Katy Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 It's in another of his newsletters. He's not totally opposed to lace, just not around the neck line because that is sexy according to him. Insisting that women have long curled hair isn't sexy but lace around the collar is? I'm learning the best things on this board tonight. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaners Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 It's in another of his newsletters. He's not totally opposed to lace, just not around the neck line because that is sexy according to him. LOL. Lace around the collar is distinctly *unsexy* in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 It's in another of his newsletters. He's not totally opposed to lace, just not around the neck line because that is sexy according to him. Well, we know what turns him on :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livetoread Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I just finished the memoir, "I Fired God" written by a woman who left that subculture. It is devastating. Very sobering stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moxie Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 This stuff is so unreal. Cabbage Patch?!? Wtf?!? How do grown adults buy into this?? How does he have so many followers??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I just finished the memoir, "I Fired God" written by a woman who left that subculture. It is devastating. Very sobering stuff. Hadn't heard of that one. I'll have to order it sometime. Thank you for mentioning it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Well, we know what turns him on :/ Well, the guy does creepy exponentially. So, I worry very, very much about children raised under such teaching. I'm all for religious diversity and pluralism, but only to the point that it is not abusive to innocent children and I truly believe that much of what this guy espouses as "truth" is very chilling. I worry particularly about boys being raised to believe it's godly to so completely dominate their wives and daughters, and women raised to believe they have so little inherent self worth that they are sinning if their skirt doesn't touch their ankle, or they have lace on their collar, or they weren't perfect enough, or they are so fundamentally inferior that they should have no say in the family finances (another one of Gothard's teachings), or that their child acts out because the devil is in the stuffed animal, or the unknown sin of some previous ancestor is preventing her from conceiving, or..... YIKES! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livetoread Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Hadn't heard of that one. I'll have to order it sometime. Thank you for mentioning it. It's painful to read, just to warn you. She and her siblings endured major abuse which is always hard to read about, but the way it happened in the context of the community is the truly frightening part. The blaming, cover-ups, shaming, shunning, manipulation-it's awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 This stuff is so unreal. Cabbage Patch?!? Wtf?!? How do grown adults buy into this?? How does he have so many followers??? I think it's just like any other cult: it starts with a simple bible study, which seems reasonable and makes you feel good, and is dished out in tiny daily increments. And pretty soon you self-identify with it, and start feeling like it's added a great deal of good to your life, and you start feeling a little bit superior over who you used to be because you've tried so hard to change your behavior. And then little by little more and more silly little rules are added in (but they make a little bit of sense because they are accompanied by Bible verses twisted out of context, although you don't know enough about the bible to realize they are out of context), and you don't even notice. And pretty soon you are feeling really good about the way you live - you are sure, after all, that it IS the way God intends for you to live. And so the little things that don't make any sense either you overlook altogether or maybe you're not super skilled in critical thinking so it doesn't occur to you to question whether cabbage patch dolls are tiny little demonic idols or not. And the thing about the Bible is that it will make you psychologically healthier (even when it is being twisted and used against you), because it teaches you to let go of what you can't control and to work very hard on the things you can control. And like it or not, there is something people like about having very structured, if unfree, lives. It absolves them from the paradox and responsibility of choice that can make us unhappy and constantly second guess our choices. And a lot of studies show that both women and children are happier in families with traditional gender roles and where the father is the head of the household. When you accompany that with an eternal purpose and ministry mindset and the idea that whatever is going on in this world is temporary... Well, the structure that free people see as ridiculous could be very comforting if you're slowly worked into it. It all goes back to what I said the other day about the lifeboat theory... People love to achieve status and prove (even if only to ourselves) that we are better than everyone else. All so that if the society we're in decides there's too many people in the lifeboat, WE won't be the one thrown out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I made a flippant remark about the Cabbage Patch doll thing earlier, but it is true. CABBAGE PATCH DOLLS, people. When Gothard told me he wanted me to come work at headquarters he told me 2 things. Take out my other pair of earrings (I had two) and curl my hair. Curl. My. Hair. He is one of the creepiest people I have ever met. He is so weirdly invested in how young women look. How very Warren Jeffs of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFG Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I finally understand why they're so overprotective! Those Legos are hell to get apart once they're together. Sometimes we had to use a knife. That would not be pretty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I've tried to upload a picture, but it is too big. This thread reminded me I had a certificate from the ATI Indianapolis Training Center from 1995. The certificate is for Youth Counseling. I was SIXTEEN in 1995. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom-ninja. Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I wonder what it does to a person to go from first base to full-out tea party ALL in one day. That seems overwhelming. I can't imagine having my first kiss and wedding night all within a few hours! This is my thinking. I would not want *everything* happening in one night. Baby steps, people. That's weird to me. I'd consider it juvenile. I think you may just have solved it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 This stuff is so unreal. Cabbage Patch?!? Wtf?!? How do grown adults buy into this?? How does he have so many followers??? My understanding is that you need a pastor's reference just to attend the beginner course (Basic Seminar). You aren't allowed to see any materials from higher levels, either, so it's all very secretive. I've also read that he goes through the material very quickly, starting with the least legalistic, so you don't have time to mull it over and realize how crazy it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 My understanding is that you need a pastor's reference just to attend the beginner course (Basic Seminar). You aren't allowed to see any materials from higher levels, either, so it's all very secretive. I've also read that he goes through the material very quickly, starting with the least legalistic, so you don't have time to mull it over and realize how crazy it is. It's like a speed seminar. You fill in the blanks in your workbook without thinking much on them or you will miss something. You just will. Sometimes the churches get permission to hold the seminar at their church (video taped) and those interested sign up. Watch out for the churches that are ATI associated (they won't usually tell you...it's something you find out later on). I can name one church in Southern Illinois associated with ATI and I believe the one I went to in Guam was where I saw the Basic Seminar as a young girl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 It's like a speed seminar. You fill in the blanks in your workbook without thinking much on them or you will miss something. You just will. Sometimes the churches get permission to hold the seminar at their church (video taped) and those interested sign up. Watch out for the churches that are ATI associated (they won't usually tell you...it's something you find out later on). I can name one church in Southern Illinois associated with ATI and I believe the one I went to in Guam was where I saw the Basic Seminar as a young girl. I'm from Southern Illinois....I think my mom ended up doing the seminar and the ball started rolling because of one family in a church in Carbondale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I'm from Southern Illinois....I think my mom ended up doing the seminar and the ball started rolling because of one family in a church in Carbondale. A few counties away...St. Clair County. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 The seminars start very early in the morning, the breaks are super short, there is very little time to eat, and the meetings going into the evening past supper time in many venues. They range anywhere from 3 days minimum to 7. So, it's a blitz, and yes, people do struggle to find time to process what they have been told. A very effective method when people are too trusting. The upper level materials are scary and kept carefully guarded, but occasionally someone breaks free of the organization, realizes how abusive and frightening the teachings are, and will turn their upper level material over to some other trusted person and if you read that stuff, your brain explodes. Doug Phillips of Vision Forum has a body of beliefs that almost matches Gothard's. Between the two, they are quite a pair of spiritual abusers. I'd relate more about what I know from the man's own writings, but I think it would be very, very hard for this board to take and cause too much controversy. I think one of the bizarre things that I can talk about is the "Character Sketches" book. It is a collection of stories about animals that illustrate the character traits that children are supposed to develop. The book is strange. That is the only way I can think to put it, other than to point out that some of these animals really don't possess the traits discribed. Gothard is a Dominionist, same as Doug Phillips and Rushdoony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Wow. This has been a very enlightening discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 On the son's wedding episode, Jim Bob had him listen to some tapes that explained it. There was a mention of the couple "joining together like Legos". Helpful stuff! This has truly ruined Legos for me forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod's mum Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Roasted peanuts with their papery shells, still mostly on, harder shells off and lots of salt. So with the paper skins, peanuts and lots of salt....you need to keep drinking beer. (It's a tough job, but someone's got to do it.) Actually we generally go with chips for beer-o'clock. But not bar-beer-nuts, which carry the additional flavouring of patron's unwashed 'toilet' hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 First, let me say, I have no real like or dislike for the Duggars, so I'm not praising or bashing them. Anyhoo, instead of unpacking yet another box (I HATE MOVING), I decided to surf the web and clicked on a story about the Duggars. I don't know why, but I did. Their 20 year old daughter is being "courted" by an 18 year old. Again, no problem with that. All their texts (they live several hours apart) are done through her parents' phones and are monitored by them. Isn't that a bit strange for a 20 year old? Here's the full article: Duggar courtship Eh, unusual, but it is probably with her consent. Parents DO know a thing or two about what relationships will work, if kids will only listen. This girl obviously will. Aren't they cute as heck, as a couple? Their photo is at the top of the article. Courtship is goal-oriented, not casual like dating. I think it is a great idea, actually, but of course, would only work with willing kids. (I'm pretty sure I have independent kids like me who will do it all themselves). I mean, come on! If Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar approve of you, that's saying something. They KNOW kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom in High Heels Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 Wow. This has been a very enlightening discussion. It really has. I didn't know a lot of things that I've read here. I didn't know that the Duggars were Gothardite (to be honest, I didn't even know what a Gothrdite was), and I didn't realize that "quiverfull" was a religious lifestyle (for lack of a better word). Also, the whole Cabbage Patch kid thing? That's weird. Also, I didn't know what beer nuts were. :001_tt2: I'm also quite impressed that we've gotten this far into the thread and it hasn't dissolved into a bitch-fest or gotten totally silly. Don't get me wrong, I love when threads get silly, but only if they've gone into mudslinging territory. I appreciate everyone's fairly respectful responses. I've only ever had one thread go "hot" before, and this one is really hot. I feel special! Time to break out the fancy shoes and good wine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 The upper level materials are scary and kept carefully guarded, but occasionally someone breaks free of the organization, realizes how abusive and frightening the teachings are, and will turn their upper level material over to some other trusted person and if you read that stuff, your brain explodes. Doug Phillips of Vision Forum has a body of beliefs that almost matches Gothard's. Between the two, they are quite a pair of spiritual abusers. I'd relate more about what I know from the man's own writings, but I think it would be very, very hard for this board to take and cause too much controversy. Now I'm dying to know......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Michelle* Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Now I'm dying to know......... Same here. This is completely foreign to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Thank you to the many contributors to this thread. I had no idea. I am frequently disturbed that some families we know limit their options for their girls commenting that they will "just be wives" anyway. And then they are surprised when their girls rebel? Yet this seems like small stuff when compared to the Gothardite demands place on women as described in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkacademy Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I don't live the Duggar life or anything but I see nothing wrong with them at all. Their son and his family just moved away so they can obviously leave if they want too. I'm not trying to be rude but they don't have problems and I think that makes people jealous of them. I don't see them worrying how they will feed their kids. They are really good financially. Their kids are happy. Granted older kids could be faking it but little kids couldn't. They have a solid marriage problems other people have just don't seem to touch them. Again I don't have that life but they are good people who aren't hurting anyone. So what they are on TV. That don't mean they deserve to be torn apart. They have a lot of kids, who cares? Their kids are cared for and loved and they don't need help from the government. It seems a lot of the Duggar complaints are just sour grapes in my opinion. Their life works for them. What makes it any different than people wanting gay marriage? They are happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I just don't know what to do if you have read the thread and still don't know WHY people have concerns about their beliefs. Don't agree with those concerns, fine. But I think the "why" has been pretty thoroughly established in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Also, I didn't know what beer nuts were. :001_tt2: I'm also quite impressed that we've gotten this far into the thread and it hasn't dissolved into a bitch-fest or gotten totally silly. Don't get me wrong, I love when threads get silly, but only if they've gone into mudslinging territory. I appreciate everyone's fairly respectful responses. I've only ever had one thread go "hot" before, and this one is really hot. I feel special! Time to break out the fancy shoes and good wine! It turned out this thread wasn't the Full Moon Beer Nuts Banning Thread. Who woulda thunk it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahliarw Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 From watching the series, I believe the girls are not just using ATI for midwifery training. The MW that they were apprenticing under wore pants (so not ATI right there). And Jill mentioned that she has 3 1/2 years of training to go through, which does not seem like it would fit with the shorter ATI model. I have actually gotten the impression that the Duggars have been separating themselves more and more from Gothard, subtly. Anna definitely does not wear skirts to the ankle (just her knees covered) and such, which seems contrary to ATI from my knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I don't live the Duggar life or anything but I see nothing wrong with them at all. Their son and his family just moved away so they can obviously leave if they want too. I'm not trying to be rude but they don't have problems and I think that makes people jealous of them. I don't see them worrying how they will feed their kids. They are really good financially. Their kids are happy. Granted older kids could be faking it but little kids couldn't. They have a solid marriage problems other people have just don't seem to touch them. Again I don't have that life but they are good people who aren't hurting anyone. So what they are on TV. That don't mean they deserve to be torn apart. They have a lot of kids, who cares? Their kids are cared for and loved and they don't need help from the government. It seems a lot of the Duggar complaints are just sour grapes in my opinion. Their life works for them. What makes it any different than people wanting gay marriage? They are happy. Moving away does not remove them from observation or oversight, given that they are ATI. ATI is everywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 From watching the series, I believe the girls are not just using ATI for midwifery training. The MW that they were apprenticing under wore pants (so not ATI right there). And Jill mentioned that she has 3 1/2 years of training to go through, which does not seem like it would fit with the shorter ATI model. I have actually gotten the impression that the Duggars have been separating themselves more and more from Gothard, subtly. Anna definitely does not wear skirts to the ankle (just her knees covered) and such, which seems contrary to ATI from my knowledge. I know ATI families where women wear pants. Some families do pick and choose. I have gotten the impression that they publicly want to keep the Gothard thing out of the media, because of what is known about Gothard. Unless I hear them openly state that they have given up ATI, I will take this only as a PR thing, not genuine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom-ninja. Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Time to break out the fancy shoes and good wine! Now, I want to see *your* fancy shoes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom in High Heels Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 Now, I want to see *your* fancy shoes! Let's see...the 4" Via Spiga boots (stiletto!), the 3.5" Zebra pumps or the 3.5" leopard pumps? Those are all my faves, but I have plenty more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Let's see...the 4" Via Spiga boots (stiletto!), the 3.5" Zebra pumps or the 3.5" leopard pumps? Those are all my faves, but I have plenty more! You know what we should do? Have a thread where everyone posts a pic of their feet in their daily shoes and their fanciest shoes. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lea_lpz Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Even though I know many more people who insist their child should grow up to use birth control and have a career, I do not presume that every person who follows that model of their parents is oppressed into it and is being robbed of making their own choices. (Though I wager that is more common. I know many more parents who have been furious about their child not going to college or going only to 'waste' their degree by staying home and or having more than 2 kids.) Not everyone, myself included, agree with your opinions about child-rearing or what a supposedly healthy family should look like. This is my families setiments about me exactly :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lea_lpz Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Even though I know many more people who insist their child should grow up to use birth control and have a career, I do not presume that every person who follows that model of their parents is oppressed into it and is being robbed of making their own choices. (Though I wager that is more common. I know many more parents who have been furious about their child not going to college or going only to 'waste' their degree by staying home and or having more than 2. This is my families setiments about me exactly :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 You know what we should do? Have a thread where everyone posts a pic of their feet in their daily shoes and their fanciest shoes. :D I desperately want to do this. I have a couple shoes that might even impress Mom in High Heels! (Maybe.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I know ATI families where women wear pants. Some families do pick and choose. I have gotten the impression that they publicly want to keep the Gothard thing out of the media, because of what is known about Gothard. Unless I hear them openly state that they have given up ATI, I will take this only as a PR thing, not genuine. Yep. There are vows and pledges and covenants and whatnot. And they are still heavily involved with ATI families (some that I know) and you don't get to be best buds with ATI families unless you're an ATI family. Mostly. From what I understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I don't live the Duggar life or anything but I see nothing wrong with them at all. Their son and his family just moved away so they can obviously leave if they want too. I'm not trying to be rude but they don't have problems and I think that makes people jealous of them. I don't see them worrying how they will feed their kids. They are really good financially. Their kids are happy. Granted older kids could be faking it but little kids couldn't. They have a solid marriage problems other people have just don't seem to touch them. Again I don't have that life but they are good people who aren't hurting anyone. So what they are on TV. That don't mean they deserve to be torn apart. They have a lot of kids, who cares? Their kids are cared for and loved and they don't need help from the government. It seems a lot of the Duggar complaints are just sour grapes in my opinion. Their life works for them. What makes it any different than people wanting gay marriage? They are happy. I don't understand. Are there parents who arrange gay marriages for their children based upon the advice of some religious sect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom in High Heels Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 I don't understand. Are there parents who arrange gay marriages for their children based upon the advice of some religious sect? I'm not seeing the connection either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 I don't understand. Are there parents who arrange gay marriages for their children based upon the advice of some religious sect? I think she meant something like this: "Legalizing gay marriage doesn't infringe upon the rights of others and neither do the Duggar's beliefs." I don't agree with this belief, but thought I'd share what I think she meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 I think she meant something like this: "Legalizing gay marriage doesn't infringe upon the rights of others and neither do the Duggar's beliefs." I don't agree with this belief, but thought I'd share what I think she meant. Forcing a child into a marriage after years of controlling every waking moment of that child's life simply isn't equivalent to whether two adults should be able to freely enter into a legal contract for marriage regardless of their sex. I don't understand how she is drawing that parallel. The equivalency would be a religious sect arranging gay marriages for their children, which I'm guessing would not be taken with the same live and let live attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahliarw Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 It just occurred to me, that by letting Jill train as a MW, if she manages to avoid marrying in the meantime, she will have the tools to "leave" if she wants. Most girls wouldn't have a livelihood which makes leaving harder, she will. Interesting... Oh, and this is who she is apprenticing with: http://nwamidwife.com/1.html And while I agree some ATI women wear pants, I doubt they would on TV. I imagine Gothard would get his tighty whiteys in a wad about that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 I desperately want to do this. I have a couple shoes that might even impress Mom in High Heels! (Maybe.) I started a thread for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 I've always said that the Duggars can have as many children as they like. Ruling their daughters like that? Telling them no to higher education? That is frightening. Michelle and Bob have 19 offspring. Statistically, I can't see that they will all walk the same path as their parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 I've always said that the Duggars can have as many children as they like. Ruling their daughters? Telling them no to higher education? That is frightening. Michelle and Bob have 19 offspring. Statistically, I can't see that they will all walk the same path as their parents. Yeah, there's one (can't remember her name) who looks like she's just biding her time. I'm waiting for one of them to write a book. Not necessarily some scandalous tell-all; I don't think they have material for that. I'd like to read a more introspective look into their upbringing and family life, looking back from their forties or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 Yeah, there's one (can't remember her name) who looks like she's just biding her time. I haven't seen the show (but I did read one of their books when I attended a church full of Vision Forum lovers). Maybe you mean Jinger? There's a forum called FreeJinger.org about the Duggars, patriarchy, Vision Forum, Bill Gothard, and other extreme beliefs. The owners apparently felt Jinger is the Duggar most likely to leave, and so named the forum after her. BTW, if you are an easily offended Christian, avoid the FreeJinger forum because it is extremely snarky, at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 It just occurred to me, that by letting Jill train as a MW, if she manages to avoid marrying in the meantime, she will have the tools to "leave" if she wants. Most girls wouldn't have a livelihood which makes leaving harder, she will. Interesting... Oh, and this is who she is apprenticing with: http://nwamidwife.com/1.html And while I agree some ATI women wear pants, I doubt they would on TV. I imagine Gothard would get his tighty whiteys in a wad about that! Well, she's a CPM, that is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 While I do know who the Duggars are (mostly because of this forum) I have to ask: Am I the only one who has never seen even part of an episode of their show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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