Oldest dd wwyd...again...

[BakersDozen]

Sigh. Big, big, big sigh. Things have been quiet and calm since the discussions with 17yod regarding the upcoming fundraising dinner and her involvement. Plan was for her to attend 3.5 hours on Friday, make up 3 hours of work on Sunday. Fine, great, all is right with the world...HA!

 

This afternoon I walked past her room and noticed the door to her cabinet open in such a way that she, sitting in front of her cabinet, could not be seen. The door usually is not like this so I walked in and found her with earbuds on, listening to her Quiz stuff. She says listening to it helps her study (she was doing her U.S. History). Now, this is a girl who insists she must work in her room because of the noise in the house. We have discussed how the human brain typically focuses better on one topic/subject (at least when schoolwork is concerned) and she herself acknowledged that she gets distracted with music (hence no radios on during school). So how is this child supposed to study for her History and also study for her Quiz at the same time?

 

I am so disheartened by this. I have had to take Quiz booklets away before as I found not only her but her sister sneaking time in when they should have done school. I have kept them home from Quiz (a serious offense as they can only miss so many practices before they then miss the meets).

 

What do I do?? I strongly feel she was hiding, knowing I would disapprove. She has already lost the privilege of working in her room for school. Do I end with that? Or keep her home from Quiz? The next event is this Saturday - a meet that involves teams. This sickens my heart and makes me so.stinking.angry. She agreed to have time in the evening to study her Quiz stuff. I purposefully did not have her make up Friday's work this week so she could have time to study Quiz. And yet she pulls this cr*p during the day.

 

WWYD?

[unsinkable]

I'd do nothing.

 

Her ( posible poor ) showing in the quiz thingy and ( possible poor) history grades will reflect her work ethic.

[Seasider]

I would not attempt to micromanage her time. She has goals. The expectations have been set before her, she knows what they are.

 

What I *would* do is let her fail. She has not learned from your lecture that she's trying to do too much. She needs the field trip for the lesson to take root.

 

But be prepared for her to surprise you with her success on all fronts. She sounds like a highly motivated young lady.

[*Lulu*]

I would do the following:

 

-Enforce the house rules about distractions during school time

-Either apply the house consequence for breaking the rule OR inform her that next infraction would result in the consequence (especially if the rule has never been very clearly laid out)

-Allow her to sink or swim with her quiz meet

 

While it is hard to watch, some of the most lasting lessons are learned by a good, self-generated, fall on the backside.

 

[fairfarmhand]

I'd just stick to "work only out of your room."

 

That would be the end of it. I would not keep her home from the meet. This is a relatively minor thing. She just needs a reminder. "Focus on only schoolwork during school time. "

[Parrothead]

I'm not one to micromanage study hours. if it were dd she could study for whatever however worked best for her.

 

I'm not sure I see anything wrong by doing History and listening to Quiz info. As long as she is not cheating I wouldn't worry about it.

[Lady Florida.]

I'd do nothing.

 

I would not attempt to micromanage her time. She has goals. The expectations have been set before her, she knows what they are.

 

What I *would* do is let her fail..

 

 

I agree. She's 17? She either needs to stand on her own or fail. If she fails, maybe that will help her realize she needs to re-evaluate some things, or her way of doing things. If she succeeds, congratulate her.

[Joker]

My oldest is only 13, but I honestly can't imagine doing anything for that when they are 17. I don't do anything even now when I find my 13 yr old not giving 100% to school work. She doesn't like making bad grades, so she usually ends up correcting her own behavior.

[BakersDozen]

I'm not sure I see anything wrong by doing History and listening to Quiz info.

The thing that is bothering my heart is the seeming deceit/sneaking. A time for studying Quiz has been established. We've discussed not listening to stuff during school hours. I feel like I've worked with this child, compromised, made time...and it is not enough (sounds like my last post).

[*Lulu*]

I'm not one to micromanage study hours. if it were dd she could study for whatever however worked best for her.

 

I'm not sure I see anything wrong by doing History and listening to Quiz info. As long as she is not cheating I wouldn't worry about it.

 

While I agree with this, if we have an established house rule or policy it doesn't just get chunked without so much as a conversation.

 

I think at 17 it is totally acceptable for her to study in any way that does not violate the study space of her siblings or cause damage to the family. She may make a mess of it for a time, but some of us only learn from cleaning up our own disasters.

[Forget-Me-Not]

Gently--from the info you've shared recently:

 

1. It sounds as though you micromanage her time and study habits; and

2. You're driving each other crazy right now.

 

She's 17. She's on the cusp of adulthood. Maybe it's time to let go a little bit and let her manage some of this herself?

[unsinkable]

The thing that is bothering my heart is the seeming deceit/sneaking. A time for studying Quiz has been established. We've discussed not listening to stuff during school hours. I feel like I've worked with this child, compromised, made time...and it is not enough (sounds like my last post).

 

words like sneak and deceit are very loaded, IMO, for this board. You pull those words out and posters will come out of the woodwork to support you.

 

She's 17. I think she is old enough to control her study habits.

[Jan in SC]

The thing that is bothering my heart is the seeming deceit/sneaking. A time for studying Quiz has been established. We've discussed not listening to stuff during school hours. I feel like I've worked with this child, compromised, made time...and it is not enough (sounds like my last post).

 

I don't think a 17 year old should feel the need to be sneaky and deceitful with what she is studying. If she really feels the need to do that, I think you might be micromanaging her time too much.

 

 

[*Lulu*]

The thing that is bothering my heart is the seeming deceit/sneaking. A time for studying Quiz has been established. We've discussed not listening to stuff during school hours. I feel like I've worked with this child, compromised, made time...and it is not enough (sounds like my last post).

 

 

I would really strongly suggest allowing her as much freedom in governing her life as you can. I wouldn't necessarily let her off the hook if she broke a rule, but I would begin to turn over more to her. She may fail. She may succeed. She is at an age though where she needs to know that her failure or success is really on her.

[regentrude]

It would not occur to me to micromanage how a 17 year old studies. She is responsible for her results and should be able to choose whatever method she prefers. At this age, I would not establish "rules" when she can study or when she can listen to something - she is almost an adult.

 

Yes, it sometimes drives me nuts that DD is simultaneously working on physics homework, reading in her French book, chatting with friends on skype while listening to music, and all of this lying in bed. But as long as she can pull it off...

[OhanaBee]

My almost 18yo is a freshman at our local community college. I cringe when I walk in her room and she's studying Spanish, watching something on Hulu and texting her friends. But gosh darn if she didn't pull off a 4.0 last semester! I don't know how she did it. But at her age, she's the one who will pay the price if she doesn't study well. It's hard to bite my tongue when I see her making choices I'd rather she didn't. I'm not talking about the "life in danger choices" because, of course, all of on here would step in at that point. But at 17, they need to be able to make their own choices in life, with our words in their heads [because my two oldest daughters have told me that they ALWAYS know what I would think about something] and pay the consequences if that choice backfires. It's part of growing up [i hate it].

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Maybe consider some new tools to help with the transition?

 

Instead of a daily schedule, you need a longer-term syllabus. Take the emotion out of the daily interactions by providing a syllabus so she knows when each assignment is expected and how to turn it in, AND exactly what is expected for each project. It's your job to give the assignment and evaluate the assignment. It's her job to do the assignment, and you'll be happier if you don't worry about the how or the when. What you care about is whether it's emailed to you by next Thursday morning, 9:00 a.m.

 

I already mentioned email. You can have dd use other internet tools such as Word, Google docs, and a blog to keep her work organized and to easily share it with you. The built-in benefit of doing it this way is that all the work is automatically dated! So again, no emotional debate, it's either in the inbox (or on the blog) by a certain time and date or it's not.

[Koerarmoca]

Maybe I am reading the wrong way into this "quiz" is this like an academic team type thing?

 

If so I look at it like this

A. It's educational

B. she seems dedicated to it

C. She is 17 and is capable (or should be capable) of managing her own time

 

I understand she has other work to complete however I don't know what area I would give the highest priority to because I do not know what all "quiz" entails.

[unsinkable]

[because my two oldest daughters have told me that they ALWAYS know what I would think about something]

 

Indeed. My children, by the time they are teens, know where I stand on most topics.

 

I always find it funny that some parents who claim they know their children sooooo well never consider that their children know them just as well.

[5LittleMonkeys]

I know every child is different, but do you NEED to organize her to this extent?

 

I give my 15 and 14 yo dds a weekly schedule and let them sort out the when and how themselves. There are natural repercusions and mommy made consequences for not meeting those weekly goals...they've learned how to manage themselves.

 

Is she planning on going to college?

[DianeW88]

I'm not one to micromanage study hours. if it were dd she could study for whatever however worked best for her.

 

I'm not sure I see anything wrong by doing History and listening to Quiz info. As long as she is not cheating I wouldn't worry about it.

 

Totally agree. She's 17, right? She doesn't need mommy micromanaging her activities or schoolwork like that. At all. By the time my kids were that age, I did not interfere in their lives to that degree. They managed their schoolwork, they managed their time, they managed their extra-curriculars and their jobs, and drove themselves to back and forth to them. They basically told me where they were going and when to expect them back. They were good kids and I trusted them. They were both in college and on their own at 18. They needed to learn to handle their own lives before then. You're not doing her any favors by punishing for something that...quite frankly and very gently...sounds ridiculous to even get upset over.

[Dandelion]

She's 17. Old enough to manage her study time and be accountable for the results. IMO she should be given full ownership for all of that now so that she can learn to effectively handle her responsibilities before she goes out on her own.

 

I wouldn't do a thing.

 

ETA: Actually, I would do something. I would tell her how impressed I am with how seriously she's taking her Quiz studies. :) And then I'd back WAY off and give her lots of freedom to do things her way.

[Trish]

Look at the door as symbolic. You don't want her having to hide her real self from you going forward because you want things just so, and she is moving on to adulthood. If a big issue comes up, yes, it might make sense to butt in. But for this...this is not the clod of dirt I would choose to die on. What if you need to have a real conversation about a real issue? How will she take that seriously when you're trying to Manage Her Ear Buds?

[LostSurprise]

What you see as hiding/deceit may be a sign that your daughter needs some space to do things her own way. That is extremely age appropriate and I did not see any rudeness in her behavior, just a normal developmental experiment for someone moving into adulthood next year.

 

Is it so important for you to coordinate her study times? Allow her to develop her own internal motivations and style so she can be successful when you aren't there.

[justamouse]

Does she happen to have ADD? ADD kids study MUCH better with music blaring. I know, it grates typical people like nails on a chalkboard, but it's true, so it might just be something you have to get over.

[musicianmom]

She is 17. Micro-managing on this level is going to force her to "sneak" in order to have any autonomy, and also will prevent her from learning her own lessons about time management and prioritizing. I have known someone who grew up like this, and her adult life has not been successful. Please consider carefully how you respond in this situation.

[Melissa in Australia]

I let all my teens manage their own time. they know what they have to get done in the day. they work out when they are going to do it.

My Ds 19 went to live at Uni just short of 18. He is living at campus over 400 km away from me. He knew how to successfully use time management because he had been doing it for so long. He has told me that he thinks one of the reasons so many drop out/ struggle at uni is they are used to having someone (teacher mostly) breathing down their neck pushing them through everything. once they are on their own they don't know how to manage their time ( he also said they don't know how to study).

 

I got married at 18 and managed everything myself.

[BakersDozen]

Dd and I talked very amicably tonight. She needs some sort of sound while she works. Personally, I cannot understand how one can read something while having a voice speaking in one's ears and focus well on either source, but whatever works for her, I guess. She had the door open because of the subject she was working on and where it was in her room. I expressed that we had an understanding of balance as far as school/Quiz/etc. and she agreed. She said it would be easy for her to get so caught up on Quiz studying that all else would fall by the wayside (not a good balance) but that she had the Quiz stuff on just for noise, nothing else.

 

Micro-managing...I so appreciate this term being used and have pondered this all evening. Dd's weakness is structure. She asks me every year to help her set up a schedule because she gets easily overwhelmed thinking of everything that needs to get done, and ends up wasting time or doing nothing at all. I do that with her help/input (and again, only after she asks me...I do not offer), after which she has flexibility to change things (work ahead, skip a subject in favor of doing a different one, etc.). Once she sees a schedule/routine in place it's like she finds confidence in seeing how everything "fits" and takes off with her work independent of me for the most part. We also have an agreement that I pop in during the day and see how things are going: does she need help/have questions, etc. It's never been intrusive, more of a show that I'm here for her if need be. It helps keep her on track as she can get distracted (per her own words), especially when something big like Quiz comes up.

 

I'm relieved that she was not being deceitful because that is not like her at all, and that more than anything bothered me. So this is nothing like the time her younger sister thought she could hide her Quiz booklet in her math book and I wouldn't notice. :)

 

I will take everyone's advice and carefully consider how I am micro-managing and the effect it might be having. I appreciate the input and I know my dc do as well as they read your responses, too.

[Oakblossoms]

My husband has ADD and having something like music helps to relax the part of the brain and allows the other subject to trickle in.

 

And, honestly my gut reaction is that quizzing (they do that at our Nazarene church) is a strange thing for children to have to sneak. You should thank God and let that go. If anything you should really talk to someone, maybe your husband about that reaction.

 

[Joyofsixreboot]

At 17 I'm very much about letting them sink or swim on their own. I would have just directly said " Please don't lie to me (ie. try to hide.). I don't tell them what to do but I expect truth.

[JFSinIL]

I would not attempt to micromanage her time. She has goals. The expectations have been set before her, she knows what they are.

 

What I *would* do is let her fail. She has not learned from your lecture that she's trying to do too much. She needs the field trip for the lesson to take root.

 

But be prepared for her to surprise you with her success on all fronts. She sounds like a highly motivated young lady.

 

 

 

I agree - she is at the age when it is time for the parents to stop micro-managing and let the kids figure things out. She may well learn better with what we would find noisy distraction. You have made you point clear to her - now time to back off and let her sink or swim.

 

My kids are 21, 21, 19 and 17. Been there, done (and doing) that. ;-)

[Unicorn.]

Your dd sounds like she has ADD, (needing the voices to study, and lack of structure). Everyone in my house has ADD or AD/HD. My two w/ HD, both need to study w/ music on. I didn't let them for a long time, because I find the music incredibly distracting...I do need the tv on..for the voices. These two are also the ones that used to fight during the school day, because the other one was breathing too loud, or tapping a pencil, or their pencil made too much noise while writing.. etc. So allowing music seemed like it would be counter productive.

 

As to the structure and schedule- next time she asks your help to make a schedule-make her do it. Sit w/ her and let her tell you how to make a schedule. Ask her leading questions, but make her come up w/ the answers. (you probably already do, but...)

[bolt.]

It seems to me that if your 17yo daughter is still showing weakness in the skill areas of self-structuring and self-focusing ... You may have very little time left to pull the crutches out ... Before she enters the world under-equipped in this area.

 

Sometimes "help" isn't help. When a skill is weak, what strengthens it is a lot of situations of "Use your best judgement to make a guess at what might work for you, then carry on with that plan until you discover whether or not it works as intended." -- A variety of trial and error experiences are critical to that process, including the errors, and the feeling of, "I'm not going to do that plan next time! Look what a mess I'm in!" <-- That's the learning feeling.

 

Trial and error in the safety of younger schooling years puts the 'errors' and the resulting 'messes' in a place (home) where they are generally smaller and more manageable. As a child, Ypu can get rescued and comforted after a learning experience. That's different from being prevented from following any path that's likely to lead to a learned-by-messing-up event.

 

At 17, there aren't a lot of remaining opportunuities where trial and error experiments aren't going to lead to errors that are pretty big and scary.

 

It's a good idea to take the ones that pop up from now on.

 

It's not a good idea to let her carry on to the end of her hs education fully believing that good planning is too hard for her, and that the best solution is to find someone willing to serve her by structuring her life (or just assignments) on her behalf and relying in that person to stand in her way when her wish is to do something less wise about her time management. (Do you see how that plan, which has been a success in the home, has very little chance if bring a useful life skill in this area?)

[Kim in Appalachia]

words like sneak and deceit are very loaded, IMO, for this board. You pull those words out and posters will come out of the woodwork to support you.

 

She's 17. I think she is old enough to control her study habits.

 

:iagree:

 

You are seriously damaging your relationship with your dd. If my mom had treated me like that at 17 I would have slowly started hating/resenting her. At 17 I was working 20 hrs a week, keeping up with school and spending lots of time with my boyfriend. I had my own car and did my own thing. There were rules, sure, but they were more like boundries designed to help me, not control me.

 

You need to let it go and let your dd learn to manage her own life.

[Lady Florida.]

Thank you for the update. It's good that you two are able to calmly discuss the situation and try to find a solution. I hope you can work out a way for you to help her while still giving her the freedom to make her own mistakes.

 

FWIW, ds has ADHD, so I understand a little of your micromanaging. I try very hard not to do it myself. There are times he really *needs* someone on his back. He does take medication for it, and has reached a point where he can decide if he should take it on a particular day or not. Not saying your dd has it, I'm just saying I do understand how it's hard to let some kids just be on their own.

[Hikin' Mama]

You've been given lots of good advice. I can tell you are a loving mom who wants the best for her kids and wants them to be the best they can be. Part of that, though, includes allowing them to make their own decisions and allowing them to fail by some of those decisions, if that should happen. By the time my kids were your daughter's age (I've got two past that point), I tried to stick to moral issues only. And I say this gently, this wasn't a moral issue of going against your rules, it was a result of you trying to control things that aren't yours to control. Please take this as it was intended, with kindness from someone who has been there, done that. They really do have to figure these things out for themselves and your relationship with her will be better if you let her. Good luck, mama! Parenting kids this age can be tricky, but it has been one of my favorite stages of motherhood!

[MomatHWTK]

I used to have to have music and/or TV on with the sound at just the right setting in order to study at all. As far as scheduling, teach her to use a spread sheet, a weekly grid or some other sort of paper or computer scheduling program diligently. Checklists are very important to me for keeping on track. Especially when I was in college and beyond, I needed ongoing "To Do" lists that prioritized by urgency.

 

A day or week's schedule would list the appointments and items due that day and then a list of things coming up in order by their due date. So I didn't just put the date the term paper was due, I scheduled it out a week or so in advance- "due in 3 days," "due in 2 days," etc. I'd also indicate how much was left to complete for some work that was multi-step. That way I didn't end up having to do a 40 page paper overnight. If I needed to type it and was handwriting (back in the day) I moved up the due date on my schedule a day or two so that it was done and ready for typing early.

 

But always, I had other stuff going on in and around my head. If there wasn't a low level distraction to keep the wandering part of my mind occupied, it would wander. ;)