Are Americans Wimps? (s/o from neglect thread)

[msjones]

Well.  OP here.  

 

 

I wouldn't use the word "wimp" again (I'd probably choose "spoiled" or "entitled" or "snobs"). The word seems to have distracted from my main question.  My mistake.

 

I think this is the first time one of my posts has been called "silly" and "ridiculous" and "offensive."

It's okay.  Point taken. I know I'm painting with a broad brush, but that was sort of my intent.  I meant to discuss general, mainstream American culture -- not individual situations..

 

I still say that many (most) Americans see a modest income and basic education as failure.  They think it's tragic or heartbreaking or shameful to have to work hard to maintain a simple lifestyle.  I think that's a shame.  

 

 

 

 

[elegantlion]

Why is it assumed people don't think about these things or there is a lack of appreciation for what they have? 

 

Well I don't assume that. I assume the person with a good lifestyle appreciates it and worked hard to get there. 

 

IMO, part of the problem is perception and the mass keeping up with the Joneses that happens in some areas to some people. 

 

Way not typical, but I was astounded one day to be flipping channels and found a guy I was friends with high school showing up on, I think it was, Dr. Phil. He was lamenting how spoiled his kids were and needed "help" for him and his wife to stop indulging their extravagant life of stuff. 

 

Then I started to think of the area they were growing up. When I lived there and graduated high school in 1985, there was a pizza shoppe or two, a local burger joint, a Hardees, and McDonalds was new when I was in high school. That was it. If you wanted to shop you went to a different part of town. Now within a two mile radius you could blow a large lottery winning and not hit all the stores. It's out of hand. It's now "the" spot for that area of town, traffic is horrendous, and if you need it you can find it there. 

 

It's easy to get caught up on the frenzy and I could see how how over time this family got caught in the cycle of buying to buy. It was kind of sad, but probably not uncommon to that area. 

 

So instead of living a life of purpose, they live a life tied to their stuff and keeping it, maintaining it, and updating it. Do I think everyone with a nice car and house and more than 33 clothes is like that? Absolutely not. But it would be very easy for people in my area, people of my generation (early - mid 40s), to have gotten caught up in that without really thinking. There is a move away from that, to living a purposeful life and make it less about the tangible items. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Having goods, luxuries (small or large), and opportunity is not a character trait and does not determine how wimpy or spoiled you are.  How you respond to either the prosperity you have or the poverty you have can be looked at in moral terms.  So the whole premise of this thread is off, I think, by trying to make moral or character judgments based on externals.

 

In all 1st world countries (including but not exclusively the United States) we tend to have more goods, luxuries and opportunity than someone in a 3rd world country.  The people I know who have immigrated here from 3rd world countries do not aspire to keep things at the level that they left.  They may (and do) have a tougher row to hoe than some others but they still have more goods, luxuries and opportunity than where they came from.  Some of these people are people with fine character, some are not.  

 

I know people of all nationalities who are quite wealthy.  Some of these people are people with fine character, some are not.  And yes, obviously they have more goods, luxuries and opportunity than others - or at least the option to have more goods and luxuries.  Some have very unassuming lifestyles and some don't.  

[msjones]

Hmm.  I don't seem to have articulated my question well at all.  Again, I think the wording in the thread title is a major distraction and my own mistake.  

 

Perhaps it is just here in my PNW neighborhood.  But, most people I know would be very upset and embarrassed if their children never attended college and grew up to work a low-paying job.

 

Does that attitude not exist elsewhere in the USA?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Hmm.  I don't seem to have articulated my question well at all.  Again, I think the wording in the thread title is a major distraction and my own mistake.  

 

Perhaps it is just here in my PNW neighborhood.  But, most people I know would be very upset and embarrassed if their children never attended college and grew up to work a low-paying job.

 

Does that attitude not exist elsewhere in the USA?

People all over the world want their children to be able to access the educational opportunities available to them.  They also want them to be able to make at least a living wage that will allow them to have a family.  The details of what is available is different in different parts of the world, but I'd say in  most 1st world countries it would include college.  It is not unique to the US and I find the focus on that a bit strange and perhaps reflecting a lack of exposure to the wider world.  

[Elfknitter.#]

That attitude was in existence when I was going to high school 20+ years ago.  I've seen some slow acceptance that vocational school is an acceptable post secondary school option, where as before it  was "better than nothing."

[regentrude]

  But, most people I know would be very upset and embarrassed if their children never attended college and grew up to work a low-paying job.

 

Does that attitude not exist elsewhere in the USA?

 

I am in rural MO, and this is not the attitude I see. On the contrary, I am surrounded by homeschooling families who are quite vocal that "not everybody needs to go to college" and "college is overrated" and "one can be happy without college" - which is, of course, correct, but which is, IME, often used as cop-outs for not pursuing any rigorous academics in the home education.

Now, among my friends and colleagues with advanced degrees, college is seen as the default for their kids. But this is the same cultural experience I have made back home, where it is taken for granted by all my university educated friends that their children will attend a college preparatory high school and go to university as well.

I do, however, not think there would be embarassment if the child opted not to go to college because of a better plan: opening a business, becoming an expert in a trade, homesteading, things like this. They probably would be embarassed if their child was drifting, without a firm plan, was forgoing higher education because he is too lazy to do the work, would have trouble holding a series of low paying unskilled jobs because he can't get his act together, is unreliable, abusing drugs or alcohol. It would not be the low-paying job per se - it would be the lack of direction and character that would cause the embarassment.

[elegantlion]

Hmm.  I don't seem to have articulated my question well at all.  Again, I think the wording in the thread title is a major distraction and my own mistake.  

 

Perhaps it is just here in my PNW neighborhood.  But, most people I know would be very upset and embarrassed if their children never attended college and grew up to work a low-paying job.

 

Does that attitude not exist elsewhere in the USA?

 

I don't think that sentiment is as prevalent in the mid-west where I am. We have a lot of farmers, self-employed trade workers, and being a SAHM has never been looked down on here. I would say people would be embarrassed if their children didn't grow up to have a strong work ethic, regardless of what they do and how much they earn. I see a lot of pride in workmanship, even if you're the garbage collector - and I'm glad they're out there today when it's 15 degrees outside. There seems to be more emphasis on character and reputation rather than credentials here. 

[Joker]

I would think most parents hope their children have it easier and better than they did. My own parents worked their butts off so we could have a roof over our head and food in our stomach. Neither went to college, they never owned a home, and they never got ahead. Were they happy? Absolutely! Did they want us to be able to do better? Absolutely! I don't think there is anything wrong with that at all. I feel the same way for my own children. I would think that sentiment is shared by most parents no matter where they live. The 'hope my kids have it easier' part would, of course, be dependent on where they live and how hard they themselves have had it.

 

I don't know anyone who would be embarrassed by their children not going to college or working a low paying job. They would hope for better for them though, because they don't want to see them struggle and have to work so hard for so little.

[Pawz4me]

Hmm.  I don't seem to have articulated my question well at all.  Again, I think the wording in the thread title is a major distraction and my own mistake.  

 

Perhaps it is just here in my PNW neighborhood.  But, most people I know would be very upset and embarrassed if their children never attended college and grew up to work a low-paying job.

 

Does that attitude not exist elsewhere in the USA?

 

We've always told our kids that we don't care what they do as long as they're happy and can support themselves.  And it's true.  Although I could very well be wrong (and as far as I'm concerned he WILL attend college), it won't surprise me if youngest DS chooses a relatively low paying, low mental stress job.  He doesn't have many material wants, but he definitely prefers a quiet, calm life.  That's often harder to do with a higher paying, mentally stressful job.

 

In certain hypothetical future situations could I envision myself being a bit embarrassed to admit that my grown son worked a minimum wage job?  Yes, sure.  Especially if it was a job that's typically viewed as a dead end.  But I don't know that I'd be "very" embarrassed.  A lot of minimum wage jobs are what keep our society ticking along.  And I think any embarrassment would be more because of not taking advantage of potential and opportunities than it would be because of the job itself.

 

In general . . no, I don't see that attitude here a lot. It's certainly not pervasive.

[msjones]

People all over the world want their children to be able to access the educational opportunities available to them.  They also want them to be able to make at least a living wage that will allow them to have a family.  The details of what is available is different in different parts of the world, but I'd say in  most 1st world countries it would include college.  It is not unique to the US and I find the focus on that a bit strange and perhaps reflecting a lack of exposure to the wider world.  

 

 

I do not have a lack of exposure to the wider world.  Far from it.  

 

I refer to Americans in this thread merely because most WTM forum members are Americans.  

[katilac]

There are, of course, as it's mainly an individual thing.  But there are many places where elitism is strong.

 

Yes, and those areas are just as likely to be rural! There's nothing magical about living in the country, imo. We lived in several completely different types of areas when dh first started his job, and the truly rural one was by far the least accepting of different personalities, interests, and lifestyles. City folk are just as capable of accepting and caring about others.  There are good people and bad people everywhere, positive and negative communities everywhere. 

 

Well.  OP here.  

 

 

I wouldn't use the word "wimp" again (I'd probably choose "spoiled" or "entitled" or "snobs"). The word seems to have distracted from my main question.  My mistake.

 

I think this is the first time one of my posts has been called "silly" and "ridiculous" and "offensive."

It's okay.  Point taken. I know I'm painting with a broad brush, but that was sort of my intent.  I meant to discuss general, mainstream American culture -- not individual situations..

 

I still say that many (most) Americans see a modest income and basic education as failure.  They think it's tragic or heartbreaking or shameful to have to work hard to maintain a simple lifestyle.  I think that's a shame.  

 

I still don't think you have nailed down what you truly want to discuss. Wimpy, spoiled, entitled, snobs - these words all have quite different meanings. 

 

Also, I think one group of posters is talking about people having to live a modest lifestyle (small living quarters and basic but nourishing food), while another group is talking about people struggling to have any place to live and enough food to eat.  Very different scenarios. I think the point some are trying to make is that many people work very hard in America without being able to obtain that modest lifestyle. 

 

Hmm.  I don't seem to have articulated my question well at all.  Again, I think the wording in the thread title is a major distraction and my own mistake.  

 

Perhaps it is just here in my PNW neighborhood.  But, most people I know would be very upset and embarrassed if their children never attended college and grew up to work a low-paying job.

 

Does that attitude not exist elsewhere in the USA?

 

I'm sure it exists everywhere, to some extent. Yes, there are people who will be upset if their kids don't work toward a high-paying and/or high-status job. This is sometimes b/c it is what they are used to, and sometimes b/c it is NOT what they are used to - many parents who come from a poor background cannot understand why their kids would want to duplicate that! So, it's not always a case of snobby elitists who don't know how great it can be to be poor  :001_smile:

[msjones]

 

 

I still don't think you have nailed down what you truly want to discuss. Wimpy, spoiled, entitled, snobs - these words all have quite different meanings. 

 

 

You're right!

 

It's what I was just thinking as I cleaned the kitchen.

 

 Something about the 'neglect' thread just rubbed me the wrong way.  I haven't yet put my finger on just what it was.  

 

I'll be thinking about it.  

[Luanne]

I do find that people who have these things think YOU are not working hard enough if you do not have these things.  My sister easily forgets that she doesn't make that much money, but her husband does so she lives very comfortably and seems to think that my daughter and I just don't work hard enough or we would be in her same position.  Her husband is the one who works hard and makes most of their money.  It isn't just my sister who is this way either.  I have come across other people who are the same way.

[Elfknitter.#]

I do find that people who have these things think YOU are not working hard enough if you do not have these things.  My sister easily forgets that she doesn't make that much money, but her husband does so she lives very comfortably and seems to think that my daughter and I just don't work hard enough or we would be in her same position.  Her husband is the one who works hard and makes most of their money.  It isn't just my sister who is this way either.  I have come across other people who are the same way.

 

Piggie-backing on that thought, there's also the reverse of this.  That hard working people who only make x amount could in no way afford the "luxury" items they may have.

[Shellydon]

I would not use the term wimp, I would use uninformed or uneducated.  Most Americans have not traveled abroad to truly poor countries and therefore have no idea how truly fortunate they are.  When we deliver gifts for Angel Tree or something similar ministry, I am always struck at how the homes always have cable/satellite, game systems, large wall mounted flat screen TVs etc.  Things that my family does not own.  These families apply for government and church help, but spend large amounts of money on entertainment.  They also complain bitterly about being poor, but truly don't know what poor is.

I know people that only purposely work 20-30 hours a week and complain that they don't make enough to own a home-- yet refuse to work more. 

 

 I think that a very large portion of Americans have an entitlement attitude. 

[katilac]

Piggie-backing on that thought, there's also the reverse of this.  That hard working people who only make x amount could in no way afford the "luxury" items they may have.

 

Yep. For example, a relative who shall go unnamed got all huffy about a homeless person who had a cell phone. How do they have this luxury?? 

 

Well, dude, the cell phone bill might be $20 to $50 a month. A room in a flophouse might be $400 to $600 a month. It's very easy to be able to afford a cell phone and not a place to live! And that cell phone might be keeping you informed on where day work is available, which shelter has rooms for the night, or when a relative might meet you to give you food or money. 

 

Likewise, a working family might be able to come up with $500 one time for an ipad, but not $500 every month for a better living space or other ongoing expenses.

 

Many people will roll their eyes at a 'poor' person buying an ipad, without taking that into account - or taking into account that the ipad can open a whole new educational world to the kids. I pay about $100 for the printed version of my kids' French text, but the ipad version is $15 (and there are many more $15 texts, and even cheaper or free educational apps). They would likely earn praise for spending money on a French text, etc, but that isn't neccessarily the wise financial decision! 

[mommymilkies]

I don't think that sentiment is as prevalent in the mid-west where I am. We have a lot of farmers, self-employed trade workers, and being a SAHM has never been looked down on here. I would say people would be embarrassed if their children didn't grow up to have a strong work ethic, regardless of what they do and how much they earn. I see a lot of pride in workmanship, even if you're the garbage collector - and I'm glad they're out there today when it's 15 degrees outside. There seems to be more emphasis on character and reputation rather than credentials here. 

 

It really depends on where you live.  I've lived all over the place and the acceptance of SAHMs seems to be more generational.  I continually get the "I wish I could afford that! Must be nice to not have to think about bills." (*snort* quite ignorant, IMHO), or "What do you do all day? Don't you want to contribute?" sort of comments like I'm Peggy Bundy.  However, the older generations in town-those about my grandmother's age are very supportive and kind, even if they never were able to or wanted to SAH.  We're really really rural and it doesn't change that, but then again I didn't talk to many people when I lived in urban areas. ;) Being in a small town means everyone knows everyone and they constantly stop you to talk to you.  :lol:

 

Yep. For example, a relative who shall go unnamed got all huffy about a homeless person who had a cell phone. How do they have this luxury?? 

 

Well, dude, the cell phone bill might be $20 to $50 a month. A room in a flophouse might be $400 to $600 a month. It's very easy to be able to afford a cell phone and not a place to live! And that cell phone might be keeping you informed on where day work is available, which shelter has rooms for the night, or when a relative might meet you to give you food or money. 

 

Likewise, a working family might be able to come up with $500 one time for an ipad, but not $500 every month for a better living space or other ongoing expenses.

 

Many people will roll their eyes at a 'poor' person buying an ipad, without taking that into account - or taking into account that the ipad can open a whole new educational world to the kids. I pay about $100 for the printed version of my kids' French text, but the ipad version is $15 (and there are many more $15 texts, and even cheaper or free educational apps). They would likely earn praise for spending money on a French text, etc, but that isn't neccessarily the wise financial decision! 

Exactly!  Our finances are shaky, at best.  But for the cost of one month of health insurance, I could buy ~4 iPads or two years of my cell service (of which I was given the chance for a free iPhone but used what money I had to upgrade to more storage). I think people are quick to judge the "poor" without considering individual circumstances or what things actually cost. 

[Luanne]

I wonder how quickly this thread will go downhill ?

 

I don't think it's 'wimpy' to want all children to have the opportunity to reach their own potential, starting with a good, solid education.

 

It seems to me like you are trying to resurrect the other thread.  You should stick to the topic at hand.

 

[Jane in NC]

I live in a rural area that has grown in population by leaps and bounds over the last fifteen years or so.  The "incomers" for the most part are retirees, many from the Northeast or Mid-Atlantic states. For the most part, they are coming to the NC coast with money and pensions--and have radically driven up the price of real estate in the process.

 

Through my work in 4-H I have met many families who traditional ways of life are threatened by rising land prices and the Asian fishing industry.  Farmers cannot afford to farm while shrimpers cannot sell a wild caught  product as cheaply as Asian farmed seafood.  Education is critical for people in these traditional fields.  They have to compete with industrial food producers.

 

Frankly I think it is an honor to contribute to the livelihood of these hard working families. 

 

I hear people complain about "kids these days" or how people don't want to work.  Then they turn around and go to the Big Box for their cheap food bagged by minimally paid workers.  Why aren't they buying seafood from the boats and produce from the locals who are working far more than 40 hours a week to keep a roof over their heads?

 

The thirteen year old girl I know who runs a blue crab molting operation (for soft shell crabs) is anything but a wimp. 

 

That said, it completely amazed me after the last tropical storm went through and the thing that some people complained about most was lack of cable.  Over-privileged? I think I might go as far as calling them wimps...

[Mergath]

Yep. For example, a relative who shall go unnamed got all huffy about a homeless person who had a cell phone. How do they have this luxury?? 

 

Well, dude, the cell phone bill might be $20 to $50 a month. A room in a flophouse might be $400 to $600 a month. It's very easy to be able to afford a cell phone and not a place to live! And that cell phone might be keeping you informed on where day work is available, which shelter has rooms for the night, or when a relative might meet you to give you food or money. 

 

:iagree: Back when dh was unemployed, I once had a bill collector for the hospital scream at me for that exact thing- how dare we pay for a phone, but not pay all of our medical bills?  Um, probably because paying $27 a month for our one cell phone was the only way dh would be able to get calls for potential jobs.  I swear, some people just don't think.  

[Mergath]

As for the op, I do think that most Americans are a bit spoiled and have more of a sense of entitlement than some other parts of the world when it comes to wants rather than needs.  I do not think that believing kids deserve a solid education places one into the spoiled and entitled category.

[swellmomma]

Hmm.  I wouldn't call that wimpy, either.  

 

But what I'm wishing to discuss is that many of us consider a basic education, a simple low-paying job, and humble housing to be signs of failure.  

 

When it comes to the other thread I agree the issue of parents withholding an education is terrible, but what stood out to me was the attitude that working a low-paying job wasn't good enough and if someone said they were doing so they must be lying.  The fact is even when I attended college it was for a job in a low paying sector.  I don't think that attitude is limited to Americans, I hear it all the time from my own family, my sister and bother are considered successful because they have lots of money, fancy house (or in the case of my brother 2 houses), can take trips, new car ever couple years etc.  I on the other hand have been flat out told I have failed to reach my potential because I have opted for the low paying jobs, simple lifestyle (IE: no trips, no new cars, small older home, low tech etc).  The fact that I have opted to stay home and raise my kids/homeschool them and have the lowing income lifestyle is a failure in their eyes.  My brother and sil don't have kids yet, they are both 30 but waiting at least another 5 years because they don't think they have enough yet to start a family, sister and bil have had nephew in daycare since he was 6 months old so they could work fulltime.  We get paid maternity leave here for 1 year but sister gave it up and went back to work 6 months early because they wanted more.  They custom built a $750K home and are now looking at selling it and building a million dollar one in a different community to be closer to a different school, have brand new cars, the RV, take multiple trips etc.  That is their perogative, but I hate that they feel they can look down their noses at me and call me a failure because I live in a tiny  house built in 1930, have an old station wagon, don't have weekend trips to vegas just to go to the oulet stores, have a purse from goodwill rather than coach, etc.  I opted to work a low paying job becuse I can work it around my homeschooling schedule not because I am stupid, or a failure, but because I opted for a different way of life.

 

It is similar to when we had the SAHM thread, there seems to be a common thought in the general public that someone who chooses to be a SAHM is failing to live up to her potential, or is taking the easy path etc.  That being "only" a SAHM is less than being that working woman.  The same thing happens when it comes to low paying jobs, you are "only" the cook in a diner, or "only" the daycare worker, or the janitor, or the waitress, or the cashier or whatever else.  Funny thing is, without those people willing to do those jobs our economy would hit a stand still.  Without those workers running the stores, movie theatres, restaurants etc there would be no place for those with money to spend it.  Without people taking those low paying factory jobs there would be no product to distribute in the first place.  Without those people taking low paying jobs in daycare centers there would be no place to safely send the children so the higher paying workers could go to work.  There is no point in looking down their noses as if those in low paying jobs are failures, because without them there would be no need for white collar workers.  We need the blue collar workers more to keep the economy afloat.  I don't call opting to be a blue collar worker, to be a failure.  The only failure I would see is opting to sit on your butt and do nothing at all.  There is never failure in someone working a low paying job because it means they are working.  WHether to support themselves or their families it doesn't matter, being a hard worker is never a failure.  And I wish that more people who have focused so much on the importance of a degree and white collar profession saw that.

[Mergath]

When it comes to the other thread I agree the issue of parents withholding an education is terrible, but what stood out to me was the attitude that working a low-paying job wasn't good enough and if someone said they were doing so they must be lying.  

 

I think there's a difference between low-paying and minimum wage, though.  It's quite possible to make a decent living in a low-paying job, but extremely difficult if you're making minimum wage.

[swellmomma]

I would not use the term wimp, I would use uninformed or uneducated.  Most Americans have not traveled abroad to truly poor countries and therefore have no idea how truly fortunate they are.  When we deliver gifts for Angel Tree or something similar ministry, I am always struck at how the homes always have cable/satellite, game systems, large wall mounted flat screen TVs etc.  Things that my family does not own.  These families apply for government and church help, but spend large amounts of money on entertainment.  They also complain bitterly about being poor, but truly don't know what poor is.

I know people that only purposely work 20-30 hours a week and complain that they don't make enough to own a home-- yet refuse to work more. 

 

 I think that a very large portion of Americans have an entitlement attitude. 

 

When it comes to that sort of thing you never know where they got something.  When we had out Wii it was given to us by the mormon missionaries that were coming by helping us.  When ds got his xbox it was from his father.  The same father who did not pay child support for 6 years, and never saw them or gave gifts for 10 years.  The first gift he ever gave my ds was an xbox.  3 of the kids have DSi's 1 got it as a gift, the other 2 worked, earned their own money and bought them themselves.  The list goes on, so yeah we get help at christmas time for example, and it may look like we are throwing money around on extras but that is not the case.  I have never bought any of the gaming systems etc in the house.  We don't have cable or satellite, no cell phones, no ipads.  I have a 7 year old desktop I bought when I got the 1 time back pay for ds15s disability.  DD14 got a laptop this xmas from her dad, ds15 got a desktop 2 years ago from his dad.  So we have multiple computers, and yet I only paid for 1 years ago, and I paid $300 2 summers ago to add more memory etc to make it run better/faster.  So yeah I do complain at times about being poor at times, struggling to make sure bills are paid, food is on the table and hoping the leak in the washing machine can hold on for another month when I can save enough for the repair man to be called (dealing with that one right now).  But the kids having their tech toys doesn't change that.  You have no idea where those families got their items, or if they saved all year to get a door crasher special on black friday or boxing day etc.  I know one family that did that, they saved for 2 years and then got a big flat screen tv on boxing day when it was on sale.  They are still poor, the daily struggle is still there but they have this one fancy tech item.  Saving for 2 years to earn whatever it was the tv cost on sale would not have been enough to get them out of being poor.  But now they can sit together as a family and watch movies and think "I did that, I saved up enough".  The same way I look at the apple sauce I made and canned this fall and think "I did that!", there is some pride in that that, and I don't think they should feel badly about saving up for a special tech item just because they are poor incase the person coming by to help them at xmas judges them harshly.

[swellmomma]

I think there's a difference between low-paying and minimum wage, though.  It's quite possible to make a decent living in a low-paying job, but extremely difficult if you're making minimum wage.

 

But no one said it was a decent living on minimum wage, all I said was that it can be done.  NEver once did I say it was a decent wage, or that life was suddenly easy breezy.  Just that working minimum wage is not the end of the world, oh my goodness we will be homeless now, either.  I never said I never rob peter to pay paul, my bills are a juggling act every month but nothing is getting turned off, the mortgage is always paid, and food is purchased.  I never said it was grade A wonderful food.  Carb heavy, lacking in protien is not fun, but it is not the end of the world either, at least bellies are full and kids aren't going to bed hungry.  There is no doubt it is extremely difficult but that doesn't mean someone living it is not telling the truth either. The funny thing with that thread is I have a high school diploma, I attended college, I had the decent education and yet I support my family on minimum wage. That doesn't make me a failure.  And frankly if my kids were doing all they could do to support their families even if it meant working minimum wage I would be one proud momma, I would be just as proud of that one as I would be if another one of them became a world class surgeon.  Personally, and this comes into play in how I raise and educate my kids, work ethic is more important than academic credentials imo

[KungFuPanda]

Is anyone else wondering what they recycle in Europe that we can't recycle here?

[mommymilkies]

But no one said it was a decent living on minimum wage, all I said was that it can be done.  NEver once did I say it was a decent wage, or that life was suddenly easy breezy.  Just that working minimum wage is not the end of the world, oh my goodness we will be homeless now, either.  I never said I never rob peter to pay paul, my bills are a juggling act every month but nothing is getting turned off, the mortgage is always paid, and food is purchased.  I never said it was grade A wonderful food.  Carb heavy, lacking in protien is not fun, but it is not the end of the world either, at least bellies are full and kids aren't going to bed hungry.  There is no doubt it is extremely difficult but that doesn't mean someone living it is not telling the truth either. The funny thing with that thread is I have a high school diploma, I attended college, I had the decent education and yet I support my family on minimum wage. That doesn't make me a failure.  And frankly if my kids were doing all they could do to support their families even if it meant working minimum wage I would be one proud momma, I would be just as proud of that one as I would be if another one of them became a world class surgeon.  Personally, and this comes into play in how I raise and educate my kids, work ethic is more important than academic credentials imo

I certainly hope nobody is saying it makes you a failure.  I've btdt from living in my car, to close to minimum wage crap jobs, to being a SAHM and living paycheck to paycheck, but I do think that people deserve better.  Better wages.  Better benefits.  I know many immensely responsible and intelligent college grads who work min wage jobs because that's all that they can find.  It's sad.  Something needs done about it.  That doesn't mean I'm insulting you, but the system that creates these situations.  Does that makes sense? I know you're in Canada, so things are probably a bit different there, too.  There is really no social net to catch you when you're in many areas here.  IMHO, with our advanced technology, the immense wealth of our nations, and everything we have, there is no excuse for the levels of poverty and hunger that we see.  It's not being wimpy to want more for you or your children.  As for Americans being upset if their kids don't go to college and get top paying jobs, that is SO not specific to America.  A large portion of dh's college students (STEM professor) are int'l students and they face a crazy amount of family pressure to do the best and be the best with zero excuses.  

[mommymilkies]

Is anyone else wondering what they recycle in Europe that we can't recycle here?

I can't even recycle glass here.  It's nuts!

[Catherine]

Without having read many responses, I'll put in my quick 2 cents: providing a "basic" education is not bad per se, but it simply limits the potential choices for a child. No, it's not terrible to lead a simple life, with a low income. However, by providing nothing more than the basics of an education, parents are de facto choosing this for their child (I know there will be exceptions, but I'm speaking in generalities). Of course, there are those who explicitly want this for their daughters, and while that is certainly their choice, it's wrong and IMO likely to cause resentment once the kid grows up and realizes what her parents have chosen for her, if she decides that's not what she wants.

 

I would love to know of organizations that are working to assist these young women-I'd love to be a part of helping them.

 

Having parents limit your choices is the crux of the matter, when you are too young to make choices yourself.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I can't even recycle glass here.  It's nuts!

But all of that is so different from state to state and even county to county.  In our area it depends on what garbage company is contracted for the area.  Some have more recycling available than others.  

[mommymilkies]

But all of that is so different from state to state and even county to county.  In our area it depends on what garbage company is contracted for the area.  Some have more recycling available than others.  

I never said it wasn't.  Just that it's crazy that I can't recycle the one thing that I've always seen recycled everywhere since I was a child!   :lol:

[Jean in Newcastle]

The thing with threads like this is that I don't interact (other than superficially) with generalized Americans (or whatever other nationality depending on where I am in the world).  I interact with individuals.  Those individuals that I know well are hard working people who value education, family values and God.  (I can say that for people I know in Asia, Africa, South America and Europe too, btw).  How those values influence their day-to-day life is influenced by their environment but it doesn't change their values.  Now I probably am drawn to people with certain values because those are the values that I admire, but that is my experience.  

[Jane in NC]

No, college is not the goal around here. Most people want their children to have a state or local gov't job with bennies such as a pensioned retirement after 25 yrs, or to be in the construction industry w/their own business. The National Guard is doing well amongst recent high school grads; apparently there are some specialities where a teen can make $60k/annual plus another $20 in bonuses.  The police and fire also start out very high, so many wait for a job to open there. If they are going to do college, it will be night school, employer reimbursed or it wiill be CC while they wait for their gov't job opening.

 

This is interesting. Around here police need some sort of CC degree at a minimum--and the jobs do not pay well.  Even people in the construction business attend community college for certifications.

 

Around here, people want to see their kids gainfully employed. Frankly I don't think many care how that end is achieved--through college or not.  A woman I know was complaining about her nephew who works in the local coffee shop for a bit above minimum, no insurance or retirement benefit.  She felt that college would perhaps open some doors for him.  This is the sort of concern I hear when a young adult is in what appears to be a dead end kind of job.

 

We know several young adults who have received CC training for work in lab or medical related fields.  Having this sort of certification (and no debt) is viewed as the smart thing to do, especially for kids who are not necessarily academically inclined.

 

Parents who are professionals and/or those who attended college seem more interested in having their kids follow that path. But most are just relieved when their kids have some sort of plan for their future. It may not be the plan that had intended for their kids, but at least it is some sort of plan...

[Jean in Newcastle]

I never said it wasn't.  Just that it's crazy that I can't recycle the one thing that I've always seen recycled everywhere since I was a child!   :lol:

Not contradicting you.  Just piggy-backing onto what you said.  

[mommymilkies]

Not contradicting you.  Just piggy-backing onto what you said.  

No offense taken.  I'm hyped up on sugar to stay awake through lesson planning, so I have a feeling I'm very rambling and unclear at the moment. ;)

[Catwoman]

Having goods, luxuries (small or large), and opportunity is not a character trait and does not determine how wimpy or spoiled you are.  How you respond to either the prosperity you have or the poverty you have can be looked at in moral terms.  So the whole premise of this thread is off, I think, by trying to make moral or character judgments based on externals.

 

In all 1st world countries (including but not exclusively the United States) we tend to have more goods, luxuries and opportunity than someone in a 3rd world country.  The people I know who have immigrated here from 3rd world countries do not aspire to keep things at the level that they left.  They may (and do) have a tougher row to hoe than some others but they still have more goods, luxuries and opportunity than where they came from.  Some of these people are people with fine character, some are not.  

 

I know people of all nationalities who are quite wealthy.  Some of these people are people with fine character, some are not.  And yes, obviously they have more goods, luxuries and opportunity than others - or at least the option to have more goods and luxuries.  Some have very unassuming lifestyles and some don't.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

I find it annoying that threads like this always seem to turn into a competition. Who is the better recycler? Who doesn't "waste" their money on things like iPhones? And then there is usually the competition over who is more content living with less, because anyone who values material possessions is clearly a shallow and inferior person. :rolleyes:

 

Really, it's getting tiresome to watch people trashing each other's lifestyles. As Jean said so well, I don't think we should be casting moral or character judgments based on externals.

[Catwoman]

Well. OP here.

 

 

I wouldn't use the word "wimp" again (I'd probably choose "spoiled" or "entitled" or "snobs"). The word seems to have distracted from my main question. My mistake.

If anything, I think "spoiled," "entitled," and "snobs" are even more offensive terms.

 

I'm really not sure what you're trying to prove here, but you seem to be doing a lot of name-calling.

[Mrs Mungo]

Well. OP here.

I still say that many (most) Americans see a modest income and basic education as failure. They think it's tragic or heartbreaking or shameful to have to work hard to maintain a simple lifestyle. I think that's a shame.

 

 

I just don't find that to be true. My dad worked a blue collar job while his unmarried, childless brothers went on to be lawyers and engineers (his own father had a white collar job). My grandmother did not consider my dad less "successful" and even told us that we should never see it that way.

 

Hmm. I don't seem to have articulated my question well at all. Again, I think the wording in the thread title is a major distraction and my own mistake.

 

Perhaps it is just here in my PNW neighborhood. But, most people I know would be very upset and embarrassed if their children never attended college and grew up to work a low-paying job.

 

Does that attitude not exist elsewhere in the USA?

I think it does exist elsewhere, but in pockets. The Seattle area is heavily dominated by the tech industry. Being employed in that industry requires a certain education and is currently paying quite a lot of money to its employees. I am from Oklahoma. I grew up as the oil bust was hitting. There were lots of engineers who wound up working for McDonald's for a time before going back to school, incurring debt and getting a job in a different engineering field or a different field altogether.

 

The cost/benefit pendulum of college is swinging.

 

I worked my way through college without incurring debt. My college was around $1,000/semester. The same school is now around $5,000/semester, but wages have not increased at the same rate. This means it is impossible to simply work your way through at a minimum wage job.

 

Wages of all but the top tier of managers and executives have not gone up that much (*except* in the tech field). Would you rather take on a ton of debt to be able to get a mortgage for a big house and live in financial dread (while also shouldering a ton of responsibilities that cause you stress and ulcers) or have a job where you leave most of your worries behind at the end of your day, have a smaller house that is paid off, etc?

 

I know LOTS of people who in no way consider the latter to be failure. I think if you don't know those people, then you are the one who is insulated.

 

Eta: I agree that people are mostly concerned when young people are working jobs without hope of advancement or benefits.

[unsinkable]

If anything, I think "spoiled," "entitled," and "snobs" are even more offensive terms.

 

I'm really not sure what you're trying to prove here, but you seem to be doing a lot of name-calling.

"You forgot ugly, lazy, and disrespectful."

 

:lol:

[unsinkable]

and fat

Haha...I was quoting John Bender for the Breakfast Club.

[unsinkable]

oh yeah. It's been awhile since I've watched that. I can totally hear it in my head now.

Yeah, say it in the deep tough boy voice!

[Elfknitter.#]

"You forgot ugly, lazy, and disrespectful."

 

:lol:

 

Suddenly I want a turkey pot pie.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Haha...I was quoting John Bender for the Breakfast Club.

Gee thanks. Now I've got scenes reaying in my head. Would that be an eyeworm instead of an earworm?

[LucyStoner]

Hmm. I don't seem to have articulated my question well at all. Again, I think the wording in the thread title is a major distraction and my own mistake.

 

Perhaps it is just here in my PNW neighborhood. But, most people I know would be very upset and embarrassed if their children never attended college and grew up to work a low-paying job.

 

Does that attitude not exist elsewhere in the USA?

Maybe it is who you associate with. I am in the PNW as well, have been most of my life, and don't see this very much at all. Most all of my friends have great educations and lots of career opportunities. Most are quite well off. Yet many of us are choosing to live simply and it is not at all uncommon for people to stress that they would be fine if their children chose to do technical or apprenticeship programs. Many note that the ROI is better for plumbing programs than many white collar jobs.

 

I have a friend who was accepted to every top engineering program in the country. He ended up dropping out and working as a carpenter and electrician in the local arts scene. No one I know looks down on him or his choices. He has a lot of free time and married a career minded woman.

 

Maybe it is generational. But I have friends older and younger than me who often discuss the need or not for college.

 

Many tech companies hire people based on skill, not education. My brother's husband never stepped into a college classroom. He manages networks for a nationally known company. It's all about the certifications and track results. A close friend of mine is a highly paid project manager. He has a BA in English from a no-name college.

 

If my science geek son becomes an electrician that is great. But I don't want him to have to make that choice because he didn't have the prep to be able to choose a path towards a doctorate in electrical engineering. Does that make sense?

[creekland]

 

I find it annoying that threads like this always seem to turn into a competition. Who is the better recycler? Who doesn't "waste" their money on things like iPhones? And then there is usually the competition over who is more content living with less, because anyone who values material possessions is clearly a shallow and inferior person. :rolleyes:

 

Really, it's getting tiresome to watch people trashing each other's lifestyles. As Jean said so well, I don't think we should be casting moral or character judgments based on externals.

 

And this relates exactly why I like my area and our circle of friends.  I can live the way I want to and raise my kids with the expectations I want and still be peers with someone who chooses differently - many peers - many differences - and all still getting along just fine.

 

I actually think that happens a bit here on the Hive too.  ;)

[LucyStoner]

I do find that people who have these things think YOU are not working hard enough if you do not have these things. My sister easily forgets that she doesn't make that much money, but her husband does so she lives very comfortably and seems to think that my daughter and I just don't work hard enough or we would be in her same position. Her husband is the one who works hard and makes most of their money. It isn't just my sister who is this way either. I have come across other people who are the same way.

That's not how my marriage works. When I worked FT and made a big educational goal, my husband was invested in my sucess by all his support and work at home. Now I am all Peggy Q. Homemaker and he's able to work so hard in both school and work because I work hard at home and support him by all I do here. In healthy marriages, spouses are stakeholders in each other's sucess.

 

I do agree with you that having stuff is not a sign of hard work. Often it is just a sign of debt after all, lol. I don't work hard for stuff anyways. I work hard for people.

[Mrs Mungo]

If my science geek son becomes an electrician that is great. But I don't want him to have to make that choice because he didn't have the prep to be able to choose a path towards a doctorate in electrical engineering. Does that make sense?

Right. This is why the thread isn't working for me as a spin-off from the other thread. I think it is wrong to intentionally limit your kids.

[LucyStoner]

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

I find it annoying that threads like this always seem to turn into a competition. Who is the better recycler? Who doesn't "waste" their money on things like iPhones? And then there is usually the competition over who is more content living with less, because anyone who values material possessions is clearly a shallow and inferior person. :rolleyes:

 

Really, it's getting tiresome to watch people trashing each other's lifestyles. As Jean said so well, I don't think we should be casting moral or character judgments based on externals.

I think this is, to a degree, reading subtext that may not be there. When someone says "I love my minivan" I don't take that to mean that not having a minivan is a bad thing. Similarly "I worked from age 12" doesn't mean "anyone who didn't work from age 12 is a lazy butt" and "I recycle because I live in fear of being spotted not recycling" doesn't mean "people who don't recycle are jackasses." Avoiding reading in a subtext is really helpful.

 

Also, it's so NOT a competition Cat. I really am the best Mrs. Bundy of them all. :p

[mom2scouts]

I can't even recycle glass here.  It's nuts!

 

What? My community has been recycling glass since the 1970's!  We can recycle all plastics (1 to 7), all kinds of metal, paper including wrapping paper and paperboard, cardboard, and glass.  We also have plenty of places to donate used clothing, housewares, and toys, and even construction materials.  Our leaves, branches and Christmas trees are used by the city for compost. We use compost in our garden.  With seven family members, we never put out more than one garbage can.