Who has read TWTM and what did you think?

[Pod's mum]

Can this thread get tagged TWTM please?

Its so refreshing to have it, ta.

 

We also do not follow it fully and it is the first edition I own, re-read every so often and have again lent out.

 

I didn't find the book until we'd going for a few years with school type books. An earlier poster spoke of 'Idiot Savant' kids, this was my eldest (and to a lesser extent younger) and we lost some years due to health and life, so I also get a bit over whelmed with missing the boat.

You can't follow any formula or single fixed grade levels with very bright kids who can't remember basics and have writing problems.

But we continue to try, we're even adding Latin to her French and Indonesian this year. I started reading Dante's Comedy and dd 10, has turned it into a read aloud. We attend public uni lectures because she loves it.

This book celebrates and encourages thirsty brains. I second and third the comments that most high school texts are wasteful fluff. My eldest went to school for a bit in the middle and even with the lack of rigour we'd had, it drove us both mad that there was no challenge or meat. at. all.

 

Susan does not recomend following exactly, I'm sure it says that in the preface?

I feel confident that I will be corrected here if neccessary ;)

[Annabel Lee]

I've read & re-read TWTM, 2nd and 3rd editions which are highlighted, underlined, dog-eared, and hope to get my hands on a 1st edition someday. :) I've taken notes multiple times from SWB & Jessie Wise's audio lectures. I freely admit to feeling overwhelmed for the better part of 18 mos. when I first read & began implementing TWTM. I persevere anyhow because I believe in it. There are many things to consider that are easy to overlook at first:

 

(The "you" I use below is a general, collective "you" to whomever it applies; not the OP or anyone else specifically.)

 

1) Susan is a university professor, a historian, a published author, and was herself homeschooled by a well-educated mother. Unless you're similarly educated *and* familiar with homeschooling when you set out to implement WTM, things that are intuitive to SWB & her mom may not be to you. This is evident in the difference between TWTM logic stage writing &Susan's lectures on writing, and her published Writing With Skill for the logic stage.

 

2) In this same vein of thought, it was a mistake for me to jump from where I was into trying to follow TWTM precisely. I only had a high school diploma, and it was a mediocre education at best. I had always relied 100% on the scripted teacher's manuals I used before TWTM. I was too inexperienced to know that just because I adopted the practices recommended by such a scholarly lot, the results would not automatically match. I treated it like a formula in which we could all reach the same outcome. In a way, I still think that is true, but it's more complicated and involves a great deal more work for me than I originally knew. Again, a person can teach from their own well of knowledge & experience but if they do not yet have it, it might not occur to them something is even missing. This is where self-education, DVD/computer/online courses, and outsourcing become necessary. Anyone can do it, but for people with a background similar to mine, I think it's best for the parent to prepare for TWTM early if at all possible, and to start incrementally if switching mid-stream (i.e., switch only one or a few subjects over to TWTM method at a time, slowly, until proficiency in using the method is achieved).

 

2) SWB says in the book or on one of her lectures that TWTM is their recommendation for how to do many possible areas of study, not a recommendation to do all of those listed subjects all at once. She gives an example of rotating or alternating extras like art, music appreciation, etc.

 

3) There is more philosophy behind the method than even the book fully explains. I struggled to believe the useful purpose of some things; grammar stage history memorization included. It took quite some time and exposure to other classical education models for me to realize the usefulness of certain aspects. It works like a puzzle that comes together beautifully in the end - some parts might appear to be random, unrelated bits at the time, but the memorization, etc. will be useful later. It's not required, but familiarity certainly makes an easier go of those lofty goals in the higher grades.

 

4) There is a chapter(s) in TWTM on starting in the middle, so all is not lost if you've missed the grammar (or even logic) stage but want to pursue a classical education. How far a student gets in TWTM by the end of 12th gr. might vary due to a late start, but as an example, any study of rhetoric in high school at all is more than what most students are doing.

 

5) A wise veteran hser once told me that if she had to wake every morning to implement someone else's vision in her homeschool, she'd probably rather lie in bed. She described meshing what resonated with her from TWTM with her own passions, talents, and vision. This broke me of trying to plug away at homeschooling robotically as if TWTM were only a formula.

 

6) It's easier than it might seem. I've heard some say they loved TWTM upon first read because of how interwoven the subjects are & how streamlined it is. I, in my inexperience, did not recognize this. I've come to appreciate it and I try to guard this aspect. It's easy to sub out other things for individual subjects, but too much of that takes away from the overall cross-curricular, interwoven nature. Another great thing about it is that even though with TWTM you're following a prescribed overall plan, you can pick your own books for literature, history, and science. Specific spines are used, and supplements are suggested, but in so many places (TWTM, WWE hardback, lectures) SWB mentions choosing your own books so that no part of the curriculum seems like an arbitrary, unconnected piece.

 

Finally, I hope everyone feels welcome here, WTM follower or not. It is true this forum is a great help and impressive resource of collective knowledge, useful to many homeschoolers, not just WTMers. Hopefully my rambling is of some use to someone out there reading.

[Mommy22alyns]

TWTM was the first book on home education that was recommended to me. I wish I remembered who recommended it to me, because I would love to thank her. TWTM laid everything out so nicely that I really felt like, "I can do this." It's the education I wish I'd had. I don't follow it strictly right now, but I use a lot of the methods and regularly refer to it. I was just looking over the logic stage section recently. :scared: <----- Me because Rebecca will be a fifth grader next year.

 

Susan, I really do recommend you read it even though I know you're completely happy with what you're doing. Even if you don't implement it, there are so many great bits of information in there that you might incorporate with Seton.

[jillian]

We too use it as a model but with a child who at 4.5 was doing Singapore 1a/1b and flying through it and teaching herself to read and absorbing everything science related we had to tweak heavily. I also only have one. This upcoming year we are doing Latin, Greek, Spanish, 3rd grade math, piano, music and art appreciation, earth/astronomy science and so forth. She'll be 5.5 when we start this upcoming school year. It's nice to know that I can challenge her with good stuff instead of making her crazy by forcing her to conform.

[LucyStoner]

Now we hear that we should be teaching our ninth graders Aristotle and Hippocrates? Our tenth graders Copernicus and Kepler? Eleventh gradersNewton? And twelfth graders should be reading Einstein, Behe, and Hawking?

 

I didn't study all of that in those grades but I did study everything you listed besides Behe in my public high school. We also read Descartes and had classes like "Diaspora" and "Systems Theory". I took 4 years of poetry with an amazing teacher and we read through, discussed and wrote about many classics. We also had a student poetry reading that was a draw beyond students and their families at a big bookstore and a radio show covering science, political affairs and more at a local broadcast station. I don't think that these are out of reach for high schoolers. I was always tracked academically gifted but I was so not a super genius or prodigy. I just went to a small public magnet with motivated students and for the most part really dedicated teachers. I didn't really go to middle school at all and my elementary education was a new school 1-3 times a year with little, if any, rigor. Many of my classmates had meh educational backgrounds as well. I don't even think you need the perfect preparation to learn such things in high school. College is more and more oriented to career preparation, with highly technical pursuits. Many college students will never get the opportunity to study these things. You aren't much older as a college freshman than you were as a high school senior. Why not study them in high school?

[LucyStoner]

We don't follow the WTM exactly, but it has been an influence. We do a fair bit of memorization but little, if any copy work and dictation. I have a highly gifted son with autism and have found homeschooling to be the best way to accomodate his needs. The WTM is a guide and a list of great ideas. Not a recipe. Pick and choose as you will. You know best for your kids.

[NoseInABook]

I picked up the book when my first child was 4. We were researching methods and TWTM came highly recommended. I read the bit on kindergarten and breathed a sigh of relief that what I had put together myself was pretty much what was recommended. Of course, I finished the book and have come back to it for refreshers several times in the past year. I actually had it in my hands before coming to the forums tonight while I sketch out the ideas for my daughter's first grade curriculum this coming Fall. While we likely won't follow it to a T for every one of our children, we do stick very closely to it and definitely support classical education.

[JFJ in IL]

I read it and loved it! I am very grateful to have stumbled upon TWTM when I did!

I am following the classical approach as closely as my children's learning styles will allow.

The detailed advice and well researched curriculum recommendations have been invaluable to our homeschooling journey :)

[Nan in Mass]

I agree with all of Annabel Lee's post, but two things particularly struck me:

 

2) SWB says in the book or on one of her lectures that TWTM is their recommendation for how to do many possible areas of study, not a recommendation to do all of those listed subjects all at once. She gives an example of rotating or alternating extras like art, music appreciation, etc.

 

Yes. This. The book gives directions for going far in each subject. Very few students are going to go that far in ALL subjects. We tended to choose one to focus on each year, one to do lightly each year, and did the rest in a sort of medium way. This meant that mine weren't always doing TWTM recommendations that matched their age. Sometimes they were ahead. Sometimes they were behind. Sometimes we departed entirely from TWTM in an effort to be efficient (like combining history and French) or because it was a subject I couldn't do justice to (like chemistry). My children each had their own slownesses and quicknesses, which made them diverge further from their age recommendations. There were years when they were busy doing something else (like gymnastics) and we kept school to a minimum and didn't do some things. We never did do much art history because none of us were interested in it. There were years when I used everything in TWTM and invented a few more (grammar stage for my youngest, when I opted to go for breadth to keep him busy rather than have him skip grades or rush things). Many people seem to miss this bit of the directions and feel overwhelmed trying to do every single recommendation.

 

3) There is more philosophy behind the method than even the book fully explains. I struggled to believe the useful purpose of some things; grammar stage history memorization included. It took quite some time and exposure to other classical education models for me to realize the usefulness of certain aspects. It works like a puzzle that comes together beautifully in the end - some parts might appear to be random, unrelated bits at the time, but the memorization, etc. will be useful later. It's not required, but familiarity certainly makes an easier go of those lofty goals in the higher grades.

 

All the pieces came together for me when I wanted to teach my children study skills so they could take community college chemistry. Suddenly, I saw why all those foundational WTM skills were so important (and wished we'd done more of them - sigh). TWTM is designed to teach basic academic skills, everything one needs to be able to do in order to teach oneself something in an academic way. That includes the STUDY SKILLS needed to succeed at college, the skills needed to research something and present those findings either orally or in writing when at work, the skills needed to learn a foreign language and something about a culture and country in order to travel there, the skills needed to teach oneself something like electronics for a hobby, and the skills needed to keep abreast of current politics, scientific discoveries, and historical research.

 

Nan

[AimeeM]

I know I'll get flamed. Lol.

I've skimmed it. I'm not willing to read it. Why? Because the style appeals to me... as in, it's the type of education I would have enjoyed... but it isn't the type of education we want for our children, nor is it a style we are comfortable teaching; the goals and priorities are different from those we have for our children. If I read it entirely, I'm sure I'll want to try it again... and the first (only) time I tried to implement it, it was a disaster for my dd. Regardless, again, it simply doesn't fit in well with our goals and the education we want our children to receive.

There are, however, some wonderful suggestions for homeschoolers across the board, regardless of method used.

On that note, I love many of her other products (her writing, her grammar, her history books, etc) and plan to use those with my younger two, barring any learning differences (my dd is dyslexic; WWE and FLL didn't work well with her).

In general, I don't like to read things that will make me want for something else, when what I'm doing is working. If it *ain't* broke, *don't* fix it, lol. Just as many wise souls on the board recommend staying clear of the curriculum lists when you're happy with what you have, I choose to stay away from reading more thoroughly TWTM because I'm happy with where we are right now.

[DianeW88]

Another thing to remember is that just because you (generic "you" here) weren't exposed to certain materials until you were in college doesn't mean that's when someone SHOULD be exposed to those materials. I think most of the books SWB recommends for high school are spot on. Now I will say that I was very blessed and had the opportunity to have an excellent classical education going to private schools in my youth. I was forced (and I do mean forced) to take four years of Latin in high school For which I'm deeply grateful. But at the time.... Anyway, just a reminder not to hold your kiddos to the standards of any particular institution you may have attended, and think that is the "correct" way to educate children. Always aim higher. If you shoot for the moon and miss....at least you've hit the stars.

[Jane in NC]

Another thing to remember is that just because you (generic "you" here) weren't exposed to certain materials until you were in college doesn't mean that's when someone SHOULD be exposed to those materials. I think most of the books SWB recommends for high school are spot on. Now I will say that I was very blessed and had the opportunity to have an excellent classical education going to private schools in my youth. I was forced (and I do mean forced) to take four years of Latin in high school For which I'm deeply grateful. But at the time.... Anyway, just a reminder not to hold your kiddos to the standards of any particular institution you may have attended, and think that is the "correct" way to educate children. Always aim higher. If you shoot for the moon and miss....at least you've hit the stars.

Diane inspires me to offer a quote from The Prince (Niccolo Machiavelli):

 

So a prudent man should always follow in the footsteps of great men and imitate those who have been outstanding... He should behave like those archers who, if they are skilful, when the target seems too distant, know the capabilities of their bow and aim a good deal higher than their objective, not in order to shoot so high but so that by aiming high they can reach the target.

[Hunter]

I was not offended but clarifying what I "heard" you saying. I wanted to make sure that I hadn't overstepped any boundaries. I am new here and came on the recommendation that it was ok to be here if I didn't use the method. If that was wrong, I needed to know about it. :001_smile:

 

Certain of the subforums here have different flavors, and attract different people; I usually only post in the K-8 curriculum board. I also notice ebbs and flows of TWTM rigidity, conservative vs liberal, Christian vs other, etc. This thread's tone surprised me, compared to what I have seen over the past year. Hmmm. Thinking and watching and...a little :(

 

I first read a library copy of the 1st edition TWTM back in the late 90s. Some of the parts that I liked the least, I now like the best :wub: 1 1/2 decades later, and teaching different types of students. I know things now I didn't then. on the other hand I've also suffered some brain damage and PTSD :biggrinjester: so no longer know and can do some of the things I did then. Times change. People change. Sometimes over enough time, we are even teaching different students.

 

A rigid implementation of TWTM is not possible for some families. It just is NOT. :willy_nilly: :smash: :banghead: I remember being shamed into attempting to give my youngest what he "deserved", and I then made some of my biggest homeschool mistakes ever.

 

I'm not feeling safe enough to say more in this thread, so am going to click out of this subforum--never mind just this thread--and head over to the K-8 where I feel safer. :seeya: :auto:

[Nan in Mass]

Diane inspires me to offer a quote from The Prince (Niccolo Machiavelli):

 

I knew there was no way we would ARRIVE high, but I also knew that if I didn't AIM high, we WOULD arrive LOW. Instead, by aiming high, we managed to arrive someplace else altogether lol, someplace that I hadn't envisioned.

 

Nan

[StartingOver]

Read every edition, the first in 1999, then 2009 when I started all over with little ones. Had to later get 2004 just to have it, read it also ! I adore it so much that we are doing it all again. Not everything as suggested but the spirit is still there.

[DianeW88]

I think another problem is many parents feel the implementation of TWTM methods can be dull, dry and boring, which discourages a lot of people from even trying. Well, I HATE drudgery, and there is no way I want our school to be that way. We have fun with all of that classical "stuff". We study Shakespeare when the kids are little. We start with Julius Caesar (no sex in that play) and we act it out...either with our Playmobil "Ancient Rome" set, or as our own play. Caesar has had some VERY dramatic, drawn out death scenes in our house. :D The kids love it. We also incorporate lots of hands-on projects, recipes (Ever eat a Roman dinner lying on cushions in your living room while trying to only speak Latin?), artwork, music, etc., etc. While my philosophy is classical and TWTM is my guide, my method is unit studies. I use KONOS as my guidebook (their high school curriculum is excellent for all things classical), and then build my own projects and fun activities with SWB's schedule and books. My kids have beautiful notebooks, but they also have lots of 3-D projects, and experiential activities as well. School can and should be fun. Rigor and fun are not mutually exclusive. Nor should they be. Have fun with your kids and ENJOY your home schooling time. It goes by so fast!

[momto2Cs]

Having said that, I originally read TWTM (1st edition) back when ds11 was 5. And I totally fell in love with it. I tried very hard to implement it, and it sort of worked. Then dd reached school age, and it all fell apart. She was not the type to thrive with this education, at least not at that point. We then went with Charlotte Mason, unschooling, a little Waldorf, unit studies... you name it, we tried it.

Now that they are older, and more focused/capable, I find we are making a natural progression back to TWTM as an overarching theory for homeschooling. I refer fairly frequently to both the 1st and 3rd editions of the book. We do not follow it to the letter by any means, but I find the booklists helpful, the ideas and themes and theories very useful. I basically pick and choose from it what I want to accomplish with my kids.

I work part-time as a reader for college level English courses (my second job, being also a secretary), and I can tell you, I wish high school students had the type of reading level/background referenced in this thread. The majority of the students are poorly read, cannot write fluently, cannot analyze their source material, and generally have a faltering grasp on grammar and language mechanics. These are high school graduates. With that in mind, I do plan to shoot for the stars with my kids.

Think of TWTM as a reference guide, not an end to a means, but rather a method to attempt applying.

[airforcefamily]

I bought the book, skimmed it, read a few pages here and there, put it down, tried reading more of it here and there, didn't care for it, and sold it after awhile. The method and huge book (and other) 'checklists' didn't appeal to me. I felt it is too rigid and non science oriented for us. I also don't agree with all the copy work, I've thought a lot about copy work and have decided that it occasionally has it's place but isn't really something I want to spend time on constantly.

 

I'm religiously opposed to her history books and am not willing to use them but I do like most of FLL and parts of WWE. I do like how grammar is emphasized.

 

I guess it comes down to me wanting my kids to read about what interests them instead of books someone else has decided are appropriate. Part of it is probably that there are too many kids for me to sit and quietly read to them, ask questions, and listen to their retelling of a story (writing down what they say when it comes to younger ones). It would be great if I could do that but there just isn't time. There also isn't time to convince each of them to do work we all find boring and repetitive.

[TexasRachel]

One thing I remember SWB saying about the original edition was that the publisher wanted all the schedules in because they were afraid it wouldn't be taken seriously. But that SWB actually didn't do the schedules that were in there because they were too much. So yes, use what you wish from it, but don't rule out something because it seems to hard or too boring. I skipped copy work and dictation with dd because of it and now I wish I hadn't. They are useful precursor skills. My DSs will be doing them until they come out their ears.

[airforcefamily]

To each their own. Curriculum that is so boring that kids have to be bribed or screamed at to get them to do it is, IMO, something that I am going to rule out. Same would go for something that is 'hard'. I wouldn't give preschooler college level work. Why? It's too hard for them. I'll pick something right for them and wait until they're ready for what is too difficult now. A good, solid foundation can be had without work that makes everyone hate learning.

[swellmomma]

To each their own. Curriculum that is so boring that kids have to be bribed or screamed at to get them to do it is, IMO, something that I am going to rule out. Same would go for something that is 'hard'. I wouldn't give preschooler college level work. Why? It's too hard for them. I'll pick something right for them and wait until they're ready for what is too difficult now. A good, solid foundation can be had without work that makes everyone hate learning.

 

Well we are not talking about giving preschoolers college level work are we? That would be ridiculous. We are discussing giving 16-17 years old work that some didn't see until 18-19, big difference. I do not believe that life is all fun, and games and easy. I want my kids to learn that sometimes things are boring but you still have to do them. I expect them to be challenged not look for the easy way out. Teaching something "hard" teaches them to persevere and work through difficult things rather than passing the buck or looking for the easy way out. Learning to do because it is to be done whether it is boring or hard is the development of a life long positive work ethic imo.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

To each their own. Curriculum that is so boring that kids have to be bribed or screamed at to get them to do it is, IMO, something that I am going to rule out. Same would go for something that is 'hard'. I wouldn't give preschooler college level work. Why? It's too hard for them. I'll pick something right for them and wait until they're ready for what is too difficult now. A good, solid foundation can be had without work that makes everyone hate learning.

 

Yeah, I would hate that, too. We homeschool so our children won't be bored or hate learning.

 

What I don't understand is why you are talking about curriculum that is boring or too hard or college level work in a thread about WTM and neo-classical home education. We think this kind of education is interesting, entertaining, challenging, and exactly the right level. My sons are 8, 12, 14, and 16 years old, and we've always homeschooled this way. We're not bored. Nobody has to be bribed or screamed at. LOL Surely you can understand that millions of children have studied these books at these ages, both today and in the past. Long past.

[DianeW88]

To each their own. Curriculum that is so boring that kids have to be bribed or screamed at to get them to do it is, IMO, something that I am going to rule out. Same would go for something that is 'hard'. I wouldn't give preschooler college level work. Why? It's too hard for them. I'll pick something right for them and wait until they're ready for what is too difficult now. A good, solid foundation can be had without work that makes everyone hate learning.

If children are so bored with their schoolwork that they need to bribed or screamed at (?) to complete it, then it is the fault of the teacher for not having the skill necessary to present the material in an engaging and appealing manner. And if a teacher is deeming a particular book or subject matter as boring then that is often a reflection of their lack of knowledge concerning said material. Either way, the teacher has some work to do on his or her part. Hard work is not something to be avoided in life if your objective is to raise children who are able to function independently with self-motivation and a desire to succeed in the world. Hard work is what separates the achievers from the slackers in society. Those who do what they can to avoid "hard" things generally end up in the latter category. Something I think I can safely say most parents on this board want to avoid.

[LucyStoner]

An average middling high school science textbook can bore anyone, even those interested in science. Newton et al are way more interesting than that!

[Julie Smith]

 

I work part-time as a reader for college level English courses

 

What does this job involve? I can't picture anything plausible. Unless you are reading things out loud to visually impaired students, or something like that.

[momto2Cs]

 

What does this job involve? I can't picture anything plausible. Unless you are reading things out loud to visually impaired students, or something like that.

 

Nope. I just read and grade English essays at home. Nice flexible work that pays for fencing and roller derby for the kids!

[PachiSusan]

Certain of the subforums here have different flavors, and attract different people; I usually only post in the K-8 curriculum board. I also notice ebbs and flows of TWTM rigidity, conservative vs liberal, Christian vs other, etc. This thread's tone surprised me, compared to what I have seen over the past year. Hmmm. Thinking and watching and...a little :(

 

I first read a library copy of the 1st edition TWTM back in the late 90s. Some of the parts that I liked the least, I now like the best :wub: 1 1/2 decades later, and teaching different types of students. I know things now I didn't then. on the other hand I've also suffered some brain damage and PTSD :biggrinjester: so no longer know and can do some of the things I did then. Times change. People change. Sometimes over enough time, we are even teaching different students.

 

A rigid implementation of TWTM is not possible for some families. It just is NOT. :willy_nilly: :smash: :banghead: I remember being shamed into attempting to give my youngest what he "deserved", and I then made some of my biggest homeschool mistakes ever.

 

I'm not feeling safe enough to say more in this thread, so am going to click out of this subforum--never mind just this thread--and head over to the K-8 where I feel safer. :seeya: :auto:

 

Thank you for your comments here. It means a lot to me. :) I'm so sorry about the bolded!

[briansmama]

I agree with the pp who said that children can rise to meet the expectations of a classical education as outlined in the WTM. This is what keeps me coming back for more!

[misty.warden]

TWTM is the book that made me fall in love with homeschooling way back before Ds was even born. I remember at least two places where SWB and her mother say that almost no one will follow the book exactly and we're not expected to, substitutions are allowed and encouraged, there's even a chapter on kids who don't want to continue a lofty, classical education for high school (I believe it's the "Some kids hate Homer" chapter) that encourages parents to look into apprenticeships and such if Aristotle really is more than their dc wants to have in their life. That being said, I think the general attitude in ps about what is appropriate difficulty for high school books is very lowest common denominator. Homeschool gives the flexibility for kids who have the skills to progress faster than their peers without being held down or labelled as nerds, and slower or less mature kids get the time they need to work at their own pace.

[Nan in Mass]

To each their own. Curriculum that is so boring that kids have to be bribed or screamed at to get them to do it is, IMO, something that I am going to rule out. Same would go for something that is 'hard'. I wouldn't give preschooler college level work. Why? It's too hard for them. I'll pick something right for them and wait until they're ready for what is too difficult now. A good, solid foundation can be had without work that makes everyone hate learning.

 

 

Of course it can. Everyone has to learn to work hard, but being a bit uncomfortable while you learn to work hard or do something challenging or even do something unpalatable or boring to achieve a goal, and doing something too difficult or something that makes one hate learning are not the same thing. As you said, the latter defeats the purpose.

 

I happened to find with my children that copywork (and then dictaion) was an easy way to teach them how to write, much easier and less boring than things like workbooks. We just did ten minutes a few times a week. It was no big deal and was a nice applied, whole-to-parts way of learning that suited my children. We could use quotes from books that sounded like the way they were trying to write. If it didn't work for your family and if the reading lists weren't a good cultural match and if the educational goals weren't yours, then I'll just say I hope you found something more suited for your family. : )

 

Nan

[Joker]

I have read through the first and third editions. They are dog-eared, marked up, and look well used. TWTM was a huge success here my first year homeschooling because of its emphasis on history. The first thing my oldest dd asked when I pulled her out of elementary school was if she could finally do history because she did none in public school. Both dds ate it up. I stuck to much of our schooling being centered around time periods and history, but did let some things go (such as Latin). So, we didn't stick to the WTM plan completely but we gained so much good from what we did implement. The book was also an inspiration to me and re-energized me when I needed it. Our homeschooling journey looks like it will be ending this fall when both dds enter middle school, but I will be keeping my copies just in case (or for ideas for things for them to do in the summer time :D ).

[lea1]

I happened across my first WTM book when our sons were babies, although we already knew we wanted to homeschool. I can't remember now where I found my first WTM book but it was the first homeschooling related book I owned and read. I had no idea what this book was to the homeschooling world at that time. But after I read it, I knew I wanted to use it as our road map for our homeschooling journey. My two sons just started 2nd grade in January and we have followed it fairly closely so far. I still love it refer to it often. I also really like FLL, WWE and SOTW. I plan to use it in our homeschool to the end.

[linders]

Read it (several times), like the overall philosophy, and appreciate the lofty goals, and the cyclic world history absolutely resonated with me. I do think you need to consider the individual child, and for my DC and me, some of the approaches aren't the best.

 

- Science - we love hands on stuff but need a stronger framework in the logic stage, hence using Prentice-Hall Science Explorer along with our experiments.

- History - after SOTW, using Kingfisher as a spine for logic stage was blah, so we use K12's Human Odyessy and love it. (Wish K12 would hire SWN to do an associated activity guide.)

- Memorization, okay, good for developing brain, but Egyptian dynasties - seriously? The boys actually find a lot of other stuff to memorize (although SWB does not recommend memorizing all the Star Wars characters, in order of appearance, or Boy Scout lore).

[PachiSusan]

Read it (several times), like the overall philosophy, and appreciate the lofty goals, and the cyclic world history absolutely resonated with me. I do think you need to consider the individual child, and for my DC and me, some of the approaches aren't the best.

 

- Science - we love hands on stuff but need a stronger framework in the logic stage, hence using Prentice-Hall Science Explorer along with our experiments.

- History - after SOTW, using Kingfisher as a spine for logic stage was blah, so we use K12's Human Odyessy and love it. (Wish K12 would hire SWN to do an associated activity guide.)

- Memorization, okay, good for developing brain, but Egyptian dynasties - seriously? The boys actually find a lot of other stuff to memorize (although SWB does not recommend memorizing all the Star Wars characters, in order of appearance, or Boy Scout lore).

 

snicker!!!!

[laughing lioness]

 

I work part-time as a reader for college level English courses (my second job, being also a secretary), and I can tell you, I wish high school students had the type of reading level/background referenced in this thread. The majority of the students are poorly read, cannot write fluently, cannot analyze their source material, and generally have a faltering grasp on grammar and language mechanics. These are high school graduates. With that in mind, I do plan to shoot for the stars with my kids.

 

 

I act as a TA for upper level college classes and the writing is often pretty basic. Simple sentence structure, basic vocab understanding and ability to synthesize material is often lacking. Having to follow a mandatory lit style is often beyond the grasp of many.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Love WTM. Love. Do I use it all? No. Is it completely perfect for each of my kids, exactly as it is laid out? No. But it is an incredible resource. SWB wrote what she knows. She put out an incredible resource for homeschoolers, and it is a GIANT pet peeve of mine for people to get their panties all in a wad acting like she thinks every homeschooler should do it her way. No. She merely wrote what she knows, and boy does she know it! Does she know your kid? No. Does she know your family? No. So, fine. Make decisions for your family, kids, values, etc. I promise you, SWB doesn't mind.

 

ETA: And this was not directed at the OP, by the way. Just expressing some pent up irritation. :tongue_smilie:

[Nan in Mass]

...Times change. People change. Sometimes over enough time, we are even teaching different students....

 

 

 

I've had different seasons in my homeschooling, too. You are right - different things in TWTM have been useful at different times and some of the things I thought we would never do we wound up doing, while things I thought we would do wound up not getting done... You are right about why things varied, too. The variation wasn't just because of the particular child I was teaching or the particular age - I've been doing this long enough now that I myself have changed and grown just as much as my children have.

 

Hunter - I haven't ventured onto this board much, either. I find it pretty overwhelming, especially with no hybrid format to condense it.

 

Nan

[elegantlion]

We turned to classical ed in 5th grade. We started with an Latin-Centered Curriculum approach and that is the philosophy I relate with. However, WTM has been invaluable in how to implement the parts of classical education I deem important. I've skimmed the grammar stage material, but I believe in the skills that SWB recommends building in logic stage and beyond. And we did make it fun, it had to be, otherwise I would be bored. But fun doesn't have to be built into the curriculum.

 

Also listening to some lectures from PHP helps me see more of her vision. There are also videos on youtube where you can so how relaxed and non-rigid SWB actually is.

 

I have an average student with some delays. We'll be reading Plato and Aristotle later this year. Because I listened and exposed ds to logic and philosophy topics in the logic stage, he's asking to read Aristotle in 9th grade. I'll speak for boys, as that is all I have, but I we can do them a disservice to not challenge their thinking in those pre-teen years. I looked a lot of regular 6th-8th grade curriculum for regular school and it seems to be a shoring up and coasting material, to get kids through those chaotic puberty years. WTM and classical ed instead dips down and challenges those kids. Will every kid respond to the material? No. SWB's latest video discusses high school, it's short, free, and worth a listen. WTM allows me to have a gauge when to challenge my child, what materials might be best suited (and I use a lot of my own choosing as well), and what the path might look like in the end.

 

I don't think it's a book you read once and then decide it's not for you. It's best taken in increments. I read the one copy at the bookstore for about a year before I could afford to purchase it. I still pull it off the shelf about once a month to look up something. I also re-read LCC each year. I also stay plugged in here, especially the high school board, to listen to those who are ahead of me (or with me) on the journey. WTM is a tool, part of my arsenal of information to get ds through high school and into college as a well spoken confident person.

[Candid]

My oldest read Aristotle's Poetics last year in ninth grade. It's doable.

[Critterfixer]

I've read the book several times. I think it is easy to go into the philosophy with a lot of enthusiasm and then be really depressed when ivory-tower meets reality. I know that I almost despaired when my boys turned out to need a lot more work on learning how to read than the book seemed to indicate. It wasn't a matter of want-to, or even a matter of phonics instruction. We just really, really had to work at it before it made sense to them.

I remember thinking how nice it was to be able to read aloud a lot of the material and how we were all going to be steeped in literature. Of course my youngest, the one who needed the language enrichment has a strong dislike of read-alouds of any sort!

I remember thinking that a focus on real literature for reading was a good idea. Now I am so thankful for readers at grade level with good stories.

I remember thinking that narration was going to be a piece of cake. :001_rolleyes: Maybe. Depends on the cake I suppose.

 

So now the boys are in third grade and we still have a classical education philosophy, tempered by the reality of MY little boys. And in all fairness, I think that is exactly how it was meant to be taken. This is not a plug-in and go sort of education method. And one shouldn't be discouraged if things don't go according to schedule, or if some things just don't work for you. What doesn't work one year may be easy the next year. A skill that takes more time to learn (like reading or math) doesn't mean you've failed somehow. Sometimes the things we have to wrestle with give us courage to take on difficult things in the future.

But I've been impressed with how disciplined the boys have become with their work. I've been delighted at what they are willing to try. I'm shocked by the capacity of their minds for memorization. And to hear them rattle off their vocabulary and make connections with their Latin grammar makes me very happy that we stuck with it, despite the difficulties, soul-searching and just general whining on my part of how we were NEVER going to make this work.

[Nscribe]

I read it and go back to it several times a year. I also read Creative Homeschooling by Lisa Rivero and visit it from time to time. Actually, over time I have read and looked into all sorts of educational pedagogies, philosophies....

 

I was not looking for a detailed must do list. I did enter homeschooling wanting to absorb the guidance of "been there done that" from others. The WTM approach appeals to me as an organizing philosophy. The book contains a wealth of suggested resources and I like thinking of k-12 learning as a progression of stages. The Grammar/ Logic/ Rhetoric progression does seem to match with developmental stages.

 

I admire anyone who takes the time to sit down, think through and then clearly articulate a plan. TWTM does so.

[myfunnybunch]

To each their own. Curriculum that is so boring that kids have to be bribed or screamed at to get them to do it is, IMO, something that I am going to rule out. Same would go for something that is 'hard'. I wouldn't give preschooler college level work. Why? It's too hard for them. I'll pick something right for them and wait until they're ready for what is too difficult now. A good, solid foundation can be had without work that makes everyone hate learning.

 

A well-structured classical education prepares students for rigorous challenging materials that meet their needs and feed their brains. I've heard and read over and over the ideas that classical=boring, rigorous="too hard" and working hard for one's education=not developmentally appropriate. This simply doesn't match the actual experiences of many classical homeschoolers.

 

I wouldn't give a preschooler college level work either. But I would give a high school student challenging material that meets their needs and abilities. And I can prepare them for it without screaming, yelling, or making them hate learning. As a matter of fact, my boys tend to respond better to more challenging material. Why? They're bright kids, but not gifted, and they're pretty typical active boys who don't always love to sit and do school. But they thrive when they are challenged.

 

Cat

[swellmomma]

I've had different seasons in my homeschooling, too. You are right - different things in TWTM have been useful at different times and some of the things I thought we would never do we wound up doing, while things I thought we would do wound up not getting done... You are right about why things varied, too. The variation wasn't just because of the particular child I was teaching or the particular age - I've been doing this long enough now that I myself have changed and grown just as much as my children have.

 

Hunter - I haven't ventured onto this board much, either. I find it pretty overwhelming, especially with no hybrid format to condense it.

 

Nan

 

Nan I have been reading old post of yours (like circa 2008 ish) as I prep for high school with my teens. It made me think of those reading TWTM for the first time when their kids are small vs once they are in high school and the thoughts of goals etc. When you wrote those posts in 2008, I was new to the board, my kids were in 3rd/4th grade, it was our 2nd year homeschooling and all of the things you wrote back then looked to hard to attain and I was sure my kids would never be ready for it etc. Reading them (and posts from others that were doing high school back then), over the last couple days have been enlightening. The things listed my kids are doing or are ready for. High school doesn't seem quite as daunting, the things listed not so pie in the sky kwim.

 

Those that feel that way now with young kids may find themselves on the other side of this discussion when their kids hit high school and they realize how much their students can handle and the education they want for them. And they will be encouraging the new crop of parents teaching younger kids, to stay the course and believe their kids will be able to do the high school readings etc listed in the book.

[Nan in Mass]

Nan I have been reading old post of yours (like circa 2008 ish) as I prep for high school with my teens. It made me think of those reading TWTM for the first time when their kids are small vs once they are in high school and the thoughts of goals etc. When you wrote those posts in 2008, I was new to the board, my kids were in 3rd/4th grade, it was our 2nd year homeschooling and all of the things you wrote back then looked to hard to attain and I was sure my kids would never be ready for it etc. Reading them (and posts from others that were doing high school back then), over the last couple days have been enlightening. The things listed my kids are doing or are ready for. High school doesn't seem quite as daunting, the things listed not so pie in the sky kwim.

 

Those that feel that way now with young kids may find themselves on the other side of this discussion when their kids hit high school and they realize how much their students can handle and the education they want for them. And they will be encouraging the new crop of parents teaching younger kids, to stay the course and believe their kids will be able to do the high school readings etc listed in the book.

 

 

I remember feeling like that. That's why I just skimmed the high school section the first time I read TWTM. I couldn't imagine us doing anything there. Large chunks of the reading list I'd never heard of and I didn't even know what some subjects were, as subjects, like rhetoric. I found TWTM board really scary at first. I spent a year or so just peeking occasionally and quickly leaving again because I was so intimidated. Grin - some of TWTM still seems pretty unattainable. Many of the posts are still intimidating. I just spent EIGHT YEARS being in a panic because unlike what seems like the entire rest of the high school board, we haven't done any AP classes (that didn't go away until youngest was accepted to college). We've had our failures and regrets but it seems to have worked out. Mine have gone further than TWTM rec's in a few subjects -calc-based physics, conversational French - what an odd thought! And I have to say, as a guide, TWTM was excellent because I didn't outgrow it.

 

swellmomma, those posts from 2008 or so were when the middle one was graduating from high school and the youngest was beginning high school and I was worried because youngest was so different from his older brothers. Now youngest is graduating from high school this spring and looking back, I can't believe how well the systems I put in place for the older one worked for his younger brother. The same with TWTM curriculum that they did together. For example, youngest is taking composition at the community college this semester and was totally frustrated at the rest of the class's inability to do some of the things that my children learned ages ago in Writing Strands. We had our ups and downs with it, but it did lay a good foundation for discussing literature later. The older one had the exact same complaint when he took comp 1. It's funny.

 

If I were transported back in time to read those posts in about 2000, I would have been amazed and said there was no way we were ever going to get there.

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

...This is not a plug-in and go sort of education method. And one shouldn't be discouraged if things don't go according to schedule, or if some things just don't work for you. ...

 

No. And you know what? I think that is exactly why it worked for us. My children are... um... odd. A curriculum that sent us a 5th grade math book and a 5th grade reader and 5th grade writing assignments and 5th grade science would have been a total disaster. The science would have bored them to tears. One would have been bored with the math and the other incapable of doing it. Neither could have managed the writing but they would have been way past the reader. They would have flunked everything, just about, either because they passively resisted the low level or because they were incapable of doing the work. What I needed was a book that contained the whole k-12 in one book so I could see where we were supposed to be going and work wherever they were at the moment. TWTM allowed me to split the skills from the content and the input from the output, so they could do lower level written work for higher level reading. They could be reading Plato's Republic and at the same time, be learning how to write paragraphs with topic sentences. Instead of reading about a boy's struggles with a new teacher at school, they could be thinking about how Beowulf was going to deal with Grendel (sp?). Much more boy friendly. I really needed TWTM to be in the format that it was. And as I said in a previous post, it allowed us all to grow into it.

 

Nan

[Jayne J]

 

 

Certain of the subforums here have different flavors, and attract different people; I usually only post in the K-8 curriculum board. I also notice ebbs and flows of TWTM rigidity, conservative vs liberal, Christian vs other, etc. This thread's tone surprised me, compared to what I have seen over the past year. Hmmm. Thinking and watching and...a little :(

 

I first read a library copy of the 1st edition TWTM back in the late 90s. Some of the parts that I liked the least, I now like the best :wub: 1 1/2 decades later, and teaching different types of students. I know things now I didn't then. on the other hand I've also suffered some brain damage and PTSD :biggrinjester: so no longer know and can do some of the things I did then. Times change. People change. Sometimes over enough time, we are even teaching different students.

 

A rigid implementation of TWTM is not possible for some families. It just is NOT. :willy_nilly: :smash: :banghead: I remember being shamed into attempting to give my youngest what he "deserved", and I then made some of my biggest homeschool mistakes ever.

 

I'm not feeling safe enough to say more in this thread, so am going to click out of this subforum--never mind just this thread--and head over to the K-8 where I feel safer. :seeya: :auto:

 

 

 

I've had different seasons in my homeschooling, too. You are right - different things in TWTM have been useful at different times and some of the things I thought we would never do we wound up doing, while things I thought we would do wound up not getting done... You are right about why things varied, too. The variation wasn't just because of the particular child I was teaching or the particular age - I've been doing this long enough now that I myself have changed and grown just as much as my children have.

 

Hunter - I haven't ventured onto this board much, either. I find it pretty overwhelming, especially with no hybrid format to condense it.

 

Nan

 

 

Noooo! Come baaaaaccckk! Please! This is just the place where we need the wisdom of those who have been doing this longer. I had such high hopes for this board when it was formed, since there are a lot of us newer homeschoolers who want to learn more than specific curricular details. We want to talk about oldschooling, how to teach, self-eduction, and pedagogy among other things. It seems so many of the posters who have a lot of wisdom to share in these areas are not posting anymore, and I miss them. :(

[Annabel Lee]

I didn't understand the point of copywork but trusted TWTM so blindly at first that we did it anyhow. BIG mistake. I had no idea I was supposed to be pointing things out & teaching them to my kids through the copywork. After all, the TMs & curriculum I had at the time didn't say to, and like I said, I followed things pretty much like a robot. I didn't get why we should do the copywork - for penmanship? So the kids will magically absorb the beautiful language and sentence structure by osmosis? My kids weren't absorbing it. I thought it wasn't working.

 

Anyhow... that was just an extra thought that popped into my head. I really began this post to say I sure didn't mean to intimidate anyone. I know the OP and others are happy doing their own thing, and others are happy doing a mix or a WTM-inspired style of hs. Even I have some WTM-inspired stuff going on in my hs now vs. exactly by the book, for some subjects. I was hoping to encourage those who might write it off prematurely with misconceptions or misunderstandings. My post was meant for those who wish they could but think they can't, but might end up gaining something by reading TWTM (even if following it closely doesn't ensue). I think we can all live comfortably together here on the boards. I've gleaned bits (and sometimes mountains!) of wisdom on these boards from posters on all sorts of home schooling paths. I'll echo the plea above for those that have such wisdom to share to come back! We need you!

[PachiSusan]

Someone (the OP I believe?) mentioned this earlier in the thread and I wonder if this is the place to ask it or if I should start a new thread. My introduction to Classical Education was Laura Berquist's Designing Your Own Classical Curriculum. I went to a few of her lectures and read some of the recommended materials.

 

The thought of collating everything I needed from so many different sources just made me think I could NEVER implement it.

 

She made a connection between Laura and SWB's philosophy and I wondered - can anyone tell me how you see the two philosophies differ? Are they the same philosophy but two different person's ideas of what books/ideas should be taught at what time?

[GoVanGogh]

No. And you know what? I think that is exactly why it worked for us. My children are... um... odd. A curriculum that sent us a 5th grade math book and a 5th grade reader and 5th grade writing assignments and 5th grade science would have been a total disaster. The science would have bored them to tears. One would have been bored with the math and the other incapable of doing it. Neither could have managed the writing but they would have been way past the reader. They would have flunked everything, just about, either because they passively resisted the low level or because they were incapable of doing the work. What I needed was a book that contained the whole k-12 in one book so I could see where we were supposed to be going and work wherever they were at the moment. TWTM allowed me to split the skills from the content and the input from the output, so they could do lower level written work for higher level reading. They could be reading Plato's Republic and at the same time, be learning how to write paragraphs with topic sentences. Instead of reading about a boy's struggles with a new teacher at school, they could be thinking about how Beowulf was going to deal with Grendel (sp?). Much more boy friendly. I really needed TWTM to be in the format that it was. And as I said in a previous post, it allowed us all to grow into it.

 

Nan

 

Your post was spot on regarding what I love about TWTM, especially the bolded part.

It lays out K-12 so I can see the progression and I can select from the levels as needed.

I have a child that reads and thinks on a very high level, but struggles to hold a pencil. TWTM book gave me the courage to explore Beowulf, Shakespeare and Horatius with him. It convinced me that we could tackle Latin together, even though we are still working through writing a paragraph.

TWTM has been anything but boring and tedious at our home. How can studying how the Egyptians mummified their dead be boring? How can reading about Julius Caesar, The French Revolution or the Trojan Horse be boring? History has come alive at our house, thanks to SWB's book.

 

As an aside:

DH knew we went to a convention last year because I wanted to see/hear SWB in person. I sat through every one of her lectures. I took one of my books for her to sign, but didn't find the courage to approach her.

I was telling DH about this thread during supper and he said, "So have you read the book?" :svengo: I own the first and third editions. Both are well-worn.

And - thanks to this thead - I am reminded that I must go read it again.

[Tracy]

 

And - thanks to this thead - I am reminded that I must go read it again.

 

My friend who is considering homeschooling asked me if she could borrow mine--just as I had decided that I need to read it again. :glare: