Lack of perspective (a disjointed vent)

[Carrie12345]

Sometimes I feel like I have very spoiled children. Maybe I do in some ways, but I really think a lot of it is lack of perspective.

 

The kids I'm homeschooling now (11, 10, and 6) have never been to school. They've been in a few loosey-goosey co-op type classes, play not-very-competetive sports, and have done a few activities that are monthly, weekly, or 1-time-deals for fun. Nothing that requires a great deal of responsibility.

 

Aside from school work, their responsibilities at home are straight forward. The girls alternate dish nights, take care of the cats, and take out recycling. They have to put their clean clothes away. Sometimes they're expected to help with general picking up, and they have to clean their room when it nears fire safety concerns. If they cook/bake, they must clean up after themselves. The 6yo (and 2yo) have to help pick up their room (which is more playroom than bedroom) and the 6yo collects the garbage cans from the road. Easy peasy, no?

 

They ALL moan about school work. Only 1 complains about it being difficult (and it's true that she struggles with some things, so I try to keep that in mind) but they all complain about it's simple existence.

 

Having read this board for years, I'd say we're right in the "average" zone for workload. It all ranges from "below grade level" to "above grade level", carefully selected for their abilities. And we have a loose weekly schedule so the only things they're doing daily are math and some form of writing.

 

I'm 99% confident in all of my home and work expectations of them, but I'm sick and tired of hearing the moans, the sighs, and the outright complaints.

 

They are dawdlers.

They will turn a 10 minute assignement into 45 minutes. One will interrupt a lesson repeatedly to use the bathroom, ask about Halloween, talk to her brother, recall a conversation from a week ago, and then try to be a general class clown. They'll stare into space and call it "thinking" even if they're doing a simple math fact problem. And those are the older two! And then they'll complain that school has taken too long.

Then they'll play in the sink, waste a bunch of dish soap, and take 2 hours to wash one little sink load of dishes.

And they'll say that they never get to do anything but school and chores and it isn't fair.

 

I keep trying to remind them that they could be nearly done by lunch time if they'd just quit the baloney, but it simply isn't sinking in.

 

There would probably be less dawdling if I never gave them a second of independence, but I do have to divide myself between 3 students and a mischievious toddler. I can't sit on them all day.

 

It hasn't always been like this, mostly b/c I take a very relaxed, not-quite-unschooly approach in the early years with a gradual build up. The attitudes have built up in almost perfect correlation.

 

I feel like some time spent in school would open their eyes to how good they have it and how much control they actually have over their day, but that's way too drastic to prove a point. And, frankly, I think it's disrespectful of teachers and other students.

 

I'm not interested in being my kids' best friend. I don't feel they "owe" me anything for choosing to be this family-centric. But the negative attitude is wearing me down. I'm actually planning a weekend away and alone in order to focus on reframing MY attitude.

 

This *is* just a vent, but I'm certainly open to entertaining suggestions.

[fairfarmhand]

:bigear: :bigear: :bigear:  Ive had the same thoughts this week.

[unsinkable]

You could always try the technique to replicate school at home:

 

Up early, get dressed, eat breakfast then sit at the table for a few hours with school work. Bagged lunch, more hours of table sitting with school work. then when the school day ends, let them get up for a few minutes but sit back down for an hour or 2 of homework.

[Chris in VA]

It sounds to me like you are spot-on in handling things. How refreshing to hear you are taking time for yourself to focus on your attitude as a possible solution--it's rare, IME, to find people who see a situation that they feel requires some change, and start with their own changes. Bravo!

 

A small thing from your post caught my attention--

 

"There would probably be less dawdling if I never gave them a second of independence, but I do have to divide myself between 3 students and a mischievious toddler. I can't sit on them all day."

 

Maybe you could try this--for a couple of days, focus on one kid (perhaps the oldest?), and "sit on" that child all day, letting the others be more or less independent. Perhaps this would show that one child how different life could be if they didn't dawdle (because you will be right there and there won't.be.any.dawdling...LOL). Maybe then you could transfer your authority over to a timer to help that child keep on track. Sort of divide and conquer, work on one and others might follow, etc. If just one kid "gets it," it might help. Then you could either work on the next kiddo or maybe the modeling would help (Gosh, Susie has so much time to do what she wants! Maybe if I just did my work, I could have that time, too!). I do suspect, however, that, non-focus has become a habit, or may be a "worldview" IYKWIM. ;-) Or, perhaps there's something chemical/physical going on, which changes things, too. You'd have to determine that.

 

 

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I'm right there with you.

 

My biggest problem with my younger is compliance. He just will not do it if he doesn't want to.

 

If he complied better, I'd give him a week of literally only school and chores. Unfortunately this is nearly impossible with him.

[Tess in the Burbs]

well the moaning got bad with ds this week.  He refused to do the work.  Legally he has to do school....so he went to rake leaves for an hour and then come do school.  After being outside in the cold for an hour he more agreeable to school work :-)

[Ravin]

The policy with my DD is, if she whines, complains, starts to cry, changes the subject too much, etc., she goes to time out in her room.

 

I like the idea of a chore. I might start implementing that one.

[goldberry]

Since DD hit high school, the complaining has been NON STOP. She has no idea the workload of the kids in public school, and I have had exactly the same thoughts as you. Her friends have to be at school at 7:45 and come home to AT LEAST 1-2 hours of homework. DD starts at 9 and complains when she has to work until 3.

 

I am SO TIRED of it.

[Twinmom]

I could have written the original post this morning, too. Hugs!

[J-rap]

In answer to part of your question, I don't think you're asking them to do too much, I think it sounds just right!

 

I'd try and help them stay focused, even if it meant taking turns sitting next to them (even if you're working on something else).  One of mine was a dawdler and I just kind of let it go, thinking she'd figure it out on her own eventually.  :)  Instead, I think it has hurt her, and now it's become a habit that will be harder to break.  I believe she CAN break it, and she is definitely improving, but it's a lot harder for her to focus on a task and just get it done here and now.  I think if I had just spent more time walking her through her day, really keeping her on task, she'd have developed better skills at this.  For my others, it came more naturally, for whatever reason. 

 

Can you set time deadlines, or put work in a certain order (difficult ones first?)?  Or say that such and such subjects need to be done before lunch, and then they'll work harder to get them done since they're hungry?  I know it's difficult to be present with all of the children when you have toddlers!  I guess I'm not really offering any creative suggestions, I just wish I had thought of some myself.  :)

[Dashka]

I'm shameless... I would totally bribe them. The day before/morning of (whichever time they are most agreeable), I would let them know my plan. If they will do one day where they do not dawdle, then they can have/do (insert special thing here). Stress that it is one day, and plan for whatever reward you have to be given that night. Try to avoid making the reward a day off of school. The idea is that after they've seen how marvellously quickly they can be done, they will only need a gentle reminder the next day to get them going, if any..

 

Source of knowledge: I'm going on speculation here, but I'm sure if my husband bribed me with pizza and Slushies to get this house cleaned, I'm sure I would discover how quickly chores could be done. Thus, my mind would be free from thinking that it was impossible to clean certain things in certain amounts of time and the house would be more likely to be clean on subsequent days :D

[LucyStoner]

We have a daily scoring system. Everyday we give ourselves a score from 1-6, with 1 and 6 being, respectively, so awful and so awesome they are nearly inconceivable/unreachable. The score isn't a grade for the work, it is a metric for the whole day. How well school, chores, appointments, social and fun stuff went. 4 is a solid good but not best day where all schoolwork was done and at leas some fun was had. For keeping our average above 4 for the week, the whole month and for the quarter there is a list of rewards to choose from. For the week these are small, like a family movie night (at home) or a special, inexpensive outing. For the month they are larger- $20 is a "fun jar", a sleepover movie night with a friend or a trip to the zoo. For the quarter, larger still, like a weekend camping trip or a Lego credit. We are very honest and self aware about the score and don't always get 4 or 5. But when things look like they may be going sideways we take stock and can easily make corrections. I might say "hey, what score are you earning right now? Yeah, is a 2 what we want for the day? We better step it up if we want to get to a 4!"

 

It isn't as complicated as it sounds, it puts the responsibility on everyone and it stays focused on how fun is often linked to productivity. We have the scale and the bar for each number with examples posted on the wall, a long with a list of the reward choices for weekly, monthly, quarterly and yearly. We've been doing it not yet a year but it's made a huge difference.

[LucyStoner]

2x post.

[celticmom]

My dd does Kumon which is timed. She is a major dawdler so if her dawdling gets unreasonable I give consequences such as restriction. When I say unreasonable I mean work that she has done before that she takes 3-4c times as long as she should to complete. For example, if she has work that should take 20 minutes and it takes her over an hour she is probably in trouble. When she becomes too extreme with her dawdling in other areas I threaten to bring the timer out. I have given her a deadline for eating in a restuarant when things were getting ridiculous and we wanted to catch a movie afterwards.

[nmoira]

I gave DD the Elder the Tiger Mom book.

 

She's been quiet about school lately.  :tongue_smilie:

[TeacherZee]

If it makes you feel any better, I have several classes in the high school where every single student is like that. Nothing is fun. Everything is boring. School work sucks. And if they can make a one class assignment last four lessons the better. It. drives. me. bonkers.

[Allearia]

We have a daily scoring system. Everyday we give ourselves a score from 1-6, with 1 and 6 being, respectively, so awful and so awesome they are nearly inconceivable/unreachable. The score isn't a grade for the work, it is a metric for the whole day. How well school, chores, appointments, social and fun stuff went. 4 is a solid good but not best day where all schoolwork was done and at leas some fun was had. For keeping our average above 4 for the week, the whole month and for the quarter there is a list of rewards to choose from. For the week these are small, like a family movie night (at home) or a special, inexpensive outing. For the month they are larger- $20 is a "fun jar", a sleepover movie night with a friend or a trip to the zoo. For the quarter, larger still, like a weekend camping trip or a Lego credit. We are very honest and self aware about the score and don't always get 4 or 5. But when things look like they may be going sideways we take stock and can easily make corrections. I might say "hey, what score are you earning right now? Yeah, is a 2 what we want for the day? We better step it up if we want to get to a 4!"

 

It isn't as complicated as it sounds, it puts the responsibility on everyone and it stays focused on how fun is often linked to productivity. We have the scale and the bar for each number with examples posted on the wall, a long with a list of the reward choices for weekly, monthly, quarterly and yearly. We've been doing it not yet a year but it's made a huge difference.

I love this so much, I think I'll steal it!

[sassenach]

We have a daily scoring system. Everyday we give ourselves a score from 1-6, with 1 and 6 being, respectively, so awful and so awesome they are nearly inconceivable/unreachable. The score isn't a grade for the work, it is a metric for the whole day. How well school, chores, appointments, social and fun stuff went. 4 is a solid good but not best day where all schoolwork was done and at leas some fun was had. For keeping our average above 4 for the week, the whole month and for the quarter there is a list of rewards to choose from. For the week these are small, like a family movie night (at home) or a special, inexpensive outing. For the month they are larger- $20 is a "fun jar", a sleepover movie night with a friend or a trip to the zoo. For the quarter, larger still, like a weekend camping trip or a Lego credit. We are very honest and self aware about the score and don't always get 4 or 5. But when things look like they may be going sideways we take stock and can easily make corrections. I might say "hey, what score are you earning right now? Yeah, is a 2 what we want for the day? We better step it up if we want to get to a 4!"

 

It isn't as complicated as it sounds, it puts the responsibility on everyone and it stays focused on how fun is often linked to productivity. We have the scale and the bar for each number with examples posted on the wall, a long with a list of the reward choices for weekly, monthly, quarterly and yearly. We've been doing it not yet a year but it's made a huge difference.

Could you post a picture of your charts?  I'd love to see them.

 

I really like the idea of daily self evaluation.  The possibilities are pretty endless as far as focusing on certain character traits.

 

I think most kids tend to slip in the direction of complaining and foot dragging if there isn't something to bring them back.  For my kids, I sometimes have a boot camp week, which usually starts with a talking to from Dad, then involves me REALLY riding them and not letting anything slip.  

 

I've also found that ds really responds to me having a gentle, but honest conversation about how his attitude effects me and the rest of the house.  

[Carrie12345]

Thank you all for the suggestions and commiseration, lol! I was feeling so alone and pathetic this morning. I'm definitely going to think these things over.

 

The policy with my DD is, if she whines, complains, starts to cry, changes the subject too much, etc., she goes to time out in her room.

 

I like the idea of a chore. I might start implementing that one.

Unfortunately, the girls are so stubborn they'd see that one as winning. @@

But I did manage to get a fully scrubbed bathroom out of the 11yo yesterday. Sigh!

[Alte Veste Academy]

I would pay good money for a book or video that outlines/shows in painful, explicit detail what a day/week/month/year in the life of a PS student looks like. Seriously.

 

I also start out unschooly and ramp up slowly, but that proved to be a big mistake with my oldest DS. He needs schedules and order. Without that (in first grade or so, when we start in earnest), instead of feeling like school was this relaxed, natural way of life (how I saw it), he actually absorbed the (inadvertent) message that school was not important/essential enough to be scheduled. Recovering from that faulty assumption has been an ongoing challenge for him (and so then for the rest of us by default). So I continually attempt to walk a line, trying to keep school enjoyable and engaging but also mandatory and...uh...inescapable. But what kills me is that my kids have NO DOGGONE IDEA how very enjoyable and engaging their schoolwork is compared to that of PS kids. LOL

 

Reading some of the Tiger Mom book as a read-aloud isn't a bad idea... :lol:

 

One thing I have figured out. The less I talk, the better. It is best for me to emotionally disengage when they are being pills.

[albeto.]

It hasn't always been like this, mostly b/c I take a very relaxed, not-quite-unschooly approach in the early years with a gradual build up. The attitudes have built up in almost perfect correlation.

 

I wonder if your kids are getting mixed messages. As a point of reference, I don't have any academic expectations of my kids. None. There is no "school work," no assignments, no tests or drills or anything of the kind. I have precious little expectations of them that differs from any general expectations I would assume from anyone coming into my home. As I was transitioning to this paradigm from a classical homeschool day, I'd find the kind of resentment you're talking about, dawdling, distraction, complaining, etc. I decided to go full throttle unschooling for a number of reasons, but the mixed messages was a big consideration for me. I will admit these attitudes changed, both theirs and mine. They changed mostly because our relationship changed, and the idea of what was expected from whom changed with it. I don't mean to suggest that's the way for you to go, not at all, but only to suggest that your kids might be getting confused because they're incorporating two very different ideologies and they don't know when to apply one and suppress the other. That was my experience, anyway, which is why I thought of it for you, too. In any case, I hope you find what works for you and your kids.  :)

[LucyStoner]

Could you post a picture of your charts? I'd love to see them.

 

I really like the idea of daily self evaluation.

Sure. We have been out and about today but I will when we get home. Don't expect them to be too pretty design wise. My then-9 year old typed and formatted them. ;)

[happypamama]

Yep, activities and fun stuff do not happen if schoolwork is not done, and done with a pleasant attitude. But I also sometimes wish I could just take them to school for one day, so they would see how good they really have it. I mean, four or five hours of work sounds terrible -- but not when you compare it to six or seven plus homework!

[fraidycat]

November - My hotel room is booked and paid for for one night (with a couple other homeschool moms)! It is only one night, BUT, I also have 3 nights booked in December with DH (no kids) and another single night in December at a spa with my sister and SIL (although I think DD and DNiece are coming on that one).

 

AKA: I am right there with you. :grouphug: But, mine HAVE been to public school. And were little angels, always doing their best to please the teachers. I'm "just Mom", though, so they don't extend that same attitude of people-pleasing to me.

 

The original plan was a weekend ALONE for myself in November, but it turned into Mom's Night Out, so DH is trying to convince me to book a weekend for myself... I'm thinking Maybe March, for my birthday. :)

[DragonFaerie]

I don't have anything really helpful to offer as my DS would win the Olympic gold medal if dawdling and procrastinating was an event.  One thought I had for you was to point it out when they are dawdling and wasting time.  With DS, I will make a point of saying, "I hope you're enjoying your playtime!"  He'll usually respond that he's not playing to which I can explain that he's not working either and is thus wasting his playtime later.  Sometimes it works.  Sometimes, not so much.

[Catherine]

I take a pretty "schooly" approach, partly because I anticipate my son going to brick and mortar school in 2 years for HS. I've also seen his brother's adjustment issues there and I'm trying to avoid some of that. I'd also say my three all tend to ADD-meaning: rather oppositional, very slow workers, poor planning capacity, hate writing, lazy. I realize that's not a completely PC description of ADD, and believe me, living with it here I'm very aware of what it is, but I'm simply stating what their behavior *looks like* from the outside. Given that reality, I do as much as I possibly can to make their academic progress and work their problem, not mine.

 

Ds has a daily work list and a weekly work list. Not finishing is simply not an option. Given what I've observed with his elder sibs, I've drilled this fact into him since infancy-literally. He can choose how to schedule an given day, and in fact how to schedule his weekly work any way he wants, but it all must be finished satisfactorially, before we start again Monday morning. And he is not permitted privileges (playing with friends, screen time) on weekends until everything is done. In fact, that is not strictly true, but I strongly discourage him from these activities until he's made significant progress on any major work he's left until the weekend. Very, very gradually, I've observed that he's planning ahead a bit more, finishing things before the 11th hour, (but not always), and spreading work out over days, rather than starting it right before the deadline.

 

I figure by giving him some control, I'm helping him to understand that his education is very much his concern, not just mine. He's 12, BTW. But I identify with what you've described, Carrie, just because I had the exact same trouble with his brothers, much, much worse in fact when I started teaching my oldest when he was 12. It's very hard to gradually turn the control over to them, particularly if you're starting from a place of them being very resistant. I started with just withholding screen privileges until everything was done, to my standard, and refined my approach over time. ((hugs)) I've been there!

[DragonFaerie]

Ds has a daily work list and a weekly work list. Not finishing is simply not an option. Given what I've observed with his elder sibs, I've drilled this fact into him since infancy-literally. He can choose how to schedule an given day, and in fact how to schedule his weekly work any way he wants, but it all must be finished satisfactorially, before we start again Monday morning. And he is not permitted privileges (playing with friends, screen time) on weekends until everything is done. In fact, that is not strictly true, but I strongly discourage him from these activities until he's made significant progress on any major work he's left until the weekend. Very, very gradually, I've observed that he's planning ahead a bit more, finishing things before the 11th hour, (but not always), and spreading work out over days, rather than starting it right before the deadline.

 

I figure by giving him some control, I'm helping him to understand that his education is very much his concern, not just mine. He's 12, BTW. But I identify with what you've described, Carrie, just because I had the exact same trouble with his brothers, much, much worse in fact when I started teaching my oldest when he was 12. It's very hard to gradually turn the control over to them, particularly if you're starting from a place of them being very resistant. I started with just withholding screen privileges until everything was done, to my standard, and refined my approach over time. ((hugs)) I've been there!

 

So what DO you do if he's not finished by Sunday night/Monday morning?  I can tell DS that's not an option, but it doesn't stop it from happening.

[matrips]

So today, one of my children was done with all his weekly schoolwork and got to watch the entire Friday night movie ( our tradition/perk). One got to watch the final 1/3. And one missed the entire movie and still had another 1/2 hr of work. They all have the same amount of weekly work, but different attitudes and drives. I didn't yell, say I told you so or anything. Just quietly and patiently helped them with their schoolwork.

Curious to see how next week goes. :).

[Catherine]

So what DO you do if he's not finished by Sunday night/Monday morning?  I can tell DS that's not an option, but it doesn't stop it from happening.

Well, what I used to do is not permit any fun activities until all schoolwork was finished to my standard. I didn't make him sit at our table, but he wasn't allowed outside, no bike, no friends, no games. Once he had missed out on a few fun things, he did think ahead more. It started probably around 5th grade, the plan of giving him some assignments that were his job to finish, like a very short composition or grammar worksheet. Now, his free and assigned reading, Japanese, and grammar are all weekly assignments and he schedules them himself, with the knowledge that I am mostly not available to help him if there's something he might need my help to complete. I work on the weekends.

 

So right now, he is sometimes allowed friend time before all work is done, but only because I know he will not leave it all until Sunday night, or Monday morning! Hope this answers your question.

[LucyStoner]

See for my son and many other kids, riding his bike and running around are necessary to facilitate his day and help him self regulate better. Taking away his bike would be shooting myself in the foot if my goal is to help him be productive.

[Catherine]

See for my son and many other kids, riding his bike and running around are necessary to facilitate his day and help him self regulate better. Taking away his bike would be shooting myself in the foot if my goal is to help him be productive.

Yes, I agree-my son is the same and he has always been a pretty active kid. I don't want to sound too harsh-I don't keep him in a prison. He too recognizes that he craves that activity-that's partly what motivates him to finish these onerous academic tasks. He takes breaks-what has been nice about introducing a level of ownership to him is that he can now, to some extent, plan ahead so that he has time to play with friends, run around outdoors, and still finish his assignments with time to spare. I guess it was only initially that I made his free time activities contingent on catching up schoolwork. Fortunately, the idea (that doing this work is HIS job) stuck. Something else that helped us, looking back, was that when he clearly failed to finish something because he procrastinated, not because it was too hard or too time-consuming, I did not postpone other work-it was simply added on to his work of the next day.

 

I just know from transitioning 2 older kids to school, kids who have ADD tendencies, that I needed to gradually introduce them to the concept of deadlines, or they would not handle it well when the time came. I'm always amazed when I hear about unschoolers who transition easily to school. That could NEVER happen with my kids. I've come to see that for us, logic stage is an important time of developing independence in academic work. Hoping I get it right this time...