receives the call signal. They are NOT the same rings heard (almost) simultaneously. So let's say Tom calls Jane. Tom hears ringing. That is his phone saying to him "I'm working away here, trying to locate Jane's phone for you, so stay on the line." It's sort of the equivalent of hearing background music when you're put on hold, so that you know the connection is still there. But Jane's phone doesn't ring until Tom's phone "finds" it. So in this case (according to the expert) the victims' families are hearing ringing because their phones are trying to locate the phones of their loved ones. It doesn't mean the loved ones' phones are doing any ringing at all.

I just read a thread about this on Reddit!

[busymama7]

Have they identified the five passengers who had luggage on the plan and then didn't board? I want to know what their story is. I mean one person could be any number of things but five?!?

 

Sorry if I missed it. I have read this whole thread and many news stories.

[Cinder]

I read a techie explanation of cell phone rings.  The bottom line is that there are two "sets" of rings -- one that the person who initiates the call hears, and one the person hears when his/hear phone receives the call signal.  They are NOT the same rings heard (almost) simultaneously.  So let's say Tom calls Jane.  Tom hears ringing.  That is his phone saying to him "I'm working away here, trying to locate Jane's phone for you, so stay on the line."  It's sort of the equivalent of hearing background music when you're put on hold, so that you know the connection is still there.  But Jane's phone doesn't ring until Tom's phone "finds" it.  So in this case (according to the expert) the victims' families are hearing ringing because their phones are trying to locate the phones of their loved ones.  It doesn't mean the loved ones' phones are doing any ringing at all.

 

I didn't know this. Interesting. Thanks!

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Not if they are planning on using the plane in an attack in the near future.

 

That would be an incredibly inefficient way to transport a nuke, and relatively easy to detect.  Bringing one in via ship would be much easier.

[Ameena]

Not if they are planning on using the plane in an attack in the near future.

This is what I worry about. It would be so easy to land this plan elsewhere, load it with a nuke & use to to attack another country. Given the state of things in the world today, I'm amazed none of the news media has mentioned this as a possibility.

 

I know there are some folks here who know far more than I about planes, etc. Is there a marker specific to a plane that can be seen on radar & does not change from flight to flight? Basically what I'm asking is - if this plan showed up on radar somewhere in the world NOT using the call sign / marker for the flight that was hyjacked - is there ANY way for air traffic control to figure out it's the hyjacked plane? Other than physically looking at the plane {and hoping they weren't bright enough to give it a quick paint job}? I know some folks mentioned the transponders were shut off - could those be turned back on with a different ID? And has anyone checked for that possibility?

[unsinkable]

I hate to appear to be adding to a "24" plot but I just read that the captain had his own flight simulator.

[Arcadia]

Have they identified the five passengers who had luggage on the plan and then didn't board? I want to know what their story is. I mean one person could be any number of things but five?!?

 

 

Below is the statement from MAS regarding the 5 passengers mystery (link)

 

"Tuesday, March 11, 05:29 PM MYT +0800 Malaysia Airlines MH370 Flight Incident - 12th Media Statement

 

This statement is in reference to the many queries on the alleged five (5) passengers who checked-in but did not board MH370 on 8 March 2014 from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing despite having valid tickets to travel.

 

Malaysia Airlines wishes to clarify that there were four (4) passengers who had valid booking to travel on flight MH370, 8 March 2014, but did not show up to check-in for the flight.

 

As such, the issue of off-loading unaccompanied baggage did not arise, as the said four passengers did not check in for the flight. Hence, the above claim is untrue. "

[Guest submarines]

I hate to appear to be adding to a "24" plot but I just read that the captain had his own flight simulator.

 

What does this mean? :001_huh:

[Amy in NH]

I hate to appear to be adding to a "24" plot but I just read that the captain had his own flight simulator.

 

 

That means that he practiced flying different planes at home?

 

Lots of people have flight simulators.  A friends father had a bunch of flight simulator cockpits in his basement because he was a flying enthusiast, even though he never had a pilot's license.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

This is what I worry about. It would be so easy to land this plan elsewhere, load it with a nuke & use to to attack another country. Given the state of things in the world today, I'm amazed none of the news media has mentioned this as a possibility.

 

I know there are some folks here who know far more than I about planes, etc. Is there a marker specific to a plane that can be seen on radar & does not change from flight to flight? Basically what I'm asking is - if this plan showed up on radar somewhere in the world NOT using the call sign / marker for the flight that was hyjacked - is there ANY way for air traffic control to figure out it's the hyjacked plane? Other than physically looking at the plane {and hoping they weren't bright enough to give it a quick paint job}? I know some folks mentioned the transponders were shut off - could those be turned back on with a different ID? And has anyone checked for that possibility?

 

A nuke heavy enough to need to be transported by a 777 would be a weight/size that would make more sense to be transported via a cargo plane.  Hijacking (or buying) a cargo plane would much simpler and would be easier to file a flight plan into a nation's airspace.  A 777 that shows up on radar with no flight number/flight plan would raise immediate concern. A 777 also requires a very long runway and the likelihood of one of that size being hidden is unlikely.

 

[aggieamy]

A nuke heavy enough to need to be transported by a 777 would be a weight/size that would make more sense to be transported via a cargo plane.  Hijacking (or buying) a cargo plane would much simpler and would be easier to file a flight plan into a nation's airspace.  A 777 that shows up on radar with no flight number/flight plan would raise immediate concern. A 777 also requires a very long runway and the likelihood of one of that size being hidden is unlikely.

 

 

That's what I was thinking.  You could BUY a plane a lot easier than you could steal one.  

[busymama7]

 

Below is the statement from MAS regarding the 5 passengers mystery (link)

 

"Tuesday, March 11, 05:29 PM MYT +0800 Malaysia Airlines MH370 Flight Incident - 12th Media Statement

 

 

This statement is in reference to the many queries on the alleged five (5) passengers who checked-in but did not board MH370 on 8 March 2014 from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing despite having valid tickets to travel.

 

Malaysia Airlines wishes to clarify that there were four (4) passengers who had valid booking to travel on flight MH370, 8 March 2014, but did not show up to check-in for the flight.

 

As such, the issue of off-loading unaccompanied baggage did not arise, as the said four passengers did not check in for the flight. Hence, the above claim is untrue. "

Thanks :)

[mathnerd]

I just read ur other post.. Nuke.. I don't want to think that..

 

But speak of terrorist, Taiwan' airline (china airline) received a call 4 days before this and the guy started out speaking in French then change to Chinese and said there will be a attack in China territory with planes. The guy mistake the " China airline" with Air China.. I assume.

My pet theory is that the plane got hijacked to Indonesia which harbors a lot of anti-western terrorist groups in the dark. It refueled there (because it had only a few hours worth of fuel left) and took off in the night, flew under the radar at 29000 ft as it did while crossing Malaysia and went on to one of the pro-terrorist countries (you can substitute your own choice of terrorist harboring country here - Iran, N Korea etc). My followup pet theory is that the US has many spy satellites pointing to these countries and it has a pretty good idea of what exactly happened. It may have its own reasons for keeping quiet and not getting involved. 

 

Why the plane was hijacked is something I am unable to speculate about. And I can only pray that the people onboard are alive.

 

Disclaimer: I came up with this theory because I cannot imagine any other possibility due to the lack of a wreckage.

 

ETA: There is speculation now that something is being covered up:

This article talks about the hijack theory: http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/03/12/Missing-plane-last-words/

Excerpt: "The exchange boosted theories among the anxious families that there are ongoing secret negotiations with terrorists who had hijacked the plane. Adding to this was the official's earlier statement that Malaysia hopes that the passengers are alive."

[Cammie]

I agree with a cover-up.  My current theory is that the Malaysian military is covering up something that they did.  They kept secret the fact that the plan was tracked to the WEST of Malaysia while all rescue operations were occurring to the EAST of Malaysia.  Now they say they had tracked the plan turning and coming back over the country.  I have a bad feeling they are covering up a mistake made in how they dealt with the plane that was not identifying itself.  I hope I am wrong.

[Mrs Mungo]

I would argue haze and confusion of first responders. The civilian agency last tracked the plane in east Malaysia. The military went through their records (which takes time because it isn't what they are normally doing) and discovered they had last (and incidentally) tracked the plane in west Malaysia. I don't think there is anyway that any country could keep that kind of secret. Anxious families (most of whom are Chinese and don't really understand what governments honestly can or can't do) are holding out false hopes because they desperately want it to be true.

[Arcadia]

This information has not been verified. Posted in New Straits Times an hour ago.  There is a photo in the link if anyone is interested.

 

"12 March 2014| last updated at 02:34PM

 

PORT DICKSON: A group of fishermen found a life raft bearing the word “Boarding†10 nautical miles from Port Dickson town at 12pm yesterday.

 

One of the fishermen, Azman Mohamad, 40, said they found the badly damaged raft floating and immediately notified the Kuala Linggi Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency (MMEA) in Malacca for assistance to lift the raft as it was very heavy.

 

"We managed to tie it to our boat as we feared it would sink due to the damages," he said.

 

When the MMEA boat arrived, the fishermen then handed over the raft into their custody.

 

However, a Kuala Linggi MMEA spokesman said the raft sunk into the sea while they were trying to bring the raft onboard. "

[Cammie]

The Daily Mail has an interesting article (can't link to this forum no matter how hard I try!).  They claim a number of eyewitnesses along the North East coast of Malaysia have come forward with reports of low flying plane over the ocean in the middle of the night that night.

[Heather in Neverland]

ETA: There is speculation now that something is being covered up:

This article talks about the hijack theory: http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/03/12/Missing-plane-last-words/

Excerpt: "The exchange boosted theories among the anxious families that there are ongoing secret negotiations with terrorists who had hijacked the plane. Adding to this was the official's earlier statement that Malaysia hopes that the passengers are alive."

 

I don't know whether or not there is a criminal cover up but I am willing to bet they are covering their botched handling of the whole affair from the immigration/passport issues up until now. 

 

You have to understand the culture of "shame/saving face" to get it. They almost NEVER admit when they are wrong. It is too much cause for shame. This affects every part of their lives...even little things. You can ask them for directions somewhere and rather than tell you they don't know where the place is, they will make up directions. If you are in a store and ask them a question about a product they will tell you they are out of stock rather than admit they don't know the answer to your question.

 

When I first arrived here I was stunned by the amount of flat-out lying that occurs about everything. But culturally for them it is acceptable to lie rather than to tell an unpleasant truth. They hate any kind of confrontation. 

 

Combine a culture of saving face with a culture of "rank and title means everything." So you have authorities who not only feel you do not have the right to question them but who also will not admit when they are wrong or give you an honest but unpleasant answer (especially if it implicates them in any way).

 

Now combine that with a country that highly favors their Malay/Muslim population including having a set of strict bumiputra laws (think affirmative action on steroids) and will do anything to make sure nothing makes Muslims look bad (and who do we tend to automatically blame when there is a terrorist attack?). 

 

Now combine THAT with a country where rules and laws in general are basically just suggestions...no police presence anywhere, corruption, bribes, etc., and you have Malaysia.

 

So, did Malaysia do something criminal they are trying to cover up? I doubt it. To be perfectly honest, they are not technologically advanced enough to pull that off. We don't even have decent internet here!

 

But has Malaysia botched several aspects of this situation? Probably. Letting stolen passports through immigration, pilots hanging out with women and smoking in the cockpit on previous flights, waffling on time and radar data, and on and on... until they can spin this so that nothing reflects poorly on them, the officials will continue giving vague answers. It's just how they do things here.

[Arcadia]

The Daily Mail has an interesting article (can't link to this forum no matter how hard I try!).  They claim a number of eyewitnesses along the North East coast of Malaysia have come forward with reports of low flying plane over the ocean in the middle of the night that night.

 

Probably something similar to this link

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/03/11/Kelantan-duo-report-seeing-lights-falling-at-high-speed/

 

ETA:

There is also this one day old news about a loud sound heard by locals in Marang and reported to their local police.

http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-color-red-missing-mh370-font-loud-noise-reported-believed-linked-to-missing-plane-1.507926

 

[flyingiguana]

Also, an oil rig worker says he saw something burning in the sky:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26503141

There's a map of his location.

 

It'll be interesting to see which of these reports turn out to be related.

[DawnM]

That is in yet a 3rd location!  

 

I thought they knew for sure the plane had turned around, and this location is further East, not West.

 

HUH.  

 

Dawn

 

 

Also, an oil rig worker says he saw something burning in the sky:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26503141
There's a map of his location.

It'll be interesting to see which of these reports turn out to be related.

 

[quark]

I don't know whether or not there is a criminal cover up but I am willing to bet they are covering their botched handling of the whole affair from the immigration/passport issues up until now. 

 

You have to understand the culture of "shame/saving face" to get it. They almost NEVER admit when they are wrong. It is too much cause for shame. This affects every part of their lives...even little things. You can ask them for directions somewhere and rather than tell you they don't know where the place is, they will make up directions. If you are in a store and ask them a question about a product they will tell you they are out of stock rather than admit they don't know the answer to your question.

 

When I first arrived here I was stunned by the amount of flat-out lying that occurs about everything.

 

Are you referring to the Malaysian investigators or did you just insult all Malaysians with a broad brush? You do mention some relevant points that I hate to say I have to agree with from my own experience but from the above, it seems like you feel you have a right to insult every Malaysian from your limited experience with a only a fraction of the community, or from what you read in news reports.

[FaithManor]

Are you referring to the Malaysian investigators or did you just insult all Malaysians with a broad brush? You do mention some relevant points that I hate to say I have to agree with from my own experience but from the above, it seems like you feel you have a right to insult every Malaysian from your limited experience with a only a fraction of the community, or from what you read in news reports.

Heather lives in Malaysia and has for several years. She is the principal of an elementary school and her husband teaches in the high school. She has been there a long time and has adopted a child from the country thus working intimately within the culture and the system. She does not have limited experience.

[quark]

Heather lives in Malaysia and has for several years. She is the principal of an elementary school and her husband teaches in the high school. She has been there a long time and has adopted a child from the country thus working intimately within the culture and the system. She does not have limited experience.

 

nm

[MariannNOVA]

Are you referring to the Malaysian investigators or did you just insult all Malaysians with a broad brush? You do mention some relevant points that I hate to say I have to agree with from my own experience but from the above, it seems like you feel you have a right to insult every Malaysian from your limited experience with a only a fraction of the community, or from what you read in news reports.

I understood everything that Heather wrote to be 'observation' and I would not characterize any of her words as insults.

 

In fact, This http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-03-12/why-malaysia-will-say-almost-nothing-about-the-missing-flight would only be better if the writer had some of heather's observations.

 

Heather's observations would go a long way in helping others understand why things are being done in what westerners consider to be a totally haphazard fashion.

 

Finally, I would hardly characterize her experience as limited.

[quark]

FWIW, I am not trying to be confrontational. I am going to bow out. I wanted to speak up because it felt like the right thing to do vs. lurking and keeping quiet. This is not about a country's people as a whole wanting to save face or lie. A plane disappeared. I have not been able to overcome my sadness over the tragedy and I live 1000s of miles away. Do you honestly think all Malaysians are liars? That's the impression her choice of words give.  I don't want to sully the memory of people who may have died. People insulting Malaysians, the pilots, the authorities, forget that MAS has had a safe track record for many, many years. Anyone who feels it is justified can go back to their Malaysia-bashing if they like.

[Scrub Jay]

FWIW, I am not trying to be confrontational. I am going to bow out. I wanted to speak up because it felt like the right thing to do vs. lurking and keeping quiet. This is not about a country's people as a whole wanting to save face or lie. A plane disappeared. I have not been able to overcome my sadness over the tragedy and I live 1000s of miles away. Do you honestly think all Malaysians are liars? That's the impression her choice of words give.  I don't want to sully the memory of people who may have died. People insulting Malaysians, the pilots, the authorities, forget that MAS has had a safe track record for many, many years. Anyone who feels it is justified can go back to their Malaysia-bashing if they like.

 

You may feel that's the impression her words gave but I did not read them that way at all.  I do think it is great that you spoke up when you felt there was an injustice being said about a group of people but I also think it is important to say that not everyone is reading it the same way as you have been. 

 

[flyingiguana]

Usually in the 1st days of an investigation, things look "covered up".  Govts don't tell all they suspect, because they haven't confirmed any facts and they certainly don't want to accuse without support.

 

I've been thinking things looked pretty fishy as well, until I recently heard that low flying planes aren't picked up by radar.  Which means it could be just about anywhere if it flew low for awhile.

 

And the earth is a big place to search.

 

I am glad, though, that Heather gave us her observations.

 

Here's also an article on unsolved plane mysteries: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26531675

A number were not found until years later.  And the first of the Air France 447 wreckage wasn't spotted until 5 days after the crash.  So 4-5 doesn't seem all that unusual.  In the present case, as well, it's an even bigger search area.

 

Also interesting is the different conclusions about cause that US and Egyptian investigators came to concerning the 1999 EgyptAir crash.

[MariannNOVA]

FWIW, I am not trying to be confrontational. I am going to bow out. I wanted to speak up because it felt like the right thing to do vs. lurking and keeping quiet. This is not about a country's people as a whole wanting to save face or lie. A plane disappeared. I have not been able to overcome my sadness over the tragedy and I live 1000s of miles away. Do you honestly think all Malaysians are liars? That's the impression her choice of words give. I don't want to sully the memory of people who may have died. People insulting Malaysians, the pilots, the authorities, forget that MAS has had a safe track record for many, many years. Anyone who feels it is justified can go back to their Malaysia-bashing if they like.

I did not get the perception that anyone was being bashed in Heather's post. I did not understand her to say that the anomalies surrounding this tragic event are about 'saving face' or wanting to lie. And I didn't understand any of heather's post to say that 'all Malaysians are liars.' I am quoting you there just to be clear. In fact, from the first moment Heather arrived in Malaysia, she has said repeatedly that the People she has met in Malaysia (no doubt many of whom are Malaysians) have treated her and her family with kindness that seems to know no limit. She has spoken

personally to me and my family about how wonderful the people are in Malaysia and what a wonderful experience this has been for her family.

 

It is unfortunate that your impression of her words is hurtful to you. I wrote that I thought her words were 'observations' and that I in no way would take them as an insult.

 

There are many words used in your post above that in no way can be attributed to heather.....she did not say or allude to the things you wrote. Those things are indeed hurtful and clearly false......but they were not written by heather or anyone else here. In fact, the pages of this thread are filled with words of praise for the safety record of MAL, and in the first days of the investigation, the accolades of the US and other countries who were arriving to help.

 

It is sad that you have misconstrued things in this way.

[QueenCat]

Are you referring to the Malaysian investigators or did you just insult all Malaysians with a broad brush? You do mention some relevant points that I hate to say I have to agree with from my own experience but from the above, it seems like you feel you have a right to insult every Malaysian from your limited experience with a only a fraction of the community, or from what you read in news reports.

 

Heather has lived there for years (and still does), and loves the people there. I'm pretty sure she knows what she's talking about. She is not the "insulting" kind of person.

[Incognito]

I took the comment about honesty in the same way I take any generalization about a culture - it is a generalization for a reason, but that doesn't make it universally applicable.

 

I believe a lot of Asia has similar face-saving techniques, and from a Western perspective it is hard to understand until you have experienced it.  I know my experience of it in India was very frustrating and considering that cultural attitude does help with framing the things that are said by officials.

[Heather in Neverland]

Are you referring to the Malaysian investigators or did you just insult all Malaysians with a broad brush? You do mention some relevant points that I hate to say I have to agree with from my own experience but from the above, it seems like you feel you have a right to insult every Malaysian from your limited experience with a only a fraction of the community, or from what you read in news reports.

Have you lived in Malaysia? Do you know anything about it? Because I do. And I learned this from them. When I asked questions it was explained to me this way. It is part of our cross-cultural training that the Malaysians themselves conduct. They will tell you themselves that it is true. And i have experienced it every day for nearly five years. I think I know a bit more about it than you do so unless you want to come live here and experience it for yourself, you'll just have to trust me.

[Heather in Neverland]

Yes I do love the people here. They are not without their faults just as Americans are not without faults. Americans are demanding... We want answers NOW. But we also value transparency and see ourselves as deserving information from our leaders and rightly so.

 

Malaysians are fiercely loyal to their country and culture. They take great pride in it. I love that about them. But it also makes them very reluctant to admit to faults in their system.

 

When people are asking why they can't get a straight answer out of Malaysian officials and instead get "now is not the time to discuss it" they are frustrated. I am frustrated. That is the American in me speaking. My post was an attempt to make others who think like I do understand why things are happening the way they are.

 

Doesn't make it less frustrating necessarily but inside information hopefully leads to better comprehension and even understanding.

[Arcadia]

FWIW, I am not trying to be confrontational. I am going to bow out. I wanted to speak up because it felt like the right thing to do vs. lurking and keeping quiet. This is not about a country's people as a whole wanting to save face or lie. A plane disappeared. I have not been able to overcome my sadness over the tragedy and I live 1000s of miles away. Do you honestly think all Malaysians are liars? That's the impression her choice of words give.

*hugs*

We may be sad for different reasons. I have cousins married to malaysians. One of my paternal uncle's wife is malaysian.

 

However I interpret Heather's post as nothing more than describing the traditional culture of face saving which can been seen anywhere in the world. It may not be a good choice of words but I didn't see it as bashing all Malaysians. Heather is in Penang. There is still the lovely East Malaysia states and Penang people are as a whole not into face saving (maybe the authorities but that's an international norm).

Maybe that's where being multilingual comes in useful. Being able to swear in the local languages does break the "formal" communications barrier which looks like face saving on the outside. I get a lot of "I dont know" in cantonese or hokkien in Penang when I was asking directions :)

 

ETA:

On a lighter note. I miss the Sarawak black pepper sauce and the chinese style pickled nutmegs.

 

ETA:

Was listening to CNN Breaking news on my kindle.  The guy interviewed sounded egoistic saying that MAS don't know what they are doing and should hand over the whole SAR job to US :cursing:

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I understood everything that Heather wrote to be 'observation' and I would not characterize any of her words as insults.

 

In fact, This http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-03-12/why-malaysia-will-say-almost-nothing-about-the-missing-flight would only be better if the writer had some of heather's observations.

 

Heather's observations would go a long way in helping others understand why things are being done in what westerners consider to be a totally haphazard fashion.

 

Finally, I would hardly characterize her experience as limited.

Living in a country as an outsider for a few years is still a limited experience, especially when someone has difficulty getting past their own cultural biases.

[Stacia]

In case anyone wants to help search some of the satellite images, go to tomnod.com

 

Ds & I have been looking at maps on there for a bit this morning. It has a simple tagging system if you happen to see anything that might be debris, etc....

[DawnM]

She mentioned on another thread that she is from Asia and immigrated to the USA.  I don't know if she is from Malaysia or not but my guess is that she took offense based on being Asian and growing up in an Asian country.

 

I don't think anyone is being offensive, or at least no one is trying to be offensive.  

 

This is all a touchy topic.

 

 

Have you lived in Malaysia? Do you know anything about it? Because I do. And I learned this from them. When I asked questions it was explained to me this way. It is part of our cross-cultural training that the Malaysians themselves conduct. They will tell you themselves that it is true. And i have experienced it every day for nearly five years. I think I know a bit more about it than you do so unless you want to come live here and experience it for yourself, you'll just have to trust me.

 

[myfunnybunch]

You may feel that's the impression her words gave but I did not read them that way at all.  I do think it is great that you spoke up when you felt there was an injustice being said about a group of people but I also think it is important to say that not everyone is reading it the same way as you have been. 

 

 

I agree. I think there is a difference between pointing out something that is culturally acceptable and practiced (and therefore viewed quite differently through the lens of that culture) and insulting the people of that culture. I agree that it is a fine line sometimes, but there is a difference between saying "All Malaysians are liars," and (essentially) "Lying to save face is acceptable and expected in this culture."

 

We've hosted students from many Asian cultures, and this is a cultural difference we've discussed with them often. (FWIW, through their cultural lens, Americans can be blunt and rude, too direct.)

 

Understanding the cultural differences affects our interpretation of how Malaysian officials are communicating.

 

Cat