Online school is not homeschool?

[maize]

It also matters if it changes public perception of what a homeschooler is, because that can trickle down into law. I had a local politician tell me that I could not homeschool unless I belonged to the state virtual academy. I set her straight and quoted the law but it was disturbing to me that her perception was not accurate. And people who confuse the terms contribute to that warped legal perception.

I agree that there is risk of confusion and we need to be vigilant to maintain our freedom to homeschool. At the same time I think public independent study and virtual options might increase the public's conception of parents educating their children at home as a legitimate option. Look, even the public schools support uncertified parents teaching their own kids! (even if there is a public school teacher overseeing things). And how can a school district fuss over socialization if the district sponsors its own virtual school in which children are not socialized by daily interactions with their age peers?

[Jean in Newcastle]

I am all for it being a legal option.  I've never belonged to any homeschool coops so I have no opinion on virtual public schoolers joining them, though in theory I have no issue with that.  I have no issue with virtual public schoolers participating in all sorts of threads on a homeschooling board or any other social venue.  But I do still think of them as virtual public schoolers.  (And this is as someone who was strongly thinking of enrolling my son in one for this year until I was told that they would put him back two years per public school policy.)

[KellieK]

I realize my comment may have been offensive. I should have worded it better. My children are all young (oldest is 9). I have never been in a virtual school situation, but many of my friends do use them. It had never occurred to me that they would not be considered "home schoolers." I really did just want to know how it mattered, and now want to apologize if I offended or just came off as insensitive.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I realize my comment may have been offensive. I should have worded it better. My children are all young (oldest is 9). I have never been in a virtual school situation, but many of my friends do use them. It had never occurred to me that they would not be considered "home schoolers." I really did just want to know how it mattered, and now want to apologize if I offended or just came off as insensitive.

It was a valid question.  

[Crimson Wife]

But the fact is that there is a legal distinction between homeschoolers (or whatever your state calls them) and public schoolers.

There is no such thing as "homeschooling" under my state ed code. All students are either private or public school students. Some homeschoolers choose the private school route while others choose the public school route.

 

A big problem IMHO with making a legal distinction between private homeschools and other private schools is that often leads to a much higher level of government scrutiny for private homeschools than other private schools. Do you think B&M private schools would put up with having to submit portfolios to government officials for all their students the way many private homeschools are required to do?

[Supertechmom]

There is no such thing as "homeschooling" under my state ed code. All students are either private or public school students. Some homeschoolers choose the private school route while others choose the public school route.A big problem IMHO with making a legal distinction between private homeschools and other private schools is that often leads to a much higher level of government scrutiny for private homeschools than other private schools. Do you think B&M private schools would put up with having to submit portfolios to government officials for all their students the way many private homeschools are required to do?

 

But in many states there is that distinction. In SC you can attend private school, public school, public charter school, public online at home charter school, homeschool 3 YES 3!!!! different ways which also can include the very same online charter schools that are used in the public system (just paid by you) and there is even a special program that is virtual classes for any student in Sc. So it can get very confusing very quickly around here. There are three very distinct classes of students here with separate laws and regulations for each group. You must know which you are. Your location has nothing to do with it. How your school is funded, by whom and which law you school under does. Reason why so many things point blank ask for which law you school under. Most of the time, it doesn't matter. But sometimes it does. How you are counted, the degree of info about you that is collected and which set of regulations you have to abide by. not knowing can cause issues. Like the official that wanted some extra paperwork from me one year because all the other homeschoolers had to do it. Well, they were under different regulations and half were school at home public schoolers. For those in states that make the distinction, it is one we have to keep making as too many people in charge can't keep it straight. Especially when in some things you can have a blend of all three types in your programs. If you can't say, I use this law number# You can find yourself in a pickle.

[thewaka]

There is no such thing as "homeschooling" under my state ed code. All students are either private or public school students. Some homeschoolers choose the private school route while others choose the public school route.

 

A big problem IMHO with making a legal distinction between private homeschools and other private schools is that often leads to a much higher level of government scrutiny for private homeschools than other private schools. Do you think B&M private schools would put up with having to submit portfolios to government officials for all their students the way many private homeschools are required to do?

Homeschoolers in your state are called private schooled kids and are subject to different education laws than the public school kids. I wouldn't refuse to socialize with a ps at home kid in a homeschool group, but I cannot see the sense in saying a kid is a public schooled homeschooler. That just seems completely illogical. And in CA, it seems you think there can be public schooled private schoolers. I truly believe there is a distinction that matters (not to the point of complete separation) between homeschoolers (again, no matter what their legal name is) and at-home public schoolers.

 

BTW, I began HSing in PA where a portfolio, evaluation, and three years of testing are required. I looked at the laws regarding private schools wondering if they might be less intrusive. They weren't. I agree that CA has a pretty good set-up. However, I prefer OK where we live now because the constitution protects the right to homeschool and there is currently no law pertaining to homeschooling. Those doing public school at-home do not have that same freedom.

[Delirium]

I find the distinction to just be fuel for mommy wars.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I find the distinction to just be fuel for mommy wars.

Why?  No one needs to war over it.  Or put one up on a pedestal and the other down.  It's just a statement of legal fact.  I can see how in some states it is more confusing.  Perhaps I feel a bit more cut and dried about it because I am in a state where the legal distinctions are clear cut.  

[Delirium]

I chose _____. Clearly, my choice shows greater sacrifice/wisdom/whatever for my children. I'm a better mother.  Yuck.

 

I'm not saying anyone implied it was a hill to die on. I don't use an online school. I strongly dislike forcing a division over someone who thoughtfully chose which educational path suits their children's needs by saying they're not allowed to call themselves homeschoolers or whatever they please. I'd say that I don't care what other people do with their children's education, but then I'd be advocating those that allow children to make it to 15 illiterate. I'm not in favor of that.

 

[Carrie12345]

Our local hs groups are filled with families whose kids don't go to school. Most call themselves homeschoolers and that's fine for that purpose.

But many are using publicly funded school books with public school teachers from an accredited program that provides a state diploma and requires public school regulations be met.

Two of my kids have done that for one year each. I count those years in my "resume", but only b/c it takes toonlong to explain to people who really have no interest in the matter, lol.

 

No judgment, just legal distinction.

[Luckymama]

I am grateful I live in a state without a virtual public-funded option. We don't have any of these discussions locally.

[abba12]

I have no problem with people making the best choice for their family. And I have no problem getting together with people who use all sorts of educational methods. But I do have a bit of an issue when a neighbor etc. thinks "Oh, you homeschool. That's doing school on the computer, right?" And when I say that isn't the case for me, they wonder aloud why I wouldn't do that since it's so easy. And then they wonder aloud why the government should allow me to homeschool without the oversight of an online teacher/school. And then we have to get into the fact that part of that is because what they are thinking of is not homeschooling even if it is done at home.

This

[Jane Elliot]

I have no problem with people making the best choice for their family.  And I have no problem getting together with people who use all sorts of educational methods.  But I do have a bit of an issue when a neighbor etc. thinks "Oh, you homeschool.  That's doing school on the computer, right?"  And when I say that isn't the case for me, they wonder aloud why I wouldn't do that since it's so easy.  And then they wonder aloud why the government should allow me to homeschool without the oversight of an online teacher/school.  And then we have to get into the fact that part of that is because what they are thinking of is not homeschooling even if it is done at home.

And wait until you get into a discussion exactly like this one with your state legislator who has just come from a meeting with lobbyists from your state's largest VA. That's what happened to me, and that's when I did a 180 and decided that, at least in my state, keeping the legal distinction is extremely important.

[EKS]

The government considers them public school students. That technicality is a big deal.

 

Yes, I know.  I'm talking about in my dealings with them.

 

[Ellie]

It also matters if it changes public perception of what a homeschooler is, because that can trickle down into law.  I had a local politician tell me that I could not homeschool unless I belonged to the state virtual academy.  I set her straight and quoted the law but it was disturbing to me that her perception was not accurate.  And people who confuse the terms contribute to that warped legal perception.  

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

This cannot be emphasized enough, and it's why I continue to belabor the point (although before there were state-funded, on-line, home-based virtual schools, politicians--and others--would say that it was illegal to homeschool at all).

[Ellie]

Why?  No one needs to war over it.  Or put one up on a pedestal and the other down.  It's just a statement of legal fact.  I can see how in some states it is more confusing.  Perhaps I feel a bit more cut and dried about it because I am in a state where the legal distinctions are clear cut.  

 

The legal distinctions are clear cut in most states. People just don't get it, especially in states like California where they can enroll their children in a public charter school (because not all of them are Internet-based) and get stipends to pay for things like dance lessons, or they just hand in their list of curriculum materials and it's all paid for.

[fairfarmhand]

ugh....

 

I was on the receiving end of the "You're not a REAL homeschooler" argument last year about this time when I had 2 of my kids enrolled in k12

 

Their contention was

 

1. You are not choosing curriculum. My response was, "Sure, but how many homeschoolers go to Bob Jones or Abeka and just say, 'Send me Third Grade'  because their friend/mother/sister advised them to do so?" They don't research, they don't customize the material for their kids.  They just check a box.  I chose a curriculum in the same way, except I chose to allow the county to choose for me. If/When it didn't work for our family (and for one of my kids it didn't work long-term) I simply said, "We're switching to something else."

 

2. You are not teaching.  Another red herring. Homeschooling parents brag about how independent their kids are to do their work and be self motivated.  Last year when my oldest dd (grade 9) was not enrolled in a virtual school, 90% of her homeschooling she did on her own without my input. So freaking what?  My younger 2 were in K12, and I worked 10 times harder doing the curriculum with them each day than I ever have in traditional schooling.  Some kids work well independently, virtual school notwithstanding, others need handholding, even if they are enrolled in virtual school.

 

For MOST people this was a distinction to create cliques and look down on those who chose to use a virtual school.

 

 

Now in the eyes of the state, it is an entirely different mater altogether. I love that our county, and state give the virtual option. It enables parents who would never have the confidence to homeschool to give it a try without fears that their kids will fall behind. However, I don't believe that all homeschoolers should be required to participate in the virtual option. As my dd's (who was pulled from the TNVA at Christmas last year) teacher told me "This is not going to work for every student."  I've also had our county's virtual school supervisor say the exact same thing.

 

I don't think it should matter to your homeschooling group, your field trip group or in your day to day operations. I simply tell people "We're homeschoolers." I seldom get into discussion regarding these things with people. When folks ask about curriculum, I can answer, "K12" (which you can purchase on your own) or "Connections Academy" (which you can apply and pay for on your own) or list any of the materials that I use for my younger kids who are traditionally homeschooled.

 

(FTR, this year, My oldest is in Virtual, while my younger 3 are in traditional)

[MotherOfBoys]

I am a completely independent homeschooler. The buck stops here with education of my children and paying for it.

 

I think the distinction is for legal reasons only too. But those reasons are every important with all this common core discussion going on. It's the extreme independent hsing that gave the virtual and half and half schools their idea in the first place. I believe some people should not hs and for that reason I like having virtual schools and umbrella schools for them. I don't think every family should go that route though and it worries me that the government might push us that way because "it's so close so lump them together to get control and money!" That's why legally I will make a distinction. But, like the above posts, for play dates and hs groups I would not make a distinction. It's totally about big government regulation in something that they have no business regulating. Ideally, I would like only choices to private school (parents can be very involved in), umbrella school, or hs.

 

And I would be lying if I didn't say the "who's paying for it" doesn't sting a little when umbrellas/virtuals say they are hsing. We have to sacrifice to pay for the educational tools in this household and we get excluded from all ps activities.

[Ellie]

I am a completely independent homeschooler. The buck stops here with education of my children and paying for it.

 

I think the distinction is for legal reasons only too. But those reasons are every important with all this common core discussion going on. It's the extreme independent hsing that gave the virtual and half and half schools their idea in the first place. I believe some people should not hs and for that reason I like having virtual schools and umbrella schools for them. I don't think every family should go that route though and it worries me that the government might push us that way because "it's so close so lump them together to get control and money!" That's why legally I will make a distinction. But, like the above posts, for play dates and hs groups I would not make a distinction. It's totally about big government regulation in something that they have no business regulating. Ideally, I would like only choices to private school (parents can be very involved in), umbrella school, or hs.

 

And I would be lying if I didn't say the "who's paying for it" doesn't sting a little when umbrellas/virtuals say they are hsing. We have to sacrifice to pay for the educational tools in this household and we get excluded from all ps activities.

 

IKWYM, although I will say that a government-funded charter school, Internet-based or not,  is not an "umbrella school." That is a term used to describe something that *homeschoolers* enroll their children in to comply with the *homeschooling* laws in their states.

 

We should also not overlook the confusion factor when charter school families and homeschool families do things together. Newbie visitors will ask what they need to do to homeschool; the charter school people will say, "Oh, it's great. You sign up here, turn in your list of the curriculum you want to use, and then *all you have to do is* check in with your supervisor weekly, keep attendance, and take the end-of-year test and the weekly quizzes and evaluations," while the homeschoolers will say, "Oh, you don't have to do anything except file an affidavit annually." (This is how it works in California; it will be different in other states.)

[Dmmetler]

In my state, a majority of homeschoolers aren't legally homeschoolers, because most of us register with cover schools. Most of those cover schools only keep records (and simply provide an easier way for parents to handle the legal side)-the only reason I register with a cover is that it lets me do everything online vs having to physically take forms down to an overworked clerk at the BOE. The other main reason is that cover schools set their own testing requirements-mine doesn't require it before high school. Legally, though, DD is a private school student, at a private school with a satellite campus that just happens to match my street address, and is being taught by private school faculty-both DH and I are listed as such. Some cover schools provide more and require more, with some having physical campuses and actual classes in addition to the home education component.

 

Given that, it seems silly to me that many home education groups exclude TNVA students-because yeah, legally they're public schooled students. Legally DD is a private schooled student, not a homeschooled one.

 

Having said that, as the person who usually handles competitions/contests for the group, I do run into trouble in that most contests only allow eligibility through one track. So, TNVA has a science fair that sends people to the regional and state. It's on the other end of the state, so not many TNVA kids in my area are going to drag their projects across the state to participate. However, I cannot send a TNVA student from a local homeschool preliminary to the regional under the name of our homeschool association because they're eligible via their school. Doing so could get our entire "school" disqualified and ineligible to participate in the future. The same holds with a few of the cover school students where the cover school is a branch of a private school that holds it's own fairs as well.  

 

What it comes down to is that anyone can exhibit-but only kids registered with a) the PS district as independent homeschoolers

or b) one of the cover schools that just do homeschooling and don't have such events on their own can actually go to regionals from our preliminary. Others can bring their project, get judged, and even win local awards, but that's as far as they can go.

 

And it's hard to tell those kids that, even though the parents signed their understanding of the situation when they registered.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Farrar]

There is no such thing as "homeschooling" under my state ed code. All students are either private or public school students. Some homeschoolers choose the private school route while others choose the public school route.

 

A big problem IMHO with making a legal distinction between private homeschools and other private schools is that often leads to a much higher level of government scrutiny for private homeschools than other private schools. Do you think B&M private schools would put up with having to submit portfolios to government officials for all their students the way many private homeschools are required to do?

 

I wonder if being in California versus everywhere else would also give me a different conception of this question.  I don't think there's any other state that does it quite this way.  And for the rest of us, as many are saying, not making the distinction is the thing that is potentially harmful legal issue, not the other way around.

 

I agree with everyone saying that all the various options are valid, good options depending on your situation, so it's really not about that.

[Χά�ων]

I do not use a virtual school option but I like the idea that parents of children who do not do well in a traditonal classroom but lack the means for a private school and the confidence to homeschool solo have an option. I think we take for granted all our resources and information about homeschooling. A parent who is desperate to get their child out of a horrible B&M school situation could use all the help they can get. If a free to them virtual school helps that family, then more power to them.

[Ellie]

I wonder if being in California versus everywhere else would also give me a different conception of this question.  I don't think there's any other state that does it quite this way.  And for the rest of us, as many are saying, not making the distinction is the thing that is potentially harmful legal issue, not the other way around.

 

I agree with everyone saying that all the various options are valid, good options depending on your situation, so it's really not about that.

 

Texas and Illinois are also states where court decisions decided that homeschoolers are the equivalent of private schools and as such are unregulated. It is only that in California, private schools file an affidavit annually; they are otherwise unregulated (no testing, no teacher qualifications, no minimum number of school days, no requirements for graduation, etc.). So yes, muddling up private schools--i.e., home schools--and public-funded charter schools (which in Texas are on-line; California also has charter schools which are physical, home-based)--will be an issue, as well. Internet-based charter schools are just  catching on here, and I am stunned that the state group here has not latched on to this issue yet.

 

It will also be a problem in Oklahoma, where parents have a constitutional right to teach their children at home, and yet are choosing to enmesh themselves in Oklahoma Virtual Academy--oversight and government control where there is none as homeschoolers. And in New Jersey, which doesn't talk about homeschooling at all and parents complete freedom to teach their children however they want.

 

California has just been fighting this battle longer. The state education code allows for public schools to establish "independent study programs," which can either be on a short-term basis for a child who is home-bound because of illness, or will be taking an extended vacation, or campus-based, for children who are at risk, or home-based, with parents enrolling their children in the ISP and teaching them at home. This was a big deal back in the 80s, before home-based charter schools were "invented."  There are additional problems because of California's constitution disallowing religious materials and instruction in public schools, but that's a whole other debate, lol.

[fairfarmhand]

 

 

We should also not overlook the confusion factor when charter school families and homeschool families do things together. Newbie visitors will ask what they need to do to homeschool; the charter school people will say, "Oh, it's great. You sign up here, turn in your list of the curriculum you want to use, and then *all you have to do is* check in with your supervisor weekly, keep attendance, and take the end-of-year test and the weekly quizzes and evaluations," while the homeschoolers will say, "Oh, you don't have to do anything except file an affidavit annually." (This is how it works in California; it will be different in other states.)

 

When I answer questions like that I say, "Well, there's several ways of doing that in TN.  Of course there's the TNVA and other similar programs.  There's also the option of an umbrella school, or you can register with your local school board. " Then I explain my choices and why we decided to do things as we have.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I chose _____. Clearly, my choice shows greater sacrifice/wisdom/whatever for my children. I'm a better mother.  Yuck.

 

I'm not saying anyone implied it was a hill to die on. I don't use an online school. I strongly dislike forcing a division over someone who thoughtfully chose which educational path suits their children's needs by saying they're not allowed to call themselves homeschoolers or whatever they please. I'd say that I don't care what other people do with their children's education, but then I'd be advocating those that allow children to make it to 15 illiterate. I'm not in favor of that.

What?  I chose to have two children.  My choice doesn't show greater sacrifice/wisdom/whatever for my family.  I'm not a better mother.  But that choice was the one that dh and I felt was best for our family with all things considered.  (As far as we can consider all things.)

 

I chose ABC curriculum for Child A.  My choice doesn't show greater sacrifice/wisdom/whatever as a homeschool teacher.  But that choice is the best for this child.

 

I chose XYZ curriculum for Child B.  My choice doesn't show greater sacrifice/wisdom/whatever as a homeschool teacher.  But that choice is the best for this child.

 

I almost chose online school this year for Child A.  In this case not because it was the best for him, actually, though I didn't think it would harm him.  But because I wasn't sure that I could handle homeschooling traditionally (for lack of a better word) because of my health problems.  I ended up not going with this but if I had it wouldn't have made me a selfish mother because I took my health concerns into consideration and chose something that wasn't as individualized for him.  And legally I knew that I would be making a choice that was part of the public school system but had no problem with that.  

 

Saying "I chose _______" is not a value judgement.  It is a statement of fact.  I do think that some choices are more thoughtful than others.  But I can only judge the choices that dh and I make because I don't know the thought processes that anyone else went through in making their choices.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

We often use short-cuts when speaking to someone.  I often tell someone that I'm a SAHM.  True statement but it doesn't really explain what I do all day.  Then if they ask a follow up question I will say, "I am also a homeschooling mom."   Much of the time I don't have to explain beyond that.  But sometimes someone will ask further questions - like which box curriculum I use, so I explain further.  "In my case I choose an eclectic mix of textbooks.  I use a book called TWTM to help me to choose wisely."  If I had put ds16 into online school this year I might very well have said "I homeschool" to what I would have thought was a quick question.  But if someone then asked a follow-up question on legalities as they sometimes do, I would have said, "Well, actually, I wasn't completely accurate.  We school at home but as part of a public school online program."  If I were talking to homeschoolers I would have probably just skipped to "We school at home as part of a public school online program" from the start (or just used the local name for our online academy).  My point is that how accurate our speech is depends on context.  But I do think that in certain contexts it is important to be accurate.  If I did use the state online academy it would be inaccurate to tell people that all you do to homeschool is to sign them up with the virtual academy.  

[Ellie]

When I answer questions like that I say, "Well, there's several ways of doing that in TN.  Of course there's the TNVA and other similar programs.  There's also the option of an umbrella school, or you can register with your local school board. " Then I explain my choices and why we decided to do things as we have.

 

And I'd say, "To homeschool in TN, you can enroll with an umbrella school [because the law specifically uses that term, yes?) or register with your local school board." I would not include enrolling with TNVA, because that is not a *homeschooling* option. It is a public-school option.

[Ellie]

IAs a Catholic Christian, I get very uncomfortable when one subgroup attempts to narrowly define a general term in such a way to specifically excludes another subgroup that self-identifies with the general term. I don't like it when Protestant Christians try to redefine "Christian" in a way to exclude my denomination, and I don't like it when private homeschoolers try to redefine "homeschooling" to exclude homeschoolers enrolled in public ISP's or charters.

 

But there is a legal difference between children who are enrolled in private schools and children who are enrolled in public schools. The courts have recognized the fact that  *homeschoolers* are private schools by virtue of having filed a private school affidavit; children enrolled in these schools are private school students. Children who are enrolled in public ISPs or charters are public school students, and therefore legally *not* homeschooled, e.g., private school, students. I can assure you that public school officials are not the least bit confused about this; homeschoolers need to be equally un-confused.

 

But ITA about non-Catholic Christians redefining "Christian" to exclude Catholics. :-(

[Delirium]

What?  I chose to have two children.  My choice doesn't show greater sacrifice/wisdom/whatever for my family.  I'm not a better mother.  But that choice was the one that dh and I felt was best for our family with all things considered.  (As far as we can consider all things.)

 

I chose ABC curriculum for Child A.  My choice doesn't show greater sacrifice/wisdom/whatever as a homeschool teacher.  But that choice is the best for this child.

 

I chose XYZ curriculum for Child B.  My choice doesn't show greater sacrifice/wisdom/whatever as a homeschool teacher.  But that choice is the best for this child.

 

I almost chose online school this year for Child A.  In this case not because it was the best for him, actually, though I didn't think it would harm him.  But because I wasn't sure that I could handle homeschooling traditionally (for lack of a better word) because of my health problems.  I ended up not going with this but if I had it wouldn't have made me a selfish mother because I took my health concerns into consideration and chose something that wasn't as individualized for him.  And legally I knew that I would be making a choice that was part of the public school system but had no problem with that.  

 

Saying "I chose _______" is not a value judgement.  It is a statement of fact.  I do think that some choices are more thoughtful than others.  But I can only judge the choices that dh and I make because I don't know the thought processes that anyone else went through in making their choices.  

 

Oh FFS. I was explaining why I hate mommy wars.  I'm pro thoughtful parenting, I'm anti fighting. I'm anti thinking you're better because of whatever. We're all tiny little insignificant specks here for an insignificant amount of time. It's not worth creating dividing lines.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Oh FFS. I was explaining why I hate mommy wars.  I'm pro thoughtful parenting, I'm anti fighting. I'm anti thinking you're better because of whatever. We're all tiny little insignificant specks here for an insignificant amount of time. It's not worth creating dividing lines.

I agree with you.  I hate mommy wars too and am pro thoughtful parenting etc.  But this isn't about mommy wars.  This is about legal definitions of different (perfectly acceptable) educational options.  

[Delirium]

The thread is, yes. You asked me why I said my opinion was it was mommy wars fuel. That is why.

[AimeeM]

I tend to look at it legalistically. Legally, in our state, those using a virtual public option are not classified as homeschoolers.

[AimeeM]

I agree, but my state would not recognize it as such.  I'd still have to fill out the homeschool paperwork and follow the homeschool regulations. 

 

And I assume that in many cases the parent still is part of the schooling in some way.  Are there really a lot of on-line schools where the parent can just turn on the computer and the kid is good to go?  If so, where is this I want to sign up.  LOL

I agree. In our state, privately funded virtual or not, you have to enroll as a homeschooler - I assume because those schools have no local oversight. I think there is a difference between using that and the public virtual in the essence that with a privately funded virtual school, you have the ability to have teacher oversight or not, which classes you take and which you do not, etc. Calvert, for example, offers the whole shebang, or you can just order the lesson plans and curricula, sans teacher support... or you can just order their history... or just their math... or use all of it BUT the math, etc. Kolbe academy - you can enroll fully and have lesson plans, or use some of their live classes, or you can enroll but drop certain classes, etc.

[City Mouse]

I just think it is great that there are so many choices as to how we choose to educate our kids. Unfortunately, if you live in a rural area like I do now there are less options. The addition of virtual schooling in my state in the last two years has given us more choices.

My DS is currently attending a state charter virtual school. Yes, it is one on the big companies. This is the first year for this school in our state.

I do not hesitate to tell people who ask that he is attending an online school. Mostly, that is because I am such a supporter of school choice that I want people to learn that this option exists.

[Crimson Wife]

There are two separate questions. One is location: homeschooled vs. attending a B&M school. The second is the funding source: private vs. public. If one were to draw a Venn Diagram you'd have two non-overlapping circles (homeschooled and attending B&M school) with two other circles that overlap the first two but not each other. A student could be in a private homeschool, a public homeschool program, a private B&M school, or a public B&M school.

 

If your child is not attending a B&M school, then he/she is being homeschooled. Period. Funding source is irrelevant.

 

If you rather than the taxpayers are picking up the tab for your child's education, then he/she is a private school student. Period. The location is irrelevant.

[Pen]

There are two separate questions. One is location: homeschooled vs. attending a B&M school. The second is the funding source: private vs. public. If one were to draw a Venn Diagram you'd have two non-overlapping circles (homeschooled and attending B&M school) with two other circles that overlap the first two but not each other. A student could be in a private homeschool, a public homeschool program, a private B&M school, or a public B&M school.

 

If your child is not attending a B&M school, then he/she is being homeschooled. Period. Funding source is irrelevant.

 

If you rather than the taxpayers are picking up the tab for your child's education, then he/she is a private school student. Period. The location is irrelevant.

 

I think the way you understand this is based on your exact situation and the legalities in your particular state.  

 

This is the point I was trying to make when I said that the answer to the OP question depended upon who is answering the question and where that person is.

 

It sounds like you are probably in California--the only place I know out of all the 50 states for which your statement makes sense--but maybe this fits somewhere else as well.

 

It does not fit the state where I am located.  It does not fit many other states whose rules--and therefore the homeschooling reality for various people who are "homeschooling"-- I am familiar with.  It most likely does not fit the rules in various other countries.

 

If you were to draw Venn diagrams representing homeschooling rules in various places, I think the situation in California overlaps with other circles--but has a large area that does not fit into a union set with what is homeschooling in other places and the Venn circles that would represent the other places.  

[Ellie]

 

It sounds like you are probably in California--the only place I know out of all the 50 states for which your statement makes sense--but maybe this fits somewhere else as well.

 

It does not fit the state where I am located.  It does not fit many other states whose rules--and therefore the homeschooling reality for various people who are "homeschooling"-- I am familiar with.  It most likely does not fit the rules in various other countries.

 

 

 

If a child is enrolled in a government-funded school, he is a public school student, regardless of where his classroom is, and so he is by definition not a homeschooled student, whether that particular state has a homeschool statute (such as, oh, Arizona, or Pennsylvania, or Virginia), or a court case (such as California, Texas, and Illinois), or nothing at all (such as New Jersey), whether the state says he's a homeschooled student or a private school student. Public school officials know this--they are, after all, getting money for each of these children; parents need to know it, as well.

[mamaraby]

I think the way you understand this is based on your exact situation and the legalities in your particular state.  

 

This is the point I was trying to make when I said that the answer to the OP question depended upon who is answering the question and where that person is.

 

This.  It really doesn't matter one whit what the situation is in California because I'm in Wisconsin.  In Wisconsin, if you enroll in Connections or K12 or WVA, you are a public school student.  You have to enroll your child in the public school system during open enrollment.  Which school district you enroll your child in greatly depends upon which virtual school you choose.  You follow the same requirements that public school students do and you are counted among enrollment numbers just like if my son attended the school a few blocks away.  In my case, your location or where you learn has nothing to do with it.

 

In Wisconsin we are considered private school students Wisconsin statute 118.165.  Virtual schools fall under a completely different set of regulations.  We're required to file the PI-1206, public virtual charter schools do not.

 

The more we blur the lines between public virtual charter schools and private homeschoolers, the more likely we are to end up having to comply with the same requirements that those students are.  The more we conflate the two, the more the voice of power shifts from grassroots homeschooling advocates and big money charter types.

 

In Wisconsin, as in many states, we need to maintain clear distinctions when it comes to labels because doing so helps to maintain the homeschooling freedoms many fought so hard to establish in the first place.  Like others, I hate to belabor this point, but that doesn't change the situation here in Wisconsin.

[HS Mom in NC]

I couldn't disagree more. Homeschooling *IS* about location. A student who is not enrolled in a brick-and-mortar school but who receives his/her education at home is a "homeschooler". That student could be a private school student or a public school student, but in either case he/she is still being "homeschooled".

 

As mentioned earlier, this whole debate reminds me very much of Protestant Christians who narrowly define the general term "Christian" in order to exclude certain Christian denominations.

 

So, are you saying that many of the pioneering homeschooling families who clearly stated that the beginning of the homeschooling movement they were involved in was an objection to the government being in charge of education are a figment of my imagination, and I didn't hear it out of their own mouths and their own writings?  I was careful to state "many" as opposed to all.  Did you carefully read "many" as opposed to all? You've never heard some people say they believe in the separation of School and State?  I hear that frequently from some in the homeschooling community.  Are you new to homeschooling?  Are you from a very small homeschooling community?

 

Yes, you're part of the homeschooling community for whom it's about location.  My point was there are two camps who don't agree.  I left room for other another camp.  You didn't.  You seem to be  saying it's categorically about location but many simply don't accept it.

 

What are you talking about when it comes to the term Christian in this context!?!??!?! I pointed out legal and philosophical issues entirely unrelated to religious views at all.  Some of the pioneers I'm talking about are not religious at all.  Have you not met secular homeschoolers? We have a huge secular homeschooling community here and the legal and philosophical issues related to who foots the bill and who calls the shots includes them too.  There are secular people in both camps on that issue.  There are also Muslim homeschoolers here as well as Jewish ones.  I haven't rubbed elbows with very many here, but I'm pretty sure there will be a mix of responses in each religious group about whether homeschooling is ultimately about funding and parental control or location  and the legal issues involved. 

 

By the way, the devout Catholic group Sacred Heart here doesn't allow any non-Catholics in their groups-not even their PE classes.  I don't get in a huff about being excluded.  I have no categorical objection to closed groups-homeschooling is a private party and no one is entitled to an invitation.  Neither am I in a huff when other Christian denominations don't view my denomination as "true" Christianity.  That's life in a free society.  To each his own.

[Kinspired]

Homeschooling definition from Webster:

Main Entry: home·school

Pronunciation: \ˈhÅm-ËŒskül\

Function: verb

Date: 1980

intransitive verb

: to teach school subjects to one's children at home

transitive verb

: to teach (one's children) at home

 

 

 

If a child is enrolled in a government-funded school, he is a public school student, regardless of where his classroom is, and so he is by definition not a homeschooled student, whether that particular state has a homeschool statute (such as, oh, Arizona, or Pennsylvania, or Virginia), or a court case (such as California, Texas, and Illinois), or nothing at all (such as New Jersey), whether the state says he's a homeschooled student or a private school student. Public school officials know this--they are, after all, getting money for each of these children; parents need to know it, as wel

[HS Mom in NC]

I would add to your list

 

7. Who issues the transcript and diploma?

 

Even with outsourced classes that give grades, a legally homeschooling parent would issue the diploma and has complete control of the transcript. Homeschooling is more about the source of who is in charge of the final outcome than where the student is.

 

Excellent point.  I'll add it next time this comes up.  We've all been here before on this issue and we'll all be here again.

[Ellie]

It really doesn't matter one whit what the situation is in California because I'm in Wisconsin.  In Wisconsin, if you enroll in Connections or K12 or WVA, you are a public school student.  You have to enroll your child in the public school system during open enrollment.  Which school district you enroll your child in greatly depends upon which virtual school you choose.  You follow the same requirements that public school students do and you are counted among enrollment numbers just like if my son attended the school a few blocks away.  In my case, your location or where you learn has nothing to do with it. It is the same way in California.

 

 

In Wisconsin we are considered private school students Wisconsin statute 118.165.  Virtual schools fall under a completely different set of regulations.  We're required to file the PI-1206, public virtual charter schools do not. It is the same way in California (except for statute numbers and form numbers and whatnot, lol).

 

The more we blur the lines between public virtual charter schools and private homeschoolers, the more likely we are to end up having to comply with the same requirements that those students are.  The more we conflate the two, the more the voice of power shifts from grassroots homeschooling advocates and big money charter types. Exactly, ITA.

 

In Wisconsin, as in many states, we need to maintain clear distinctions when it comes to labels because doing so helps to maintain the homeschooling freedoms many fought so hard to establish in the first place.  Like others, I hate to belabor this point, but that doesn't change the situation here in Wisconsin. Exactly. ITA.

 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

What we really need in the US is each state legally defining and protecting each and every educational option out there, calling each by its own name, and specifically stating the rights of parents to participate in each, and mandating what oversight if any is required in each.   Some states, like CA, are still in the dark ages when it comes to these matters. Others still leave gaps.

 

Here in AZ it's public, private or homeschooling.  I think there need to be more. 

Homeschool- where the parents accept no tax money or services and to select the curriculum (not paid for by tax dollars) and teach their children core subjects themselves. No government mandated testing required.  Homeschool high school diplomas are issued by the parent. Some states specify which percentage of teaching the parent has to do in the core subjects making room for private teaching on DVD or co-oping.  

 

Private School- online or at home where the parents pay someone else (not a state or government employee or ) to select the curriculum teach their children core subjects. No tax dollars are spent.  No government mandated testing required. The private school issues the high school diploma.

 

Public/Charter School- online or at home.  Government employees select the curriculum and teach the child.  Tax dollars are used to pay for the teachers and the curriculum.  Government teachers or schools issue the high school diplomas.  Mandatory testing required.

 

NOTE: Tax payers should be thrilled that public school at home is now an option.  The average cost of public school in the US is at least $10,000 per year per child (although the Cato Institute argues that that number is actually higher.) It's a rare parent who is truly pays for it taxes-they pay a fraction of it. Children do better when parents are involved and it appears that delivering government school online is cheaper.  So, between those two things, it has the potential to create a better return on the taxpayers' investment.  

 

NOTE: One issue yet to be studied much this early in the game is the academic performance of online public school as a whole. Many homeschoolers worry that online students at home perform as a whole lower that homeschooled kids who receive no government funds or government control.  They're insisting that public/charter school online student testing results not be included and averaged in with their homeschooled children.  They've been saying for decades now that government involvement is not necessary to perform well academically.  They want to kept these two groups separate when studies are done so they can prove it.  Mixing the two in studies addressing that specific question muddies the waters and is completely scientifically invalid.

 

Tutoring- this is a tough one.  It's private school with one teacher, but sometimes for only for one or a few subjects.  I guess creating a system where a child gets some sort of certification from the tutor for each class and some other sort of diploma issued by the tutor would work.  No tax dollars can be used.  No government mandated testing either. 

 

Co-oping-another idea that needs a clear legal definition and protection.  Like the tutoring scenario, it needs some sort of class certification by the person doing the teaching.  It also shouldn't allow tax dollars or any government mandated testing.

 

Hybrid public/homesschooling- so many people are dependent on the government for some of their child's education, so I think there can be a system that requires mandatory testing for classes taught at the expense of taxpayers and a government hybrid diploma that recognizes both approaches.

 

Hybrid private/homeschooling- again no tax dollars can be used, but some sort of mix of class certification and a diploma that recognizes both things happened.

America is based on the idea that the government has to answer to the people.  So, government schools should have some mandatory testing so the government can give an account of how well it's educating children with taxpayer dollars, and if most of the people don't think it's doing a good job, they can vote the bums out and give someone else a chance to do better.  Anyone accepting tax dollars has to account to the taxpayers for whether or not they used those monies to get the job done. How much testing and in what subjects is another discussion.

 

Legal definitions matter because the determine who is subject to which law (funding and regulations) and who is not.  Since there are so many options out there, we need legal definitions that are up to date and protect parents' rights.  That doesn't mean every parent has to agree or support every option every parent chooses, but I think every parent is smart to support the idea that all parents should have the right to chose what they decide is best for their own children.

Increasing the spectrum of legally defined and protected options also draws clear lines about who can take money from public coffers and who cannot.  You want complete freedom to make all the decisions, then you get to pay for it yourself.  You want to use money that isn't yours?  Then you have to account to those who gave it to you for what you're doing with it and you have to follow government guidelines for what curriculum taxpayer dollars can be spent on.

[Ellie]

Homeschooling definition from Webster:

Main Entry: home·school

Pronunciation: \ˈhÅm-ËŒskül\

Function: verb

Date: 1980

intransitive verb

: to teach school subjects to one's children at home

transitive verb

: to teach (one's children) at home

 

 

 

 

This is still irrelevant when it comes to legal issues. Please notice that I have not said whether I think that people whose children are enrolled in Internet-based charter schools are real homeschoolers or not. I have only--and continually--pointed out that it is a legal issue. Children who are enrolled in public-funded charter schools (aka "virtual academies," which sort of makes me wonder if someone intentionally came up with that to confuse people, but maybe I'm just being paranoid. I don't usually buy into conspiracy theories, lol, but I digress), Internet based or not, are legally public school students, not homeschooled students (or private school students, or anything else that is *not* public school). The state knows the difference. Parents need to know the difference.

[Jean in Newcastle]

This is still irrelevant when it comes to legal issues. Please notice that I have not said whether I think that people whose children are enrolled in Internet-based charter schools are real homeschoolers or not. I have only--and continually--pointed out that it is a legal issue. Children who are enrolled in public-funded charter schools (aka "virtual academies," which sort of makes me wonder if someone intentionally came up with that to confuse people, but maybe I'm just being paranoid. I don't usually buy into conspiracy theories, lol, but I digress), Internet based or not, are legally public school students, not homeschooled students (or private school students, or anything else that is *not* public school). The state knows the difference. Parents need to know the difference.

As I said somewhere above, it really doesn't  matter when it comes to how you identify yourself.  But if someone asks you how to homeschool in your state, please know the facts and as Ellie said, know the difference and I will add - tell them the difference.  

[Guest treykmason]

Homeschool is not just restricted to private home teaching. Online school is also a form of homeschooling. My son is taking online tutoring for almost a year and yeah he had benefited. I would prefer homeschooling against public school.

[Jean in Newcastle]

reported

 

[Catwoman]

I realize my comment may have been offensive. I should have worded it better. My children are all young (oldest is 9). I have never been in a virtual school situation, but many of my friends do use them. It had never occurred to me that they would not be considered "home schoolers." I really did just want to know how it mattered, and now want to apologize if I offended or just came off as insensitive.

I didn't think it was offensive at all. Actually, I thought it was an interesting question. :)

[Catwoman]

reported

You are lightning fast tonight, Jean!!! :thumbup:

 

I hope no one clicks on the "tutoring" link.

 

It sounds like treykmason, our clever troll du jour, should consider some online tutoring in grammar and spelling. I wonder if he clicked on his own link. ;)