Are Americans Wimps? (s/o from neglect thread)

[msjones]

There seems to be an idea that everyone deserves a single-family home, a high-paying job, and a variety of interesting food.

 

In other countries, it's normal to share housing, work your butt off to get by in a job that isn't a dream-come-true, and eat staple food items most days of the year.  Here, we think that's failure, or neglect, or poverty.  

 

Thoughts?

[Melissa in Australia]

:coolgleamA:

[caitlinsmom]

I have nothing to contribute to the conversation other than I have thought this myself a time or two.  I think we are quite entitled as a whole to be honest (yes a huge generalization obviously) as opposed to wimpy.

 

 

[jelbe5]

Maybe it depends on upbringing or what was modeled?

 

My parents came from Scotland with one suitcase each and worked very hard for what they have.

 

My Grandmother also came to the States and worked several jobs until she was forced to retire (she quickly declined and passed away shortly thereafter). She grew up in a 2 room house that had no running water with 12 brothers and sisters!

 

Hard work was a given but there were tangible rewards, kwim? Today there does not seem to be the same work ethic among many - there is a sense of entitlement among many in my humble opinion.

 

It's also about choices. My dh and I bought a teeny tiny house knowing one of us (probably me) would stay home after we had children. I'd like a bigger house but that would require me going back to work and right now my choice is to be at home and make the sacrifice. We are happy with that trade-off.

 

I also think somehow our society has been led to believe that there is something wrong with you if you don't go to a 4 year college and hold down an executive white collar job. There is nothing wrong with honest work be it at a trade or in an office but our culture seems to think those jobs are " less than". However, with unemployment being what it is this belief may be changing, especially when you see so many coming out of college with loan debt and few job prospects.

[Mrs Mungo]

Sharing housing is a norm in some places in the US. It is very common to live with extended family here in Hawaii, for example.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think those expectations change along with the realities.  I think already many families have changed - I know of a lot more homes being shared in my neighborhood and lots of people (including my dh) are having to take jobs that do not pay as well as in the past.  I think that people of all nationalities are tougher and more resilient than we give them credit for.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

A mighty great lot of Americans are sharing housing, working their butts off, and eating staple food items most days of the year.

[msjones]

A mighty great lot of Americans are sharing housing, working their butts off, and eating staple food items most days of the year.

I'm sure there are.

 

But that wasn't coming through in the 'educational neglect' thread.  There was a repeated suggestion that living on a low-paying job, sharing housing, etc was some kind of travesty.  

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm sure there are.

 

But that wasn't coming through in the 'educational neglect' thread. There was a repeated suggestion that living on a low-paying job, sharing housing, etc was some kind of travesty.

 

Do you think it is optimal to educationally neglect children so that they don't have choices or options? Not educating children and giving them choices *is* a travesty, IMO.

[msjones]

I wonder how quickly this thread will go downhill ?

 

I don't think it's 'wimpy' to want all children to have the opportunity to reach their own potential, starting with a good, solid education.

Hmm.  I wouldn't call that wimpy, either.  

 

But what I'm wishing to discuss is that many of us consider a basic education, a simple low-paying job, and humble housing to be signs of failure.  

[msjones]

Do you think it is optimal to educationally neglect children so that they don't have choices or options? Not educating children and giving them choices *is* a travesty, IMO.

No, I certainly don't think it is optimal.  

 

But I don't think it's neglect or abuse or anything horrible for a family to aspire to a simple, low-income lifestyle.  

 

My grandpa was a school custodian.  He was loved and admired and cherished by many.

 

He did not have a 'good' job (by the majority of Americans' standards).  He did not have a 'good' education.  He did not have much money.

 

But he had a good life.  

 

Working a low-wage job, living in humble circumstances, living with only a GED -- these are not necessarily poverty, misery, and ignorance.  

[KungFuPanda]

I think it's natural to want to do the best you can for your family. In some countries/situations, that "best" is more lucrative than in others. This doesn't necessarily equal greed. It's a positive that people always strive for improvement. One person's idea of a better life may mean a huge house, another person may value experiences. There are different ways to meet your potential. There's no reason to apologize for where you happened to be born.

[KungFuPanda]

DP

[Mom in High Heels]

I wouldn't say wimps, but I do think we're incredibly spoiled.  I didn't realize how much until we first moved to Europe and started traveling.  We knew a lot of Americans who grumped about the fact that there were no stores open on Sun or holidays (imagine that!), and nothing open 24hrs, and until 2004 (IIRC), everything had to be shut down by 4pm on Sat and 8pm M-F.  At that time (1997), a lot of stores still weren't taking credit cards and that irritated people.  I realized that it wasn't really that difficult, it's just not what we were used to.  It's not hard to plan what you need to get from the stores before they closed, and to make sure you had cash.  At the McDonald's (which is quite good in Europe), you can't add cheese to something that doesn't have cheese.  Why?  Because, as the guy at the counter said, when I asked, "I have no button for that!"  There are no free refills on drinks at restaurants.  The servers don't stop by your table every 5 minutes to see if they can get you anything, and aside from bringing your drinks, food and checking once after the food has been delivered, they pretty much leave you alone.  If you need something, well, you'd better ask the one time they come check on your, or be prepared to hunt them down (they can usually be found drinking wine at the bar).  There are security cameras, speeding cameras and red light cameras EVERYWHERE.  Americans seem to think that cameras are some sort of invasion of their privacy.  We had an acquaintance that would drive several extra block to go anywhere, so he could avoid the cameras.  If you're not doing anything wrong, what's the big deal?  

Many Europeans live in multi-generation or multi-family homes.  It's just how it is.  Do they want it to change?  I'm not sure.  Some want more, but others are just content the way things are.  My guess is because it wasn't all that long ago that things were much, much worse than they are now in many places in Europe.  A lot of Americans (not all), don't know what it's like to really sacrifice.  We've never had a war fought on our own soil by a foreign invader, and there hasn't been a war that really impacted the lives of pretty much all of Americans since WWII.  

We are a country of excess and waste.  The minute new technology comes out, people have to have it, no matter that their old tech is perfectly fine, and the new stuff costs a fortune.  James Bond and I both have iPhone 5c's, which we love, but had our European phones been unlockable (long story), we would have been perfectly happy to use those.  Americans just throw stuff away without thinking.  Recycling is not a way of life here; stuff just goes in the rubbish and the heck with it.

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

My point is that there's more than one kind of American. Ask whether WTM posters are entitled or whatever, based on our posts in a particular thread, but don't ask if Americans are wimps. That's offensive and insulting to the millions of Americans who are not wimps.

 

Just my opinion. I'm tired of people bashing our entire nation based on the actions and attitudes of some.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I wouldn't say wimps, but I do think we're incredibly spoiled. I didn't realize how much until we first moved to Europe and started traveling. We knew a lot of Americans who grumped about the fact that there were no stores open on Sun or holidays (imagine that!), and nothing open 24hrs, and until 2004 (IIRC), everything had to be shut down by 4pm on Sat and 8pm M-F. At that time (1997), a lot of stores still weren't taking credit cards and that irritated people. I realized that it wasn't really that difficult, it's just not what we were used to. It's not hard to plan what you need to get from the stores before they closed, and to make sure you had cash. At the McDonald's (which is quite good in Europe), you can't add cheese to something that doesn't have cheese. Why? Because, as the guy at the counter said, when I asked, "I have no button for that!" There are no free refills on drinks at restaurants. The servers don't stop by your table every 5 minutes to see if they can get you anything, and aside from bringing your drinks, food and checking once after the food has been delivered, they pretty much leave you alone. If you need something, well, you'd better ask the one time they come check on your, or be prepared to hunt them down (they can usually be found drinking wine at the bar). There are security cameras, speeding cameras and red light cameras EVERYWHERE. Americans seem to think that cameras are some sort of invasion of their privacy. We had an acquaintance that would drive several extra block to go anywhere, so he could avoid the cameras. If you're not doing anything wrong, what's the big deal?

Many Europeans live in multi-generation or multi-family homes. It's just how it is. Do they want it to change? I'm not sure. Some want more, but others are just content the way things are. My guess is because it wasn't all that long ago that things were much, much worse than they are now in many places in Europe. A lot of Americans (not all), don't know what it's like to really sacrifice. We've never had a war fought on our own soil by a foreign invader, and there hasn't been a war that really impacted the lives of pretty much all of Americans since WWII.

We are a country of excess and waste. The minute new technology comes out, people have to have it, no matter that their old tech is perfectly fine, and the new stuff costs a fortune. James Bond and I both have iPhone 5c's, which we love, but had our European phones been unlockable (long story), we would have been perfectly happy to use those. Americans just throw stuff away without thinking. Recycling is not a way of life here; stuff just goes in the rubbish and the heck with it.

Lots of Americans are content and grateful. Lots of us don't constantly upgrade our technology, and couldnt buy an iphone 5c or whatever, no matter what happened to our European phones (plural). That is laughable, by the way...not sure you're standing entirely with the meek and lowly... Lots of us have recycling, reusing, and going without as a way of life. We're not imaginary. We're also America.

[Catwoman]

Hmm.  I wouldn't call that wimpy, either.  

 

But what I'm wishing to discuss is that many of us consider a basic education, a simple low-paying job, and humble housing to be signs of failure.  

 

 

I don't think anyone can make that kind of sweeping, general statement. There are too many factors to consider.

[Catwoman]

My point is that there's more than one kind of American. Ask whether WTM posters are entitled or whatever, based on our posts in a particular thread, but don't ask if Americans are wimps. That's offensive and insulting to the millions of Americans who are not wimps.

 

Just my opinion. I'm tired of people bashing our entire nation based on the actions and attitudes of some.

 

:iagree:

 

I can't imagine this thread ending well.

[Catwoman]

 

If you want to talk about spoiled Western lifestyles, I'm onboard.

 

 

But why?

 

Seriously. 

 

Why is it necessary for people to discuss "spoiled Western lifestyles?" :glare:

 

It's terribly judgmental.

[Catwoman]

Well, I don't particularly want to rehash the gas thread either, come to think of it :)

 

Idk. I was just trying to be conciliatory towards the OP I guess.

 

The fortune cookie I just ate did say 'You cannot help the poor man by destroying the rich man' lol.

 

So yeah. It's NYE here. Happy 2014 to all.

 

Happy New Year to you, too!  (We've still got around 21 more hours until New Year's where I live, but I'm more than willing to start celebrating early!) 

 

:party:

[Rosie_0801]

There seems to be an idea that everyone deserves a single-family home, a high-paying job, and a variety of interesting food.

 

In other countries, it's normal to share housing, work your butt off to get by in a job that isn't a dream-come-true, and eat staple food items most days of the year.  Here, we think that's failure, or neglect, or poverty.  

 

Thoughts?

 

That sounds optimistic, not wimpy.

 

 

Everyone who is alive is striving for something. If single family home, a high paying job and a variety of interesting food motivates a person to get out of bed in the morning, great. It's not drug dealing, is it? If jerks look down on respectable lower socio economic people, someone should be praying they are reincarnated with more potential for wisdom next time.

[Elfknitter.#]

There seems to be an idea that everyone deserves a single-family home, a high-paying job, and a variety of interesting food.

 

In other countries, it's normal to share housing, work your butt off to get by in a job that isn't a dream-come-true, and eat staple food items most days of the year. Here, we think that's failure, or neglect, or poverty.

 

Thoughts?

I don't think anyone can make that kind of sweeping, general statement. There are too many factors to consider.

Except it does seem to be a mainstream view. Success, in America, is defined by wealth and accumulation. When we do not achieve the material items, we have "failed." (Not that I agree with this line of thinking, but I do think it is the benchmark by which many judge themselves.)

 

Eta: iPad typos. :eyeroll:

[Mom in High Heels]

Lots of Americans are content and grateful. Lots of us don't constantly upgrade our technology, and couldnt buy an iphone 5c or whatever, no matter what happened to our European phones (plural). That is laughable, by the way...not sure you're standing entirely with the meek and lowly... Lots of us have recycling, reusing, and going without as a way of life. We're not imaginary. We're also America.

 

I didn't say ALL Americans.  I am not at all calling myself meek or lowly.  I know we're not, and I know we're lucky not to be.  That doesn't mean I can't recognize how spoiled many Americans are.  I'm entitled to state my opinion on the matter.  

 

On the news, there were people griping about how their Christmas was "spoiled," because UPS, USPS or FedEx wasn't able to deliver their orders on time.  No, your Christmas wasn't "spoiled," you're just being a jackass.  There were people who were without power due to the winter storms (the same storms that kept the packages from being delivered), but they got a shorter news clip, long after the "package fiasco."  People need to find something real to be upset about.

 

Every time a new Apple product comes out, people camp out to get them, even if they don't need it.  To be honest, I suppose nobody really NEEDS any of the current tech, it just makes life easier (sometimes).   We have cell phones because James Bond travels a lot (he was recently in Japan for a few weeks) and it's less expensive to make calls on our cells than a landline, not to mention that he doesn't always have access to a landline.  We were quite lucky when he was in Afghanistan that he was able to occasionally access a landline, but when he didn't, we used cell phones.  A year is a long time to go without being able to talk every now and then.  He couldn't take his cell into the building where he worked (he's never been able take any sort of electronics into his offices for security reasons), but he had it in his room, and could call me when he got off work.  

 

Yes, there are places that recycle.  The Seattle area is great about, but it's nothing like we had in Europe.  It's a LAW there.  They have garbage inspectors to make sure people are separating their garbage into the proper bins at their homes (external bins of course), and will fine people who don't.  I don't see that happening nationwide in the US.  People would raise holy hell about their rights and blah, blah.  We (I'm including myself in this, because I do it sometimes too), just toss stuff out and don't think about the impact it has on the planet.  Recycling is not mandatory in my town, though strongly encouraged, yet many people in our subdivision do not recycle.  I know, because they have yet to put out recycling bins on trash day.  Many of us do though.  It drives me crazy sometimes that much of the stuff we recycled in Europe doesn't get recycled here.   It's "too expensive" to recycle it.  IMO, it's too expensive NOT to recycle it.

 

There are many who go without as a way of life (I know several), either by choice or necessity, but there are many, many who are willing to go in debt to get the stuff they want, simply because they want it and feel they should have it.  They don't consider the consequences of what's going to happen when they get the bills later.  If that weren't true, the housing market wouldn't have gone to hell a few years ago.  Banks were giving people loans for houses the people knew they couldn't really afford, but they wanted, and the bank was willing to lend it, so why not?  When they couldn't pay, they got upset over it.  

 

James Bond grew up going without a lot.  He comes from a family of 7, and his dad was on strike for TWO YEARS.  I personally think when you have that many mouths to feed, you either suck it up and cross the picket line or find another job, but that's neither here nor there.  JB knows what it means to go without.  He's still obsessive about money.

 

I did not grow up rich (again, by any means), but I am an only child, and my dad had a good job.  I did not go without.  I went to a pricey all girls' school (to be fair though, I was on scholarship), got a car when I turned 16, and had a fairly privileged upbringing.  That was sheer luck on my part to be born into a family that could afford things.  That's not to say I got everything I wanted.  I was told 'no' plenty of times, but I never knew what it meant to "go without."  I fully admit that I was lucky.  Again though, that doesn't mean I can't recognize the excess and waste and general attitude of many people of being entitled to have what they want.

 

My kids are pretty spoiled with stuff (they are my parent's only grandchildren), but we try to teach them to appreciate what they have.  Indy went through a long spell of wanting more, more, more, until JB and I were just ready to strangle him.  We finally went through all his stuff and pulled out everything he hadn't played with in a long time.  We discussed what it must be like to not have anything and how having too much made him only want more, but not appreciate it.  A friend of mine lives in Congo, and does a lot of work with a couple of orphanages there.  Indy packed up all the toys he no longer played with and we shipped it all to my friend.  She has a FB page for the orphanage, and one day I was flipping through the photos and called Indy over.  We saw several of his toys being played with by children who had absolutely nothing.  He was so happy that he had made other kids happy with things he didn't need.  After that, he started purging his stuff more frequently to give to charities, and asked for less.  We're trying to teach him contentment.  He's 11 though, so I don't expect him to really quit wanting things, but he does appreciate what he gets a lot more than he used to.  

 

Yes, there are plenty of content people, but from what I see those who expect things without being able to pay for them, far outweigh the content people.   

 

I have more to say, but it's after midnight and I'm tired.

[LucyStoner]

I wonder how quickly this thread will go downhill ?

 

I don't think it's 'wimpy' to want all children to have the opportunity to reach their own potential, starting with a good, solid education.

Was it ever up any hill?

[LucyStoner]

Yes. Absolutely. I totally got a job at age 12 (worked before that, 12 was when it was official and I filed a tax return) and supported my younger brother while in college locally instead of taking one of several offered scholarships out of state because I am a wimp. And super spoiled. I am hardly exceptional or an anomaly in caring for relatives or working from a young age to pay for family needs. Like heat and food.

 

Seriously? Thinking that all Americans are wimps is silly. Thinking that all people who reject a view of education where parental rights vastly trump a child's rights are wimps is almost equally silly.

[NASDAQ]

Americans are successful and want great things for their collective children. Nothing wrong with that.

 

Most people would consider it admirable if a person lives with extended family, works a lousy job, and eats staples in pursuit of a goal of his choosing. But the educational neglect thread concerned parents who make the choice to limit their child. And that's a cruddy thing to do.

[LucyStoner]

Yes, there are places that recycle. The Seattle area is great about, but it's nothing like we had in Europe. It's a LAW there. They have garbage inspectors to make sure people are separating their garbage into the proper bins at their homes (external bins of course), and will fine people who don't. I don't see that happening nationwide in the US. People would raise holy hell about their rights and blah, blah. We (I'm including myself in this, because I do it sometimes too), just toss stuff out and don't think about the impact it has on the planet. Recycling is not mandatory in my town, though strongly encouraged, yet many people in our subdivision do not recycle. I know, because they have yet to put out recycling bins on trash day. Many of us do though. It drives me crazy sometimes that much of the stuff we recycled in Europe doesn't get recycled here. It's "too expensive" to recycle it. IMO, it's too expensive NOT to recycle it.

 

Because this thread could use some levity.

 

I am here to tell ya that in parts of Seattle a garbage inspector would be a waste because you recycle primarily not to suffer the wrath of the self appointed garbage inspectors known as your neighbors. And your kids. Try to toss the compost into the garbage bin here. Just try it. You might never recover the social shame and your kids certainly won't let you hear the end of it.

 

Says the woman who accidentally tossed a piece of paper into the garbage at a homeschool event last month. I don't know if it is safe to show my face again. I wish this was really all a joke. ;)

[creekland]

Because this thread could use some levity.

 

I am here to tell ya that in parts of Seattle a garbage inspector would be a waste because you recycle primarily not to suffer the wrath of the self appointed garbage inspectors known as your neighbors. And your kids. Try to toss the compost into the garbage bin here. Just try it. You might never recover the social shame and your kids certainly won't let you hear the end of it.

 

Says the woman who accidentally tossed a piece of paper into the garbage at a homeschool event last month. I don't know if it is safe to show my face again. I wish this was really all a joke. ;)

 

Let me just say that kids in my classes know they'd best choose the correct bucket for their cast offs (recycle or trash).

 

My family learned long ago.

 

I'm pretty proud that my youngest is about as "green" as they come (by choice).  The others may be merely because of how they were brought up.

 

FWIW, I use humor, not shame... ;)  It works better.  Humor brings back good memories and gets kids doing things because they want to.  Shame can make them obstinate and seldom leaves good vibes.

 

Wimps or not (some are, some aren't - I know some of each), there's no reason to "trash" our planet.  Who, in reality, doesn't want to breathe clean air or drink clean water?  Who likes to travel and see garbage?  Who wants to use up our limited resources?  Without thought, all of that can happen, but with some thought... people tend to make better choices (not always, of course, but usually).

 

[LucyStoner]

Creekland, the shame thing is tongue in cheek. You're preaching to the environmental choir here :). Cloth everything (including feminine hygeine pads), composting, recycling, bike/walk/bus, small house, buy nearly everything used if at all etc. and for a long time. None of these are new habits or changes that we needed to make because they have just been the norm. I started using cloth pads in the mid 1990s. I am from my city after all, lol. And, while no longer my financial reality, poor often meant the environmental choice. We just didn't know it was going to be all hip and cool down the line.

[creekland]

Creekland, the shame thing is tongue in cheek. You're preaching to the environmental choir here :). Cloth everything (including feminine hygeine pads), composting, recycling and for a long time.

I started using cloth pads in the mid 1990s. I am from my city after all, lol. And poor often meant the environmental choice. We just didn't know it was going to be all hip and cool down the line.

 

I figured that from you.  It's all the others who are going to be reading and assuming I'm in my classroom on my pedestal shaming all the little darlings in my room that I added the explanation for.   The FWIW statement was added last - as I was proof-reading - then thinking about how threads can go.... ;)

 

[LucyStoner]

It's the middle of the night. At least it is here. I don't know where you are Creekland. Actually, it's getting early enough to make coffee. So we can both be forgiven for being all extra literal and pedantic. Insomnia sucks. So far I have posted here, read a chunk of a biography of Charles Dickens and tried several times to fall asleep. I am so gonna pay for this tomorrow. Or today. I am so going to pay for this today. Thanks for the chatter. ;)

[creekland]

I'm east coast, so it's actually morning here (7:20am).  I've been up since about 4am though - pretty normal for me.  My brain turns off fairly early in the evening, so I'll be IVing the caffeine to stay awake tonight.  The rest of my family are night owls.  They're still sleeping in.  Morning is my computer time and plotting/planning time.  Of course, when I'm working (at school), I'm also in school by now, but this is still Christmas break.

 

Good luck getting some sleep in at some point.  :grouphug:

[SorrelZG]

Well, I can only speak for myself but, despite being quite frugal in the States and quite modest in my expectations and goals, moving to Asia made me realize I actually do feel quite entitled (and a little wimpy, but wasn't intending to write about that). I don't find my sense of entitlement tied up with being an American citizen or a westerner but a human being whose normal has been privileged compared to what is counted as normal in other parts.

 

Without even thinking about I hold every human being as having the right to affordable, quality health care and a decent, liberal (liberating) education - perhaps I could just sum it all up as "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." I know there are places you can go in the States (perhaps some of you live in them) where those things aren't the case (I'm also on the fly recalling a recent thread about a good education not actually being a protected "right" in the U.S.) but this experience has forced me to think about what I took for granted. Yes I knew what to expect but I didn't realize how deeply I felt *reality* to be a tremendous violation of human rights. I guess I maintained a splitin my head between what I knew was real outside my safe, affluent bubble, and how it made me feel as a fellow human being.

 

Now, I don't see having the latest iPhone as one of those rights (or the iPad I'm typing on apart from the education it is linking me to which I do feel, rightly or wrong, entitled to) but, as an example of the silly limits of my entitlement, I did discover that I think having bright white teeth while maintaining a high consumption of coffee, etc. to be something I *should* be able to have - and then I remembered back to a time when I couldn't afford whitening products or even the toothpaste because it was more expensive than regular toothpaste - and then there was the thought that DH actually buys toothpaste for the students of the school he teaches at because toothpaste in itself isn't something they can afford.

[BigMamaBird]

Our power was out for five days this week, right over Christmas in fact.  I'll admit it, I am a wimp.  I would not do well in a survival situation.  Probably would have given a tooth for a flushable toilet.  But, take away all the holiday trappings, and we had what I imagine, is one of our best Christmases in years.  No TVs or other screens to distract us, shacking up with my elderly Grandmother who loved having kids for Christmas morning for the first time in decades, pitching in and doing what we could for others.  It was hard but fun.  

 

I think our current modern culture teaches us to value the wrong things and if we fall into that trap we become weakened.  I had to mentally stop myself a few times from thinking "Christmas is ruined!"  No, it wasn't ruined.  It's what I make it.  I can bemoan the fact that my standard of living is lower than many around me or I can find the joy in what I've been blessed with.  Just don't take away my toilet!

[mytwomonkeys]

Well. My family is American & we aren't wimps. :)

[NASDAQ]

Of all of the things that may bother me about my country, "lack of people paid by the government to spy on my garbage" is not one.

[TCB]

First of all I would like to say that I realize that there are many different types of people that make up a nation. I know you can't say that all (insert nationality) are the same. But I do think that there are some characteristics that are often true of a large number of people in a country. I'm just curious if those of you that are upset about Americans being generalised as spoiled, have spent much time in other countries. I know some of you have, but I wondered if most of you have?

 

I personally think that most of the western world takes their blessings for granted. I don't think it is solely a characteristic of America, but it does rather hit you in the face quite often over here, at least in the middle of the country where I live. There is a lot of relative poverty around here, but people are very wasteful, and most of the people I come across are fairly materialistic as well.

[SorrelZG]

Our power was out for five days this week, right over Christmas in fact. I'll admit it, I am a wimp. I would not do well in a survival situation. Probably would have given a tooth for a flushable toilet. But, take away all the holiday trappings, and we had what I imagine, is one of our best Christmases in years. No TVs or other screens to distract us, shacking up with my elderly Grandmother who loved having kids for Christmas morning for the first time in decades, pitching in and doing what we could for others. It was hard but fun.

 

I think our current modern culture teaches us to value the wrong things and if we fall into that trap we become weakened. I had to mentally stop myself a few times from thinking "Christmas is ruined!" No, it wasn't ruined. It's what I make it. I can bemoan the fact that my standard of living is lower than many around me or I can find the joy in what I've been blessed with. Just don't take away my toilet!

THIS is more what I think about when considering the idea of *wimp* and yes, living in the States has made me soft (I think I could say wimpy). Central air has made me soft. Regular trash service (as opposed to the none I now have). Reliable electricity and water. A community of people that appreciate (and pay for and habitually use) hand soap and sanitizer. Chicken breasts individually wrapped in vacuum sealed packages instead of on the chicken in the dirty, open market. A community where we ask, "Where is the bathroom?" rather than, "Does this house have a bathroom?" Yep. Stamp me as a wimp.

[poppy]

It's all relative. We are all very hardscrabble compared to Paris Hilton and other born-to-wealth folks who have never had to do laundry or - I don't know- buy their own toothbrush.

[elegantlion]

Wimpy, no, not as a general statement. 

 

Overindulged, some, but not everyone partakes in the saturated consumeristic chaos. I'm not talking about the best of what you can afford. I'm talking about the buying just to buy, the upgrading everything on a whim not as a thought out decision. 

 

I'll admit it's easy for me to live in a small rural town right now rather than the sprawling suburbs in which I grew up. People drive older cars, we hang our laundry out and no one cares. There is not the flashy consumerism  (whether intentional or not) I see in other places. 

 

Am I spoiled? A bit, I have gas heat now, we were using space heaters earlier this winter - long story, don't ask. Outside of the heated bedrooms, my house was about 35 degrees when I woke up. My olive oil sitting above the stove froze. I have electricity and the Internet, and as a now single mother, I have government aid to help me pay for my college education. 

 

 

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Maybe wimps isn't the best descriptor, although I agree with the sentiment.  Maybe isolated.

 

We're a massive country, with enough space that sharing space is not embedded in our culture, we've never been invaded/occupied, never had to rebuild on a large scale, and, not for nothing, we're very young in European terms.  Oh, and we've been the dominant superpower for quite a while, now.  All superpowers think this way until they get knocked down -- remember the sun never sets on the British empire?

 

Just give it time.

[zoobie]

No, I certainly don't think it is optimal.

 

But I don't think it's neglect or abuse or anything horrible for a family to aspire to a simple, low-income lifestyle.

 

My grandpa was a school custodian. He was loved and admired and cherished by many.

 

He did not have a 'good' job (by the majority of Americans' standards). He did not have a 'good' education. He did not have much money.

 

But he had a good life.

 

Working a low-wage job, living in humble circumstances, living with only a GED -- these are not necessarily poverty, misery, and ignorance.

My grandparents on both sides were poor. Grew up poor (sharecroppers in the Deep South). Only one grandmother even graduated from high school. All highly valued education. All voracious readers. My grandfather who is still living dropped out of high school and lied about his age to join the Army to escape an abusive stepfather. My dad remembers he and his brother being given dinner first while the parents sat on the porch and talked. Eventually he realized it wasn't so they could chat privately but because they wanted the boys to eat until they were full. Then the parents would share whatever was left. The two sons went to technical school and got good jobs, raising the first generation of kids where no one worried about being hungry. There are 4 grandchildren in my generation. It was made very clear we were expected to go to college. We are a CPA, a lawyer, a vet, and a doctor. (All mostly on our own dimes.) Grandfather wishes there had been five because we need a dentist. ;) If any of us had been developmentally incapable of higher education, that would be different, but otherwise us not getting an education would have been seen as a rejection of everything he had risked his life (2 Purple Hearts) and worked 2 jobs after retiring from the Army to give our family.

 

We, as a country with so many resources, should make sure even the lowest wage jobs pay enough to support an adult. My grandfather shouldn't have been getting shot at in Korea while worrying whether his wife and kids had food. Yes, the janitors should be respected, and they should be paid a living wage.

 

I think there's value in education itself, and I think there are more opportunities available to a person with an education. I'd be upset if my kids rejected the education they are being and will be offered.

[Pawz4me]

I don't think I'm expressing myself well, and maybe what I'm "hearing" as an underlying tone of this thread isn't really there.  But here are my very random thoughts --

 

I think it's extremely unfair to characterize Americans as "wimps" because we've had the extreme good fortune to be born in a country where relative affluence is the norm.

 

I feel greatly for people who have the misfortune to be born in third world countries.  It must be horrible to have to struggle so hard just to live, to have a large portion of your day revolve around trying to find enough drinkable water or enough food to just barely avoid starvation.  It's heartbreaking.  But I certainly don't blame those people for their misfortune in having been born in poor, third world countries.  It wouldn't be logical or reasonable, IMO.  And neither is it logical or reasonable to blame Americans for being fortunate enough to be born in an affluent country.

 

If I lived in a third world country, aspiring to have sufficient clean water and decent food would probably be laudable goals (although I'm sure we can all agree those shouldn't have to be goals at all!).  Living in America, I don't think aspiring to get a college education, own a home and have a variety of healthy food to eat are outrageous goals or expectations at all.  As Poppy said, it's all relative.

 

And some of the generalizations that have been mentioned are simply wrong.  Recycling, for example, has been mandatory here for years.  I've never personally known any one who's stood in line to be the first to get a new iPhone or any other bit of technology.  I don't know anyone who feels like that have to have the latest and greatest.  I've never known anyone who has camped out to be the first in line for a Black Friday sale.  I've heard no one IRL mention the UPS/FedEx delivery issue over Christmas.  I have heard quite a few people express sympathy for our fellow citizens who've been w/o power for so long.  I think it would be wise to remember that what the media gives the most air time to is NOT always what Americans are actually concerned about or talking about.

[mommymilkies]

I wonder how quickly this thread will go downhill ?

 

I don't think it's 'wimpy' to want all children to have the opportunity to reach their own potential, starting with a good, solid education.

 

 

My point is that there's more than one kind of American. Ask whether WTM posters are entitled or whatever, based on our posts in a particular thread, but don't ask if Americans are wimps. That's offensive and insulting to the millions of Americans who are not wimps.

 

Just my opinion. I'm tired of people bashing our entire nation based on the actions and attitudes of some.

 

 

Maybe wimps isn't the best descriptor, although I agree with the sentiment.  Maybe isolated.

 

We're a massive country, with enough space that sharing space is not embedded in our culture, we've never been invaded/occupied, never had to rebuild on a large scale, and, not for nothing, we're very young in European terms.  Oh, and we've been the dominant superpower for quite a while, now.  All superpowers think this way until they get knocked down -- remember the sun never sets on the British empire?

 

Just give it time.

:iagree:  to all of the above.

 

Many people make up a nation.  We are not a homogenous group.  I'm sure every country has what others would consider weaknesses.  Too much pride that ends up in wars, riots, or aggression, too much poverty, too low of standards, too high of standards...You can't win.  I'm sure there are some wimps in America, just like any other country.  But judging someone's experience from the outside to call them a wimp is beyond ridiculous.  I don't consider it wimpy to not want to hot bunk or to not want to live off Ramen and to not want to die instead of getting medical care because you can't afford it.  I'm pretty sure every country is working to knock those things out-it's hardly an American sentiment. 

[creekland]

 

I'll admit it's easy for me to live in a small rural town right now rather than the sprawling suburbs in which I grew up. People drive older cars, we hang our laundry out and no one cares. There is not the flashy consumerism  (whether intentional or not) I see in other places. 

 

 

 

I'll admit this is one thing I love about rural living too.  We're not into consumerism and fit right in here.   Our newest car is a 2002.  Our appliances are all super old, our countertop isn't granite (or anything modern), we have one bathroom, we had to buy the guys (even hubby) suits/coats for oldest's wedding as we have no need of them in everyday life, and no one cares.  Many people have newer stuff - and still no one cares.  Our circle of friends stretches from educated high white collar to low end jobs (according to society), and no one cares that we're all friends.  (One of our friends will not even tell newbies what he does for a living when asked - preferring to tell them he doesn't want to be judged by his occupation.  He's a high up banker...)  Anyone will pitch in when help is needed - any job.  No one cares that they get dirty or were doing "menial" labor, etc.  In some areas where we lived, this was not the norm.  When we were selecting where we wanted to live (and raise our boys) this is one big plus that drew us to this area.  We could feel it.  I don't know that it happens in all rural areas, but it's that way here among our circle of friends/acquaintances.  Everyone is a peer - no one is higher/lower based upon income or occupation or choices.

 

We don't fit in where we have to 100% "live" up to expectations.  We can pretend for a while if needed, but it's not "us."

[momacacia]

In other countries, it's normal to share housing, work your butt off to get by in a job that isn't a dream-come-true, and eat staple food items most days of the year.  Here, we think that's failure, or neglect, or poverty.  

 

Thoughts?

 

My thoughts?

 

Isn't America great?!?! What a country!! No wonder people are emigrating here by the droves, and not just from Mexico. :coolgleamA:

 

[creekland]

There are other places besides rural that aren't about living up to expectations. 

 

There are, of course, as it's mainly an individual thing.  But there are many places where elitism is strong.

[creekland]

I'm sure, but I don't get the impression it's in the majority of places.  I suppose there is some silliness with gated communities, etc., but again, how average are those places? 

 

I think we see it more due to hubby's job (Civil Engineer) and when visiting private colleges (where many are full pay) on the multiple college trips we've been on.  There are definitely areas we go into for some reason or another where we have to "prove" ourselves before being taken seriously and can often be talked down to UNTIL people find out who we are (white collar college grads).  Sometimes we play along (if needed).  Sometimes we walk away (usually my preference).  Sometimes we secretly want to play the part of hillbilly and offer them a roadkill possum.  ;)

 

On the flip side, we can also find folks who detest anyone educated (this is more common in rural areas, but also happens in "poorer" sections of richer areas).  With these folks it's important that they get to know us first, then much later find out what we do.  This is why I think it's a superb idea to NOT let newbies know what one does until well after they've formed their opinions.  It works with this group, but not with the former.

 

Where we live now we never felt the need to do either.  That's what I like about it and one of the big reasons we chose to live in this little area of the country.

[regentrude]

Yeah are we supposed to be aspiring to difficult living conditions? 

 

No, but thinking about difficult living conditions elsewhere will go a long way towards more appreciation of what we have and more humility.

We are not wimps, but I would say we are quite spoiled. Which is very understandable, because you get used to what you have. I  pause every now and then to appreciate how comfortable my life is now compared to when I grew up/was a young adult:

I have heat without carrying buckets of coal up three flights of stairs and buckets of ashes down the same

I have a bathroom in my house and do not have to dress up to walk to a bathroom out on the cold stairwell that is shared with other families.

I have access to a wide variety of foods every day, without standing in line for meat or fruit.

I know it will be possible to buy what I need when I need it and do not have to hoard things just because they are available one day

 

Not to mention how different my life is compared to many other people in the world who have to walk miles to gather firewood or get water from a water hole, who have no electricity, no sewer, no toilets, no access to medical care or a varied, sufficient diet.

 

It behooves us to pause and appreciate the incredible standard of living almost all of us in this country have.

 

Most people take these for granted. (And yes, I do know homesteading families for whom water, heat and access to food are something they are deeply grateful for).

[creekland]

Why is it assumed people don't think about these things or there is a lack of appreciation for what they have? 

 

Because, IME, most don't.

 

Pretty much everyone I've ever talked with who has been to a developing nation has come back far more appreciative - even when it's not their first trip.  But most Americans don't travel like that, and while they might sort of know what's out there, they don't truly "know" what's out there.

 

Our position in the birth lottery directs much of what we know.