So many issues I don't know where to begin

[Mommyfaithe]

I haven't read the whole thread. I'll try to later.

 

School does not help kids like this. Back in the mid 90s, I became a homeschooler, just because of a kid like this, and home was better. Way better, no matter what I did. School was... :lol: Let's just say a staff member called me at home and pleaded with me to find another school for my kid because she was afraid the principal was going to hit him, and proceeded to tell me she wasn't worried about my son being hurt, but of the school losing a good principal that was being driven insane by my kid. :confused: :lol:

 

"Gifted" does not mean more productive. "Gifted" is not better or worse, just different. And these kids are "gifted" at manipulating us.

 

After decades of dealing with kids like this, right or wrong, for better or worse, I'm so NOT impressed with "gifted" anymore. I think these kids need "normal" even more than normal kids. I believe in compacting review IF they don't need it. I believe in letting them move faster through a curriculum. But I don't do "special" things anymore. I believe in keeping the core "normal" and then letting them unschool the rest of the day; or do chores, if they are not interested in pursuing any of their gifts.

 

My older son was born a "gifted" artist. He chose not to pursue his gift. Art is work. He doesn't want to work at art, despite his unusual natural talents.

 

I don't believe that people are required to rise above "normal" productivity, no matter what gifts they are born with. But they do need to be as busy and productive as "normal", and that is best taught with chores sometimes, NOT academics.

 

Good luck! :grouphug:

 

 

Oh my goodness...did you hit that nail on the head! I am so NOT impressed with gifted!!! I have gifted kids....feh! I will take my hard worker so called non-gifted struggler anyway. Gifted kids NEED to learn to work...and to do things that aren't easy....otherwise you have a gifted 35 year old living in your basement. Thanks for wording my thoughts!

faithe

[Farrar]

 

Several times I have caught child writing other things other than what was assigned to child. :glare:

 

 

I just want to say that this sentence stood out for me from the OP. I think we want to have kids who are motivated to learn and do work. But when we undermine what they want to do and learn about, then we undermine their *whole* desire to learn and do and make. We can't be annoyed that they're writing about Legos or Pokemon or whatever "junk" instead of the essay assignments they have without making it harder, in the end, for them to love writing and learn to write the essays they need to write. And I think you could say similar things about math or reading or any other subject. This is not to say that kids don't need to learn to write in certain styles or do practical math or whatever, but just that motivating a desire to learn doesn't usually start with the things we want it to start with. And I think that's extra true of gifted children.

 

I second getting outside the box, dropping curricula, finding a new rhythm and way of doing things. Right now the OP is stuck in seeing this child's issues instead of the child's strengths and gifts. Optimally we want to see our children as a whole - both their strengths and weaknesses, but to get a child to work, you have to be on their side, not against them.

[ktgrok]

 

Have you tried this with gifted kids? Mine is six. I'm not saying she wouldn't want a chocolate chip :). Perhaps, it would work if I told her I didn't want chocolate chips to get on her books. But if she had any idea I was doing it to condition her to work, she would be so angry she wouldn't work for the rest of the year :).

 

 

I haven't used it, but have used some similar strategies. If it matters, my son is gifted and I have a genius level IQ. I get that they (we) can be ornery, lol. But my thought was it would be a game, that it would be SOOOO easy the child would think they were taking advantage of the situation and their parent, thus motivating them. That was all. But again, the idea was for a child that wanted to learn but COULDN'T focus...one with attention deficit issues. To train them on how to focus for longer periods of time and build the habit of focusing. In my experience some children are very bright, but their maturity makes it hard to keep up with their brain power. I was focusing on the part of the post where she said the child was dealing with distraction. I also find that just moving up the difficulty isn't always a solution, as the SKILLS of putting pen to paper can be behind the intellectual capacity to learn.

[MomatHWTK]

My child is very rigid and requires routine and the building of habit to accomplish anything. (Then it is still a struggle.) I started with one task, fought through that and got the child in the habit of doing that task. Then I'd add another task and go through the same routine.

 

Did the pychologist evaluate for ADHD? ASD?

[ktgrok]

Oh my goodness...did you hit that nail on the head! I am so NOT impressed with gifted!!! I have gifted kids....feh! I will take my hard worker so called non-gifted struggler anyway. Gifted kids NEED to learn to work...and to do things that aren't easy....otherwise you have a gifted 35 year old living in your basement. Thanks for wording my thoughts!

faithe

 

 

AMEN! You said what I was trying to get at, and afraid to say. Just because a kid is gifted doesn't mean they are good at doing the actual work. And I believe they DO need to learn to do the actual work. They will need those skills. I speak as someone that IS gifted, and the mother of a gifted kid. More than other kids he needs to be taught the skill of buckeling down and doing the work.

[ktgrok]

Did it? Or did he discover that he could go on to his own, more interesting things in his room without being bothered once he finished his inappropriate paperwork?

 

Personally I read a lot of books...I learned the teachers weren't ever going to finish anything, so I'd read the textbooks backwards until I met up with the class, or the dictionary, or if it had been long enough I'd go get a new book out of the librarian.

 

Drama was the last thing I wanted. New material at an appropriate pace and complexity was the first.

 

 

Umm..it wasn't inappropriate paperwork. It was math at the correct level for him. Or reading in a book that HE HAD CHOSEN earlier, that was the appropriate reading level. Or ANYTHING that he didn't want to do right then. So yeah, he figured out that he could go on to do his own, more interesting things if he just would do his schoolwork first. That was the whole point. He would actually smile and say wow...I can actually get it all done by noon if I just keep working! But if he was engaging with me about it he would spend the entire day refusing/arguing/avoiding and never get to do anything fun. So unless you think learning any math or whatnot is inappropriate....in which case I will disagree...he was not being given inappropriate work, or busy work. Like I said, I WAS that gifted kid, and I do NOT assign busy work.

[MomatHWTK]

Gifted and lazy here. I took the easiest routes to the good grades, did what I had to do and never really took to that whole "hard work" thing.

[ktgrok]

Also, in defense of my "reward to get what you want" tactic, lol...I realized just now that that is exactly how I get myself to do long tasks that I dislike. When I had to write long papers I would initially take a break or reward myself with a snack or facebook browse or whatever after every paragraph. Once I got in the groove and on a roll I'd reward myself every page. Then I got to where I would break down asignments into quarters, and reward myself after every quarter finished.

 

So yeah..it works on gifted kids :)

[FriedClams]

I'm another reformed lazy gifted kid. I went to a top college. LOTS of insanely gifted people there. In the top 10% were some gifted kids - and a whole pile of smart kids with good study habits. So, I learned to study. It got me through a very tough college, grad school, flight school, etc.....

 

As a result, I don't buy into the gifted kids should not be bored with work... they can pick their assignments...give them more space...tailor everything to them...do it orally...camps. I am NOT saying they aren't valid camps for certain kids (and the OP has tried many of those techniques unsuccessfully) - but I think there are only a couple of points on the how-to-deal-with-a-gifted-kid star. I think if you are gifted (and from what I saw throughout college, flight school, etc.) that if you are gifted it should be easy for you. You should "get" it. Yes - it might be boring. Yes - it might be beneath you. But that doesn't mean you don't do, do it thoroughly, and do what's assigned. And frankly - it shouldn't take that long. In regular schools gifted kids get more - not less. In grades 4-6 I went to a real gifted program where we memorized poems, did math, logic, science, etc. for one day a week, AND did all the work that we missed. It was not a big deal. In schools they don't say "you're gifted in math - well - do half the problems, aloud, and then you're good." They get the normal ones, and then some harder ones (at least we did - I have no idea now - except one friend's kids who are in a G&T program where they do it this way).

 

I think what some people are scratching the surface on here is that while a kid may be gifted - it's the character trait of diligence that we all want to be cultivated. Gifted and lazy or smart-ish and hard working - most of us would employ the latter. I think that's the mom's frustration. It's not the academics - it's the attitude and fruit she's seeing. It's the "don't care" attitude.

 

I would suggest picking a tactic and working on it unwaveringly for a week. You know what you've tried, and what you need to do. You know your child. OP mentioned "sometimes" a lot - so now is the time to switch to "always". It will be hard - you already know that. But you can do it. No exceptions. Get a sitter if you need to for the little ones. It'll be like super focused potty training a third grader. They're smart. They're tough. But you're the mom and you can be kind, encouraging, and tougher. Go into it prepared with prayer, sweet, and kind. It's training not discipline. It's molding the heart of that sweet baby - who will someday amaze you with how they use that tenacity. It will get easier. Every day. Until there's a setback. But you can do it. Again and again. Because you're the mom and not matter what you love the heart of that child. Hang in there!!! We're all on your team!!

[ktgrok]

You know..thinking more about why sitting in his room to do his work works, and about how I manage to get unwelcome tasks done, I had a flash of insight. Maybe he, like me, needs work to be less "work" like...not sure how to say that. You know how most of the time it is advised that you do schoolwork in a separate, designated area? Or to study in a library or whatever? Well that NEVER worked for me. I do my best work if I'm in my bed. Or at least I actually get it done that way, lol. I would turn on a rerun of Law and Order (one I'd seen so I wasn't too distracted by it), get a snack, a drink, and cuddle up on my bed with my lap top. I made doing the work as comfy as possible. I used to say I tricked my brain, lol. I wonder if doing his work at his computer desk, where he plays minecraft and does his other leisure activities, surrounded by his own stuff, makes him more comfortable and thus able to focus more easily? Don't get me wrong, part of it IS that there is no drama because we DO push each other's buttons. But it may be a comfort thing. We both have sensory issues, and sititng in a hard chair at the kitchen table just doesn't work for us.

 

Have you tried letting her do the work somewhere else?

[ktgrok]

I'm another reformed lazy gifted kid. I went to a top college. LOTS of insanely gifted people there. In the top 10% were some gifted kids - and a whole pile of smart kids with good study habits. So, I learned to study. It got me through a very tough college, grad school, flight school, etc.....

 

As a result, I don't buy into the gifted kids should not be bored with work... they can pick their assignments...give them more space...tailor everything to them...do it orally...camps. I am NOT saying they aren't valid camps for certain kids (and the OP has tried many of those techniques unsuccessfully) - but I think there are only a couple of points on the how-to-deal-with-a-gifted-kid star. I think if you are gifted (and from what I saw throughout college, flight school, etc.) that if you are gifted it should be easy for you. You should "get" it. Yes - it might be boring. Yes - it might be beneath you. But that doesn't mean you don't do, do it thoroughly, and do what's assigned. And frankly - it shouldn't take that long. In regular schools gifted kids get more - not less. In grades 4-6 I went to a real gifted program where we memorized poems, did math, logic, science, etc. for one day a week, AND did all the work that we missed. It was not a big deal. In schools they don't say "you're gifted in math - well - do half the problems, aloud, and then you're good." They get the normal ones, and then some harder ones (at least we did - I have no idea now - except one friend's kids who are in a G&T program where they do it this way).

 

I think what some people are scratching the surface on here is that while a kid may be gifted - it's the character trait of diligence that we all want to be cultivated. Gifted and lazy or smart-ish and hard working - most of us would employ the latter. I think that's the mom's frustration. It's not the academics - it's the attitude and fruit she's seeing. It's the "don't care" attitude.

 

I would suggest picking a tactic and working on it unwaveringly for a week. You know what you've tried, and what you need to do. You know your child. OP mentioned "sometimes" a lot - so now is the time to switch to "always". It will be hard - you already know that. But you can do it. No exceptions. Get a sitter if you need to for the little ones. It'll be like super focused potty training a third grader. They're smart. They're tough. But you're the mom and you can be kind, encouraging, and tougher. Go into it prepared with prayer, sweet, and kind. It's training not discipline. It's molding the heart of that sweet baby - who will someday amaze you with how they use that tenacity. It will get easier. Every day. Until there's a setback. But you can do it. Again and again. Because you're the mom and not matter what you love the heart of that child. Hang in there!!! We're all on your team!!

 

 

I agree totally. (and still think my sudden insight in my post above is worth looking at..is there somewhere more comfy/personal/less distracting to work? Sensory issues can be a factor)

 

But yeah...at some point some kids need to learn that they have to just do it. As I told my son one day, "This is no longer about math. I don't give a crud if you get the math right at this point. This is about character. When the going gets tough, are you going to get tougher and do what it takes? Or are you going to quit and give up? Cause that is what this is all about right now." Now understand, i'd addressed everything else, and tried all sorts of things, including breaks, easier work, harder work, more creative work, etc. At this point it was about learning to just do the work. To put in the time. Us gifted folks get a bit too used to working smart, and at somepoint need to learn to work hard.

[sewingmama]

I used to have that child.

 

Here is what worked for us.

 

I set a timer.....if child was not done because of time wasting I put it away and it was done for homework. If they had been working diligently but didn't finish I would either say what they did was enough or give them a little more time to finish.

 

I wrote up a schedule. Child could see from the outset what needed to be done and how close they were getting to finishing. Young children have no real sense of time....if they can't see their progress it can seem endless to them. Why bother to finish the work in front of you when mum is just going to plunk more down when you are done Kwim.

 

Once the timer is set don't threaten or bribe. Leave it to the child to assume responsibility. If your child is time wasting get up and walk away.... Don't let them waste your time too.

 

When school time is up the child now does their homework. They can take as long as they like because now it is their free time they are wasting. Make sure everyone in the house is enjoying their free time. Now is a good time to announce...all those who have finished their work can come help me make cupcakes or play a game or some other such thing. If dawdling child whines you reply" you can join in too as soon as you finish your work" and then ignore. It doesn't take long before schoolwork is done and the child is joining in.

 

The most important thing is not to let yourself get drawn into the fight. Let the child waste their time not yours. Sit at the table with them only if they are working. If they aren't then walk away.

 

I only had to do this for a little while. We no longer use a timer as child knows they will be doing homework if they don't finish in time.

[clemota]

I'd like to make a point about the "laziness" tag that's being thrown out: gifted children very often have trouble with executive functions. That's the part of the brain that gets us to start tasks, finish tasks, not be distracted, and organize things (thoughts, writings, papers, workspace, bedroom, etc). When executive function skills are below the norm (because of the asynchronous development gifted children often have) they are suddenly seen as being ADD/ADHA/lazy/unmotivated/uncooperative.

 

There are some decent books out there that your local library might have to help you assess if this is possibly the issue for your child:

Smart but Scattered

Executive Skills in Children and Adolescents

Bright Not Broken

 

I also second a PP's recommendation for the SENG website - many, MANY excellent articles there for free - just click on the resources button.

 

You may want to see if you can find a psychologist in your area who works with gifted children, or even a parent group that meets locally. It is incredibly frustrating to have a child like this, I know. But it helps to know that its common among gifted kids. And at helps to work with other parents who have been there/done that. The correct psychologist won't just say things are going ok - they "get" your kid. They understand them. And they know how to help. A gifted child with executive function issues is considered to be "2E" or "twice-exceptional" - Once for the giftedness, once for the lack of executive function. Just like a kid who is gifted and dyslexic, or gifted with Aspergers. That's a huge plateful to deal with. There can be a lot of pride and a lot of heartbreak.

 

And yes, boredom could also be a big part of it. The best suggestion I ever got from our son's psychologist was to let him do the 5 hardest problems on a math page. If he got them correct, he was done. Worked with both motivation and boredom. I do not think you should repeat 3rd grade - that would be a nightmare of epic proportions for a gifted child.

 

Hope you're able to figure things out with your DC soon.

[Catherine]

ITA with Faithe. And ktgrok. Her message about behaviorally managing this situation is actually good IMO. Yes, real children need to be handled differently from dogs, but children also need to be cooperative. It took me many years with my gifted oppositional ds to understand that what he needed was to stop making himself the focus of all interactions and just get on with it. He's not a bad person. But I was totally convinced that he needed something special from me, and from the world, to function half as well as the rest of us. What he needed, I finally understood, was to understand that his needs were real, but they were no more important than the needs of anyone else in the family. I spent months putting together a really kick-@ss course in literature and writing for his senior year, at his request, and he refused to do the work. He didn't actually *refuse*-he just didn't do it. He always apologized, but it was not done. After giving him some guidance, and 2 second chances, I signed him up for another English class, which he "hated." It had to get done and I wasn't about to let him claim credit for doing nothing. But in the past, I would have tried much harder to accommodate his lack of cooperation.

 

During his later high school years I read an extremely helpful book that really changed the way I looked at him and his brothers. Although it is purportedly for parents of kids with ADD, the author's ideas apply well to any child who is out of control, uncooperative, and not functioning well. It's called Parenting the AD\HD Child: A New Approach by Eduardo Bustamante. The book outlines very nicely how to handle a kid who is oppositional, whether intentionally or not. For my ds, I know he didn't truly try to be difficult-he is not a sociopath. He simply didn't perceive the need to please anyone, for any reason.

 

I also agree that gifted children can look and behave like your child. My kid definitely falls into that category. But I had to learn the hard way that gifted does not mean that he is absolved of the responsibility of being decent and being a good family member and good citizen. If your child is not doing work because it's boring, at age 8, he or she is definitely old enough to express something of his or her needs and preferences, not simply refuse to participate without explanation. Don't let him get away with that. Force the issue.

[ELaurie]

You are describing my ds 10. I'm leaving in the morning for the GHC in Cinncinnati so I don't have time to respond at length. However, the websites in my signature line have been very helpful. They have a free email list with lots of helpful suggestions - you can follow some great discussions on thier Facebook page, and the CDs are wonderful. If $ is an issue, they will work with you on the pricing. :grouphug:

[Mommyfaithe]

Gifted and lazy here. I took the easiest routes to the good grades, did what I had to do and never really took to that whole "hard work" thing.

 

 

And how did at work out for you? Not being snarky...I am truly curious....bEcause I see my gifted son not doing son well.....maybe there is hope.

[TraceyS/FL]

 

 

And how did at work out for you? Not being snarky...I am truly curious....bEcause I see my gifted son not doing son well.....maybe there is hope.

I didn't do the least to get good grades, I just did the least to pass with "acceptable" grades.

 

College still was a struggle for me, I never found a niche beyond my photo classes. I firmly believe that the executive function stuff came into play for me, and I see it in my DD - and my middle special needs kid has no executive function ability.... I left after 3.5 years (due to major changes I still had 2 more years to go).

 

That said, I'm 44 and going to college again - and hey, I get straight A's but still write papers the day before they are due :p It is different now, I own the schooling.... It was my choice, I still despise homework, but I'm paying $$$ for the classes, I'm going to do well.

 

 

[MomatHWTK]

And how did at work out for you? Not being snarky...I am truly curious....bEcause I see my gifted son not doing son well.....maybe there is hope.

 

 

 

My m.o. was always, when hitting a wall turn- I had never had to consider climbing over during my childhood education because the walls were always so low. Tough class- drop it, stressful job, find another one.

 

 

I do not work well for others. My most successful jobs were the ones where the boss put me in charge, only cared about output and I could get there anyway I wanted.

 

 

My theory is that gifted folks can hold down jobs, but the ones who make headlines and create their own companies, etc. are the ones who are gifted and don't stop when they hit a wall. KWIM?

 

 

Now pushing over every wall may not always be possible. I'm certainly not saying that every stoppage should be seen as laziness. Being "smart" doesn't mean a person doesn't have emotional or psychological limitations. Maybe tough science classes would have driven me out of my mind and destroyed my love of learning. I'll neve know because I avoided them. ;) But I definitely could have used some guidance in not giving up.

 

Oh, I have learned that I am definitely 2e as an adult. I take medication. So again, who knows if I could have gotten over those walls without treatment as a child.

[Corraleno]

And how did at work out for you? Not being snarky...I am truly curious....bEcause I see my gifted son not doing son well.....maybe there is hope.

 

 

Well, I can tell you how it worked out for me... and, like Tracey, I didn't even do the minimum for good grades, I did the minimum to pass. I couldn't have cared less about grades or college — I was so bored in school that I felt like a trapped animal, and I would have gnawed my arm off if I thought it would have gotten me out of there. As it was, I did a lot of research (pre-internet) to find out what the minimum graduation requirements were in my state and I forced my HS to let me graduate in 3 yrs. When I told my guidance counselor it was because I wanted an early start on college, I lied — I had no intention of going to college. I figured college was just more of what I was getting in HS, and I had no intention of spending one more minute in school than I had to.

 

There was no punishment anyone could have meted out that would have made any difference. When people told me that life was full of boring meaningless work and the sooner I got used to it the better, it didn't make me want to buckle down — it made me want to kill myself. I thought, wow, if this is all there is to life, and it never gets any better, then no thanks.

 

The only reason I ended up in college was because I took the PSAT & SAT (cold, no prep) and scored in the top 1%, which earned me a National Merit Scholarship. I accepted a full ride to a great LAC, primarily to get the h*ll out of NJ and away from my family. I figured if I really couldn't stand it then at least I'd be homeless in a beautiful sunny place instead of a gloomy gray one.

 

And then I discovered what real learning looked like. I discovered philosophy, and Socratic questioning, and teachers who challenge and push you and actually care what you think. Those professors finally lit the fire and I had no trouble whatsoever buckling down and doing the work. I worked my @ss off, because I cared passionately about what I was reading and thinking and writing. I worked hard enough that I was accepted to every PhD program I applied to, and ended up with a Fellowship to a Top 10 program. And from there I had a successful career, I traveled all over the world, I met my DH, moved to Europe, and now I'm back in the States.

 

Do I wish I'd worked harder in HS? Um, no — I wish I'd never had to step foot in a B&M school. If I'd been allowed to pursue the sort of education my son is pursuing, it would have saved me a decade of total misery, depression, and hopelessness.

 

"Gifted" is not necessarily just "normal but smarter," and "normal but harder" schoolwork is not the answer for all gifted kids.

 

Jackie

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Jackie, I'm with you on all of that. I didn't learn how to learn until I learned to teach. Life's never been the same since I started homeschooling my own gifted children, who will go to school or be forced to think dully over my dead body. I used to feel so guilty about zoning out during high school. Now I shudder to think what might have happened to my mind if I had forced myself to pay attention.

[Ellie]

Jackie, I'm with you on all of that. I didn't learn how to learn until I learned to teach. Life's never been the same since I started homeschooling my own gifted children, who will go to school or be forced to think dully over my dead body. I used to feel so guilty about zoning out during high school. Now I shudder to think what might have happened to my mind if I had forced myself to pay attention.

 

I was just going to *like* your post, but decided to do this instead:

 

:hurray: :cheers2: :001_wub:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

I was just going to *like* your post, but decided to do this instead:

 

:hurray: :cheers2: :001_wub:

 

Wow, thanks, Ellie! LOL

[wapiti]

Count me as another who zoned out - starting in middle school or earlier. It was way too easy and uninspiring. Talk about sliding by... My name is ___, and I am a Slacker. As an adult, I came around and learned to think in law school and to write on-the-job. I wish I hadn't missed out on all that education in high school and college, but at the time I didn't know any other way. I did not understand the value of brainpower back then.

 

One of my favorite quotes from the GDC:

 

When gifted children are not given opportunities to work at their own level and pace, they settle for less than their best. They learn to slide by without stretching themselves. Patterns of underachievement are subtle and cumulative; they become harder to overcome with each year. Students who attain A’s on their papers with no effort are not prepared to take more challenging classes in high school and college. When work is too easy, self-confidence to attempt difficult tasks is steadily eroded. A student who has the potential to win a scholarship to an Ivy League university settles for a B average at a state college.

 

One of my main goals for my kids is to stretch them, in at least one subject. We are afterschooling at the moment, and math is the chosen subject, as it is a strength for all of them. (FWIW, I mean intellectual stretching, not character stretching. I am literally trying to grow their brains, and for me, academic challenge would not include tasks that feel hard simply because they are tedious.)

[Giraffe]

For those wondering "the child" appears to be a girl, based on pronoun slips in the original post. And this gifted girl was the same as her gifted girl, though I was a passive resister. I didn't fight, I just didn't do. And didn't care. And chocolate chips, $100, or a new car wasn't going to change me. I was bored with the method, with school, with everything. I did the bare minimum to get a B. that was it. I got straight As once, and my reward? "We'll, it's about time! Now let's see you keep that up!" I never repeated THAT mistake!

 

You have to change what you're doing. Radically. Worksheets, rows of problems she already gets, boring assignments or curricula? Get rid of them. She chose something to do with volcanos, no? Try that first. NOT the curricula (boring!), the subject. Use the curricula as reference material, but have her research elsewhere and come up with a presentation on volcanos. Tell her you'd like her to find out everything she can about volcanos in history, in science, in modern times. Pompeii, Mt. St. Helens, Hawaii, etc. say you want all sides, all perspectives. Then turn her loose.

 

And - she's 9. It's ok if she doesn't "keep up" with all her schooling right now. Once you get her going, she will more than catch up.

[Arcadia]

And how did at work out for you? Not being snarky...I am truly curious....because I see my gifted son not doing son well.....maybe there is hope.

 

I coast through school all the way to postgrad. I enjoyed school because I get to sleep in class and represent my school in science contests. I also had plenty of extra curricular activities like school band, student council and others to look forward to. I aced most of my subjects without effort and make enough effort to pass the required/compulsory ones. I only have to stretch myself when I landed the "correct" job. I am motor skill delayed though and I have to work hard and still be behind in motor skills.

[rainbird2]

I have a gifted child, too. Here is what is working for us:

 

My husband and I both are in agreement that what matters most is our child's character. You can be gifted, but not have any work ethic. No one is going to want to hire you, no matter your abilities. It is the parents' responsibility to train their child to be discipline and to have a good work ethic. So, that is our goal.

 

We make sure our gifted child is well fed. Lots of good protein, quality fats and no sugar...all whole foods. Feed that brain to work well and to be in balance.

 

Let the child get good sleep.

 

Have a consistent routine. Downtime in the afternoon to pursue interests, read, etc.

 

Now, the good stuff:

 

We make this child WORK, and we mean it. We live on some land, so we have a garden, chickens, other animals. He is in charge of taking care of the chickens. He wakes in the morning and lets them out, checks their feed, etc. In the afternoon, he collects eggs, cleans them, puts chickens back. He sells his eggs for $$.

 

We have him in two extra-curriculars, and he has to work his tail off at both. He is in horseback riding, English (harder than Western!), and his teacher is a Princeton graduate. She has quite a work ethic. He has to WORK at his lessons, clean the horse, clean the girths, then pay me a portion of each lesson. It helps that he loves horses, but riding is not easy, whatsoever.

 

He's playing piano. Old school, traditional piano (Hanon, scales with the metronome). I teach him, and I'm a classically trained pianist. He has to WORK to get his practice done, and it better be done well, or we don't stop. Then he has theory assignments to complete afterward.

 

I can tell you that my son is truly proud of himself. I call him "The Good Cowboy" when he does his work well. He loves that. He still is innately lazy, but by no means is he NOT being challenged. The bar is high and he has to work for that goal. Although he loves riding and loves the piano, these are certainly not his gifts, and he has to work HARD for that good fuzzy feeling on the inside.

 

If there is any complaining, there is more work. Simple as that. He knows that his life can be beautiful, or it can be a horror...it's his choice, I just implement. Our family is a family of hard workers, no exceptions. We tolerate no laziness or self-centeredness. We are hard working, kind, honest, respectful, patient and obedient people. I don't care how fast you can read or how quickly you can memorize something. We work and we are not lazy or self-centered people.

 

We sing this in our house a lot: "Do everything without complaining. Do everything without arguing. So that you may become, blameless and pure, children of God." It's our theme song! :)

 

Think about what character traits you want to instill in your child. Read Farmer Boy by Laura Ingalls Wilder (to your child) and think about if his parents were concerned about giftedness. And then think of how far your child can take his gifts if he had a good work ethic...

 

Read Raising Godly Tomatoes. I highly recommend some tomato staking. It works! Let your child know you love him and you want what is best for him. Make your child work, and hard.

 

Blessings to you!

[NASDAQ]

 

Have you tried this with gifted kids? Mine is six. I'm not saying she wouldn't want a chocolate chip :). Perhaps, it would work if I told her I didn't want chocolate chips to get on her books. But if she had any idea I was doing it to condition her to work, she would be so angry she wouldn't work for the rest of the year :).

 

My brother and I both scored as very gifted, and my mother used bribery all the time. Totally overtly, too. I don't think the personality trait you are describing in your daughter is necessarily related to giftedness.

[NASDAQ]

I am kind of surprised to see "laziness" ascribed to "gifted." It seems to me that the vast majority of us tend towards lazy. I know I do. Work is hard. Thinking is hard. Work is hard. We learn to do these things, just as we learn to add and subtract and to read. And if it takes chocolate chip cookies to get there, so be it.

 

There is no guarantee that work that is necessary will also be interesting, or that work that is challenging will also be interesting, or that all of the prerequisite work to challenging and interesting work will itself be interesting.

 

And Singapore Math that the child hasn't mastered is hardly mindless busywork. This isn't someone asking whether she should make her son or daughter do 500 more identical problems if he's done the first hundred perfectly. And while it might be possible in an ideal world to turn everything into an idealised unit study, it doesn't sound realistic for the OP's situation. I'm also not sure it's desirable. Doing things that aren't intrinsically fascinating is itself a useful skill.

 

The beginning of academic work with my older two has been the hardest, because they are having to learn to sit still, pay attention, think about difficult things, and concentrate for a good thirty minutes.

[Hunter]

As a result, I don't buy into the gifted kids should not be bored with work... they can pick their assignments...give them more space...tailor everything to them...do it orally...camps. I am NOT saying they aren't valid camps for certain kids (and the OP has tried many of those techniques unsuccessfully) - but I think there are only a couple of points on the how-to-deal-with-a-gifted-kid star. I think if you are gifted (and from what I saw throughout college, flight school, etc.) that if you are gifted it should be easy for you. You should "get" it. Yes - it might be boring. Yes - it might be beneath you. But that doesn't mean you don't do, do it thoroughly, and do what's assigned. And frankly - it shouldn't take that long.

 

 

:iagree:

[Hunter]

OP, I respect your choice to keep the gender of the child private. Only share what you want to share on this public forum, and even in private. You are still the one in control of what you reveal, no matter how much others want this information from you. You don't even need to have a good answer to why you don't want to reveal it. Just do it the way you WANT to. Period! Just because people are offering their help, doesn't mean you need to accept everything offered or do things their way. This is a buffet table. Be selective what you choose and choose what YOU want.

 

Starting a thread like this makes us very vulnerable. :grouphug: There is so much conflicting advice here; your head must be spinning and you must feel raw. Nothing has to be solved TODAY. I have a situation going on here that MUST be dealt with, but last night, when I lost my ability to talk, and couldn't think straight, I pulled back and chose not to come to any decisions whatsoever last night. Maybe not even today. I need to let things settle a bit. I need to get ME steady, before I jump in and do what needs to be done with this other person.

 

Most of the time, we can never fix another person, sometimes not even our own kids. We are just ONE person in their lives. A critical person, yes, but still just ONE person.

 

In the middle of all of this, make sure to take good care of YOU. Seriously! I'm not saying not to take action. I believe in taking action, but...don't engage in self-neglect in the process. Give yourself some TLC this week. YOU deserve it!

 

Oh my goodness...did you hit that nail on the head! I am so NOT impressed with gifted!!! I have gifted kids....feh! I will take my hard worker so called non-gifted struggler anyway. Gifted kids NEED to learn to work...and to do things that aren't easy....otherwise you have a gifted 35 year old living in your basement. Thanks for wording my thoughts!

faithe

 

 

 

Yup! And sometimes a smelly one, to boot. :lol:

[Gentlemommy]

OP, I just wanted to give you a virtual hug and commiserate. My just turned 8 year old sounds identical to your dc. We also have a 2 and 5 year old so I know how that goes. I've been reading, fascinated, at the replies. They've been helping tremendously. I don't know for sure that dd is gifted, but she fits a lot of the criteria. I had a feeling she was when she was younger, but due to her inability to focus, and her hatred of anything school, I figured she couldn't possibly be gifted. 'Gifted' meant doing well in school, right? Now I'm seeing one has nothing to do with the other. And it's making more and more sense. I just started my own thread about how to help ADD kiddos. We are having the same exact issues you are having. Just wanted to let you know you are not alone. You are an amazing mommy for trying so many different things, for desiring to preserve your relationshhip with your dc, and for recognizing a character issue and wanting to work on it. Fwiw, I think much of the problem isn't a character issue. I see the same behavior in my dd, and I know she isn't trying to be ornery, her brain really does think differently.

[unsinkable]

For those wondering "the child" appears to be a girl, based on pronoun slips in the original post. And this gifted girl was the same as her gifted girl, though I was a passive resister. I didn't fight, I just didn't do. And didn't care. And chocolate chips, $100, or a new car wasn't going to change me. I was bored with the method, with school, with everything. I did the bare minimum to get a B. that was it. I got straight As once, and my reward? "We'll, it's about time! Now let's see you keep that up!" I never repeated THAT mistake!

 

You have to change what you're doing. Radically. Worksheets, rows of problems she already gets, boring assignments or curricula? Get rid of them. She chose something to do with volcanos, no? Try that first. NOT the curricula (boring!), the subject. Use the curricula as reference material, but have her research elsewhere and come up with a presentation on volcanos. Tell her you'd like her to find out everything she can about volcanos in history, in science, in modern times. Pompeii, Mt. St. Helens, Hawaii, etc. say you want all sides, all perspectives. Then turn her loose.

 

And - she's 9. It's ok if she doesn't "keep up" with all her schooling right now. Once you get her going, she will more than catch up.

 

Yeah, I did catch the "she"s.

 

Plain Jane should probably fix those for privacy's sake, since it is obviously not something she felt comfortable sharing.

[wapiti]

And Singapore Math that the child hasn't mastered is hardly mindless busywork. This isn't someone asking whether she should make her son or daughter do 500 more identical problems if he's done the first hundred perfectly.

 

FWIW, while SM is great, I'd guess there may be a problem with level in this case - as one would expect with using grade-level material at a normal-student pace with a gifted student - and I think the solution is to teach the material at a faster pace to arrive at a more challenging place - the reason homeschooling and a custom-fit program is perfect to avoid the pitfalls, of, say, public school subject acceleration.

 

I have a ds with major perfectionism/underachieving issues, and his teacher keeps putting him in the grade level group for math. (Nevermind the most recent 99th percentile achievement level.) The problem is that he keeps trying to get away with doing what should be "easy" work using only the two brain cells in the far back, and the rest of his brain to think about something else. That makes the math feel really hard and he resists, and he also gets stuff wrong/can't show what he knows, etc. when he does that - vicious cycle. Trying to develop the patience to use his whole brain has been rather challenging for me. I am determined to not let the tuning out that happened to me in school happen to him, and will be having yet another phone conversation with the teacher later this morning (it will go something like: "yeah, I know he doesn't seem to remember it, but he did all of MM5A last fall. His 6A book is in his backpack." grrr, I can't find the dang 5A book to prove it. Even 6A, while hard, is something he still tries to dash off - though he really can't. If he tries to dash it off, big fat fail. I have to sit down with him through the lesson part to make him read it.) What's worse yet, when he's only using those two brain cells in the back and not fully paying attention, he tends to work/learn much more superficially/procedurally and has worse retention than he has with the harder math that requires his whole brain to think through.

 

I haven't had my coffee yet so I don't know whether anyone can interpret what I'm trying to say, but I've got to get up and get ready to explain this to the teacher (who unfortunately has an appalling lack of knowledge of gifted situations). I'm trying to avoid hs-ing right now but that's where this situation seems to be headed.

[TerriMI]

http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/?fb_action_ids=10201052241213744&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582

 

I just read this article a couple of days ago about gifted children who do poorly or who don't want to try. Not sayin' this is you necessarily! Just something to consider.

[Whereneverever]

I was this child and now I have one. It's frustrating. :grouphug:

[SarahW]

FWIW, while SM is great, I'd guess there may be a problem with level in this case - as one would expect with using grade-level material at a normal-student pace with a gifted student - and I think the solution is to teach the material at a faster pace to arrive at a more challenging place - the reason homeschooling and a custom-fit program is perfect to avoid the pitfalls, of, say, public school subject acceleration.

 

I have a ds with major perfectionism/underachieving issues, and his teacher keeps putting him in the grade level group for math. (Nevermind the most recent 99th percentile achievement level.) The problem is that he keeps trying to get away with doing what should be "easy" work using only the two brain cells in the far back, and the rest of his brain to think about something else. That makes the math feel really hard and he resists, and he also gets stuff wrong/can't show what he knows, etc. when he does that - vicious cycle. Trying to develop the patience to use his whole brain has been rather challenging for me. I am determined to not let the tuning out that happened to me in school happen to him, and will be having yet another phone conversation with the teacher later this morning (it will go something like: "yeah, I know he doesn't seem to remember it, but he did all of MM5A last fall. His 6A book is in his backpack." grrr, I can't find the dang 5A book to prove it. Even 6A, while hard, is something he still tries to dash off - though he really can't. If he tries to dash it off, big fat fail. I have to sit down with him through the lesson part to make him read it.) What's worse yet, when he's only using those two brain cells in the back and not fully paying attention, he tends to work/learn much more superficially/procedurally and has worse retention than he has with the harder math that requires his whole brain to think through.

 

I haven't had my coffee yet so I don't know whether anyone can interpret what I'm trying to say, but I've got to get up and get ready to explain this to the teacher (who unfortunately has an appalling lack of knowledge of gifted situations). I'm trying to avoid hs-ing right now but that's where this situation seems to be headed.

 

http://nymag.com/new...288381481237582

 

I just read this article a couple of days ago about gifted children who do poorly or who don't want to try. Not sayin' this is you necessarily! Just something to consider.

 

 

Terri, good article, thanks.

 

wapiti, my kid and your son might be twins.

 

My kid stalled about doing math under his ability level because he just wanted to "check-out" and still get everything perfect. My solution was to tell him that we were going to be doing "more interesting" things in math, and then grabbed a bunch of math sheets off the web that were completely different from what he had been doing (so some Singapore samples, some Khan videos, some other stuff) and began accelerating him very quickly that way. And I kept up the "more interesting" line constantly. But he's six, so he's still at the age where I can make what I say become his reality (sometimes).

 

My husband tried to pull the "you can be smarter, we're going to make you even smarter!" line once, but I quickly put the kabosh on that. Not "smarter," "more interesting." That way what he does isn't about him on the ontological level, it is simply meeting his extrinsic needs. The kid has responded very well so far to this approach.

[MrsBanjoClown]

I wish I could help, but I am having the exact same issues with my 8yo. When I work with my 6yo, 8yo starts playing Star Wars with his pencil and eraser, or dropping them on the floor 5 times, or making battle sounds with his mouth, or singing the Star Wars theme - anything but doing his work.

[Kuovonne]

When reading the original post, I too thought that the OP's child sounds a lot like my DD. Then I read other people saying that their children are just like the OP's child and give their recommendations. However, my DD is not like those other children, and many of the suggestions they give would not work for my DD. So maybe the OP's child is like mine, like other posters' kids, or someone totally different.

 

 

[clemota]

When reading the original post,.... maybe the OP's child is like mine, like other posters' kids, or someone totally different.

 

:001_smile: And the good news about these forums is that the OP (and everyone else!) can get a lot of different feedback and ideas and maybe try something new. Hopefully she'll take only the info that fits, and throw the rest out. I don't think anyone means any harm, and I'm sure all of us know what it's like when you're trying to figure something out.

 

Posting here is the equivalent to brainstorming for a written paper. Lots of great ideas, but only a select few will end up being used.

 

It's better to have options than no ideas at all. Here's hoping that the OP finds something in all these posts that will help! :grouphug:

[Tracy]

 

 

How do I fix this? How do I find materials that child finds challenging and will want to do? SM is not easy and simple for this child. Or maybe it is but they appear to struggle a bit when actually working.

 

 

I would also recommend that you post on the Accelerated Learner board. Teaching gifted kids is not the same as teaching other children, even if they are not meeting your average expectations. You likely are dealing with a myriad of issues, including boredom from insufficient challenge, and perfectionism--not wanting to do the work because he can't do it to his own level of expectation. Punishment is not going to overcome these issues, but just make it worse.

 

It can be hard to find the right amount of challenge. My dd8 will balk at a math lesson that she thinks is too easy, and 10 minutes later be in tears because it is too hard. I have to keep her 1 year ahead while going easy on my output expectations. She would rather work at the edge of her competency than practice what she already knows but hasn't mastered. She has little tolerance for drill work, especially in written form.

 

It is very common for gifted kids to struggle with writing. They know that they do not have the skills (handwriting, spelling, mechanics) to get on paper what is in their heads, and it is very frustrating for them. My dd used to come up with the most beautiful sentences to write, but it would bring her to tears, because they were way too complicated for her get down on paper. WWE has been very good for her. It provides the kind of sentences to write that she would come up with but breaks down those skills so that she is only doing one at a time.

 

In addition to the Accelerated Learner board, I really like the TAGMAX forum. Take some time to learn about giftedness and the accompanying issues. And do not take advice from anyone that is not familiar with gifted issues.

[Corraleno]

if you are gifted it should be easy for you. You should "get" it. Yes - it might be boring. Yes - it might be beneath you. But that doesn't mean you don't do, do it thoroughly, and do what's assigned. And frankly - it shouldn't take that long.

 

The idea that "gifted" just means "extra smart" and so school work should be super easy for them — and that refusing to work is therefore nothing but laziness — is just. not. true.

 

"Gifted" is not necessarily the 3rd grader doing 4th grade math and getting 90% every day. The really gifted kid may be the one in the back of the room, bored out of his mind, doodling fractals in his notebook. He may be a 3rd grader who can't memorize his times tables and zones out on addition problems, but can visualize a line going to infinity in both directions, and he wants to know if you divide it in "half" does each one equal half of infinity or does "halving" infinity actually double it? And if you have a sphere, with an infinite number of lines that all radiate out to infinity, is that "more infinite" than just one line? Can you use infinity in equations, or is it just an idea? Because zero is an idea but you can still use it in equations, right? And then he starts asking about multiverses and string theory. Telling that kid (yep, that's my son) to stop being lazy and just sit there and do the PS math worksheets is not the best approach.

 

Here are some examples of things that have and haven't worked with my son:

 

Grammar

3rd-5th grades: Grammar worksheets that introduce one concept at a time, with lots of repetition. He wanted to poke his eyes out. Lots of foot dragging, daydreaming, and zero retention.

6th grade: Intensive online class that covered all of English grammar in 4 weeks, with lots of graphics and funny examples. Not only did he get straight As, it sparked an intensive, ongoing passion for linguistics.

Now: He reads linguistics textbooks for fun and follows me around the house telling me about obscure cases and tenses in endangered Altaic languages.

 

Foreign Language

5th grade: Middle school Spanish program that introduces one concept at a time, with lots of repetition and weekly worksheets. He did the work; not much interest; zero retention.

7th grade: Athenaze Greek with Lukeion. He begged to learn Greek, despite the fact that I told him it was probably one of the most difficult languages that a dyslexic/ADD middle schooler could possibly choose. He was determined, and he worked harder than I've ever seen him work on any schoolwork. There were many tears (and wails of why am I so stupid???), but he pushed through and did the work because he is passionate about all things Greek and really wants to read original sources. He got an A+ in both semesters, and a silver medal on the NGE.

8th grade: Wheelock's Latin plus Athenaze 2 (straight As so far in both Lukeion courses), plus he's teaching himself Turkish using a college textbook. He plans to learn Mongolian next.

 

Literature

3rd grade: In PS, he had to read assigned books, put a post-it note on every page with a one-sentence summary, and provide a one page narration for every chapter. He cried about reading and writing every. single. day. By the time I pulled him out of PS, he had gone from a reluctant reader to a complete nonreader.

4th grade: I tried bribing him to read even crappy books, like Magic Treehouse. He would do the minimum necessary but would never read otherwise. I decided to back off and leave it alone for a while.

5th grade: I used his interest in mythology to hook him on Percy Jackson, which finally sparked a love of reading. No narrations, no analysis, just reading for pleasure.

6th & 7th grade: Continued to read (for pleasure, not assigned) books of increasingly complexity, including LOTR and assorted Greek literature. Began to notice differences in the quality of writing, weaknesses in plotting or characterization, etc.— lots of great informal discussions!

8th grade: Currently rereading the Iliad for the 3rd or 4th time; now that he knows more Greek, he likes to compare different translations to the Greek original. Audited Lukeion's Mythology course in the fall; has listened to all of Vandiver's lectures plus the 24-lecture Greek Literature course; currently taking an online Greek literature course through HarvardX. We have had some amazing, really deep discussions about literature this year.

 

 

Should I have called him lazy and forced him to do those grammar & Spanish worksheets? Should I have continued to bribe him with "rewards" for reading books and made him analyze, summarize, and narrate every one? If I had, I would now have a kid heading into HS with zero internal motivation, who hated school and resisted doing anything more than the bare minimum. I don't think it would have taught him a lesson about hard work, I think it would have taught him that school sucks so badly that parents need to bribe you to do it.

 

Instead, I have a (dyslexic, ADD, VSL) kid heading into HS who is internally motivated, who loves learning and fully intends to get a PhD, who pushes himself far harder than I ever would have. He spends 45+ hrs/wk on schoolwork, which is far more than I would "require" — he spends ~25 hrs/wk on foreign language alone, by his own choice. He watches TC lectures and reads textbooks for fun. He also fences 20 hrs/wk and has the best work ethic of anyone at his club — he's the first one there every day and often the last to leave; he's already surpassed kids who've been fencing far longer than he has. He is the antithesis of "lazy" — yet he could easily have been labeled that way by someone who doesn't understand gifted kids.

 

Oh, and we have a terrific relationship — he knows that I love him unconditionally (not just if he does what I want), and he totally trusts me and the fact that I have his best interests at heart. And that, IMHO, is even more valuable than the academic success.

 

Jackie

[MomatHWTK]

Apologies, I probably do not qualify as "gifted" but as just really smart. :) My reference to laziness was meant only as a self-description. I was a perfectionist who avoided anything difficult because there were plenty of non-difficult things at which to excel. To be clear, that doesn't mean that I did not work hard when I chose to do so. I studied a great deal and put in lots of effort on topics that interested me. Nonetheless, I dropped classes that I felt might negatively impact my GPA and intentionally chose others knowing they would be easy. I coasted and abused the system throughout high school and college.

 

These behaviors are easier when one can actually get good enough grades to game the system and thus can be a temptation for the gifted or just smart child. I also believe that no matter how hard one works at what one is interested in doing, there is still room to learn to do the non-interesting things as well. The ability to control one's own impulse to flee monotony can serve one well when all that must be done is monotonous. Ideally we could all only do that which thrills us intelectually, however the reality is that someone has to do the dishes and the laundry and pay the bills.

 

I'm sorry if my self-assessment was taken as an indictment of someone else's child. I simply know myself and know that I wish I had been taught to do those things which aren't pleasant or interesting with a happy heart.

[Corraleno]

Apologies, I probably do not qualify as "gifted" but as just really smart. :) My reference to laziness was meant only as a self-description.

 

I'm sorry if my self-assessment was taken as an indictment of someone else's child. I simply know myself and know that I wish I had been taught to do those things which aren't pleasant or interesting with a happy heart.

 

Oh I wasn't directing my comments at you — it was more towards the posts (and the general attitude that seems to be so prevalent in schools and society in general) that "gifted" just means "extra smart" and therefore school work should be so easy for these kids, and if a child is resisting then it's a "character flaw" that must be corrected (generally by punishing them with even more boring tedious work).

 

As I mentioned in my earlier post (about myself, not my son), I had zero work ethic in school because the work was totally meaningless to me, and the consequences of not doing it were also meaningless. As a college student, I took classes I didn't like and I did the work because by then I knew I wanted to go to a top grad school — IOW, the consequences of not doing the work were meaningful to me. I've done my share of boring tedious jobs, too — sometimes as 2nd jobs because I needed the money, and sometimes as crummy assignments in jobs that I otherwise enjoyed. I did the work because, in the first case, I like having food and a place to live, and in the 2nd instance, I wanted to keep the job overall. No employer has ever complained about my work ethic — in fact, the major complaint has always been that I took on too much work myself and didn't delegate enough.

 

IMHO, it's much better (and more effective) to learn to work hard and push through struggle when the work is something you really care about. Gifted kids who are allowed to pursue their interests and find their passions will often work much much harder, and be willing to push through the difficulty and struggle, if it's something they really care about. Then those skills, once learned, can be applied to less interesting tasks. There's a huge difference between a kid who has to do one or two subjects he dislikes and struggles with, versus one who is forced to sit at a desk and slog through most of his schoolwork using materials, methods, and content that he finds terribly boring and tedious, just to "teach him a lesson" about hard work.

 

Jackie

[songsparrow]

Can gifted kids be lazy, try to get out of doing hard work, etc.? Yes

Can gifted kids have problems with attention span, and need to work to build focus? Yes

 

But, in my experience, these are the last things that I would assume to be the problem if faced with a gifted child who is not showing focus, motivation or initiative, and only after I had exhausted all other options. I know that in my experience, if I give my children the wrong type of work, I end up with children who look a lot like the op described; if I give them the right type of work, I have kids who are engaged, focused and hard working.

 

First I would evaluate to see if the work is at the correct level for the child. (This can be a challenge, and can take some trial & error to get it right.) The work could be below the child's abilities. A child who does not want to do work that is below their abilities is not a child who is resisting working hard, but quite the opposite. Learning to do busywork / boring work is not the same as learning to develop discipline and persistence in the face of a challenge. And using treats or stickers or other rewards to motivate the child to do busywork will be useful only for a short period of time, if at all.

 

I would choose an area that's generally of interest to the child, and then explore it at a level about 2-3 years above the child's regular level (for input - keep output at grade level). You mentioned an interest in learning about volcanos. Get materials that are written for middle schoolers, or even adult/high school level books that are written with a good flow, and see if that engages him/her more; (s)he may want more depth and details than the current material is providing.

 

You mentioned that math is taking forever. If your child orally walks you through a problem, how long does it take? Is (s)he getting the concept? If yes, I would move on. Also, you don't have to do every problem on the page; it may be overkill. There's a brief blog entry here that talks about how, for gifted kids, more than three drills or repetitions can be excessive and they can actually begin to mis-learn concepts. Also, Level 3A may also be too easy for your child. I would look at the 4A books and see if you can move on to them. If you discover a gap later, they'll often quickly pick up what's needed. If there's a concept that you feel you must drill, making it a game to beat the timer can help some kids; the need to work quickly can sometimes add enough challenge to engage them. (But I would use this technique sparingly, not every day.)

 

Second, I would evaluate the type and amount of output that I am expecting. If, for example, the child has shown that (s)he is able to write a good narration of a passage, don't ask them to do that over and over again. If (s)he understood the material when (s)he read it, then repeated it back to you, (s)he may not see any point now to writing it down for a third time (especially if the level of the material was already easy for them). Identify what your point is to the assignment (what writing skills do you want them to work on) and see if there is a way to work on those skills in a less repetitive way.

 

Also, consider how much work you are asking the child to do independently. (S)He may simply not be ready for that level of independence yet. Especially if you increase the level of the material so that it is challenging, you may find (s)he will need more support from you at first until they build their confidence. Or break it down into smaller chunks.

 

Finally, I would consider my expectations. If your child is capable of doing the work required for their grade level (e.g., you said that they write very well), you might consider your "base" work for the year completed and move into more of an unschooling type format. Let the child read material on subjects of interest (at a challenging level), and discuss it with you, but not have to do a lot of writing or projects about it. Let them watch or listen to college-level lectures (e.g., the Great Courses from The Teaching Company), and again discuss. Explore math concepts that are beyond the normal scope and sequence - fractals, tesselations, number sequences, try Jacobs' Mathematics: A Human Endeavor. Let them explore, with less pressure to produce output, and see what they come up with. Give them lots of quality input, and let them enjoy it. The goal being to re-light the spark for learning in them.

 

ETA: Oh, and lots of :grouphug: !!!

[texasmama]

Haven't read all the replies. It sounds like you are in a power struggle with this child. I wonder what would happen if you gave the child a list of subjects to cover and asked child to choose the curriculum. It's worth a shot.

[ktgrok]

 

 

Should I have called him lazy and forced him to do those grammar & Spanish worksheets? Should I have continued to bribe him with "rewards" for reading books and made him analyze, summarize, and narrate every one? If I had, I would now have a kid heading into HS with zero internal motivation, who hated school and resisted doing anything more than the bare minimum. I don't think it would have taught him a lesson about hard work, I think it would have taught him that school sucks so badly that parents need to bribe you to do it.

 

 

 

Jackie

 

The point some of us were making that some kids, no matter what method you use, what materials, will try to get out of it ...if you have tried various approaches, harder work, easier work, different work, and they just won't do ANYTHING all day, those kids need to know that they can have input into the schoolwork, but then they need to just do it. No one was suggesting continuing with stuff the kid hates, but the OP had already tried letting the child pick something different and it didn't make a difference.

 

It doesn't have to be either/or. For instance, my son will sometimes decide he just doesn't want to read whatever book I've assigned. Maybe because it is long and that is intimidating. Maybe because he would rather play darts. Maybe because the cover of the book is yellow and he doesn't like yellow. But for whatever reason he doesn't want to do it, despite me being fairly sure he will like the book. In that situation yeah, I am the "mean mom" and I make him read. And you know what? An hour later I can't get him to go to bed because the book he was refusing to read is now "the BEST book EVER!!!". If I let him just go play darts he would have missed out on an awesome book, or maybe an awesome new series, or a new interest. Another example is when I forced him to watch science documentaries. He could pick, but he had to watch something "sciency". He moaned and groaned, but ended up watching every episode of Shark Week he could find, and now is fascinated by Marine Biology. So yeah...sometimes it isn't that the material is inappropriate (in both cases above the material was actually spot on). Sometimes gifted kids get ornery, and lazy, and have to be pushed a bit.

[melmichigan]

You know..thinking more about why sitting in his room to do his work works, and about how I manage to get unwelcome tasks done, I had a flash of insight. Maybe he, like me, needs work to be less "work" like...not sure how to say that. You know how most of the time it is advised that you do schoolwork in a separate, designated area? Or to study in a library or whatever? Well that NEVER worked for me. I do my best work if I'm in my bed. Or at least I actually get it done that way, lol. I would turn on a rerun of Law and Order (one I'd seen so I wasn't too distracted by it), get a snack, a drink, and cuddle up on my bed with my lap top. I made doing the work as comfy as possible. I used to say I tricked my brain, lol. I wonder if doing his work at his computer desk, where he plays minecraft and does his other leisure activities, surrounded by his own stuff, makes him more comfortable and thus able to focus more easily? Don't get me wrong, part of it IS that there is no drama because we DO push each other's buttons. But it may be a comfort thing. We both have sensory issues, and sititng in a hard chair at the kitchen table just doesn't work for us.

 

Have you tried letting her do the work somewhere else?

 

 

Yes, my DH doesn't always agree with it, but I don't care where thet are doing their own work (not discussion or oral work with me but their independent work). Some like the table, some their rooms, one adores the couch. If he sits at the table he takes forever, fidgets, talks with his sister, etc., but snuggled up on the cuddler it just gets done.

 

Does your DC take any outside or online class?

 

[Corraleno]

The point some of us were making that some kids, no matter what method you use, what materials, will try to get out of it ...if you have tried various approaches, harder work, easier work, different work, and they just won't do ANYTHING all day, those kids need to know that they can have input into the schoolwork, but then they need to just do it. No one was suggesting continuing with stuff the kid hates, but the OP had already tried letting the child pick something different and it didn't make a difference.

 

 

Letting the child pick FLL3 instead of Shurley, or fill in flip-book worksheets instead of regular worksheets, is not different, it's just more of the same. Of course that's not going to work.

 

Having a higher IQ doesn't mean you should just do the same work, only faster and with fewer errors. A child with an IQ of 140 is as radically different from an average (100 IQ) child as is a child with an IQ of 60. A child with an IQ of 160 is as different as one with an IQ of 40. I think a lot of people don't really get that. It's not just a matter of "more" or "less" of the same kinds of intelligence; they actually think in very different ways.

 

If a child with an IQ of 40 or 50 or 60 is using curriculum designed for an average child at that age or grade level, and it's obviously not working, changing the brand of curriculum, but not the level or approach, is not going to solve the problem. The same is true of gifted kids. Even just buying "normal" curriculum a grade or two higher may not work, because the content may still be too low while the output requirements may be too high. Gifted kids tend to think much more abstractly, they see patterns and connections that other kids their age don't, and they crave depth and understanding in an almost physical way. A gifted kid who really really wants to know the answer to something is like a terrier with a bone — they will. not. let. it. go. until they get an answer. And IME one of the things they tend to crave most is someone to discuss their ideas with.

 

Letting the child "choose" to study volcanoes, but then just substituting a flipbook for a workbook, is really no different than just making them slog through a standard curriculum — it's still output-focused busy work, instead of deep, engaging, challenging input. Reading lots of books, watching documentaries and youtube videos, and discussing them, is much more likely to be successful. Gifted kids can usually handle input at a much much higher level (often adult level or above) compared to their output. The "standard school model," with oversimplified content, lots of repetition, and fairly mindless output, is the antithesis of what gifted kids need to thrive. (IMHO it doesn't serve "average" kids well either, but that's a different issue. Average kids have an easier time surviving it; with gifted kids, that approach can totally kill any interest in learning.)

 

Of course, sometimes kids just don't wanna do something (like read a book or watch a documentary) that the parent knows they will love if they just try it. And in that case, of course it makes sense to push. But that's not what's going on with the OP's child. This sounds like a kid who is desperately bored and turned off to school, and has simply shut down. That requires a really radically different approach — not just letting her choose a different grammar curriculum.

 

Jackie

[NASDAQ]

Having a higher IQ doesn't mean you should just do the same work, only faster and with fewer errors. A child with an IQ of 140 is as radically different from an average (100 IQ) child as is a child with an IQ of 60. A child with an IQ of 160 is as different as one with an IQ of 40. I think a lot of people don't really get that. It's not just a matter of "more" or "less" of the same kinds of intelligence; they actually think in very different ways.

 

 

I went to a school that took only children with IQs 140 and above. Everyone used standard math curriculum, except faster. That's what they had back in the early nineties (in the mists of time). It was called Math Quest. I still have a copy of the first and third grade books. Nothing special.

 

I know, off hand, quite a number of people with IQs in the 140 or above range. None of them required entirely different elementary school curricula in order to reach their Very Special Giftedness.

 

A gifted kid can do worksheets. A gifted kid can do Kumon. A gifted kid might not be massively better at those things than a standard kid, but they can produce standard output.

[Corraleno]

 

I went to a school that took only children with IQs 140 and above. Everyone used standard math curriculum, except faster. That's what they had back in the early nineties (in the mists of time). It was called Math Quest. I still have a copy of the first and third grade books. Nothing special.

 

I know, off hand, quite a number of people with IQs in the 140 or above range. None of them required entirely different elementary school curricula in order to reach their Very Special Giftedness.

 

A gifted kid can do worksheets. A gifted kid can do Kumon. A gifted kid might not be massively better at those things than a standard kid, but they can produce standard output.

 

 

Well, I'm glad that you and your gifted friends have such a high tolerance for "average" work. I imagine that has made your life a great deal easier. Not all gifted kids do, though. The fact that I survived (barely) a standard education doesn't mean I was well served by it. I would certainly not subject my child to that sort of education when I have much better options available to me.

 

Jackie