Do people really not know the difference between sharing a family tradition in a secular setting and inappropriate evangelism?

[Χά�ων]

It's similar up here. Maybe that's why I don't get the objection to scripture because it's not such a charged issue here.

Wow.

 

Ever heard of the movie Jesus Camp? That pretty much is what it is like here.

[SKL]

I still can't fathom how people expect a 6yo child to be responsible for all these religious sensitivities.  Most kids that age have at best a general sense that people have different beliefs.  They don't understand that some people can't agree to disagree, or that the information they have been taught is going to pi$$ some people off.  This isn't a matter of Americans raising their kids to be a$$holes, it's a matter of kids being innocent.  Kids of all backgrounds manage to play so well together, until adults come along and mess it up.

[SKL]

Wow.

 

Ever heard of the movie Jesus Camp? That pretty much is what it is like here.

 

When you say "here," I assume you mean in your conservative Bible-Belt neck of the woods, not everywhere in the USA.  Just clarifying for those outside the US who may not realize how diverse the country is.

[Elfknitter.#]

When you say "here," I assume you mean in your conservative Bible-Belt neck of the woods, not everywhere in the USA. Just clarifying for those outside the US who may not realize how diverse the country is.

A bit snarky there.

[mom2samlibby]

There are many things about American culture I admire. Your religiosity, however, and aggressive emphasis on individual rights comes across as rather hostile to those who value freedom from religion, and the responsibilities of individuals to consider their effect on the community.

I think you are the only one seeing this as aggressive and hostile. I'm seeing a 6 year old doing her assignment. The teacher told them to bring something from home that showed their Christmas/Holiday tradition. She chose their star to bring from home and told why she chose it.

[msjones]

I never had a class where every student celebrated Christmas.  

 

That's part of why I find this story so bizarre.  I don't think I know a public school teacher who would assign such a narrow topic.  We've got a huge mix of religions around here -- it'd be silly to assign a 'Christmas traditions' presentation.

 

 

[SKL]

A bit snarky there.

No snark intended at all.  When someone from one country tells someone in another country something about "here," it is often assumed that "here" means the whole country.  And we were up to then talking about the whole country.  And I didn't want non-US people thinking the whole US is some sort of Jesus Camp, because it isn't.

[Word Nerd]

And I didn't want non-US people thinking the whole US is some sort of Jesus Camp, because it isn't.

 

Nor is the Bible Belt, for that matter.

[Anne in CA]

This has been a fun discussion for me to follow. I am surprised how many people thought it was fine to single out one six year old girl and stop her presentation and how many people thought such a simple thing was proselytizing. In my mind proselytizing is a concentrated effort to "save" someone, putting them on the spot to change their religious affiliation. I am very enlightened to see that some people view simple scripture recitation as proselytizing. I never had looked at it that way in my life. I don't agree with that point of view, but I am glad to know that some people hold it because it will alter my behavior in the future.

 

I am sad that Christians have sometimes been so unloving that people do not view them as such, but sadly I know why some people hold that view. I know so many amazing, loving, generous, smart Christians that I find it sad that so many people don't seem to know any and are afraid that they will be ambushed by unloving scripture pelting. I knew this before this thread though.

 

I will be sending one of my children to public school for the first time in nine years and I will expect her to be herself, even it it makes other people unhappy. But I will expect her behavior to be loving, supportive and fair to others. I will expect her to listen to other people's religious or worse, political, beliefs, and try to hear what they are actually saying, not what she suspects they are saying. If she can do it, I will be a successful parent. 

[Farrar]

There are many things about American culture I admire. Your religiosity, however, and aggressive emphasis on individual rights comes across as rather hostile to those who value freedom from religion, and the responsibilities of individuals to consider their effect on the community.

 

Yes, I think this is a key difference.  I don't really value freedom from religion, except in the sense of separation of church and state and the freedom from religion having any power I don't choose to give it.  In other words, in a strictly political sense.  But expressions of religion - or even of anti-religion - don't bother me and I think don't bother many Americans (okay, well, the expression of atheism does for some, but not so much for me).  In fact, I sort of value them, even when I disagree.  And I think, from what I know of other Western cultures, that must be a really American way to look at it.

[marbel]

 

I know no one said anything about me. I was merely sharing a different perspective with Marbel. If her questions were rhetorical, she can ignore me.

 

<snip>

 

 

Sort of rhetorical, sort of not. :001_smile:

 

I suppose it's true that US culture is more familiar to outside this country than, say Australian culture is here.  Still, I've met plenty of people who come here with weird ideas of what American culture is really like.  You know, the stereotype that everyone carries a gun and there are daily shootouts on Main Street of every town (I am not exaggerating; I have been told that), or that all women are blonde and wear bikinis everywhere they go (this from a Beach Boys fan from, of all places, Sweden).  

 

Rosie, I bet you probably do have a good understanding but you don't seem to presume to know it all.  I am not sure if this will come across the way I intend but you have a humility and sense of humor about you; certainly you don't seem like a pompous git.  :D  

 

[SKL]

C'mon SKL. Those outside of the US aren't idiots. Some of us have friends and family there. We understand it's a diverse place.

 

Well when someone in Australia (perhaps you) said "here" earlier, the reader assumed that "here" meant "on this forum," so I am sure it means different things to different intelligent people.

 

See, this whole business of taking offense when no offense was intended at all.

[Χά�ων]

When you say "here," I assume you mean in your conservative Bible-Belt neck of the woods, not everywhere in the USA.  Just clarifying for those outside the US who may not realize how diverse the country is.

 

What point does saying this serve? Aside from to be snarky and attempt to derail this thread and get the thread locked? Why do you post something that makes the assumption that those outside the USA cannot read the entire thread or even just a few posts previous? Seriously. I NEVER said or even hinted that this was true throughout all of the USA.

 

My first post where I say it is MY experience where I live

 

My 2 cents: I live in rural bible belt Midwest. I have been screamed at for lack of Christian faith. My son has had deal with numerous children try to proselytize him since he was 6. There are many churches that teach young children that they are personally reasonable for saving their friends and that they will be a failure if they do not spread the word at any and all opportunities. I do minimal activities with the local homeschool group because my son is not left alone. This is my reality and my response is based on this.

 

I would prefer the child to NOT quote scripture. If my son had to sit through it I would expect him to be polite but I would also encourage him to complain if he was offended. In a classroom setting he has NO CHOICE in listening to a bible verse. Now, I do think it should be allowed to be included in a written report, but not in an oral presentation, out of respect for those of a different belief system in the class.

 

 

Now I am going back to  :lurk5:

 

 

My second post where I say that something is far from MY reality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SKL]

Nor is the Bible Belt, for that matter.

 

I agree with you.  I don't deny it is the experience of some, though.

[Scarlett]

Honest question here. I am not judging, just curious. I am asking you to clarify. Feel free to PM me if you would rather. :)

Would you be offended if a child Satanist was allowed to quote something that tells your child they are horrid for not being Satanist? As an adult, I am mature enough to see the difference but I am not sure I would want my 6 year old to listen to it.

 

 

Now I am back to :lurk5:

 

Offended? Hmm..it might give me pause. I would not however complain to the school, hire an attorney or sue anyone. I would reiterate my own beliefs to my child and let it go. I have much practice with this having been raised up in a traditional Bible Belt area of the south while being a member of a very non mainstream faith.

[SKL]

 

What point does saying this serve? Aside from to be snarky and attempt to derail this thread and get the thread locked? Why do you post something that makes the assumption that those outside the USA cannot read the entire thread or even just a few posts previous? Seriously. I NEVER said or even hinted that this was true throughout all of the USA.

 

My first post where I say it is MY experience where I live

 

 

 

My second post where I say that something is far from MY reality.

 

Seriously, for the third time, I meant no ill will, and I was following you and I understood what you meant by "here."  But thanks for reminding me once again why I have you on ignore.

 

[SKL]

Bye folks, this thread is not fun any more and I have work to do.

[Χά�ων]

Offended? Hmm..it might give me pause. I would not however complain to the school, hire an attorney or sue anyone. I would reiterate my own beliefs to my child and let it go. I have much practice with this having been raised up in a traditional Bible Belt area of the south while being a member of a very non mainstream faith.

Thank you for taking the time to answer me, I appreciate it.

[Scarlett]

That's not what I meant. I mean if a Satanist child had been interrupted and not allowed to present, I don't think people would be all up in arms that her freedom of speech has been infringed upon.

Well I can't speak to that because I wouldn't have been all up in arms about either situation.

[albeto.]

So to satisfy some curiosity, what do you guys consider preaching?

 

I'll say that for me, preaching happens when one includes faith as fact. For example the little girl in this story explained how the Star of David signifies the story of the Three Wise Men going to see baby Jesus. This is fact without faith, as that is what the Star is. This can be corroborated in a number of places. It's part of general Christian lore. Identifying Jesus as "savior of the world," in my opinion moves the comment over the line into "preaching" territory because it adds a component of faith (Jesus is savior of the world) as fact. Not all preaching is extensive or eloquent, nor does it have to be sophisticated, imo anyway. 

 

If my child were in that class, I would not be upset. Kids say what's on their minds and the unexpected is one of the endearing things about children. Besides, she was probably thrilled to share something that is special to her, like all the kids in the class probably were.

 

However, in a discussion where details are picked apart, tugged, yanked, stomped on, and shoved through a sieve, it wouldn't surprise me if responses would be different than being there. After all, we're talking about big ideas, not watching a cute 6 year old girl share her happy family tradition.

 

 

[mommymilkies]

Eh. Me either. I'm good. Generally speaking, it is pretty hard to offend me though. I guess atheists shouldn't be offended because they don't believe it in any way, shape, or form. And religious folks from other traditions generally have their own path to salvation that they believe is the one and only path. Maybe agnostics are the most likely to be offended? Like in a fretful oh crap, what if it's true? kind of way. :lol: But I remain unoffended (and un-fretful). So, yeah, LOL, I still don't see why it would actually offend anyone. Like for real instead of in a righteous indignation kind of way. I am super weary of righteous indignation lately.

I was the Jewish kid in school who couldn't wear her Star of David to school (they made me take it off and my mom pick it up in the office). The one who was told it was my fault Jesus died (rather hilarious to me even back then-they obviously were stupid). But that was ok because we pledged to God and my friends wore crosses. Right? More than atheists or agnostics get upset by this. I have no problem with personal signs of devotion or faith. But for me, you cross that line when you give a speech to your class quoting from any scripture or telling people they are not saved. Because let's face it, that's what John 3:16 is. Idk about any of you, but I had one very death-phobic little kid a few years ago who probably would have had anxiety attacks for weeks by being told in class that he would perish for his non-belief or any of that. But that's just my biased take after my crappy ps experience not being of the status-quo religion.

[awisha.]

 

 

Seriously, for the third time, I meant no ill will, and I was following you and I understood what you meant by "here."  But thanks for reminding me once again why I have you on ignore.

 

If Queen Goddess of the Deep is on your ignore list, why oh WHY are you even responding to her?? In a snarky way no less.

[awisha.]

This thread reminds me of what happens if you disturb an ants nest.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Were you on that board, Joanne?  What was your username?  I was Dharma.  :)

 

I was banned. lol

 

I forgot Joanne was there.

[JenniferB]

And it was scripture about the death of Jesus, not his birth or the nativity.

Huh? "God so loved the world that he *gave* his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life."

[Carol in Cal.]

We had a little Reformation over that bit (among others) :lol:

 

Read your history again.  The Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament was not disputed by Luther or the Reformation.  That was a later innovation.  And Lutherans today, the descendants of the Reformation, still hold to the Real Presence.

[Slartibartfast]

Read your history again.  The Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament was not disputed by Luther or the Reformation.  That was a later innovation.  And Lutherans today, the descendants of the Reformation, still hold to the Real Presence.

 

Zwingli was a part of the reformation, was he not? The reformation had many leaders and many churches are a result of that. How was it a later innovation when Zwingli was alive at the same time? John Calvin was also active during the same time period.

 

http://www.theopedia.com/Communion

[JenniferB]

This just came up on my FB wall; seems appropriate here. "We must love them both, those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject, for both have labored in the search for truth, and both have helped us in finding it."

Thomas Aquinas

[Ripley]

My 2 cents: I live in rural bible belt Midwest. I have been screamed at for lack of Christian faith. My son has had deal with numerous children try to proselytize him since he was 6. There are many churches that teach young children that they are personally reasonable for saving their friends and that they will be a failure if they do not spread the word at any and all opportunities. I do minimal activities with the local homeschool group because my son is not left alone. This is my reality and my response is based on this.

 

I live nearby, in Texas. As Catholics, my kids have endured the same treatment your son has had to. And it's not just from children but also by (other) parents, co-op teachers, and even coaches. The year my son was set to make his First Communion (age 7), his co-op teacher would close class with a prayer - for the homeless, for this, for that, and for "Alex, that he may come to realize Jesus is not present in the Eucharist." I found out from the parent of another student. When I approached the teacher and principal, both held firm and made no apologies. They offered to pray for me. I secretly wonder if they get bonus heaven points or a pink car for converting Catholics because discovering that seems to amp up their efforts. LOL

 

I mean, I had to withdraw him and undo some damage but I chose to believe that they were coming from a place of feeling they had a duty to do what they did. I find it inappropriate and abusive (in terms of power) but such is the nature of the beast where I live. It's not the first or last time my child will encounter this, all I can do is walk him through the process and arm him better for (each) next time. And you know, it makes him stronger in his resolve - in our case, his Catholicism - and through exposure and defending he's settling quite comfortably into our faith. They're turning him away from their brand of belief, I don't really have to do much now but sit back and Monday morning quarterback each incident.

 

***

 

I expect six year olds of all stripes to parrot what they're taught at home - whether it's religion or politics or just believing correctly that the 49'ers are and always will be better than the Cowboys. To some extent that is the process of formation, and adults ought to make allowances for that - or, at minimum, to recognize it as such and as developmentally appropriate if yet socially so. Or politically-correct so. ;)

 

Here, the assumption is one is a (non-Catholic ;)) Christian, so there are prayers before baseball games and no activities on Wednesday nights or Sundays to allow for church attendance.  The first question people ask to get acquainted is: "Where do you go to church?" as if all people do. And it's not a genuine question, because your answer is a gauge for how high to turn up the proselytizing. (And if I can be honest, I didn't even learn that word until I moved here. It just wasn't an issue where I'm from, or any of the places I've lived outside of this regional bubble.)

 

Running into a six year old proselytizer makes me feel sad, not angry. I see "six" before I do "proselytizer" ... I can absolutely see a six year old making that report without parental help. I'd figure it's because her faith is intentionally taught at home and she's parroting a parental approach (attaching/memorizing scripture). My first assumption wouldn't be that the parents or teacher set her up.

[WishboneDawn]

C'mon SKL. Those outside of the US aren't idiots. Some of us have friends and family there. We understand it's a diverse place.

Honestly, she knows we're not idiots and she likely assumes many of us understand what you pointed out but it's fair of her to think there might be the odd non-American who doesn't.

[WishboneDawn]

I live nearby, in Texas. As Catholics, my kids have endured the same treatment your son has had to. And it's not just from children but also by (other) parents, co-op teachers, and even coaches. The year my son was set to make his First Communion (age 7), his co-op teacher would close class with a prayer - for the homeless, for this, for that, and for "Alex, that he may come to realize Jesus is not present in the Eucharist." I found out from the parent of another student. When I approached the teacher and principal, both held firm and made no apologies. They offered to pray for me. I secretly wonder if they get bonus heaven points or a pink car for converting Catholics because discovering that seems to amp up their efforts. LOL

 

I mean, I had to withdraw him and undo some damage but I chose to believe that they were coming from a place of feeling they had a duty to do what they did. I find it inappropriate and abusive (in terms of power) but such is the nature of the beast where I live. It's not the first or last time my child will encounter this, all I can do is walk him through the process and arm him better for (each) next time. And you know, it makes him stronger in his resolve - in our case, his Catholicism - and through exposure and defending he's settling quite comfortably into our faith. They're turning him away from their brand of belief, I don't really have to do much now but sit back and Monday morning quarterback each incident.

 

***

 

I expect six year olds of all stripes to parrot what they're taught at home - whether it's religion or politics or just believing correctly that the 49'ers are and always will be better than the Cowboys. To some extent that is the process of formation, and adults ought to make allowances for that - or, at minimum, to recognize it as such and as developmentally appropriate if yet socially so. Or politically-correct so. ;)

 

Here, the assumption is one is a (non-Catholic ;)) Christian, so there are prayers before baseball games and no activities on Wednesday nights or Sundays to allow for church attendance. The first question people ask to get acquainted is: "Where do you go to church?" as if all people do. And it's not a genuine question, because your answer is a gauge for how high to turn up the proselytizing. (And if I can be honest, I didn't even learn that word until I moved here. It just wasn't an issue where I'm from, or any of the places I've lived outside of this regional bubble.)

 

Running into a six year old proselytizer makes me feel sad, not angry. I see "six" before I do "proselytizer" ... I can absolutely see a six year old making that report without parental help. I'd figure it's because her faith is intentionally taught at home and she's parroting a parental approach (attaching/memorizing scripture). My first assumption wouldn't be that the parents or teacher set her up.

I think you and Albeto with her question have opened this up for me. I think the fact that she was six plays a big part in my reaction. If she had been 12? 15? Although her age would be irrelevant to whether or not she has the right to do what she did.

 

But...I'd likely have a lot more sympathy for the teacher if the child was older. What's cute and understandable at six can be disruptive and insulting at 12. Even then though, the ideal wouldn't be to shush the student but rather to open up the class for discussion.

[WishboneDawn]

So to satisfy some curiosity, what do you guys consider preaching?

 

I'll say that for me, preaching happens when one includes faith as fact. For example the little girl in this story explained how the Star of David signifies the story of the Three Wise Men going to see baby Jesus. This is fact without faith, as that is what the Star is. This can be corroborated in a number of places. It's part of general Christian lore. Identifying Jesus as "savior of the world," in my opinion moves the comment over the line into "preaching" territory because it adds a component of faith (Jesus is savior of the world) as fact. Not all preaching is extensive or eloquent, nor does it have to be sophisticated, imo anyway.

 

If my child were in that class, I would not be upset. Kids say what's on their minds and the unexpected is one of the endearing things about children. Besides, she was probably thrilled to share something that is special to her, like all the kids in the class probably were.

 

However, in a discussion where details are picked apart, tugged, yanked, stomped on, and shoved through a sieve, it wouldn't surprise me if responses would be different than being there. After all, we're talking about big ideas, not watching a cute 6 year old girl share her happy family tradition.

I don't know.

 

Preaching, in my mind, is Billy Graham on TV. When someone says preaching (ETA: and here I should have added, "and I try to translate that to my experience...") think of the sermon or homily in the church service that runs about ten minutes and is a reflection on that Sunday's readings and how that might apply to a congregants life today. It's not something done to people outside the church and not an attempt at evangelizing. It's colouring how I think about this issue and it that context the girl's actions doubt seem like preaching.But her actions didn't have that context.

 

Frankly, as an aside, I often find the discussion amongst Christians here weird and alien. I'll be interested to see the responses to your question.

[WishboneDawn]

Well when someone in Australia (perhaps you) said "here" earlier, the reader assumed that "here" meant "on this forum," so I am sure it means different things to different intelligent people.

 

See, this whole business of taking offense when no offense was intended at all.

I get it SKL. I know you didn't mean any offense.

[DawnM]

Would you be less offended if a person said, "We are Christians.  That means we believe X and Y."

 

 

Dawn

 

 

So to satisfy some curiosity, what do you guys consider preaching?

 

I'll say that for me, preaching happens when one includes faith as fact. For example the little girl in this story explained how the Star of David signifies the story of the Three Wise Men going to see baby Jesus. This is fact without faith, as that is what the Star is. This can be corroborated in a number of places. It's part of general Christian lore. Identifying Jesus as "savior of the world," in my opinion moves the comment over the line into "preaching" territory because it adds a component of faith (Jesus is savior of the world) as fact. Not all preaching is extensive or eloquent, nor does it have to be sophisticated, imo anyway. 

 

If my child were in that class, I would not be upset. Kids say what's on their minds and the unexpected is one of the endearing things about children. Besides, she was probably thrilled to share something that is special to her, like all the kids in the class probably were.

 

However, in a discussion where details are picked apart, tugged, yanked, stomped on, and shoved through a sieve, it wouldn't surprise me if responses would be different than being there. After all, we're talking about big ideas, not watching a cute 6 year old girl share her happy family tradition.

 

[Library Momma]

I agree that the subtleties of religious etiquette are beyond the average 6 yo and they should really not be held accountable.  In the same vein though I am unsure why the chain of events that occurred are taken as fact coming from that same 6 yo.  When my ds was 6 he told me I was the meanest mom in the world because I forced him to eat kale.  Hardly an accurate description of the events, although FOX may have found a story in there somewhere.

[Library Momma]

I also have to say that I was one of the handful of Jewish kids in my school growing up.  Most kids were Catholic I believe.  I never really heard proselytizing  and was never really persecuted for being Jewish aside from an odd comment here or there.  I participated in many Christmas celebrations and sang many Christmas carols but was only truly offended once.  I was at an awards ceremony in High School and there was a priest as one of the presenters.  At one point he said "Let us pray in Jesus' name..."  That made me uncomfortable because all of a sudden it was about me.  Praying to Jesus was completely against my religion.  He could pray to Jesus as well as anyone else in the room but I didn't want to be dragged into it.

 

I see the same thing in the story of this little girl (Although I still question the accuracy).  I feel that she can talk about Christmas, and the star, and Jesus' birthday all she wants.  As soon as she mentions non-believers she is no longer talking about how she celebrates, she is talking about the other kids in the room.  It is bad manners at the very least and a I have no problem with a teacher correcting a student's manners.

[marbel]

I like that approach best. That way, you acknowledge both your own beliefs and the fact that others could believe something else. 

 

As an aside, what do you think about this? A friend was wished a "Merry Christmas" by a hijab-wearing cashier, to which my friend replied, "Thanks, you too!" She thought it would have been rude to say only "thanks", without returning the good wishes — though it was perfectly obvious the cashier did not celebrate Christmas. What is the correct approach in situations like those?

 

When someone who isn't Jewish wishes me happy Chanukah, I don't reply "thanks, you too". I'm happy they remember a holiday they don't celebrate, and I say "thanks!"

 

Is it possible the cashier celebrated "secular" Christmas?   I have friends who are atheists and celebrate Christmas as a secular, cultural holiday.  Come to think of it, I know Jews who do too.  I mean they call it Christmas, and have a tree and Santa and all that stuff, just not the Christ part of it.  They know it's a religious holiday for Christians, they don't celebrate it that way. 

 

Or maybe she is like our Jewish dentist, who wishes us happy Easter, Christmas, etc., because he knows we celebrate it.  At that point, I just say "thanks" unless I can say "Happy Chanukah!"  I never quite know what to say about Passover. Happy Passover?    That sounds odd to me.

[DawnM]

Actually, I think the cashier was perfectly appropriate and polite. She realized the customer DID celebrate Christmas and wished her a happy one.

 

I see nothing wrong with that.

 

If someone wishes me happy *insert something I don't celebrate* I might wish them the same.   I might just say thank you. 

 

Dawn

 

I like that approach best. That way, you acknowledge both your own beliefs and the fact that others could believe something else. 

 

As an aside, what do you think about this? A friend was wished a "Merry Christmas" by a hijab-wearing cashier, to which my friend replied, "Thanks, you too!" She thought it would have been rude to say only "thanks", without returning the good wishes — though it was perfectly obvious the cashier did not celebrate Christmas. What is the correct approach in situations like those?

 

When someone who isn't Jewish wishes me happy Chanukah, I don't reply "thanks, you too". I'm happy they remember a holiday they don't celebrate, and I say "thanks!"

 

[Scarlett]

I also have to say that I was one of the handful of Jewish kids in my school growing up. Most kids were Catholic I believe. I never really heard proselytizing and was never really persecuted for being Jewish aside from an odd comment here or there. I participated in many Christmas celebrations and sang many Christmas carols but was only truly offended once. I was at an awards ceremony in High School and there was a priest as one of the presenters. At one point he said "Let us pray in Jesus' name..." That made me uncomfortable because all of a sudden it was about me. Praying to Jesus was completely against my religion. He could pray to Jesus as well as anyone else in the room but I didn't want to be dragged into it.

 

I see the same thing in the story of this little girl (Although I still question the accuracy). I feel that she can talk about Christmas, and the star, and Jesus' birthday all she wants. As soon as she mentions non-believers she is no longer talking about how she celebrates, she is talking about the other kids in the room. It is bad manners at the very least and a I have no problem with a teacher correcting a student's manners.

I don't understand why a public prayer saying , in Jesus' name would be about you. ? Now if he said 'let us pray that Library Momma becomes a Christian' that would be making it about you.

 

Ftr, I don't let people who do not share my faith represent me in prayer, so I would be politely not participating in the prayer you described.

[Library Momma]

I don't understand why a public prayer saying , in Jesus' name would be about you. ? Now if he said 'let us pray that Library Momma becomes a Christian' that would be making it about you.

 

Ftr, I don't let people who do not share my faith represent me in prayer, so I would be politely not participating in the prayer you described.

 

Because at that moment I wanted to join the prayer and felt I couldn't and didn't participate.  If he had just said "Let us Pray" I could have chosen to do so or not as I saw fit.  

[marbel]

<snip>

 

Ftr, I don't let people who do not share my faith represent me in prayer, so I would be politely not participating in the prayer you described.

 

Here's another aside:  I'm genuinely curious what that means.   When I am in a place where a prayer of a faith not my own is being offered, no one would know I'm not participating in it.  I just pray silently my own prayer while the person is talking.  Is that what you mean?    I guess I'm asking, how do you not let them represent you?   I assume since you are polite you are not putting your hands over your ears so you can't hear it, or otherwise making it obvious you are not participating.  :001_smile:

[Hikin' Mama]

I refrained from commenting yesterday, but here goes.

 

The teacher did exactly what she accused the student of by assigning a task related to Christmas in the first place. Christmas is not a secular holiday. By assigning something related to Christmas, the teacher assumed nobody would be offended by THAT. If that is acceptable, it is also acceptable if students do what they were asked to do. And why not? Diversity is something to be celebrated, and listening to stories about other people's lifestyles does not equal having their lifestyles pushed down your throat. It's sad that public schools focus on political correctness to the point the exact opposite is actually achieved.

 

What's next? Asking students to tell stories about what they ate at home, only to chastise them for being vegetarian/meat eaters?

You are exactly right, imo. In the context given, the girl did nothing wrong. She was not going around school quoting scripture randomly to her classmates, she was responding to an assignment. She was sharing HER Christmas tradition and HER reasons behind it. I don't see where she was expecting anyone else to agree with her or be converted to her belief system.

 

I can appreciate hearing someone else's beliefs without feeling that they are saying I'm wrong/damned/whatever. THAT is being polite.

[Hikin' Mama]

You ask kids to talk about their tradition of celebrating what is for many people a religious holiday and then you tell them they can't talk about their religion? That's really stupid. I'm a flaming atheist and I see nothing wrong with what the girl did. The teacher was out of line in the first place for asking the kids to do that. That strikes me as a set up. Maybe the teacher did not intend to set them up, but WTH these are kids. And no harm would come to anyone if she talked about her family's tradition surrounding the holiday.

I so agree!

[Scarlett]

Here's another aside: I'm genuinely curious what that means. When I am in a place where a prayer of a faith not my own is being offered, no one would know I'm not participating in it. I just pray silently my own prayer while the person is talking. Is that what you mean? I guess I'm asking, how do you not let them represent you? I assume since you are polite you are not putting your hands over your ears so you can't hear it, or otherwise making it obvious you are not participating. :001_smile:

LOL.....yes, I say my own prayer. No hands over my ears.

[Scarlett]

Because at that moment I wanted to join the prayer and felt I couldn't and didn't participate. If he had just said "Let us Pray" I could have chosen to do so or not as I saw fit.

I guess I don't understand that at all. He was still Christian saying a Christian prayer even if he didn't say in Jesus name.

[Library Momma]

I guess I don't understand that at all. He was still Christian saying a Christian prayer even if he didn't say in Jesus name.

 

 

He can pray to whoever he wants but he is addressing everyone in the room in an attempt to include them.  If he was a Satanist that said "Now let us pray to Satan" it wouldn't be any different in terms of excluding those who perhaps wanted to join in and then felt they couldn't.

[Scarlett]

He can pray to whoever he wants but he is addressing everyone in the room in an attempt to include them. If he was a Satanist that said "Now let us pray to Satan" it wouldn't be any different in terms of excluding those who perhaps wanted to join in and then felt they couldn't.

Ok. I can't really relate because I would never want to join in in that situation.

[Firefly]

Pagan here.  My first thought was that this really not a big deal.  I've been in places (private events) where Native American, Christian, Jewish, and Buddhist prayers were offered and it didn't bother me in the least.  I've lived with prayer call five times a day in the Middle East as well.  Other's expressions of their faith/spirituality have never bothered me, personally.  BUT, public meetings/events/schools up here do not do prayer, so that experience is very foreign to me.  It also seems Bible thumper-types are not prevalent in this part of the US... most of our Protestants are WASPs, not Evangelical LOL.  I think if I'd experienced the kind of in-your-face proselytizing that many of you have had to live with, my opinion would be different; I could see where something like this would just be another straw on the camel's back.  I actually didn't realize until spending time on this board how pervasive radical Christianity was in certain regions of the US.  Very eye-opening.

 

I do think it's a little odd that the teacher assigned a topic about Christmas and then was surprised when one of the kids brought religion into it.  Sure, many celebrate it secularly, but she had to expect at least one would mention the religious aspect of it.

[Laurie4b]

 

 

As an aside, what do you think about this? A friend was wished a "Merry Christmas" by a hijab-wearing cashier, to which my friend replied, "Thanks, you too!" She thought it would have been rude to say only "thanks", without returning the good wishes — though it was perfectly obvious the cashier did not celebrate Christmas. What is the correct approach in situations like those?

 

 

 

I think the correct approach is to not overthink it.

 

It was kind of the cashier to wish your friend a Merry Christmas even though she didn't celebrate it. It is pretty normal to say, "Thanks, you too" in response to almost any good-wishes. I've found myself doing it in silly situations, such as when someone wishes me a happy birthday. It just automatically comes out sometimes!

 

I very much doubt that a cashier who was generous enough to wish a Merry Christmas would get offended by someone saying, "Thanks, you too!"  I think a simple "Thanks," would have been appropriate, but your friend wanted to return the kind act of wishing someone well. It's understandable and a kind impulse even if it came out a little awkwardly.

 

[Trish]

A reasonable teacher would assign secular holidays for this assignment if she didn't want to hear about religion.

 

I too would have trouble talking about our religious holiday traditions without touching on the religious/belief aspect of it.

 

It's sort of like assigning Independence Day but expecting any whiff of patriotism to be kept out of it. (Focus on the hotdogs and fireworks, please!)

 

Next year stick to Arbor Day!