S/O: Have your parents ever charged you room and board?

[Joanne]

 

ETA:  I may not have read the post of yours which you reference.  I was not replying to a post when I wrote my original one.  Maybe that explains your reaction, that you assumed I was.  I was thinking about the concept of adult children continuing (or returning) to live with there parents.  The concept prompted me to flip around my own situation.  Certainly, it would be ludicrous for me to want money from an elderly, frail father who would not be here unless we all, collectively (including him), wanted it to happen.  I can't speak for hypothetical situations, or for other people's lives; only for reality of my own life.  As for having a wealthy parent, that firmly falls into the realm of imagination!   :001_smile:    

 

 

I have imaginery wealthy parents, also!

 

My mom took in 2 of my Dad's relatives. I say "Mom" because although Dad was there, Mom did the work. We used some of their personal funds for their meds, etc, but never took additional.

 

Bless you for being able and willing to honor your Dad.

And let's not fight! :)

[Orthodox6]

I have imaginery wealthy parents, also!

 

My mom took in 2 of my Dad's relatives. I say "Mom" because although Dad was there, Mom did the work. We used some of their personal funds for their meds, etc, but never took additional.

 

Bless you for being able and willing to honor your Dad.

And let's not fight! :)

 

No interest in sparring over here, either!  I realized that I must have missed one of your earlier posts, which is why I sketched the "back story" of my own post.

 

:grouphug:  

 

(I deleted the line in which I expressed perplexity; however, you have immortalized it by quoting it.  Sorry!)

[Melissa in Australia]

Yes,

 I paid as soon as I had a job. I paid exactly 1/3 of whatever I earned each week. my job had flexible hours so some weeks I would only pay  a few dollars and other weeks it was more.

 

My children pay board once they have regular income. it is around $50 per fortnight. I buy everything the boys need as far as clothing , food, whatever.

 My oldest now lives at Uni residential. he pays $300 per fortnight just for his room at the uni (no food plan). when he comes home on holidays he doesn't pay anything here at all, we look after him.

 

[zoobie]

N/m

[Joanne]

No interest in sparring over here, either!  I realized that I must have missed one of your earlier posts, which is why I sketched the "back story" of my own post.

 

:grouphug:  

 

(I deleted the line in which I expressed perplexity; however, you have immortalized it by quoting it.  Sorry!)

 

 

Your perplexity has been deleted!

 

Doesn't that feel good? ;)

[abba12]

but the comparison is not quite accurate since the 3 y/o does not have any income - but the grandparent might have quite a nice pension or savings. Would that change your philosophy?

 

 

Most elderly, non-able bodied grandparents do not have a nice savings or pension. If they do, why are they moving in with me when they can have carers, a fully qualified nursing home, etc? Able bodied grandparents would prefer to live with me, but I can't see grandparents struggling with their health so severely actually choosing moving in with me as a preference. They would feel like a burden (even though they absolutely would not be, they would feel like it), they would be frustrated by my toddlers, and I can't offer the care they may need in that situation.

 

But lets say I was caring for a grandparent, who was not able to contribute to the home physically but had a good pension. Like I said, in my family, they would absolutely insist on paying if they had savings/a good pension. Why should we be paying for grandmas care while grandma has money for lots of luxuries/trips/etc? There is no way my grandmother would allow me to pay for her meals and toiletries while she buys herself luxuries. In fact it's a constant battle even now, when she doesn't live with me, to stop her from buying MY lunch when we go out (her logic is I am the younger one and need the money for my kids and she wants to treat her granddaughter and great grandaughters. My logic is, I know how low her pension is and that she NEEDS that money because she and grandad still live independently. She won't hear it. I usually manage to keep us breaking even by insisting on paying and refusing her money, but I never get to treat her, not for lack of trying.).

 

If they are not all there mentally, well that becomes a legal thing with powers of attorney and stuff, and there are high costs involved in caring full time for such a person, so yes, there would be an arrangement that involved money coming to me to, at the very least, pay for their care and medication, and probably some extra as a carer. I know someone caring for their father with Alzheimers, and it's a full time job, they would deserve to be compensated just a little. Unfortunately, due to complicated circumstances, he has no money, at all. I believe they are blessed to have, at least, free or low cost respite care. 

 

I have discussed long term care plans at length with my grandparents because, due to our family situation, I will almost certainly be responsible for their care in the end of their lives, and their funeral/estate arrangements. They are very mentally capable right now, and they would not hear of handling the financial side any other way. They do not have a large pension, but I know they would insist on giving me a large portion towards life expenses, keeping themselves enough for little luxuries, and they'd probably end up spending half of that on my daughters anyway, despite my protests!

 

It is two entirely, completely different cultures. Which isn't a problem. The only problem is when the two cultures clash within a single family. 

[regentrude]

Most elderly, non-able bodied grandparents do not have a nice savings or pension. If they do, why are they moving in with me when they can have carers, a fully qualified nursing home, etc? Able bodied grandparents would prefer to live with me, but I can't see grandparents struggling with their health so severely actually choosing moving in with me as a preference.

 

I was not talking about infirm old people who require nursing care. There is a big spectrum between not wanting to live on one's own and requiring a nursing home.

 

I come from a different perspective: my grandmother lived with us because ... well, just because that was how things were. She was old, but fit. My mom and dad had moved into HER apartment when they were newly married, and then when they moved into their house, grandma moved with them - it would have been unthinkable otherwise, because we were one family.

For an old person, being around younger family members is just nice - many would not want to be in a retirement home, but rather with their kids and grandkids. My grandma did. She was 70 when I was born and helped raise us, and lived until 93. She was a major influence in my life, and I am very sad that I can not give my children a similar experience.

 

When she was 68, my other grandmother took in her 88 year old mother, my great-grandmother, who was no longer able to live by herself in a rather primitive house in a village when her housemate had died. She did not require a nursing home; just carrying coal, firing a coal stove and using an outhouse were too hard for her. My great-grandmother lived another 8 years in loving company of her daughter. She would not have wanted a carer or a facility.

 

But about the money side: both my grandmother and great-grandmother have given from their resources freely and generously and contributed when possible. Because that is what we do in our family. But charging rent or demanding a specific payment would have been inconceivable.

I think for me it comes down to this difference. It is not about contributing per se; it is demanding and expecting the contribution that seems so strange to me.

[MinivanMom]

I moved out when I was 17 and still in high school.  I supported myself completely at that point.  I wasn't welcome to live with my mother whether I was paying rent or not.  My younger siblings were put out at 18, 16, and 18.  I was the first in my family to attend and graduate from college.  I was very fortunate to have a scholarship to pay tuition, and I worked to cover my living expenses.  I gravitated towards college classmates from similar backgrounds (first to attend college, attending on scholarship/financial aid, etc), so I never thought my situation was strange. 

 

It always surprises me that so many people have family in the background as a support for them in those late teen years.  It must be nice to know they are there even if they aren't currently supporting you financially or helping you out. 

[regentrude]

It always surprises me that so many people have family in the background as a support for them in those late teen years.  It must be nice to know they are there even if they aren't currently supporting you financially or helping you out. 

 

Yes, I agree that it is a very nice and comforting feeling of security. I can trust that even now, as an adult, I have parents who would do anything to support me and be there for me in a crisis. I think there may be cultural aspects; for all my friends back home it was like this. The concept of "putting out" an 18 year old is very alien to me, and not something anybody of my friends encountered (of course, some 18 year olds are dying to move away and be independent; my best friend moved to a different town at age 17, but not because her parent wanted her out.) All those of my college friends who were from our city and went to university there lived at home with their parents, several of them for many years even after they graduated.

My sister got pregnant as a senior in high school and was single mom of a severely disabled child. She lived at home with her child for five years while going to med school, and my parents supported her even after she moved out, until she was able to get paid employment. To us, that is the normal thing to do. And I want my children to know that they, too, have us to have their back, should they find themselves in difficulties.

 

ETA:  I just wanted to add that this "coddling" did not harm us. My sister, my friends, and I are all working, independent, productive members of society. None of us has adopted a lifestyle of relying on support, taking handouts, slacking.

[bolt.]

Didn't need to be said. Sorry.

[Joker]

Most elderly, non-able bodied grandparents do not have a nice savings or pension. If they do, why are they moving in with me when they can have carers, a fully qualified nursing home, etc? Able bodied grandparents would prefer to live with me, but I can't see grandparents struggling with their health so severely actually choosing moving in with me as a preference. They would feel like a burden (even though they absolutely would not be, they would feel like it), they would be frustrated by my toddlers, and I can't offer the care they may need in that situation.

 

 

 

No one in my family has ever been put into a nursing home - even when they needed extensive care. They have been taken in and cared for and sometimes that required outside nursing help, but never a nursing home. I don't think badly on those that choose that for their elderly/sick family, but it's just not something that has been (or will be) done in mine. If outside help was needed, their money was needed, but if no help was needed there was nothing asked or expected. I think family culture plays into this a great deal, so arguing what should be done or what one considers right is probably pointless.

 

[regentrude]

No one in my family has ever been put into a nursing home - even when they needed extensive care. They have been taken in and cared for and sometimes that required outside nursing help, but never a nursing home. I don't think badly on those that choose that for their elderly/sick family, but it's just not something that has been (or will be) done in mine.

 

I was of the same mind and culture for the longest time, but unfortunately, circumstances forced us to change our stance on this. For one thing, we had to move overseas to find work, so we are no longer even on the same continent as our old family members. Second, my MIL who has Multiple Sclerosis and Alzheimers does not just require some outside nursing help, but around the clock professional care. She stayed home with FIL as long as feasible, with a household help and nursing care visits twice a day and help from BIL and his wife, but at some point it simply was no longer possible. We contribute financially to pay for the nursing facility which is all we can do at this point, but it is difficult and leaves me with guilt.

I find being unable to be involved in the extended family, especially with aging parents, to be one of the hardest things about emigrating.

[ThisIsTheDay]

No. It's absolutely inconceivable in our culture. I'm in my 40s with 2 kids and I could go back for free even today. No one would even bring it up. Would I work and help out? Absolutely.

 

It's about being in a tribe. You just belong to it and you pitch in, but you're born in and nothing can change that. You're forever a part of it and always have people to help and support you.

 

I wish our culture were like that.

 

And then I consider my mil, and I think maybe I'm glad it's not.

 

:leaving:

 

[Serenade]

After grad school, for a while I was unemployed and lived at home.  I didn't pay any rent.  However, when I found a job, and we all decided I would continue living at home, I offered to pay a small amount each month in rent, and my parents accepted it.   Later on my mom told me she was hesitant to take that money, but she surely missed it when I moved out!

 

I will say, living with my parents in my late 20s was an interesting experience, and mostly a good one.  I was not happy to be there, but didn't have a lot of options at the time.  It took me a year to find a job, and then, after I found a job, I worked in my hometown for another year before moving on.  Anyway, I got to know my parents in a different way, and we often had fun together.  I got to know their friends, too (many different from when I was growing up), and it all worked out OK.  It is a time my mom and I think of fondly today  (my dad has since passed on). 

[Murphy101]

No one in my family has ever been put into a nursing home - even when they needed extensive care. They have been taken in and cared for and sometimes that required outside nursing help, but never a nursing home. I don't think badly on those that choose that for their elderly/sick family, but it's just not something that has been (or will be) done in mine. If outside help was needed, their money was needed, but if no help was needed there was nothing asked or expected. I think family culture plays into this a great deal, so arguing what should be done or what one considers right is probably pointless.

 

This is my dh and I too. His grandmother had bed ridden Alzheimer's for 7 years. She was given 24 hour care in her home with her husband of half a century next to her the entire time. Children, grandchildren, home nurse and respite care.

 

We would feel devastated to put a loved one in a nursing home unless we truly had no other choice.

 

That aside, I don't think one should have to be on hard times to move back in with mom and dad or for mom and dad to move in with adult kids. It can be beneficial to both in many was, financial just being one of them. If they get along and everyone finds it helpful, I see no problem with it and lots of good.

[Hannah]

I voted "they would charge", but thinking about it, that would have only applied if we'd chosen to move back in after studies and started earning (i.e. young adults where the alternative is to live independently). 

 

I moved out when I was 18 and If I had to move back in with my dad and stepmom now, it would be because of a massive crisis in my life - and at this point I cannot imagine what that would be.  They would never charge us or expect anything.  I live 1000 miles away from them, so would rely on other support and care structures I have here first. 

 

My dad would be most welcome to come and live with us if he ever needed or wanted to - and no way would I expect him to pay, but I think that his pride would compel him to contribute at least a token amount.  As I would do if I lived with him.       

 

 

 

 

[LucyStoner]

I was never charged room and board per se but before I moved out at 17 I was regularly paying for necessities for myself and my brother.  And helping with housing and other needs in a pinch.  We were really low income.  After age 12, I was working and paying for pretty much all clothing, school stuff, some food etc for me and my brother.  This was not because I was working or because my parents were charging me.  It was because I chose to work because I wanted to not go without those things.  For example, before I was 12 my shoes were frequently too small or broken.  After 12, it wasn't fancy but I always had sturdy, sufficient shoes and clothing.  

[LucyStoner]

I understand, but wouldn't one simply contribute in such a case anyway, without being "charged"?

Just like it is normal for us to support our parents-in-law financially because it is needed - that's just what family do.

 

Exactly.  I took my money and paid various bills that needed paying and bought various necessities like groceries and schoolbooks and clothes all of which my parents would have furnished if they could have but they never said to me "you need to pay us to live here or pay for your own food."  

[eloquacious]

I voted, "yes, but not until after school, etc" even though they never charged me... But that's because I never lived with them after college. My brother, who is ten years younger, is a different story.

[idnib]

I was of the same mind and culture for the longest time, but unfortunately, circumstances forced us to change our stance on this. For one thing, we had to move overseas to find work, so we are no longer even on the same continent as our old family members. Second, my MIL who has Multiple Sclerosis and Alzheimers does not just require some outside nursing help, but around the clock professional care. She stayed home with FIL as long as feasible, with a household help and nursing care visits twice a day and help from BIL and his wife, but at some point it simply was no longer possible. We contribute financially to pay for the nursing facility which is all we can do at this point, but it is difficult and leaves me with guilt.

I find being unable to be involved in the extended family, especially with aging parents, to be one of the hardest things about emigrating.

 

 

My parents are immigrants to the U.S. They also found this parental aspect very difficult but had the benefit of having a large family still in the old country. It made it so much easier for them to know their parents had round-the-clock help. It couldn't have been done without at least 5 core people pitching in on cooking, cleaning, bathing, taking different shifts, etc. while raising their own children and not working outside the home. Unless you have lots of extra people to help out, it's not feasible and you shouldn't feel guilty.

[TravelingChris]

Even in the US, elderly get Social Security.  If a parent is ill and at your home, I would expect for the child to take over the finances (to relieve stress and manage properly) and while first paying for medications and things specifically for the elderly parent, if anything was left over, I would expect it would go towards things like food, utilities, etc.  It isn't a matter of charging the elderly parent but rather managing money use wisely.   For one thing, I would want that money going to help the family who is taking care of that person, not the relative who maybe has shrugged off any responsibility.

 

 

[bolt.]

When I am an elderly person, if I need significant nursing, I hope there will be shifts of nurses to do that for me. I'd rather "burden" a paid professional than lay around in the home of a family member getting less-than-professional care while they try to carry on their own lives (in their spare time) or put their lives on hold until I croak. That's so not who I want to be... and I don't really intend to "be that" for anyone.

 

In short: If "I" need a nurse, buy me a nurse. Don't pretend you are one. If "you" need a nurse, get settled where having one is workable. I'll do/be the things only family can do/be. S/he can provide healthcare. Healthcare is a job, not a hobby.

 

I don't think there's any shame involved with normal families partnering with nursing homes for elder care.

[Pat in MI]

My parents never made us pay for room and board.  We had to pay expenses on a car when we purchased one.  I lived at home while attending college.   They figured since I was paying entirely for college on my own they would not charge for  room and board.  They even allowed me to use their car for the first two years of college until I finally purchased my own car.  Then they helped with insurance until the car was paid off.   I had some wonderful parents!

 

 

Just a side note:  A friend of my parents charged their kids room and board after they graduated, (or it might have been when they started working)  but put all of that money in the bank for the child.  When they got married or bought a house, all of the money was returned to them. They usually had a nice little nest egg.   I always thought this was a very good idea.  

 

Blessings,

Pat

[fraidycat]

No. The deal when I was done school, working, and living at home was that I took them out for supper on payday.

 

I've "moved" (extended visits) back home several times in adulthood, even since being married/having children due to waiting for immigration paperwork and DH deploying (we go home to be close to family/support). In these cases I contribute through groceries, or in other "organic" ways, such as picking up items at the store, filling their gas tanks, and doing things around the house and yard that would otherwise go undone or have to be hired out because they are busy and/or getting to the age where the physical labor is just too much.

 

For example I went home this spring for 6 weeks for a visit. While there I cleared bushes, trimmed trees, installed new flooring that had been sitting there waiting to be done for several months (Dad and bro helped), sorted and decluttered the cold-storage room (Mom made decisions, I did heavy lifting), mowed the yard several times (HUGE, they live on a farm), cooked meals, picked up groceries, helped taxi farmers to and from different fields, weeded and cleared flower beds, and instigated the cleaning/decluttering of the barn that is used for storage. I didn't have to do the barn, I just had it on my to-do list on the fridge and Dad's friend (owner of a lot of the stuff in the barn) cleaned and sorted it because he didn't want me to toss his stuff. LOL

 

ETA: They didn't ask me to do any of it, I offered and it was part of my reason for going home for such a long visit - because I wanted to help them get some things accomplished. They are busier people now than they ever were when we were young!!!

[Murphy101]

When I am an elderly person, if I need significant nursing, I hope there will be shifts of nurses to do that for me. I'd rather "burden" a paid professional than lay around in the home of a family member getting less-than-professional care while they try to carry on their own lives (in their spare time) or put their lives on hold until I croak. That's so not who I want to be... and I don't really intend to "be that" for anyone.

 

In short: If "I" need a nurse, buy me a nurse. Don't pretend you are one. If "you" need a nurse, get settled where having one is workable. I'll do/be the things only family can do/be. S/he can provide healthcare. Healthcare is a job, not a hobby.

 

I don't think there's any shame involved with normal families partnering with nursing homes for elder care.

I don't really care if you you prefer a nursing home. I hope you can afford the choice and your family goes out of their way to visit you regularly.

 

But your post comes off as very condescending and disparaging to those who lovingly provide excellent care for those they love.

 

The majority of care provided in nursing homes is NOT provided by nurses. There are few actual RNs working the floor on any given shift. Most are more along the lines of aides and orderlies and nurse assistants.

 

You don't have to be a "professional" to make sure grandma takes her meds 3 times a day, gets decent food, regular cleaning and a clean environment. Many people in nursing homes don't need specialized care so much as regular attention and care, similiar to what one might give a child under 5 or 6. They can't open jars. They need a hand in and out if the tub/shower or someone to button up their pants and shirts.

 

Not to mention, many people can have nurses at their home should they need actual regular medical supervision daily.

 

It isn't a hobby to take care of someone in their last days.

 

It's an honor.

 

*smh*

[bolt.]

 

 

I hope you can afford the choice and your family goes out of their way to visit you regularly.

Nursing care is included in public healthcare. It's not the ritz, but needs get met. Nobody "can't afford" medical care here.

 

But, yes, I do hope for visits. I hope to be the kind of pleasant elderly person who doesn't drive people away, at least.

 

 

 

But your post comes off as very condescending and disparaging to those who lovingly provide excellent care for those they love.

And posts that imply only heartless meanines with no family feeling at all choose nurses to do nursing (and partner with other professionals to provide lesser levels of care)... well, sometimes they hit the same way. I think we should all make our own choices, but opinions are fine for sharing. No offense was intended.

 

 

 

You don't have to be a "professional" to make sure grandma takes her meds 3 times a day, gets decent food, regular cleaning and a clean environment. Many people in nursing homes don't need specialized care so much as regular attention and care, similiar to what one might give a child under 5 or 6. They can't open jars. They need a hand in and out if the tub/shower or someone to button up their pants and shirts.

Fair enough. You may have noticed that I mentioned nursing homes as appropriate when nursing is needed. If "Grandma sitting" is all that is needed, I don't think I'd mind house-sharing for that purpose. (On the other hand, bathing an adult is a lot different than bathing a child, so I feel that some of the tasks are quite different, and possibly better achieved in a place that is well designed and well staffed for the purpose.)

 

 

 

Not to mention, many people can have nurses at their home should they need actual regular medical supervision daily.

This, however, would be quite expensive to do privately, beyond what is provided through public health. Some home-care is provided, and I think things are shifting in that direction (as people-hours are more affordable than facilities), but a nurse caring for someone in their home needs to assess their level of capacity and make recommendations of when the needs and risks of staying home are getting too significant for that model of care.

 

It isn't a hobby to take care of someone in their last days.

It's an honor.

It may well be an honour, emotionally. I can see that perspective -- but I meant to say that it is an important job that requires skill, strength and a lot of just-plain-time. It's not something (that can be treated like a hobby) that squeezes in at the edges of an already full life. It either takes over quite a chunk of the life of the caregiver (if the care-giver can afford to set aside that much of their time) or things get out of hand quite rapidly as the care giver tries to do more things than there are hours in the day, and really tries to do them all well, and feels crazy and crummy about all of it.

 

If I ever do take on a live-in infirm parent, it will be with my eyes wide open and my calendar cleared -- just like I did for my babies. Maybe I will do house-sharing for a while, if someone is largely independent... but when nursing and clock-round care is needed, honest, I know when I'm in over my head. I don't think it's a shameful decision, and it's certainly not abandoning the person. It's getting more resources on board when more resources are required.

[regentrude]

Nursing care is included in public healthcare. It's not the ritz, but needs get met. Nobody "can't afford" medical care here.

 

Where is "here"?

[Soror]

back to the original post..

 

Both dh and I lived at home until we were married, he was 23 and I was 20. We still somehow managed to become responsible independent adults. Coincidentally the other day my 6 yo asked when she could move out, this was a curious question, not out of anger or such to be clear. I told her 18 but that sometimes kids like to stay at home and go to school and that they were all welcome to do that if they wanted. Both her and ds then said, "Wow you would let us stay, you guys are the best!" I couldn't help but laugh. I would expect at that point that they would be helping with household tasks, I expect them to do so now, in age appropriate ways. I don't think we would require rent. I think there are better ways to teach financial responsibility and we will(are) working on that long before that point. I would rather them work on saving their money or paying it towards their college or such.

 

fwiw I was a full-time college student. Dh did college and then a full-time job. As a caveat to the above of course I would not be keen about my kids vegging all day in the basement munching snacks and playing video games and not helping at all. To me it is a given if they at home they would be contributing as they are able, that is just being family.

[VaKim]

My mom has worked as a cleaner in 3 nursing homes. She said she'd rather we stuff her up under our house in the crawl space than put her in one of those places. Not saying it is that way everywhere, but the ones she worked in, the patients were treated terribly, ignored, not fed, talked to hatefully, etc. She wasn't allowed to do anything for them either. Not saying whether she obeyed that rule or not.

[Murphy101]

My mom has worked as a cleaner in 3 nursing homes. She said she'd rather we stuff her up under our house in the crawl space than put her in one of those places. Not saying it is that way everywhere, but the ones she worked in, the patients were treated terribly, ignored, not fed, talked to hatefully, etc. She wasn't allowed to do anything for them either. Not saying whether she obeyed that rule or not.

I have done some part time work in one, my BFF worked in them for years, other friends in the business - yep. None of us would be able to sleep at night with a loved one left in any we know.

 

I sure do hope it's better in other places, but I wouldn't leave my dog in the state homes many have no choice about being stuck with.

 

Which does not mean I think those who do use the state homes are awful people necessarily. Sometimes a suck situation is just slightly less sucky than another and people just have to do things they don't want to do. And it sucks. :(

[bluemongoose]

I went straight to college after high school, but I did live at home when on school breaks for the first 3 years. I didnt pay my parents in cash...I paid it in keeping the house for them as they both worked out of the home, doing childcare for my younger siblings when I was not at work myself, and making most of the meals during the week and some on the weekend. All of the money I made went toward college tuition.

[bolt.]

Where is "here"?

 

Canada. (Sorry, I thought I had mentioned it.)

[regentrude]

Canada. (Sorry, I thought I had mentioned it.)

 

I may have overlooked it. Then your situation is definitely better than the one in the US.

 

 

 

Nursing care is included in public healthcare. It's not the ritz, but needs get met. Nobody "can't afford" medical care here.

 

But even with a pretty good healthcare system like in my home country, Germany, nursing care is a big problem. Despite mandatory health insurance and mandatory long term care insurance and my MIL being classified as of the highest level of nursing need and thus receiving the highest level of insurance payments, my inlaws can not afford MIL's nursing home - unless FIL were to sell the house he lives in (which is not an option for an 85 year old man who is blind and can only live on his own because he is familiar with his home), gave all the proceeds to the state, became destitute, and went on welfare. Then the state would pick up the tab for the cost that exceeds insurance payment, for the lowest level facility.  So, the only way to make it work is for both sons to contribute, and that's pretty much typical for people with normal pensions.

 

I hope I fall off a mountain before I need nursing care.

[bolt.]

I too think I would prefer to go quickly.

 

I'm not to up on the details of nursing homes here in Canada, but basically, if your dr thinks you need a nursing home, you get put on a list and rooms/beds are just sort of allocated. There isn't a charge or a relationship with private insurance or anything like that.

 

It kind of happens whenever you start having long or frequent hospital stays.

[justamouse]

I paid a lot of my way when I was a kid, from about 14-18. 

 

I would NOT do that to my children. 

[Sun]

Maybe it's because I live up here in frozen Yankee land, or something else, but I'm shocked at the number of people who were never charged rent. Seriously?

 

I paid rent starting at 17 or 18. It was something like $100 a month I think. I had two jobs, had zero interest in going to college, and I also bought my own car, paid car insurance, bought extra groceries and all my own clothes. How is that terrible?

 

I paid rent for 5-6 years, until I was 22 and married DH.

 

If my kids want to stay home after graduation, they're welcome, but they'll contribute something to the household. Yep, it is their home...so they can help out like everyone else.

 

I'm really surprised at how many people have been or would be charged rent and even more surprised at how many wouldn't be welcome to live with their parents if something bad were to happen. I can understand the rent in families where money is quite tight or where parents are trying to encourage a shiftless 30-year-old to grow up, but in other situations, I just do not understand. It's completely foreign to how I was raised. It's not what was common among others I know either.

[TravelingChris]

I hope I never need to go to a nursing home  What I wouldn't mind is assisted living.  I have visited in very nice ones.  They still cost a lot less than nursing homes and the feel is completely different.   THe last one I would go to (as part of homeschool group visiting with the elderly) was in Florida and the people there had their wits about them for the most part but were disabled in other ways- arthritis, blindness, etc.  They were elderly, even very elderly, but did not have noticeable dementia.   Their lifestyle wasn't really what I want but certainly something I could accept. 

 

What I have done is bought a house which will be easy to fully accommodate a wheelchair including a straight staircase that will be easy to put a stairlift.  Now I just have to get dh to get a good paying job next year when he retires and we should be good to go. 

[Murphy101]

I may have overlooked it. Then your situation is definitely better than the one in the US.

 

 

But even with a pretty good healthcare system like in my home country, Germany, nursing care is a big problem. Despite mandatory health insurance and mandatory long term care insurance and my MIL being classified as of the highest level of nursing need and thus receiving the highest level of insurance payments, my inlaws can not afford MIL's nursing home - unless FIL were to sell the house he lives in (which is not an option for an 85 year old man who is blind and can only live on his own because he is familiar with his home), gave all the proceeds to the state, became destitute, and went on welfare. Then the state would pick up the tab for the cost that exceeds insurance payment, for the lowest level facility. So, the only way to make it work is for both sons to contribute, and that's pretty much typical for people with normal pensions.

 

I hope I fall off a mountain before I need nursing care.

That's how it is here too. Even if they are only barely living off social security, they have to sign everything over, including their home, to get state nursing facilities. And the worst thing about that is just because someone really needs a nursing home - it doesn't mean they necessarily always will. But that situation pretty much guarantees they will never have the freedom to even choose another facility (transfers are a nightmare and it's not unusual to literally die before getting one) much less leave it if their health improves.

 

For example, grandma falls and breaks her hip. She needs active care and physical therapy daily. But she can recover. However she is told she has to be in a nursing home for 6 months to get that care. But she can't qualify for the nursing home unless she is destitute. She signed everything over or sells it or whatever and then she is there for every ever because if she leaves, she's homeless. This is very very typical.

[Orthodox6]

When I am an elderly person, if I need significant nursing, I hope there will be shifts of nurses to do that for me. I'd rather "burden" a paid professional than lay around in the home of a family member getting less-than-professional care while they try to carry on their own lives (in their spare time) or put their lives on hold until I croak. That's so not who I want to be... and I don't really intend to "be that" for anyone.

 

In short: If "I" need a nurse, buy me a nurse. Don't pretend you are one. If "you" need a nurse, get settled where having one is workable. I'll do/be the things only family can do/be. S/he can provide healthcare. Healthcare is a job, not a hobby.

 

I don't think there's any shame involved with normal families partnering with nursing homes for elder care.

 

A lot in this post.  Some of it irritates me, if I take it literally as written.  Nonetheless, the post voices someone's current beliefs, which are valid for her. 

 

My first thought -- and the primary attempt to understand the post that I can muster -- is that the writer has not yet encountered much, if any, (via observation, reading, or experience) of the current state of eldercare, and paucity of good quality same, in the U.S.  I shall refrain from explaining at this point.

 

I would not assume that families provide substandard care.  Nor have I met anybody who considers caring for a loved family member to be "a hobby."

 

The only point with which I agree is the final one, that there no shame involved with doing what sometimes becomes necessary. 

 

I lack the physical health and the skills to care for a 90-year-old mother with advanced Alzheimers who is incontinent, always is at risk for serious falls -- (She has had several.) -- who suffered a hemorrhagic stroke earlier this year, and who requires clock-round care.  She lives in a care facility, which allows our family to care in our home for my father who, while increasingly frail, is fully competent mentally, and still able to do some things.  We have delegated that which must be delegated for my mother's care.  We monitor and intercede on her behalf for all the issues that continue to come up.  We are neither saints nor exceptionally good people; we just are grateful for the opportunities we have to serve.        

 

ETA:  P.S.  Just noticed that Bolt lives in Canada.  My Canadian friend would not share her semi-rosy view of things. 

[Aelwydd]

A lot in this post.  Some of it irritates me, if I take it literally as written.  Nonetheless, the post voices someone's current beliefs, which are valid for her. 

 

My first thought -- and the primary attempt to understand the post that I can muster -- is that the writer has not yet encountered much, if any, (via observation, reading, or experience) of the current state of eldercare, and paucity of good quality same, in the U.S.  I shall refrain from explaining at this point.

 

I would not assume that families provide substandard care.  Nor have I met anybody who considers caring for a loved family member to be "a hobby."

 

The only point with which I agree is the final one, that there no shame involved with doing what sometimes becomes necessary. 

 

I lack the physical health and the skills to care for a 90-year-old mother with advanced Alzheimers who is incontinent, always is at risk for serious falls -- (She has had several.) -- who suffered a hemorrhagic stroke earlier this year, and who requires clock-round care.  She lives in a care facility, which allows our family to care in our home for my father who, while increasingly frail, is fully competent mentally, and still able to do some things.  We have delegated that which must be delegated for my mother's care.  We monitor and intercede on her behalf for all the issues that continue to come up.  We are neither saints nor exceptionally good people; we just are grateful for the opportunities we have to serve.        

 

ETA:  P.S.  Just noticed that Bolt lives in Canada.  My Canadian friend would not share her semi-rosy view of things. 

 

I would say that if bolt is presenting a "semi-rosy" view of nursing care in Canada, then others here are presenting a somewhat idealistic view of caring for the elderly.  I can say that as my dh and I spent two years caring for my live-in grandmother, who has Alzheimer's.  She has 5 adult children--but none of them could step up to care for her.  As her third eldest grand child, I volunteered to do so, after my youngest sister could no longer do it.

 

Caring for an elderly person, even one relatively healthy like my grandmother, was difficult for us in many ways.  In the course of her "moderate" disease (Alzheimer's), we had to deal with multiple threats to our health and hers--in the form of gas burners being left on, using butcher knives to open small packages, fumigating an entire house at 2 am for one mosquito with toxic pesticides, taking the car keys and nearly getting into two car accidents--and so on.  It is NOT easy to control or monitor a 160 lb+ person 24 hours a day, and in addition to the fact we cooked, cleaned, prepared every meal for her, had to give her her medications, we also had to deal with increasing aggression in the form of verbal abuse and physical (pushing, shoving, etc.)  All of this, BTW, is perfectly common to people suffering from MODERATE dementia or Alzheimer's.

 

One can argue--well, we're not talking about caring for elders who require professional medical care.  The problem with that is it ignores the epidemic we are facing as a nation in terms of dementia, heart disease, diabetes, and so on.  All of these, BTW, are closely related diseases, as medical researchers continue to find more and more evidence to that end. 

 

What that means, in practical terms, is since your chance of dying from heart disease is 1 in 6, or diabetes is about 1 in 8, and since a third of seniors die with dementia, the chances that most of us will age without having some sort of serious medical condition requiring 24/7 monitoring and access to emergency care are...not particularly likely.

 

That said, it may seem that I'm advocating nursing home care as a standard model for senior living.  I'm not.  I'm very aware of the hideous conditions of many "nursing homes" throughout the country.  If you are financially secure enough to afford one of the nice ones, then great.  If you do not have the wherewithal, however, to pay for such care, and you have one of the above mentioned health conditions your choices are pretty much to burden your family and potentially put their physical, mental, and financial livelihoods at risk, or be consigned to a "hit-and-miss" system of nursing homes, and hope you end up in a decent one.

 

For those reasons, dh and I are planning and working very hard now to try to avoid that situation by, a, saving enough money to pay for our own nursing care, if we need it, and b, eating very well now, exercising, and trying to improve and preserve our health so that we can remain independent as long as possible.  Neither of these is full proof, but honestly, your best bet for remaining happy and able well into old age is to build up and maintain good health throughout adulthood.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Murphy101]

I am not painting anything as rosy or easy. It's sure as hell insulting to call the hard work and loving efforts family puts forth to take care of a loved one in their last years as a "hobby".

 

It is very hard, sad, dirty, time consuming, heart breaking, financially draining, stressful, rewarding, memorable, bonding and more.

 

It is not for everyone or every situation.

[Aelwydd]

I am not painting anything as rosy or easy. It's sure as hell insulting to call the hard work and loving efforts family puts forth to take care of a loved one in their last years as a "hobby".

 

It is very hard, sad, dirty, time consuming, heart breaking, financially draining, stressful, rewarding, memorable, bonding and more.

 

It is not for everyone or every situation.

Having been someone who has actually been there doing the hard work, Martha, I don't take offense at all at bolt's statement. In fact, I agree 100% with it, because I've been there in the trenches, having to argue with family members about why our grandmother requires 24/7 nursing care, and being ignored or accused of just trying to push her off.

 

 

Edited for privacy.

 

 

 

You can talk about work and honor and stress and all that--but you leave out one very important aspect: how dangerous it is living and caring for and adult that has unpredictable episodes impaired judgment, hallucinations, loss of compunction, physical violence like hitting, shoving, waving a butcher knife of other weapon, and so forth. There is a very good reason why more and more support groups are popping up for care takers of people suffering from dementia and Alzheimer's, and other health conditions that can produce such behaviors.

 

 

If it seems like I'm saying all this as an attack on you, Martha, it's not. I'm sharing some very personal experiences here (and I plan to delete it later) to point out the lack of comprehension many have regarding what it means to care for a loved one with serious health conditions. Yes, it is something dh and I wanted to do to give back to my grandmother. Yes, we love her, and are glad we were able to care for her. But, it took over a year for our own stress-induced health issues to subside after she was finally moved to an assisted living home. I still suffer from anxiety.

 

edited

 

 

And that's why bolt's comment is spot on,IME. For all that most people actually understand and appreciate the degree of upheaval and stress it takes, it might as well be a hobby to them, the way they use romanticized language like "Oh, it's hard and difficult work, but it's the right thing to do."

 

I will say the right thing to do is protect all parties involved--meaning, seniors from harming themselves, and from harming other adults or children living in the home, inadvertently. It means ensuring 24/7 support and access to emergency care and safeguards like the ability to keep them from wandering out of the house in the middle of the night. It means ensuring that when they develop comorbidities like dysphagia, there are CPR trained and nutritionally educated personnel who know what meals to prepare that they can safely consume, while not compromising their metabolic or electrolyte balance, all while being ready to administer immediate first aid treatment should they choke. It means constantly being on watch to look for signs of aspirated food and drink, increasing the risk for pneumonia.

 

It means a lot of things--but mostly, it means that when you are caring for someone in that situation, your life ceases to be about you, or even the rest of your family. You arrange your own needs, and those of your spouse and children, around the care of your loved one, and you are never not on call. It means you take on personal risk to not just your own person, but assuming risk on behalf of anyone else living in the same residence. It means that even if, despite all your care and vigilance, Something Really Bad Happens anyway, the rest of your family immediately looks at you in askance, and wonders if you are doing your duty by your loved on, or are you neglecting him/her.

 

To people outside this paradigm, their "understanding" might constitute all the carefully vested interest and research of a "hobby."

 

And yeah, I do think most people really don't understand. But I'm actually extremely grateful for our experience. First, because it gave me an opportunity to care for someone both dh and I love. Second, because it has taught me what I need to prepare for my own parents and dh's parents.

 

Finally, it has taught me that under no circumstances do I ever want to be that kind of burden on my son, or my grandchildren, if I have any. Dh feels the same way. We are taking measures now to prevent that from happening. I did not bring him into the world to weigh him down physically, emotionally, psychologically, and financially like that. And I will never understand parents who would desire that of their children.

[Orthodox6]

I harbour no illusions about what my family does. 

 

We paint no idealized picture of life.

 

We work hard and do not resent that we do so.

 

We know the hazards and the responsibilities.

 

We make use of the appropriate resources, and seek guidance from the appropriate people.

 

We have the parent who requires outside care placed in a residential facility.

 

We have the parent who does not require outside care at this point in time living with us.

 

Ours have been "whole family" decisions, not arbitrary dictatorship.

 

We started on this road because my father, who loves his wife dearly after sixty-nine years of happy marriage, willingly chose to care for her until he no longer could.  He was in danger of death had we not all sat down to take rational stock of the situation.

 

I do not understand the animosity that has surfaced in this thread.  Even when a specific post irritated me, I included open acknowledgement that the other writer was expressing her own belief set, as is expected and appropriate for a message board.

 

Life is not "all about me".  

[Luanne]

My sister-in-law lived with her parents until she married my brother.  She paid rent once she graduated from college and had a job.  All the money she gave her parents they returned to her when she married my brother and moved out.  She was 26 at the time.  I thought that was a nice thing her parents did for her.

[bolt.]

I didn't say elder care "was" a hobby -- I said "it's not a hobby" -- why are people reacting as if I called it a hobby?

 

To say something is "not a hobby" implies that it is serious business and hard work. It doesn't imply that people who are doing it (or will do it) are hobbiests. It implies that they are doing/contemplating a serious and difficult task.

[Murphy101]

How.. Matronizing using of you. :/

 

My own mother lived with me before she died. And she wasn't the only person I have been the primary caregiver for in their last days, including Alzheimer's.

 

Just because I don't agree with someone, doesn't mean I can't understand.

 

In fact, on another thread I even said I wouldn't feel safe leaving infants with elderly because it could be dangerous for both of them.

 

I hold no grudge or judgement at all to someone saying they can't provide what the patient needs. If they can't, then they can't.

 

But I think it's highly and equally disrespectful to presume that no one should or can. Or they are doing it like a hobby. (Seriously? I have nothing much respectful to say to such an outrageous statement. I'm pretty sure I'm not ever going to clean breathing tubes and wipe adult arses or make sure IV meds get delivered at 3am or be extra careful to speak in such a way that someone doesnt feel shame at needing urine bathed off them or be cussed at because they forgot who I was for a "hobby".)

 

With the right assistance in place, an honest assessment of options and needs of the patient and the abilities of those willing to care for them, quite a bit can be done at home safely and caringly. Many people are always going to need nursing homes and I truely hope they get quality care there and their families visit them frequently.

 

But for people who want to stay in a family environment and have family willing to provide that, I think they need lots of options, assistance, and be willing to adjust as their loved one's health needs change over time. And to understand that it could be many years of care that will likely get more complicated, not less.

[Luanne]

Wow. That is a fairly harsh sentiment in response to a range of family culture and experience.

 

Depending on circumstances, I would absolutely consider charging an able bodied, income producing parent who lived with me. I'd expect the same from them in reverse.

 

So you would charge your 91 year old father for living with you?  I hope you father has some place else to stay then that isn't so harsh.

[AK_Mom4]

I went far away for college, but when I came home for the summer break, I would pay my folks part of my paycheck to cover room and board.  I was working and making good money during the summer and they were going through a rough patch for money waiting for my dad's disability to kick in.

 

They would have never asked - I just paid it because it was the right thing to do.

[Murphy101]

I didn't say elder care "was" a hobby -- I said "it's not a hobby" -- why are people reacting as if I called it a hobby?

 

To say something is "not a hobby" implies that it is serious business and hard work. It doesn't imply that people who are doing it (or will do it) are hobbiests. It implies that they are doing/contemplating a serious and difficult task.

It comes across as though someone undertakes it with as much consideration as undertaking a hobby and you condescendingly informing them it is not actually a hobby.

 

Anyone with the brains of an ant can figure out that it's not a hobby and they don't need informed of such an obvious fact.

 

*deep breath Stepping away from the keyboard.*

[Aelwydd]

 

I do not understand the animosity that has surfaced in this thread. Even when a specific post irritated me, I included open acknowledgement that the other writer was expressing her own belief set, as is expected and appropriate for a message board.

 

Life is not "all about me".

You were the one who expressed irritation with bolt for her general comment. You basically summed up her viewpoint of health care as "semi-rosy," and therefore more easily dismissed. Her post was not aimed at you or anyone else here specifically--but was generally about how many people tend to approach the question of caring for an elderly person with the same gravitas as taking up a new hobby. How it's novel and appealing in the beginning, but not particularly well thought out in many cases.

 

You took issue with her. I don't feel animosity towards you or Martha, but I did feel compelled to defend bolt's statement, because I've witnessed the same lackadaisical approach to researching living requirements in my family and in some friends' families when the issue arose.

 

If you, personally, are prepared for and capable of providing such care, then neither her statement, nor my posts, are directed at you. I shared my experiences because a lot people seem to be motivated primarily by the emotion of the issue--duty, loyalty, nostalgia, affection, etc.,--that it clouds them from the hard, objective reality of day-to-day requirements. I shared to point out that whatever a person feels they should be doing, doesn't automatically make them capable or qualified to actually perform such care.

 

It also doesn't admit the fact that one may be dealing in the currency of health--specifically, the sacrifice of own's health and wellbeing (and their family's) in exchange for the ongoing care of a sick and elderly person.

 

I guess if I had to put it to an analogy--it'd be like someone coming on this board, all aglow about adopting a special needs child from overseas with RAD--and how they feel it's their God-given calling, and responsibility to take that child in, and love and care for them.

 

Then, you have posters here who actually have experience of caring for RAD-affected children, and they feel compelled to point out, it's not like taking up a hobby. You have to step away from your emotions a bit to really assess all the different risks involved in such a venture. It's a very costly decision, one that affects not just the adopting parents, but their other children and family as well.

 

Again, I've lived it--I've spent years caring full time for a grandparent with Alzheimer's. Comments like bolt's are not the insult--it's euphemistic language regarding the risks and sacrifices involved that I find personally offensive. I guess I found it offensive, too, that others here jumped on bolt for her comment, speaking on behalf of people like me, about what we would or would not appreciate. I personally did not find her comments insulting, but instead pretty accurate.