What do you do when someone close to you is adulterous

[BlsdMama]

  Everyone is a sinner saved by Grace.  No one sin is worse than another.

 

Only when they are repentant.  My .02. 

[Scarlett]

...and their marriage is definitively ending over it? Divorce papers are filed, a new relationship has been formed. What is your behavior obligation towards the cheater, who was your friend, your brother, your ____________? Tell him he's an asshat and then eventually send Christmas cards to his new "family?" Tell him he's an asshat and never get over what he did to his family? What about other people within your circle? Is this an off-limits topic or do you tell others you're disgusted with the cheater?

 

Unfortunate new territory I have to wade through. :confused1:

Quill, try not to think too far down the road.....relationships that begin as affairs have a really tough time of making it last longer than 5 years. I would be civil but distant from my brother if he did this ( and he has!).

 

As far as speaking up now, I definitely would. He will take your silence as condoning his adultery.

[Ellie]

:grouphug:

 

If the divorce is happening because of the adultery, then I'd choose the wounded party. I'd be civil to the adulterer, but I'd support the other person wholeheartedly--invite her to all family gatherings, take her out to lunch, call or visit regularly, remember her birthday, everything.

[Tammyla]

If it were me with a sibling, (And it has been btw; the rest of my family never knew and keeping the secret really ate me up, but I couldn't justify hurting my parents or the rest of the family.) I would be upset, but talk to them and then choose to love them and move on.   If continuing a relationship with the stbex is important to you, do it.

 

You can encourage him to tell your mom & family, but I wouldn't hurt her with the news myself.  It isn't easy to keep your mouth closed as the fallout occurs around you, but in many cases it is the best option; the deed is done and you aren't going to be able to fix it.  Kwim?    Don't put yourself in the role of messenger, because we all know what happens to the messenger. 

 

I'm really sorry you are in the middle. :grouphug:

 

 

[Tap]

For me it was my friend and her husband.  I was friends with the dh too, but only because of the connection with the wife.

 

The wife told me she had an affair.  We talked, I consoled/counselled, agreed with her that she skewed up, let her cry, made her laugh and we moved on.  I checked in with her via text messages for the next couple of months to make sure she was hanging in there and we met for dinner periodically.  I was a safe friend to her who she could talk to about both parts, her new 'boyfriend' and her divorce.  

 

I told her that my friendship with her was not conditional on her marriage to him.  She is still a wonderful, amazing person who made a major mistake, regretted it, repented it, and tried to put a broken marriage back together until it was clear for all of their sake, it was broken beyond repair.  

 

I still see her, but not him, because he was not my friend, she was.  I still run into him in town now and then, and are cordial, but when I have a question that he would have the answer to...he is no longer my 'go to guy' on that genre of books.  

 

[vonfirmath]

DH was in his uncle's marriage to his aunt when he was a wee lad. (age 3? 5?)

 

Eventually, Uncle cheated on Aunt and the marriage broke up.  He married the cheatee. The family remained friends with the Aunt and she's the fifth sibling in the family.  It seems like for a long time the family didn't have a lot to do with Uncle though he was invited to weddings and such. His new family didn't make it to ours :(  (There were kids, but not Uncle's. His new wife had young twins when they got married)

 

The second marriage broke up and Uncle is now married to a third person. But a lot of forgiveness has happened and they are back in the family.

 

But his first wife is still a part of the family too. Its just the way things are.

 

Interestingly, for two gift giving occasions in my son's young life (6 years) this uncle and this aunt have given him the same exact thing! (luckily both also give gift receipts and have no hard feelings about returning gifts. But from the outsider's point of view looking in, it is amusing)

 

He has received no other repeat presents.

 

Uncle's third wife is good for him. I really like what I've seen of her but we LOVE Aunt.  That is one of the people our daughter is named after.

[Audrey]

I know it's hard not to tell the Guilty Party exactly what you think of him, and that you want to support and commiserate with your friend, Quill, but if there is even the teeny-tiniest chance that they will get back together, everything you say may come back to bite you. Your family member will be angry because you sided against him, and your friend will be angry because you said mean things about her once-again precious husband.

 

Be very careful.

 

 

Agreed, 100%.   If it isn't your marriage, you really should keep your opinions to yourself and do your best to avoid taking any sides or putting yourself in a position of being forced to take sides.  Most certainly, do not disparage either party because when/if they ever do get back together (whether by marrying again or even just by becoming friendly again), you can be sure they will compare notes and anything you ever said will be held against you.

[dbmamaz]

So, i'm a little confused about this 'its not your marriage'.  If you see one person treating another person really badly, you have an opinion.  Truthfully, for me, cheating and realizing you were mistaken is understandable. Cheating and realizing you need to divorce is understandable.  Cheating and abusing and cheating again and walking out without making any attempt to do the right thing by the spouse, thats something that makes me realize i dont want this person in my life. I dont want to have a relationship with someone who is abusive.  If you arent happy in your marriage, tell your spouse you want a divorce, but dont run around and lie and make them look like the bad guy and the vanish without telling them.  I dont care if they are blood, i dont want abusive people in my life.

[Scarlett]

Quill is asking about people you are close to. I think she even stood up with them at their wedding. If I am in your wedding or attend as a close friend and you promise before us and God to honor your wedding vows, I certainly will not keep quiet if you then choose to blatantly break those vows and destroy a family.

 

As far as not telling your parents, (If the cheater is a sibling), I would be furious if I was introduced to a 'new' person my child was dating and it was kept from me that this person was involved in breaking up my grand kids FOO.

 

Affairs thrive in secrecy and I will have no part of it. If I know someone is committing adultery I will not be keeping that secret.

[Incognito]

What I have done is write a letter to them.  I was able to write and re-write it.  Be honest and open, but not bitter and hurtful.  Finish the letter, sit on it for a week or two, then edit again (and decide if it is really worth sending).

 

As far as who to support - your friend.  Your brother is in love and busy with that anyways.  He will be in too much of a fog to really know what is going on around him, and affairs are amazingly blind and self-centered.  So unless you do something utterly horrible to him, he likely won't notice what you are up to, and you have a few months (years?) to figure out what you want to "do".

 

 

[Guest]

I don't understand the secret mentality.

 

If I were in your situation I would tell my mom he was having an affair and he had filed for divorce. If more people would stand up and denounce affairs maybe fewer cheaters would keep at it.

 

That is part of why this is difficult for me. My family is and has always been secretive and I don't know what my role is. Part of me feels it's his bed, let him lie in it, but part of me knows he will not tell the whole situation. He will want to still look good by my parents. I can't imagine any scenario where he would own the specific reason he is leaving her, even if he goes as far as to say he is leaving her. 

 

I also think that it makes a difference that theirs was a Christian wedding. The witnesses to the wedding are *supposed* to be holding the couple in some accountability. They're (we're) not supposed to shrug our shoulders and say it's none of our business.

 

ETA: I can't believe I committed a "their" faux pas! ;)

 

[Catwoman]

That is part of why this is difficult for me. My family is and has always been secretive and I don't know what my role is. Part of me feels it's his bed, let him lie in it, but part of me knows he will not tell the whole situation. He will want to still look good by my parents. I can't imagine any scenario where he would own the specific reason he is leaving her, even if he goes as far as to say he is leaving her.

 

I also think that it makes a difference that theirs was a Christian wedding. The witnesses to the wedding are *supposed* to be holding the couple in some accountability. They're (we're) not supposed to shrug our shoulders and say it's none of our business.

 

ETA: I can't believe I committed a "their" faux pas! ;)

How could he possibly continue to look good in the eyes of your parents? :confused: He's getting a divorce because he had an affair. How can he possibly put a positive spin on that?

 

Did you have a good relationship with your brother before he cheated on his wife?

[Scarlett]

How could he possibly continue to look good in the eyes of your parents? :confused: He's getting a divorce because he had an affair. How can he possibly put a positive spin on that?

 

Did you have a good relationship with your brother before he cheated on his wife?

 

 

Cat I think she is saying he won't tell his parents and the family culture dictates that no one else will either.

 

I would tell them. 

[Catwoman]

Cat I think she is saying he won't tell his parents and the family culture dictates that no one else will either.

 

I would tell them.

Thanks, Scarlett -- I think I have misunderstood quite a bit about the family dynamic involved here.

 

The whole situation is so foreign to me, so I probably shouldn't even be trying to offer advice, but hey, since I'm already here... ;)

 

I'm just trying to picture him showing up at Thanksgiving with his new girlfriend and no one asking where his wife is.

 

In my own family, it never would have been a secret, so it's hard for me to understand the mentality. I don't know why the parents wouldn't be told about it -- it certainly involves them if they have any relationship at all with their DIL, and it seems incredibly odd to me that Cheater Dude would try to keep that kind of secret from his own parents.

 

My comments were based on how I thought Quill should deal with the couple, considering that the wife is still hoping for reconciliation. If she has a good relationship with her parents, I would have assumed that she would have already talked to them about the whole thing. (And if I was Quill's mom and found out later on that she knew what was going on and didn't tell me, I would be very angry!)

[Harriet Vane]

And I think for our own health and well-being why do we pretend things?!  What he did was wrong.  It was vile and wrong.  He broke covenant, destroyed his marriage, betrayed his wife and his children.  Why do we pretend it is anything but wrong?  And in my world the new relationship continues to be adultery, even if they end up getting married.

 

Why do we play along?

 

I would tell the cheat-ee that I am so sorry she was betrayed and that I hope she can heal from it.  I would tell the cheater that unless he feels like being repentant, civility is about all I could manage.  Someone ought to help him if he asks why.........

 

:iagree:

 

Cheating involves lying and dishonesty as a lifestyle. The guilt the cheater feels and the cheater's need to paint the cheatee as a witch also involves a lot of petty meanness both in word and deed towards the cheatee as well. In short, the cheater lives a life that is totally dishonest as well as destructive to those around him/her. The lifestyle is remarkably similar to that of a drug addict, except that the cheater isn't killing off brain cells with his/her behavior, so he/she has even less of an excuse for their rotten behavior.

 

I have faced this situation before.

 

In one case, the cheater was genuinely repentant and worked hard to repair the marriage. The wrong that was committed was not against me, and because the cheater was repentant I have never held it against this person. There was honesty with the spouse, and there was repentance, and there was changed behavior.

 

In one case, the cheater never repented. His behavior was appalling. I didn't know him well, so I confined my efforts towards supporting the cheatee in setting up her new normal as a single mom. I was cordial to the cheater socially, but would never ever choose to be friends or interact with someone who so dedicated to dishonesty.

 

In another case, the cheater was someone dear to me. I was honest about my opinion of the behavior. That behavior was never really repented, but after the conversation in which I stated my opinion I have never brought it up again. I continue to interact with this person, and we actually get along decently. This and other poor behavior choices have made it clear that I can never trust this person, though. Our interactions are limited to that of acquaintances.

[Guest]

Thanks, Scarlett -- I think I have misunderstood quite a bit about the family dynamic involved here.

 

The whole situation is so foreign to me, so I probably shouldn't even be trying to offer advice, but hey, since I'm already here... ;)

 

I'm just trying to picture him showing up at Thanksgiving with his new girlfriend and no one asking where his wife is.

 

In my own family, it never would have been a secret, so it's hard for me to understand the mentality. I don't know why the parents wouldn't be told about it -- it certainly involves them if they have any relationship at all with their DIL, and it seems incredibly odd to me that Cheater Dude would try to keep that kind of secret from his own parents.

 

My comments were based on how I thought Quill should deal with the couple, considering that the wife is still hoping for reconciliation. If she has a good relationship with her parents, I would have assumed that she would have already talked to them about the whole thing. (And if I was Quill's mom and found out later on that she knew what was going on and didn't tell me, I would be very angry!)

 

Yeah, well, picture it, because stranger things have happened.  :glare:

 

He lives in another state, so that is one thing that makes it easier for him to keep the facts quiet, at least from those of us here on the east coast. When he told me (around June) that they were separated, my mother was just diagnosed with breast cancer, so it's perhaps a bit more understandable that he would not want to lay a burden on her at that time. But make no mistake, our family culture is secretive - BIG time. I could tell you stories of things that were kept quiet that would strike you dumb. I bear the burden of some garbage I know about that I never told and it stinks. I don't want to add more stuff to the pile, but I also don't want to be a tale bearer.  This is literally why I wanted to ask about this on the board: I don't know what to do. I did not learn normal ways of reconciling bad behavior in my family culture. My parents have a very "NOTHINGS WRONG. NOTHINGS WRONG." denial way of dealing with anything they don't like. They also esteem my brother highly and will not want to see that he could be such an ass. 

 

I still haven't decided: 1) What to do with him specifically; call him and see what he'll tell me of his own accord? Wait? Call him and tell him I have heard something really unattractive and would like him to explain?  2) Whether to ask my parents if they know he's served her with divorce papers; whether or not to see if they know why; whether or not to inform them if they don't. 

[Guest]

 

Did you have a good relationship with your brother before he cheated on his wife? 

 

And yes, I did, although because we live far from each other, I didn't see him much. But I adored him. He's smart and witty; he's a brain who likes to read and write and discuss things. Out of my four sibs, he has the personality most similar to mine. So, I feel betrayed in a fashion, too. He is not as I believed him to be. 

[Mom in High Heels]

I don't get all the "telling."  It's not her place to tell.  Sibling, friend, bridesmaid, whatever, it's not her marriage.  If her brother chooses not to tell, that's his business.  I'm sure her parents aren't complete idiots though.  Should they bring it up, then that's a different story, but IMO, she doesn't have to right to tell anyone.  We had a very similar situation in James Bond's family.  I won't get into the details, but it was an ugly ugly situation with JB's brother having an affair.  His wife was a friend of mine before I met JB.  Staying out of it was hard, but in the end, it was the best choice.  It wasn't our place to say anything.  Trust me, the truth did come out.

[Catwoman]

And yes, I did, although because we live far from each other, I didn't see him much. But I adored him. He's smart and witty; he's a brain who likes to read and write and discuss things. Out of my four sibs, he has the personality most similar to mine. So, I feel betrayed in a fashion, too. He is not as I believed him to be.

 

Now that I have read this post, I have changed my feelings somewhat.

 

First of all, your brother didn't betray you. No way. No how. Not at all.

 

He cheated on his wife. OK, you think the wife is a wonderful person, but maybe she's a lot different when she's alone at home with your brother. Or maybe he's just an idiot when it comes to the whole marriage and monogamy thing. Whatever the case, it's none of your business.

 

IMO, there is no excuse for cheating, so I'm not giving your brother a pass on this, but he's your brother. Your SIL is a friend. There is a big difference there. You say he's not as you believed him to be, but maybe it's time to recognize that even your wonderful brother has some flaws. He is still the same person he always was. You're just viewing him differently right now because of the current circumstances.

 

If you and your brother are close, why not just give him a call and ask him how he's doing? Why not listen to his side of the story? Maybe your SIL isn't as innocent as you think she is. You just don't know for sure. Of course, you can tell him that you don't agree with his choices, but you should also remind him that he's still your brother and you still love him. In all honesty, I would never side with your SIL until I'd heard your brothers side of the story.

 

And if your brother has always been a great guy, why would you want him to be ratted out to your parents? Why would you want to get him into trouble with them?

 

I was under the mistaken impression that your brother was some sort of Bad Seed, but it sounds like he's an otherwise terrific guy whose marriage has hit the skids.

 

I don't see why that would affect your relationship with him. :confused:

[Scarlett]

Now that I have read this post, I have changed my feelings somewhat.

 

First of all, your brother didn't betray you. No way. No how. Not at all.

 

He cheated on his wife. OK, you think the wife is a wonderful person, but maybe she's a lot different when she's alone at home with your brother. Or maybe he's just an idiot when it comes to the whole marriage and monogamy thing. Whatever the case, it's none of your business.

 

IMO, there is no excuse for cheating, so I'm not giving your brother a pass on this, but he's your brother. Your SIL is a friend. There is a big difference there. You say he's not as you believed him to be, but maybe it's time to recognize that even your wonderful brother has some flaws. He is still the same person he always was. You're just viewing him differently right now because of the current circumstances.

 

If you and your brother are close, why not just give him a call and ask him how he's doing? Why not listen to his side of the story? Maybe your SIL isn't as innocent as you think she is. You just don't know for sure. Of course, you can tell him that you don't agree with his choices, but you should also remind him that he's still your brother and you still love him. In all honesty, I would never side with your SIL until I'd heard your brothers side of the story.

 

And if your brother has always been a great guy, why would you want him to be ratted out to your parents? Why would you want to get him into trouble with them?

 

I was under the mistaken impression that your brother was some sort of Bad Seed, but it sounds like he's an otherwise terrific guy whose marriage has hit the skids.

 

I don't see why that would affect your relationship with him. :confused:

My relationships with people are very much affected when they lose their moral compass. I don't hang around or otherwise indicate support or approval of people who are blatantly destroying a marriage. Divorcing ones mate while having an affair isn't a marriage hitting the skids.

 

Quill not sure what you should do since your mom is sick...in MY family my mom would be FURIOUS if this was kept from her even if she was on her death bed...but your family is clearly different and I can see where you might not want to attempt a change at this stage of the game.

[Erin]

Close friend of mine was left by her husband for another woman. 

I've always found it extremely interesting that her former MIL chose sides and chose hers, not her ex-husband's.  I mean, she is still cordial to her son, invites him for family functions, etc. but she is still very close to my friend and has made it abundantly clear that by betraying his marriage vows, her son betrayed everyone who ever loved him.  

 

Frankly, I think that's how I would respond in such a situation.  I mean, if your spouse can't trust you, no one can...

 

 

 

Quill, in your current spot, I can guarantee I would call.  But then, my brother is my only sibling and I adore my SIL.  I wouldn't be able to just sit and watch while he destroyed her and their family.  I would take the bull by the horns and tell him the scuttlebutt and require an explanation.  

[Catwoman]

Close friend of mine was left by her husband for another woman.

I've always found it extremely interesting that her former MIL chose sides and chose hers, not her ex-husband's. I mean, she is still cordial to her son, invites him for family functions, etc. but she is still very close to my friend and has made it abundantly clear that by betraying his marriage vows, her son betrayed everyone who ever loved him.

 

Frankly, I think that's how I would respond in such a situation. I mean, if your spouse can't trust you, no one can...

 

I would never choose a DIL over my own son. I might be angry with him and think he did a terrible thing, but in the end, he's my son and I love him, and that's that.

 

I can't even imagine losing all trust in my son because he did something wrong in his marriage.

 

I want my son to be able to come to me and talk to me, and know that I will love him even if he does something like cheat on his wife. Obviously, I hope it never happens, but I never want him to worry that I will be so judgmental that I would cast him aside over something like that.

 

Additionally, I don't understand the idea that if a man cheats on his wife, he has somehow betrayed everyone who has ever loved him. I think that is absolutely ludicrous. He betrayed his wife. No one else. He may have disappointed some people in his life, but he hasn't betrayed them.

[Scarlett]

Close friend of mine was left by her husband for another woman.

I've always found it extremely interesting that her former MIL chose sides and chose hers, not her ex-husband's. I mean, she is still cordial to her son, invites him for family functions, etc. but she is still very close to my friend and has made it abundantly clear that by betraying his marriage vows, her son betrayed everyone who ever loved him.

 

Frankly, I think that's how I would respond in such a situation. I mean, if your spouse can't trust you, no one can...

 

 

 

Quill, in your current spot, I can guarantee I would call. But then, my brother is my only sibling and I adore my SIL. I wouldn't be able to just sit and watch while he destroyed her and their family. I would take the bull by the horns and tell him the scuttlebutt and require for an explanation.

Exactly. All of it. I KNOW I would call...and I would tell our parents. I have done so.

[8circles]

I would never choose a DIL over my own son. I might be angry with him and think he did a terrible thing, but in the end, he's my son and I love him, and that's that.

 

I can't even imagine losing all trust in my son because he did something wrong in his marriage.

 

I want my son to be able to come to me and talk to me, and know that I will love him even if he does something like cheat on his wife. Obviously, I hope it never happens, but I never want him to worry that I will be so judgmental that I would cast him aside over something like that.

 

Additionally, I don't understand the idea that if a man cheats on his wife, he has somehow betrayed everyone who has ever loved him. I think that is absolutely ludicrous. He betrayed his wife. No one else. He may have disappointed some people in his life, but he hasn't betrayed them.

 

I gotta agree with you, Cat.  The only person that can betray me with cheating is my own spouse, certainly not my brother.  

 

Yet I don't this it's totally non of my business either.  It just isn't cutting-ties worthy.  If this were my brother, I'd not mince any words telling him what I thought about (my understanding of) what happened in their marriage & he'd either set me straight or get angry with me or... whatever & we'd go from there.  But I wouldn't consider cutting ties with my brother if he cheated in his marriage.  It isn't my marriage.  & while I wouldn't go running to my parents to spill the beans, I would make no effort whatsoever to keep the secret.  It isn't my responsibility to do that.  If it's out, it's out & it must be dealt with.  It would be my brothers problem & me keeping the secret would be taking it on as my problem.  I think that's a form of enabling that I don't think is healthy.

 

There aren't only two options: 1) cut ties, he's a bastard or 2) non of your business so do nothing.  This is just one of many sucky things that people do in life.  Deal with it in as healthy a way as possible, loving those you love.

[Harriet Vane]

 

Additionally, I don't understand the idea that if a man cheats on his wife, he has somehow betrayed everyone who has ever loved him. I think that is absolutely ludicrous. He betrayed his wife. No one else. He may have disappointed some people in his life, but he hasn't betrayed them.

 

This goes back to the way a cheater lives. There is a level of dishonesty that bleeds into all of a cheater's life. There has to be, in order for him to maintain the affair. You simply cannot be a perfectly honorable person while at the same time lying on that level. It's a betrayal of the marriage vows, yes, but it's also a series of many daily choices to be dishonest. That IS a reflection of a person's character. It IS a reflection of who they are, of who they have chosen to be.

 

In addition, the guilt the cheater carries about his choices--both the betrayal (which is also a series of many betrayals) and about the dishonesty--the guilt causes the cheater to act out. Cheaters treat people badly, because they desperately need to be able to blame other people for their own choices. After all, it's much more understandable if the person cheats because of how awful their spouse is. Over time, the spouse may actually act just as crazy or awful as the cheater says they are--because it is very, very hard to live under the constant criticism and bad behavior of the cheater without getting cranky, too.

 

Cheating in much more than a betrayal of a promise. It's a lifestyle. It's a series of daily moral decisions on a large and a small scale. As such, it is a reflection of the cheater's character.

 

[Erin]

Maybe I'm missing something.

Who's "cutting ties?"

 

 

 

Cheating in much more than a betrayal of a promise. It's a lifestyle. It's a series of daily moral decisions on a large and a small scale. As such, it is a reflection of the cheater's character.

Exactly.  Cheating is the betrayal of the most important promise most of us will ever make.  I mean, I don't know about anyone else, but it's the only promise I've ever made in front of my family and friends, swearing "forever."   

[Scarlett]

I would never choose a DIL over my own son. I might be angry with him and think he did a terrible thing, but in the end, he's my son and I love him, and that's that.

 

I can't even imagine losing all trust in my son because he did something wrong in his marriage.

 

I want my son to be able to come to me and talk to me, and know that I will love him even if he does something like cheat on his wife. Obviously, I hope it never happens, but I never want him to worry that I will be so judgmental that I would cast him aside over something like that.

 

Additionally, I don't understand the idea that if a man cheats on his wife, he has somehow betrayed everyone who has ever loved him. I think that is absolutely ludicrous. He betrayed his wife. No one else. He may have disappointed some people in his life, but he hasn't betrayed them.

I dont think I would cast my son aside, but he would definitely know that I do not support adultery and if he cast his wife aside for another woman, I would support his wife. I would have a very difficult time accepting or being cordial to a woodman involved in destroying my sons marriage.

 

And I am one who believes adultery doesn't just hurt the spouse. Its pain is far reaching.

[Scarlett]

Maybe I'm missing something.

Who's "cutting ties?"

 

Exactly. Cheating is the betrayal of the most important promise most of us will ever make. I mean, I don't know about anyone else, but it's the only promise I've ever made in front of my family and friends, swearing "forever."

Right...I don't think I would do that....but it would definitely affect my relationship with said person.

[Impish]

Judgey McJudgerson here.

 

It absolutley *would* affect my feelings towards someone, and our relationship if I found out they were cheating on their spouse.

 

I'm of the opinion that your spouse is the one person that you should be closest, most honest, most honourable, reliable, trustworthy w/. The whole, 'forsaking all others' gig.

 

So, if you can betray *that* person...betraying others wouldn't cause a moment's pause.

 

Marriages end. I get it. And, it sucks when it does. BUT, there's a way to end things respectfully, w/some sort of honour, rather than betrayal, lies, and scuzzy behaviour.

[Murphy101]

Nm

[KungFuPanda]

I dont think I would cast my son aside, but he would definitely know that I do not support adultery and if he cast his wife aside for another woman, I would support his wife. I would have a very difficult time accepting or being cordial to a woodman involved in destroying my sons marriage.

And I am one who believes adultery doesn't just hurt the spouse. Its pain is far reaching.

Why is the woodman involved in your son's marriage?

 

 

I'm in the "an affair is a symptom" camp. Granted, it may be a symptom of your brother being a selfish, immature jerk, BUT only the people IN the marriage know what really goes on. I don't see the OP as having an active role in this situation. You could listen if someone wants to talk, but this isn't really your news to share. You could, on moral grounds, cut adulterers out of your life, but you'd only be eliminating the ones you KNOW about.

[TracyP]

And yes, I did, although because we live far from each other, I didn't see him much. But I adored him. He's smart and witty; he's a brain who likes to read and write and discuss things. Out of my four sibs, he has the personality most similar to mine. So, I feel betrayed in a fashion, too. He is not as I believed him to be. 

 

I wouldn't be so quick to jump to this conclusion. I posted earlier about my dad. I learned a few bad things about my dad at the time of his affair. I learned that he is selfish. I learned that he didn't understand "work on your marriage". He didn't control his impulses.

 

As time has gone on, I learned a few other things. I learned that my dad and my mom never felt they should have been married. They were young and from controlling families. Their marriage was a way out for both of them. I learned that my mom felt she was too naive to ever be a true partner in their marriage. This does not make what my dad did OK. He screwed up big time, but this didn't happen in a vacuum.

 

My dad has been married to the "other woman" for over 10 years. They are obviously very happy together even though I still kind of hate her. (I am trying to get over it, it is a slow road) My mom is in a happy marriage. She hates how the divorce happened. She hates that it wrecked her picture of forever. She hates the impact on us kids. She would have stayed and worked it out. BUT she admits that she wasn't happily married. I wish they could have found a way to be happily married together, but it didn't work out that way.

 

All this to say, your brother hasn't changed. Something happened to get to this point. Whether it was simply selfishness or a deeper issue in his marriage is hard to say. You may always look at him a bit differently - especially if it was mostly selfishness. But he is still your brother.

[Scarlett]

Why is the woodman involved in your son's marriage?

 

 

I'm in the "an affair is a symptom" camp. Granted, it may be a symptom of your brother being a selfish, immature jerk, BUT only the people IN the marriage know what really goes on. I don't see the OP as having an active role in this situation. You could listen if someone wants to talk, but this isn't really your news to share. You could, on moral grounds, cut adulterers out of your life, but you'd only be eliminating the ones you KNOW about.

Ha ha make that a woman not a woodman.

[Trish]

If you have a closer relationship to the cheater, I imagine you would keep your opinion to yourself unless asked for advice. There are a lot of moral issues that adults decide for themselves, so unless it's negatively impacting you and your family in a way you can do something about, I don't see the point of saying/doing anything in particular. You may even have your own moral issues that you wouldn't want this person commenting on unless you asked his/her opinion, yes?

 

If there are specific decisions to be made (i.e do we invite this person to a wedding knowing the ex will be there, then you would deal with those on a case by case basis)

[Trish]

Cat I think she is saying he won't tell his parents and the family culture dictates that no one else will either.

 

I would tell them. 

 

To what end? If the wife doesn't choose to tell her in-laws, what would the purpose in someone else informing them? So they can feel worse about the divorce and their son? So they can have built-in bad feelings about the new girlfriend/spouse? So they can act appropriately cool toward both of them?

 

Again, for what purpose?

[Joanne]

So, i'm a little confused about this 'its not your marriage'.  If you see one person treating another person really badly, you have an opinion.  Truthfully, for me, cheating and realizing you were mistaken is understandable. Cheating and realizing you need to divorce is understandable.  Cheating and abusing and cheating again and walking out without making any attempt to do the right thing by the spouse, thats something that makes me realize i dont want this person in my life. I dont want to have a relationship with someone who is abusive.  If you arent happy in your marriage, tell your spouse you want a divorce, but dont run around and lie and make them look like the bad guy and the vanish without telling them.  I dont care if they are blood, i dont want abusive people in my life.

 

Having appropriate boundaries does not mean endorsement, passive acceptance, or tolerance. It doesn't even mean you won't have judgment, opinion, or evaluation.

 

It simply means an active acknowledgement that it is not your marriage, your business, or your role to position yourself in a place of mentoring, accountability, leader, or authority in another person's marriage.

 

Many times people who "get involved" on some level do so with the expectation that because the person "getting involved" is right about the proper course of action, the other person will fall in line. Let me give a different, but not totally "out there" example. Often a spouse of a substance abusing person will issue an ultimatum; get sober or I leave. The problem is that if you issue that ultimatum with the expectation that it will make the other person change or "realize the problem", it is not a boundary. The key is to come to the mental space where the "get sober or get out" is because the person saying it has realized the need for safety and stability - and they say it as an actual *choice*, not a passive/aggressive attempt to change or motivate the substance abuser.

In the case of the married cheater, you can pretty much count on them already knowing what most people will think of their choices. Saying something from a religious, moral, or principled standpoint won't change anything. Each person in the cheater's circle will need to decide individually to what degree they want to be in relationship - and to make those decisions without the expectation that the cheater will "change" or "get it."

 

In most cases, I would personally choose "cordial but distant" because cheating - especially in the early months and years - creates a dynamic that is terribly destructive and unhealthy and I do not wish to be involved or around. I would not have the guarded, distant limits with the intent of the cheater changing.

 

Does that make more sense?

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

ITA with everything Scarlett has said. I also believe that if adulterers were publicly shamed there would be less of them.

 

I understand the "hate the sin, love the sinner" mentality, but with my SIL? My in-law's attitude with her makes her think that they've forgiven her when she hasn't repented! So she can't understand why Dh is insisting on holding her accountable for her actions until she actually repents (and repents for lying to us as well.) Pretty much she's gotten away with it so she doesn't see negative consequences. (Besides losing contact with us.)

 

 

Added: The rest of the family knew what was going on before Dh and I were told. Because we didn't know it allowed SIL to lie to us about why they were divorcing. So when we found out the truth, we were extra pissed for being lied to by the cheater. I think all family members should be made aware so that they can't be lied to and hurt worse.

[elfgivas]

:grouphug: :grouphug:

 

its just hard.  very hard.

 

i think there are separate issues here, which in some bizarre way makes it easier, because you can deal with them separately if you choose.

 

issue one: family culture of secrecy.

issue two: how to respond to db.

 

issue one: sometimes, illness gives a chance for change that is positive.  story time: my father's sister suffered from a severe medical event while visiting friends near where i was living.  i helped.  several YEARS later, at a family event, i my mom how auntie was doing with dialysis, and there was silence.... she had told NO-ONE.  how is that possible?  i spent weeks spinning my wheels, and then finally started calling close relatives, mentioning how our family had this medical secrets thing, and how destructive it could be, and committing myself to telling them what was going on with my health.  i also "signed" a communication pact with one of my cousins; we committed ourselves to keeping the other informed about our respective parents who were siblings.  we let everyone know.  and it has changed.  it has taken close to thirty years, but it is Much Better.  we focused on how hard it is to support someone you love when you don't know they might need it, and how it felt like a breach of relationship to hide life-changing things.

 

issue two:  for me, it was my dad.  and my brother.  and my xdh.  with my dad and my brother, i focused on statements of impact rather than statements of judgement.  i finished "the talk" with a commitment to continued relationship with all parties.  i confessed that i didn't know what that would look like, but that i loved them and that they would always be my dad/brother/mom/sisterinlaw.  i journalled "the talk" for several weeks before giving it.  my parents tried to make me choose between them.  i refused.  it was a rocky three years, but almost twenty years later, i still have relationships with everyone.  i also chose to not discuss x-spouses with the other.  ever.  or to carry messages.  ever.  

 

so i've talked about me, because i don't really "know" you and your situation.  i am hoping that in "overhearing" some of my story, it may resonate with you somehow.  i do think that having a Real Relationship means that I have to communicate what I'm thinking and feeling with those I'm in relationship with, otherwise, they are in a relationship with someone who isn't me, kwim?  not that I have to tell them Everything I think and feel, but for my dad and brother, i was willing to say how disappointed i was, and how hard it was to imagine family gatherings, etc, etc, etc. 

 

in the end, maybe it would help you to decide if you made a major faux pas, how would you like your brother to treat you?  and then go with that.

 

:grouphug:

ann

 

eta: re secrecy, i chose the path i did, because i needed to choose emotional health for me.  folks had the choice to not tell me things.  they didn't, but they could have.

 

[Erin]

I agree also.  (What is going on with quotes lately?!?!)

 

I mean, I don't think one necessarily has to publicly shame someone like the scarlet letter or something (not sure if that's actually what you were suggesting), but that exposure is rarely good for a cheating relationship.  

 

In most cases, half of what is driving that new "relationship" is the thrill of the secrecy and risk of discovery.  Something like 80% of cheating relationships don't survive the first 6 months after exposure.  

 

Besides if there's nothing wrong with the new relationship, why does it need to be kept a secret?  Let's get it out there, so everyone can share in your new-found love!  :)

 

ITA with everything Scarlett has said. I also believe that if adulterers were publicly shamed there would be less of them. 

[Scarlett]

I wouldn't be so quick to jump to this conclusion. I posted earlier about my dad. I learned a few bad things about my dad at the time of his affair. I learned that he is selfish. I learned that he didn't understand "work on your marriage". He didn't control his impulses.

 

As time has gone on, I learned a few other things. I learned that my dad and my mom never felt they should have been married. They were young and from controlling families. Their marriage was a way out for both of them. I learned that my mom felt she was too naive to ever be a true partner in their marriage. This does not make what my dad did OK. He screwed up big time, but this didn't happen in a vacuum.

 

My dad has been married to the "other woman" for over 10 years. They are obviously very happy together even though I still kind of hate her. (I am trying to get over it, it is a slow road) My mom is in a happy marriage. She hates how the divorce happened. She hates that it wrecked her picture of forever. She hates the impact on us kids. She would have stayed and worked it out. BUT she admits that she wasn't happily married. I wish they could have found a way to be happily married together, but it didn't work out that way.

 

All this to say, your brother hasn't changed. Something happened to get to this point. Whether it was simply selfishness or a deeper issue in his marriage is hard to say. You may always look at him a bit differently - especially if it was mostly selfishness. But he is still your brother.

I had a similar situation in my first marriage....I wouldn't say I was overly happy with my marriage, but I had made vow and was determined to stick it out. And I am very happy with my current husband....but we were asked the other day if we were glad it worked out this way....we both said no. We would have preferred to keep our kids FOO intact.

[Annie Anne]

 My parents have a very "NOTHINGS WRONG. NOTHINGS WRONG." denial way of dealing with anything they don't like. They also esteem my brother highly and will not want to see that he could be such an ass. 

Knowing this is it safe to say they will not want to know more than he is divorcing? They, themselves, may decide it was her fault just so they can say nothing is wrong with their son.

[Scarlett]

To what end? If the wife doesn't choose to tell her in-laws, what would the purpose in someone else informing them? So they can feel worse about the divorce and their son? So they can have built-in bad feelings about the new girlfriend/spouse? So they can act appropriately cool toward both of them?

 

Again, for what purpose?

Let me put it to you this way. I consider adultery to be morally wrong, and destructive to a wide pool of people---not just the married couple. The two people involved in adultery should not be allowed to cover up that morally wrong behavior. People have the right to know what they are dealing with. I wouldn't like it if someone hid from me that a new girlfriend/ boyfriend was a thief either.

[Χά�ων]

Take a deep breath. There marital difficulties are non of your business, let them work out their marriage difficulties on their own. If you want to maintain a friendship with your soon to be ex-relative do so.

 

In my family every one of my parents siblings have been divorced for various reasons, including affairs. Siblings along with their ex-spouses and even their ex-spouses current spouses and families are all welcome at all extended family events. They still a huge part of the family and treated as family members. This is also the case among family friends. I cannot image being so petty as to be involved in someone else's marriage difficulties or no longer speaking to someone because of a change in marital status.

 

[Scarlett]

Knowing this is it safe to say they will not want to know more than he is divorcing? They, themselves, may decide it was her fault just so they can say nothing is wrong with their son.

Well I would not be party to letting them ' decide' that their DIL was at fault.

[QueenCat]

That is part of why this is difficult for me. My family is and has always been secretive and I don't know what my role is. Part of me feels it's his bed, let him lie in it, but part of me knows he will not tell the whole situation. He will want to still look good by my parents. I can't imagine any scenario where he would own the specific reason he is leaving her, even if he goes as far as to say he is leaving her. 

 

I also think that it makes a difference that theirs was a Christian wedding. The witnesses to the wedding are *supposed* to be holding the couple in some accountability. They're (we're) not supposed to shrug our shoulders and say it's none of our business.

 

ETA: I can't believe I committed a "their" faux pas! ;)

 

Just remember that he is still your parents child. Is there anything your child could do that would make you not love him/her, or not be there for them, even if you did not approve of their actions? I would be sad if my child ever cheated on a spouse but they are still my child, and I can't imagine not being there for them.

 

[QueenCat]

I still haven't decided: 1) What to do with him specifically; call him and see what he'll tell me of his own accord? Wait? Call him and tell him I have heard something really unattractive and would like him to explain?  2) Whether to ask my parents if they know he's served her with divorce papers; whether or not to see if they know why; whether or not to inform them if they don't. 

 

You call him, tell him you love him, always, no matter what. You tell him what you've heard, and listen to his side of the story, as it may be different than what you've been told. If you are disappointed in his actions, you let him know, but you remind him again, that you will always love him. You ask if your parents know, so that you will be aware, should they say something to you about it.

 

That is what I'd do in your shoes....

[Annie Anne]

Well I would not be party to letting them ' decide' that their DIL was at fault.

 

I've had to do that. It is not fun.

[Guest]

Man. I don't know. I have a jumble of thoughts here with the two opposing viewpoints and I'm about to leave for class.

 

First, I agree with Scarlet and Harriett Vane that cheating in a marriage speaks to a person's character. Fine - if SIL is an ax murderer or a pig's snout, I can see how that would drive someone to leave, but repeated, intentional cheating speaks to a person's character. That DOES affect how I feel about being close to someone. If I found out you embezzed from your company, my opinion of you as a trustworthy friend would also be affected. I cannot sit there and say, "Well,  it's not my company they stole from, so it's none of my business...." No. It shows the person will continually sneak and deceive. If you will do that to someone else, you will deceive/sneak/lie in your relationship with me, too. 

 

Second, I'm not "cutting ties" with anyone. That's absurd. But I'm not going to smile and nod while he posts junk on FB about going here, there and everywhere with this other chick. It revolts me. 

 

Third, not bringing it up around my parents, yet not keeping it quiet creates a lot of grey area. I already know this. Suppose I knew mom was planningg to send a birthday gift to SIL? Should I just say nothing if her address has changed? Say, "Oh, her address is changed," with no explanation why it's changed? It's too weird. I'm planning to tell them. This much I have decided, though I'm going to talk to DB first and see what is "his side" of the story. 

 

I'd like to explore this more, but I'm outta time. Bye all. 

[Scarlett]

Just remember that he is still your parents child. Is there anything your child could do that would make you not love him/her, or not be there for them, even if you did not approve of their actions? I would be sad if my child ever cheated on a spouse but they are still my child, and I can't imagine not being there for them.

 

I think you can still let your child ( or any loved one) know you love them and want what is best for them while strongly encouraging them to do the right thing or stop doing a wrong thing. And if a person in my life continued on such a path I would quietly pull back in my interactions with them. That is because i choose to be around people who are striving to live morally.

 

If my son divorced his wife to marry or be with an adultery partner I would not deal with it well at all.

[Scarlett]

Man. I don't know. I have a jumble of thoughts here with the two opposing viewpoints and I'm about to leave for class.

 

First, I agree with Scarlet and Harriett Vane that cheating in a marriage speaks to a person's character. Fine - if SIL is an ax murderer or a pig's snout, I can see how that would drive someone to leave, but repeated, intentional cheating speaks to a person's character. That DOES affect how I feel about being close to someone. If I found out you embezzed from your company, my opinion of you as a trustworthy friend would also be affected. I cannot sit there and say, "Well, it's not my company they stole from, so it's none of my business...." No. It shows the person will continually sneak and deceive. If you will do that to someone else, you will deceive/sneak/lie in your relationship with me, too.

 

Second, I'm not "cutting ties" with anyone. That's absurd. But I'm not going to smile and nod while he posts junk on FB about going here, there and everywhere with this other chick. It revolts me.

 

Third, not bringing it up around my parents, yet not keeping it quiet creates a lot of grey area. I already know this. Suppose I knew mom was planningg to send a birthday gift to SIL? Should I just say nothing if her address has changed? Say, "Oh, her address is changed," with no explanation why it's changed? It's too weird. I'm planning to tell them. This much I have decided, though I'm going to talk to DB first and see what is "his side" of the story.

 

I'd like to explore this more, but I'm outta time. Bye all.

Good for you Quill. I think you will be relieved to not be keeping such an ugly secret.